Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi friends, Have found this text in a satsang forum. Maybe you like it. Werner Q: Have you dropped the " I " after holding it? A: There is no I, not to be dropped, not to be hold. Q: Have you experienced the non-dual state? No subject or object. A: The non-dual state is no state. It is what we are. Q: Can you explain to me why you western satsang dudes claim lineage from Ramana? A: I don't know what " western satsang dudes " are. I don't claim anything. Ramana is what I am and what you are. To claim any lineage shows that you don't know who you really are. Q: Can you explain to me the question " Who am I? " A: What for? Ask this question and look who you are! No explanation necessary! Q: How do you people live mentally renounced (just awareness, witnessing thought), yet physically don't renounce (pleasure yourselves with thought)? A: You don't know yourself therefor you don't know anybody. Otherwise you would not ask such questions. A Q: Do you consider the lifestyles of Ramana and Ramakrishna to be superfluous? A: This question never arose to me. I'm not interested in lifestyles. Q: Do you consider yourself liberated? A: There is nobody who can be liberated or bound. These are just thoughts! Q: Do you still do sadhana? A: I'm doing nothing as I ever did nothing. Q: Do you see a use for sadhana after realization? A: There is no use in any effort. Nobody can reach what he already is. Q: Do you understand the difference between qualified non-dualism, non-dualism, and dualism? Do you see why they are categorized? A: People try to understand something. They don't look for the one who understands. It is silly to categorize to be liberated. Q: Do you believe in and know what god with form is? A: Another thought. Q: Do you believe the non-dual state can be achieved thru all the major religions? A: No. The non-state is what you are. There is no achievement. Q: Do you know what Jesus fought in the desert for 40 days? What voice did he hear? Some anthropomorphic deity, or thought? A: Why ask such questions! Look at your fights and especially who it is that is fighting. Q: Do you believe in avatars? A: Just another concept to avoid the truth which cannot be avoided. Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones spiritual attitude? A: Ask Ramakrishna. Q: Can you explain the allegory of using a thorn to remove a thorn? Do you see this as the real meaning of Ramakrishna saying he would die a million time to liberate one soul, or Ramana saying he would descend to the depths of hell to liberate one soul? A: My feeling is you do not have questions but want to palm something off onto the people you sent this mail to. Q: Do you see chaos as ignorance of infinite order? A: If the order is infinite there is no chaos. The thing is what *you* see, not what any other person may see. You have to look inside not outside. Q: Do you believe that mind evolves energy and energy evolves matter? That mind can exist without energy and matter, but matter and energy cannot exist without mind? A: No interest in such questions. Looks like what is the fist source of all this is the only question that matters. Q: Do you believe that the mark of the highest jivanmukta is unbroken awareness in wake, dream, and sleep? A: All there is is awareness. There is no Jivanmukta as there is no mark, no hierachy. Q: Do you believe that siddhis are a spontaneous manifestations of liberation. A: Siddhis are movements in mind. Q: Define liberation? A: Why should I define liberation? It is formless, endless, without frontiers and without beginning or end. What should or could I add to this what is your very self, what I am? Q: Will you answer these question? If not, why. A: Don't ask " why " but " who " ! Q: I promise I wont respond to the answers, just want to know the western satsang dude. A: That's what I feared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Hi friends, > Have found this text in a satsang forum. Maybe you like it. > > > Werner > > Q: Have you dropped the " I " after holding it? > > A: There is no I, not to be dropped, not to be hold. > > Q: Have you experienced the non-dual state? No subject or object. > > A: The non-dual state is no state. It is what we are. > > Q: Can you explain to me why you western satsang dudes claim lineage > from Ramana? > > A: I don't know what " western satsang dudes " are. I don't claim > anything. Ramana is what I am and what you are. > To claim any lineage shows that you don't know who you really are. > > Q: Can you explain to me the question " Who am I? " > > A: What for? Ask this question and look who you are! No explanation > necessary! > > Q: How do you people live mentally renounced (just awareness, > witnessing thought), yet physically don't renounce (pleasure > yourselves with thought)? > > A: You don't know yourself therefor you don't know anybody. Otherwise > you would not ask such questions. > > A > Q: Do you consider the lifestyles of Ramana and Ramakrishna to be > superfluous? > > A: This question never arose to me. I'm not interested in lifestyles. > > Q: Do you consider yourself liberated? > > A: There is nobody who can be liberated or bound. These