Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Let's be honest. You don't want what you seek. > At least not now, not right away. There is no excuse > not to find it. All you have to do is pay attention. > And we all know how to do that. When we are interested > in something, paying attention is easy. So we must > conclude, that you don't want it. > > If you would simply pay attention to this very moment, to > its full totality as presented in your perception, > it will be there: Your true nature, your original face. > But let's face it, that's not what you want. You want to > rummage in the dump heap of the past, or the mirage of > the future. This very moment is not enough to satisfy > your hunger. > > Pete Ok Pete........I'll try that....but if it works....how will I let you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Let's be honest. You don't want what you seek. > At least not now, not right away. ... Yes, to be honest, I am a real coward... At the moment I seem to have an arrangement with the wild tiger who is behind me. And I wonder what " I " " seek " ... Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Let's be honest. You don't want what you seek. > > At least not now, not right away. ... > > Yes, to be honest, I am a real coward... > > At the moment I seem to have an arrangement with the wild tiger who is > behind me. And I wonder what " I " " seek " ... > > Stefan Hi stephan, You have courage to affirm that you have an arrangement with the wild tiger. This is the part of the issue. If you don't get the transparency needed to know yourself, you will never know your self. You'll only try, as Pete said, to confirm to yourself of what you want to hear, or what you've decided life is? Ex; I could be as ugly as hell Ha ha ha! but in my definition of reality; I am sooooo beautiful. You see. That guy will never see the truth or Reality. He doesn't want to see reality... the truth is he is tooooo ugly!!! You know what I mean!! It takes courage and honesty to say... well I'm not that beautiful finaly. and with an opened mind. The guys accepts. This reality. I don't know what you mean when you write " I " but I understood it as I'm not sure what I want, simply! Your quest must be sincere if you want a sincere answer. I know someone in my school long time ago. That tought his was the best drummer in the world!!! he only played drum for few months and in his world, he truly, honestly, was and maybe is, and still, the best drummer in the world. That guy never had enough money to buy his own drum!!! Do you understand? HIS REALITY AND REALITY IS QUITE DIFFERENT! Such is the way! Don't let go your search!! Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Let's be honest. You don't want what you seek. > At least not now, not right away. There is no excuse > not to find it. All you have to do is pay attention. > And we all know how to do that. When we are interested > in something, paying attention is easy. So we must > conclude, that you don't want it. > > If you would simply pay attention to this very moment, to > its full totality as presented in your perception, > it will be there: Your true nature, your original face. > But let's face it, that's not what you want. You want to > rummage in the dump heap of the past, or the mirage of > the future. This very moment is not enough to satisfy > your hunger. > > Pete Hi Pete, Pete please hit those guy's with your stick of Wisdom. They don't want to understand??? :0))) just kidding!! I'm on your side Pete. We'll win this Holy war!!! ha ha ha!:0))) just kidding again (don't panic guys) ;0) alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hi Alberto, thank you for your loving and refreshing zen stick - welcome! So I try to be more transparent (LOL)... How is this possible in the internet? To tell the truth, I did not really make any arrangement, how can you make arrangements with wild tigers? A look in his eyes tells you that he could jump any moment!!! Actually I was referring to a parable, saying that the " seeker " one day comes to a point when behind him is a wild tiger and in front of him an abyss... thats how I often feel... plus that for some reason the tiger is still waiting... BTW the original parable is even better, as told by Buddha: " A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him. Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted! " Alberto, when I wrote: *And I wonder what " I " " seek " ...