are just > thoughts! > > Q: Do you still do sadhana? > > A: I'm doing nothing as I ever did nothing. > > Q: Do you see a use for sadhana after realization? > > A: There is no use in any effort. Nobody can reach what he already is. > > Q: Do you understand the difference between qualified non-dualism, > non-dualism, and dualism? Do you see why they are categorized? > > A: People try to understand something. They don't look for the one > who understands. It is silly to categorize to be liberated. > > Q: Do you believe in and know what god with form is? > > A: Another thought. > > Q: Do you believe the non-dual state can be achieved thru all the > major religions? > > A: No. The non-state is what you are. There is no achievement. > > Q: Do you know what Jesus fought in the desert for 40 days? What > voice did he hear? Some anthropomorphic deity, or thought? > > A: Why ask such questions! Look at your fights and especially who it > is that is fighting. > > Q: Do you believe in avatars? > > A: Just another concept to avoid the truth which cannot be avoided. > > Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones spiritual > attitude? > > A: Ask Ramakrishna. > > Q: Can you explain the allegory of using a thorn to remove a thorn? > Do you see this as the real meaning of Ramakrishna saying he would > die a million time to liberate one soul, or Ramana saying he would > descend to the depths of hell to liberate one soul? > > A: My feeling is you do not have questions but want to palm something > off onto the people you sent this mail to. > > Q: Do you see chaos as ignorance of infinite order? > > A: If the order is infinite there is no chaos. The thing is what > *you* see, not what any other person may see. You have to look inside > not outside. > > Q: Do you believe that mind evolves energy and energy evolves matter? > That mind can exist without energy and matter, but matter and energy > cannot exist without mind? > > A: No interest in such questions. > Looks like what is the fist source of all this is the only question > that matters. > > Q: Do you believe that the mark of the highest jivanmukta is unbroken > awareness in wake, dream, and sleep? > > A: All there is is awareness. There is no Jivanmukta as there is no > mark, no hierachy. > > Q: Do you believe that siddhis are a spontaneous manifestations of > liberation. > > A: Siddhis are movements in mind. > > Q: Define liberation? > > A: Why should I define liberation? It is formless, endless, without > frontiers and without beginning or end. What should or could I add to > this what is your very self, what I am? > > Q: Will you answer these question? If not, why. > > A: Don't ask " why " but " who " ! > > Q: I promise I wont respond to the answers, just want to know the > western satsang dude. > > A: That's what I feared. Hi Werner, is it possible for you to tell us who is the master responding to those questions? He is something! Well I like him! I liked a lot this one: Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones spiritual > attitude? > > A: Ask Ramakrishna. :0) wow! thanks! Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " Hi Alberto, Sorry, I don't know who that master is and I also can't ask the sender of this post because I am not a member of that forum. But if you like you could send a mail to the sysop who also was posting it and ask him directly: satsang - the title of that thread was " Interrogation " Werner <ilikezen2004> wrote: > Hi Werner, > is it possible for you to tell us who is the master responding to > those questions? He is something! Well I like him! I liked a lot > this one: > Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones spiritual > > attitude? > > > > A: Ask Ramakrishna. > :0) wow! > thanks! > Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 His answer was >>>The thing is what *you* see, not what any other person may see. You have to look inside not outside. hmmmmmm. And what does it matter? It really doesn't matter. If we look outside or inside it's all the same. It's not necessary to look 'just' inside if it's all the same. And if looking outside for others information gives a person comfort or understanding then that's fine too. In unification there is no separate state of inner and outer. When/if we choose to ponder on the words **I am That** we see a fusing between the outer and the inner, and they in fact become the same. There is no difference. The observer, and the observed are all an important part of the experience. One's not better or worse than the other. As with the inner and the outer, one's not better than the other. And they are not separate from each other. Most people can't see their own 'problems' because their too involved in themselves, but looking out at others and then bringing it back to themselves can help them see themselves more clearly. Therefore, it's easier for many to look outside and relate it to themselves inside. So, his answer only causes further distractions. Which is fine, if you want to be distracted. hmmmmm. People think sooooo much. The little brain is spinning round & round to figure it all out. It all winds around each other until it starts to confuse people's mind. Devendra wants to know what people have gained/learned from Nisargadatta's teachings,,, s/he is in fact " looking outside " . No wonder Devendra is confused. Of course people change things as they go along --> we decide what we want and we change it, as the universe is changing and creating because we are endlessly changing and creating. People want to learn how to manipulate a planet that has been given certain 'laws'. They want to bend it to their will and make their life something in which it is not presently. If we get back to the very basic root of it all then there is NO thing. Everything else is various forms of experience. That is all. No big mystery. We learn things & then we change our experience. As the buddhist teaching says: all is impermanent; that is the only permanent thing. So why be confused if people change their ideas as they go along? The universe is changing it's ideas or adding to it, and rearranging as it goes along...and we are that universe. It's our desire to manipulate consciousness within the human planet, and make it something different or better, which is what brings about all the struggle. If you want to experience something there will have to be a certain degree of separateness, or else all you experience is NO thing,,,which can be like looking at blank t.v. screen for a long period of time. If we really wanted freedom from suffering we wouldn't choose to experience this planet. But we do choose it...we are here... we don't want freedom from it, we want to learn to manipulate it and to 'enjoy' it... to enjoy/accept that part of " it/us/experience/creation " it's a fun experiment and many things may be gained by it. We want to pull ourselves out of human consciousness just enough to not be affected by it in the traditional way, but not too much, or we'll get sucked back into the origianl NO thing state of NO experience. Aaah, then the trick is to balance the fine line of observer/observed/experiencer. there are NO questions. That's only a distraction. So, why is it that if you genuinely detach and observe the struggle or experience it disappears? It's not necessarily because it wasn't there in the first place, well, yes that to a point, but more so because you have then learned to accept your experience in the present and more consciously decide you want to experience that same thing in a *different* way... that changes the conscious perception of it....so you may then sit back in the acceptance state, or the truth of it all, which is that " it " isn't really painful at all. aaah, then you can further decide to experience something completely different too, and that might be a degree of joy... or various other experiences. Now if you choose joy, then that is ...well, obviously, enjoyable....which is just the flip side of suffering really. So, you can experience enjoyment/acceptance or suffering or NO thing --> to varying degrees one way or another. Why else do you think the observer aspect needs the self aspect to some degree or another? What I have learned from " I am That " ~~~~~~~*********~~~~~~~~~ to laugh and enjoy/accept it all and not take it all so seriously...or to do the complete opposite and to cry, not enjoy and not accept and to take it all so seriously, and various degrees of it all. To create and choose based on experiences and then choose and create again. Not very mysterious after all. And the universe experiences as it learns whole knew depths of pain and suffering, just as it does when it experiences whole new depths of joy and ecstacy....well, it beats an endless eternity of nothing. in response to Devendra's question on Nasgardatta & on the following Question & Answers: -------------------------- Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > Hi friends, > > Have found this text in a satsang forum. Maybe you like it. > > > > > Werner > > > > > Q: Have you dropped the " I " after holding it? > > > > A: There is no I, not to be dropped, not to be hold. > > > > Q: Have you experienced the non-dual state? No subject or object. > > > > A: The non-dual state is no state. It is what we are. > > > > Q: Can you explain to me why you western satsang dudes claim > lineage > > from Ramana? > > > > A: I don't know what " western satsang dudes " are. I don't claim > > anything. Ramana is what I am and what you are. > > To claim any lineage shows that you don't know who you really are. > > > > Q: Can you explain to me the question " Who am I? " > > > > A: What for? Ask this question and look who you are! No > explanation > > necessary! > > > > Q: How do you people live mentally renounced (just awareness, > > witnessing thought), yet physically don't renounce (pleasure > > yourselves with thought)? > > > > A: You don't know yourself therefor you don't know anybody. > Otherwise > > you would not ask such questions. > > > > A > > Q: Do you consider the lifestyles of Ramana and Ramakrishna to be > > superfluous? > > > > A: This question never arose to me. I'm not interested in > lifestyles. > > > > Q: Do you consider yourself liberated? > > > > A: There is nobody who can be liberated or bound. These are just > > thoughts! > > > > Q: Do you still do sadhana? > > > > A: I'm doing nothing as I ever