* I was thinking about the futility of any search and any searcher in such a situation. You are right, I dont know what I want, exactly now I am trying to go into negotiations with those black and white mice :-))) But, honestly, I completely had forgotten the strawberry... Greetings, Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Let's be honest. You don't want what you seek. > > At least not now, not right away. There is no excuse > > not to find it. All you have to do is pay attention. > > And we all know how to do that. When we are interested > > in something, paying attention is easy. So we must > > conclude, that you don't want it. > > > > If you would simply pay attention to this very moment, to > > its full totality as presented in your perception, > > it will be there: Your true nature, your original face. > > But let's face it, that's not what you want. You want to > > rummage in the dump heap of the past, or the mirage of > > the future. This very moment is not enough to satisfy > > your hunger. > > > > Pete > > > Ok Pete........I'll try that....but if it works....how will I let you know? Did anyone ever called you a pessimist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > Hi Alberto, > > thank you for your loving and refreshing zen stick - welcome! > > So I try to be more transparent (LOL)... How is this possible in the > internet? > > To tell the truth, I did not really make any arrangement, how can you > make arrangements with wild tigers? A look in his eyes tells you that > he could jump any moment!!! Actually I was referring to a parable, > saying that the " seeker " one day comes to a point when behind him is a > wild tiger and in front of him an abyss... thats how I often feel... > plus that for some reason the tiger is still waiting... > > BTW the original parable is even better, as told by Buddha: > > " A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the > tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of > a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at > him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, > another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him. Two > mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away > the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the > vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How > sweet it tasted! " > > Alberto, when I wrote: *And I wonder what " I " " seek " ...* I was > thinking about the futility of any search and any searcher in such a > situation. You are right, I dont know what I want, exactly now I am > trying to go into negotiations with those black and white mice :- ))) > But, honestly, I completely had forgotten the strawberry... > > Greetings, Stefan Oh!! Stefan it was you who post this. I just replied to you other posting without knowing it was you!! I want to talk to about what you just said. And this is the whole spiritual process. You wrote: You are right, I dont know what I want, exactly now I am trying to go into negotiations with those black and white mice :-))) That is exactely the point, You are exactly where any spiritual seeker whishes to be. and it is at war. To become a warrior you have to go to war. You know what I mean. To learn how to walk... well there is no choice there. You have to learn to walk! If you want to know who you are, truly are. You need to engage a process an awakening process. When the process is engaged it will gice you the strengh to continue the process. It is not always funny. Sometimes borring. Until when you are truly in the process. You encounter a tiger or if you are lucky... two tigers! ha ha ha! Their duty is to kill you . Well, kill your ego. They are going to eat you alive!!! hahaha! You are lucky my friend. That means you truly are in the way and more that that, it give you the chance to go beyond yourself, beyond the ego, beyond what you actually know about yourself. This is called the spiritual war. You must win it to continue in the Way. Most of the peaople when the arrive at this point of the search the are scared and they quit. they return in the illusion of their self and hide and start to invent theories about life truth God etc. just because they are too afraid to win the battle against them self. You are sooo lucky my friend! :0) I've done so many battles, that there is nothing left for me to say look here I'm here. The tigers ate my arms. The monkeys ate my legs, the lions ate the rest. But I said to my self. I'm still conscious and no one will take away my consciousness. There in the middle of no where. I saw a man. Gently he approched me and he spoke to me and he hit me hit hit and hit again. I begged the man to stop but I recognise that it was GOD. When God saw in my eyes that I knew it was him!!! .... well... with a loving smile he killed me. As I said in another posting, there I was with him and him with me. I understood his love. I understood. Well, of course part of the story is meta4 of course!!! :0) You said: the " seeker " one day comes to a point when behind him is a > wild tiger and in front of him an abyss... thats how I often feel... Jump into the abyss my friend, jump! I was talking about the abyss. and the abyss is you! Don't get afraid of yourself!!:0))) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > Hi Alberto, > > thank you for your loving and refreshing zen stick - welcome! > > So I try to be more transparent (LOL)... How is this possible in the > internet? > > To tell the truth, I did not really make any arrangement, how can you > make arrangements with wild tigers? A look in his eyes tells you that > he could jump any moment!!! Actually I was referring to a parable, > saying that the " seeker " one day comes to a point when behind him is a > wild tiger and in front of him an abyss... thats how I often feel... > plus that for some reason the tiger is still waiting... > > BTW the original parable is even better, as told by Buddha: > > " A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the > tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of > a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at > him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, > another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him. Two > mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away > the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the > vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How > sweet it tasted! " > > Alberto, when I wrote: *And I wonder what " I " " seek " ...