did nothing. > > > > Q: Do you see a use for sadhana after realization? > > > > A: There is no use in any effort. Nobody can reach what he already > is. > > > > Q: Do you understand the difference between qualified non- dualism, > > non-dualism, and dualism? Do you see why they are categorized? > > > > A: People try to understand something. They don't look for the one > > who understands. It is silly to categorize to be liberated. > > > > Q: Do you believe in and know what god with form is? > > > > A: Another thought. > > > > Q: Do you believe the non-dual state can be achieved thru all the > > major religions? > > > > A: No. The non-state is what you are. There is no achievement. > > > > Q: Do you know what Jesus fought in the desert for 40 days? What > > voice did he hear? Some anthropomorphic deity, or thought? > > > > A: Why ask such questions! Look at your fights and especially who > it > > is that is fighting. > > > > Q: Do you believe in avatars? > > > > A: Just another concept to avoid the truth which cannot be avoided. > > > > Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones > spiritual > > attitude? > > > > A: Ask Ramakrishna. > > > > Q: Can you explain the allegory of using a thorn to remove a > thorn? > > Do you see this as the real meaning of Ramakrishna saying he would > > die a million time to liberate one soul, or Ramana saying he would > > descend to the depths of hell to liberate one soul? > > > > A: My feeling is you do not have questions but want to palm > something > > off onto the people you sent this mail to. > > > > Q: Do you see chaos as ignorance of infinite order? > > > > A: If the order is infinite there is no chaos. The thing is what > > *you* see, not what any other person may see. You have to look > inside > > not outside. > > > > Q: Do you believe that mind evolves energy and energy evolves > matter? > > That mind can exist without energy and matter, but matter and > energy > > cannot exist without mind? > > > > A: No interest in such questions. > > Looks like what is the fist source of all this is the only > question > > that matters. > > > > Q: Do you believe that the mark of the highest jivanmukta is > unbroken > > awareness in wake, dream, and sleep? > > > > A: All there is is awareness. There is no Jivanmukta as there is > no > > mark, no hierachy. > > > > Q: Do you believe that siddhis are a spontaneous manifestations of > > liberation. > > > > A: Siddhis are movements in mind. > > > > Q: Define liberation? > > > > A: Why should I define liberation? It is formless, endless, > without > > frontiers and without beginning or end. What should or could I add > to > > this what is your very self, what I am? > > > > Q: Will you answer these question? If not, why. > > > > A: Don't ask " why " but " who " ! > > > > Q: I promise I wont respond to the answers, just want to know the > > western satsang dude. > > > > A: That's what I feared. > > > Hi Werner, > is it possible for you to tell us who is the master responding to > those questions? He is something! Well I like him! I liked a lot > this one: > Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones spiritual > > attitude? > > > > A: Ask Ramakrishna. > :0) wow! > thanks! > Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider " <laughterx8@h...> wrote: > > > His answer was >>>The thing is what *you* see, not what any other > person may see. You have to look inside not outside. > > hmmmmmm. And what does it matter? It really doesn't matter. If we > look outside or inside it's all the same. It's not necessary to > look 'just' inside if it's all the same. And if looking outside for > others information gives a person comfort or understanding then > that's fine too. In unification there is no separate state of inner > and outer. > > When/if we choose to ponder on the words **I am That** we see a > fusing between the outer and the inner, and they in fact become the > same. There is no difference. The observer, and the observed are > all an important part of the experience. One's not better or worse > than the other. As with the inner and the outer, one's not better > than the other. And they are not separate from each other. Most > people can't see their own 'problems' because their too involved in > themselves, but looking out at others and then bringing it back to > themselves can help them see themselves more clearly. Therefore, > it's easier for many to look outside and relate it to themselves > inside. So, his answer only causes further distractions. Which is > fine, if you want to be distracted. > > hmmmmm. People think sooooo much. The little brain is spinning > round & round to figure it all out. It all winds around each other > until it starts to confuse people's mind. > Devendra wants to know what people have gained/learned from > Nisargadatta's teachings,,, s/he is in fact " looking outside " . > No wonder Devendra is confused. Of course people change things as > they go along --> we decide what we want and we change it, as the > universe is changing and creating because we are endlessly changing > and creating. > > People want to learn how to manipulate a planet that has been > given certain 'laws'. They want to bend