* I was > thinking about the futility of any search and any searcher in such a > situation. You are right, I dont know what I want, exactly now I am > trying to go into negotiations with those black and white mice :-))) > But, honestly, I completely had forgotten the strawberry... > > Greetings, Stefan Very nice, Stephan. Talking about tigers, Ramana answered to a seeker who asked what he should do to realize, " Nothing, your head is already in the tiger's jaws. " I bet Toom likes that answer. But, there is, doing nothing, and there is, doing 'Nothing'. Plain doing nothing, will result in no thing, attentive not doing will reveal, 'Nothing'. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > wrote: > > > Let's be honest. You don't want what you seek. > > > At least not now, not right away. There is no excuse > > > not to find it. All you have to do is pay attention. > > > And we all know how to do that. When we are interested > > > in something, paying attention is easy. So we must > > > conclude, that you don't want it. > > > > > > If you would simply pay attention to this very moment, to > > > its full totality as presented in your perception, > > > it will be there: Your true nature, your original face. > > > But let's face it, that's not what you want. You want to > > > rummage in the dump heap of the past, or the mirage of > > > the future. This very moment is not enough to satisfy > > > your hunger. > > > > > > Pete > > > > > > Ok Pete........I'll try that....but if it works....how will I let > you know? > > > Did anyone ever called you a pessimist? I have been called many things.....but impressions are...impressions. Your dialog above is directed to an assumed entity. An entity who seeks....that is separate and somehow opposed to its own seeking. It is to this pseudo entity...that your words are directed. Not only is the autonomous entity implied but he is offered a bromide to cure his imaginary dilemma..... You offer a technique.......a process whereby this assumed entity can acquire his " original face " .....and suggest why he has failed in the past. Pete................There is no entity............He can't be fixed.... " He " is not seeking......He can never find " his original face " ...He has no true nature to find..........He can't pay attention to " this very moment " .......He can't DO anything............ That may sound pessimistic...............but the apprehension of That......is the end of all suffering...... toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 > > > Ok Pete........I'll try that....but if it works....how will I let > > you know? > > > > > > Did anyone ever called you a pessimist? > > > I have been called many things.....but impressions are...impressions. > > Your dialog above is directed to an assumed entity. > An entity who seeks....that is separate and somehow opposed to its own > seeking. > > It is to this pseudo entity...that your words are directed. > > Not only is the autonomous entity implied but he is offered a bromide to > cure his imaginary dilemma..... > > You offer a technique.......a process whereby this assumed entity can acquire > his " original face " .....and suggest why he has failed in the past. > > Pete................There is no entity............He can't be fixed.... " He " is not seeking......He can > never find " his original face " ...He has no true nature to find..........He can't pay attention to > " this very moment " .......He can't DO anything............ > > That may sound pessimistic...............but the apprehension of That......is the end of all > suffering...... P: Toom, your approach is defeatist , it preaches paralysis. And it's based on two misconceptions: 1) That there is no entity. Yes, there is a sort of entity. There is a feeling of being an entity. True, there is no physical entity, but the feeling is enough to block direct seeing. 