it to their will and make > their life something in which it is not presently. > > If we get back to the very basic root of it all then there is NO > thing. Everything else is various forms of experience. That is > all. No big mystery. We learn things & then we change our > experience. As the buddhist teaching says: all is impermanent; > that is the only permanent thing. > > So why be confused if people change their ideas as they go along? > The universe is changing it's ideas or adding to it, and rearranging > as it goes along...and we are that universe. > > It's our desire to manipulate consciousness within the human > planet, and make it something different or better, which is what > brings about all the struggle. If you want to experience something > there will have to be a certain degree of separateness, or else all > you experience is NO thing,,,which can be like looking at blank t.v. > screen for a long period of time. > > If we really wanted freedom from suffering we wouldn't choose to > experience this planet. But we do choose it...we are here... we > don't want freedom from it, we want to learn to manipulate it and > to 'enjoy' it... to enjoy/accept that part > of " it/us/experience/creation " it's a fun experiment and many things > may be gained by it. We want to pull ourselves out of human > consciousness just enough to not be affected by it in the > traditional way, but not too much, or we'll get sucked back into the > origianl NO thing state of NO experience. > Aaah, then the trick is to balance the fine line of > observer/observed/experiencer. > > there are NO questions. That's only a distraction. So, why is it > that if you genuinely detach and observe the struggle or experience > it disappears? It's not necessarily because it wasn't there in the > first place, well, yes that to a point, but more so because you > have then learned to accept your experience in the present and more > consciously decide you want to experience that same thing in a > *different* way... that changes the conscious perception of it....so > you may then sit back in the acceptance state, or the truth of it > all, which is that " it " isn't really painful at all. aaah, then you > can further decide to experience something completely different too, > and that might be a degree of joy... or various other experiences. > Now if you choose joy, then that is ...well, obviously, > enjoyable....which is just the flip side of suffering really. > So, you can experience enjoyment/acceptance or suffering or > NO thing --> to varying degrees one way or another. > > Why else do you think the observer aspect needs the self aspect to > some degree or another? > > What I have learned from " I am That " ~~~~~~~*********~~~~~~~~~ > > to laugh and enjoy/accept it all and not take it all so > seriously...or to do the complete opposite and to cry, not enjoy and > not accept and to take it all so seriously, and various degrees of > it all. > To create and choose based on experiences and then choose and create > again. Not very mysterious after all. > > And the universe experiences as it learns whole knew depths of pain > and suffering, just as it does when it experiences whole new depths > of joy and ecstacy....well, it beats an endless eternity of nothing. > > > > in response to Devendra's question on Nasgardatta & on the following > Question & Answers: > > -------------------------- > > > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > Hi friends, > > > Have found this text in a satsang forum. Maybe you like it. > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > Q: Have you dropped the " I " after holding it? > > > > > > A: There is no I, not to be dropped, not to be hold. > > > > > > Q: Have you experienced the non-dual state? No subject or object. > > > > > > A: The non-dual state is no state. It is what we are. > > > > > > Q: Can you explain to me why you western satsang dudes claim > > lineage > > > from Ramana? > > > > > > A: I don't know what " western satsang dudes " are. I don't claim > > > anything. Ramana is what I am and what you are. > > > To claim any lineage shows that you don't know who you really > are. > > > > > > Q: Can you explain to me the question " Who am I? " > > > > > > A: What for? Ask this question and look who you are! No > > explanation > > > necessary! > > > > > > Q: How do you people live mentally renounced (just awareness, > > > witnessing thought), yet physically don't renounce (pleasure > > > yourselves with thought)? > > > > > > A: You don't know yourself therefor you don't know anybody. > > Otherwise > > > you would not ask such questions. > > > > > > A > > > Q: Do you consider the lifestyles of Ramana and Ramakrishna to > be > > > superfluous? > > > > > > A: This question never arose to me. I'm not interested in > > lifestyles. > > > > > > Q: Do you consider yourself liberated? > > > > > > A: There is nobody who can be liberated or bound. These are just > > > thoughts! > > > > > > Q: Do you still do sadhana? > > > > > > A: I'm doing nothing as I ever did nothing. > > > > > > Q: Do you see a use for sadhana after realization? > > > > > > A: There is no use in any effort. Nobody can reach what he > already > > is. > > > > > > Q: Do you understand the difference between qualified non- > dualism, > > > non-dualism, and dualism? Do you see why they are categorized? > > > > > > A: People try to understand something. They don't look for the > one > > > who understands. It is silly to categorize to be liberated. > > > > > > Q: Do you believe in and know what god with form is? > > > > > > A: Another thought. > > > > > > Q: Do you believe the non-dual state can be achieved thru all > the > > > major religions? > > > > > > A: No. The non-state is what you are. There is no achievement. > > > > > > Q: Do you know what Jesus fought in the desert for 40 days? What > > > voice did he hear? Some anthropomorphic deity, or thought? > > > > > > A: Why ask such questions! Look at your fights and especially > who > > it > > > is that is fighting. > > > > > > Q: Do you believe in avatars? > > > > > > A: Just another concept to avoid the truth which cannot be > avoided. > > > > > > Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones > > spiritual > > > attitude? > > > > > > A: Ask Ramakrishna. > > > > > > Q: Can you explain the allegory of using a thorn to remove a > > thorn? > > > Do you see this as the real meaning of Ramakrishna saying he > would > > > die a million time to liberate one soul, or Ramana saying he > would > > > descend to the depths of hell to liberate one soul? > > > > > > A: My feeling is you do not have questions but want to palm > > something > > > off onto the people you sent this mail to. > > > > > > Q: Do you see chaos as ignorance of infinite order? > > > > > > A: If the order is infinite there is no chaos. The thing is what > > > *you* see, not what any other person may see. You have to look > > inside > > > not outside. > > > > > > Q: Do you believe that mind evolves energy and energy evolves > > matter? > > > That mind can exist without energy and matter, but matter and > > energy > > > cannot exist without mind? > > > > > > A: No interest in such questions. > > > Looks like what is the fist source of all this is the only > > question > > > that matters. > > > > > > Q: Do you believe that the mark of the highest jivanmukta is > > unbroken > > > awareness in wake, dream, and sleep? > > > > > > A: All there is is awareness. There is no Jivanmukta as there is > > no > > > mark, no hierachy. > > > > > > Q: Do you believe that siddhis are a spontaneous manifestations > of > > > liberation. > > > > > > A: Siddhis are movements in mind. > > > > > > Q: Define liberation? > > > > > > A: Why should I define liberation? It is formless, endless, > > without > > > frontiers and without beginning or end. What should or could I > add > > to > > > this what is your very self, what I am? > > > > > > Q: Will you answer these question? If not, why. > > > > > > A: Don't ask " why " but " who " ! > > > > > > Q: I promise I wont respond to the answers, just want to know > the > > > western satsang dude. > > > > > > A: That's what I feared. > > > > > > Hi Werner, > > is it possible for you to tell us who is the master responding to > > those questions? He is something! Well I like him! I liked a lot > > this one: > > Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones > spiritual > > > attitude? > > > > > > A: Ask Ramakrishna. > > :0) wow! > > thanks! > > Alberto, Hi Donny, Beautiful speach!! :0)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider " > <laughterx8@h...> wrote: > > > > > > His answer was >>>The thing is what *you* see, not what any other > > person may see. You have to look inside not outside. > > > > hmmmmmm. And what does it matter? It really doesn't matter. If > we > > look outside or inside it's all the same. It's not necessary to > > look 'just' inside if it's all the same. And if looking outside > for > > others information gives a person comfort or understanding then > > that's fine too. In unification there is no separate state of > inner > > and outer. > > > > When/if we choose to ponder on the words **I am That** we see a > > fusing between the outer and the inner, and they in fact become > the > > same. There is no difference. The observer, and the observed > are > > all an important part of the experience. One's not better or > worse > > than the other. As with the inner and the outer, one's not better > > than the other. And they are not separate from each other. Most > > people can't see their own 'problems' because their too involved > in > > themselves, but looking out at others and then bringing it back to > > themselves can help them see themselves more clearly. Therefore, > > it's easier for many to look outside and relate it to themselves > > inside. So, his answer only causes further distractions. Which > is > > fine, if you want to be distracted. > > > > hmmmmm. People think sooooo much. The little brain is spinning > > round & round to figure it all out. It all winds around each other > > until it starts to confuse people's mind. > > Devendra wants to know what people have gained/learned from > > Nisargadatta's teachings,,, s/he is in fact " looking outside " . > > No wonder Devendra is confused. Of course people change things > as > > they go along --> we decide what we want and we change it, as the > > universe is changing and creating because we are endlessly > changing > > and creating. > > > > People want to learn how to manipulate a planet that has been > > given certain 'laws'. They want to bend it to their will and make > > their life something in which it is not presently. > > > > If we get back to the very basic root of it all then there is NO > > thing. Everything else is various forms of experience. That is > > all. No big mystery. We learn things & then we change our > > experience. As the buddhist teaching says: all is impermanent; > > that is the only permanent thing. > > > > So why be confused if people change their ideas as they go along? > > The universe is changing it's ideas or adding to it, and > rearranging > > as it goes along...and we are that universe. > > > > It's our desire to manipulate consciousness within the human > > planet, and make it something different or better, which is what > > brings about all the struggle. If you want to experience something > > there will have to be a certain degree of separateness, or else > all > > you experience is NO thing,,,which can be like looking at blank > t.v. > > screen for a long period of time. > > > > If we really wanted freedom from suffering we wouldn't choose to > > experience this planet. But we do choose it...we are here... we > > don't want freedom from it, we want to learn to manipulate it and > > to 'enjoy' it... to enjoy/accept that part > > of " it/us/experience/creation " it's a fun experiment and many > things > > may be gained by it. We want to pull ourselves out of human > > consciousness just enough to not be affected by it in the > > traditional way, but not too much, or we'll get sucked back into > the > > origianl NO thing state of NO experience. > > Aaah, then the trick is to balance the fine line of > > observer/observed/experiencer. > > > > there are NO questions. That's only a distraction. So, why is it > > that if you genuinely detach and observe the struggle or > experience > > it disappears? It's not necessarily because it wasn't there in > the > > first place, well, yes that to a point, but more so because you > > have then learned to accept your experience in the present and > more > > consciously decide you want to experience that same thing in a > > *different* way... that changes the conscious perception of > it....so > > you may then sit back in the acceptance state, or the truth of it > > all, which is that " it " isn't really painful at all. aaah, then > you > > can further decide to experience something completely different > too, > > and that might be a degree of joy... or various other experiences. > > Now if you choose joy, then that is ...well, obviously, > > enjoyable....which is just the flip side of suffering really. > > So, you can experience enjoyment/acceptance or suffering or > > NO thing --> to varying degrees one way or another. > > > > Why else do you think the observer aspect needs the self aspect to > > some degree or another? > > > > What I have learned from " I am That " ~~~~~~~*********~~~~~~~~~ > > > > to laugh and enjoy/accept it all and not take it all so > > seriously...or to do the complete opposite and to cry, not enjoy > and > > not accept and to take it all so seriously, and various degrees of > > it all. > > To create and choose based on experiences and then choose and > create > > again. Not very mysterious after all. > > > > And the universe experiences as it learns whole knew depths of > pain > > and suffering, just as it does when it experiences whole new > depths > > of joy and ecstacy....well, it beats an endless eternity of > nothing. > > > > > > > > in response to Devendra's question on Nasgardatta & on the > following > > Question & Answers: > > > > -------------------------- > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > Hi friends, > > > > Have found this text in a satsang forum. Maybe you like it. > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > Q: Have you dropped the " I " after holding it? > > > > > > > > A: There is no I, not to be dropped, not to be hold. > > > > > > > > Q: Have you experienced the non-dual state? No subject or > object. > > > > > > > > A: The non-dual state is no state. It is what we are. > > > > > > > > Q: Can you explain to me why you western satsang dudes claim > > > lineage > > > > from Ramana? > > > > > > > > A: I don't know what " western satsang dudes " are. I don't > claim > > > > anything. Ramana is what I am and what you are. > > > > To claim any lineage shows that you don't know who you really > > are. > > > > > > > > Q: Can you explain to me the question " Who am I? " > > > > > > > > A: What for? Ask this question and look who you are! No > > > explanation > > > > necessary! > > > > > > > > Q: How do you people live mentally renounced (just awareness, > > > > witnessing thought), yet physically don't renounce (pleasure > > > > yourselves with thought)? > > > > > > > > A: You don't know yourself therefor you don't know anybody. > > > Otherwise > > > > you would not ask such questions. > > > > > > > > A > > > > Q: Do you consider the lifestyles of Ramana and Ramakrishna to > > be > > > > superfluous? > > > > > > > > A: This question never arose to me. I'm not interested in > > > lifestyles. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you consider yourself liberated? > > > > > > > > A: There is nobody who can be liberated or bound. These are > just > > > > thoughts! > > > > > > > > Q: Do you still do sadhana? > > > > > > > > A: I'm doing nothing as I ever did nothing. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you see a use for sadhana after realization? > > > > > > > > A: There is no use in any effort. Nobody can reach what he > > already > > > is. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you understand the difference between qualified non- > > dualism, > > > > non-dualism, and dualism? Do you see why they are categorized? > > > > > > > > A: People try to understand something. They don't look for the > > one > > > > who understands. It is silly to categorize to be liberated. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you believe in and know what god with form is? > > > > > > > > A: Another thought. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you believe the non-dual state can be achieved thru all > > the > > > > major religions? > > > > > > > > A: No. The non-state is what you are. There is no achievement. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you know what Jesus fought in the desert for 40 days? > What > > > > voice did he hear? Some anthropomorphic deity, or thought? > > > > > > > > A: Why ask such questions! Look at your fights and especially > > who > > > it > > > > is that is fighting. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you believe in avatars? > > > > > > > > A: Just another concept to avoid the truth which cannot be > > avoided. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones > > > spiritual > > > > attitude? > > > > > > > > A: Ask Ramakrishna. > > > > > > > > Q: Can you explain the allegory of using a thorn to remove a > > > thorn? > > > > Do you see this as the real meaning of Ramakrishna saying he > > would > > > > die a million time to liberate one soul, or Ramana saying he > > would > > > > descend to the depths of hell to liberate one soul? > > > > > > > > A: My feeling is you do not have questions but want to palm > > > something > > > > off onto the people you sent this mail to. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you see chaos as ignorance of infinite order? > > > > > > > > A: If the order is infinite there is no chaos. The thing is > what > > > > *you* see, not what any other person may see. You have to look > > > inside > > > > not outside. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you believe that mind evolves energy and energy evolves > > > matter? > > > > That mind can exist without energy and matter, but matter and > > > energy > > > > cannot exist without mind? > > > > > > > > A: No interest in such questions. > > > > Looks like what is the fist source of all this is the only > > > question > > > > that matters. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you believe that the mark of the highest jivanmukta is > > > unbroken > > > > awareness in wake, dream, and sleep? > > > > > > > > A: All there is is awareness. There is no Jivanmukta as there > is > > > no > > > > mark, no hierachy. > > > > > > > > Q: Do you believe that siddhis are a spontaneous > manifestations > > of > > > > liberation. > > > > > > > > A: Siddhis are movements in mind. > > > > > > > > Q: Define liberation? > > > > > > > > A: Why should I define liberation? It is formless, endless, > > > without > > > > frontiers and without beginning or end. What should or could I > > add > > > to > > > > this what is your very self, what I am? > > > > > > > > Q: Will you answer these question? If not, why. > > > > > > > > A: Don't ask " why " but " who " ! > > > > > > > > Q: I promise I wont respond to the answers, just want to know > > the > > > > western satsang dude. > > > > > > > > A: That's what I feared. > > > > > > > > > Hi Werner, > > > is it possible for you to tell us who is the master responding > to > > > those questions? He is something! Well I like him! I liked a lot > > > this one: > > > Q: Do you know why Ramakrishna said never to disturb ones > > spiritual > > > > attitude? > > > > > > > > A: Ask Ramakrishna. > > > :0) wow! > > > thanks! > > > Alberto, > > Hi Donny, > Beautiful speach!! :0)) ------------------------ hahahahahahaha big smilesssss :-D I think I'm going to enjoy myself here. I love your honesty and opinions. well, actually that, ahem, speach <cough,cough> was written in the wee hours last night, as my brain was launching into a session of monkeymind... Trying to put words to my thoughts in response to Devendra's question. As you can see,,, I'm no good with words. :-D I should likely stick to channelling my thoughts on giving praise to the almighty toaster. As Tombaru's favorite appliance is the trash compacter, I'd have to say with complete certainty that mine is the toaster... I just can't beat a good slice of toast with butter. My tastebuds enjoy it. You are all fun. :-) I'm glad I met you. aaaaah home at last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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