2)That the feeling of being an entity is floating in space. The feeling happens within a brain. And although, the feeling itself can do nothing to bring direct seeing about, other brain centers can. It has been proven with Cat Scans that meditation changes the temporal lobe of meditators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > Hi Alberto, > > thank you for your loving and refreshing zen stick - welcome! > > So I try to be more transparent (LOL)... How is this possible in the > internet? > > To tell the truth, I did not really make any arrangement, how can you > make arrangements with wild tigers? A look in his eyes tells you that > he could jump any moment!!! Actually I was referring to a parable, > saying that the " seeker " one day comes to a point when behind him is a > wild tiger and in front of him an abyss... thats how I often feel... > plus that for some reason the tiger is still waiting... > > BTW the original parable is even better, as told by Buddha: > > " A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the > tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of > a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at > him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, > another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him. Two > mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away > the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the > vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How > sweet it tasted! " > > Alberto, when I wrote: *And I wonder what " I " " seek " ...* I was > thinking about the futility of any search and any searcher in such a > situation. You are right, I dont know what I want, exactly now I am > trying to go into negotiations with those black and white mice :- ))) > But, honestly, I completely had forgotten the strawberry... > > Greetings, Stefan --------------------------- Thanks so much for sharing the beautiful message of the tiger. Does the tiger not represent the very wonderful thing we run from? We're food for the tiger,,,the tiger needs us. I relate to the part of enjoying that last strawberry while running from the tiger. Tiger is your friend. It pushes you further into the abyss so you can eat and fatten up, so it can eat what you've eaten, otherwise the 2 of you would starve. aaah, those two mice, the dark side and the light side make the chase more interesting doesn't it? One of my animal guides is black panther (which is why I chose it as a picture profile) I'm sharing with you the white tiger medicine. White tiger is your friend...don't let those teeth scare you. Role: ~Seeker of Personal Truth ~ Lesson: Power of Conviction Element: Fire Wind: South, Recalling the ~Inner Child~ With Power and Strength, you glide through the night, silent as the mist that evaporates with the first rays of morning light Eyes, glowing with a blue fire that reflect both water and sky, you stare deeply into the Soul, leaving nothing unknown, for all is revealed before your penetrating gaze Keenest of all is the gaze you turn Inward, searching the depths of your restless spirit in a quest to know your Self The Hunt for Personal Truth is called .. . . and swiftly answered When the Truth is revealed, torn free from the grasp of the past, any fear felt is faced with stealthy observation and unrelenting determination, for Fear now is the Prey Divining Personal Truth Strength through Conviction Uniqueness Individuality Shadow & Light Power Divining Personal Truth The White Tiger`s hide of white with dark brown stripes provides near perfect camouflage during the hours of dawn and dusk, the hours during which he/she is most likely to hunt for food. Being thus endowed, the white of the tiger appears to the eyes of potential prey, to be innocuous areas of sunlight in the forest or jungle, while the stripes provide the illusion of shadow. Thus, it is believed that this is a spirit that dwells in both the world of darkness (physical realm) as well as that of the light (spirit realm). ***One who is blessed to have White Tiger walk beside them, is here with the Role to Seek Personal Truth. Yet in order to thoroughly understand and absorb the lessons and responsibilities of this role, White Tiger Soul need first acknowledge the shadows that exist ~Within.~ The shadows that are represented by the dark stripes of the White Tiger, may be in the form of beliefs or behaviors which bring pain either to the Self or to Others, fear turned inward, which ultimately manifests as hatred or anger, or Untruths which he/she has borne, either through the act of omission or the direct voicing of Untruth. Yet the challenge here is acknowledgment and the facing of Personal Truths free of judgment, self retribution or placing the " responsibility " onto another. Instead, true integration and acknowledgment of Personal Truths comes from accepting what is revealed with an open and understanding heart, while operating with the Higher Intent to change what is ultimately harmful, painful or no longer of service to the growth of the individual soul along its Life Path. Once this self-examination and soul level ~cleansing~ has been accomplished, White Tiger Soul may then become the gleaming example to his/her fellow two-leggeds of the gift and beauty of operating from Personal Truth.*** Strength through Conviction The male White Tiger can average ten feet long and weigh nearly 500 pounds, with the female being slightly smaller at an average of nine feet long and weighing in at around 300 pounds. Typical life span of the White Tiger varies between fifteen and twenty years, though some tigers have been known to live for as long as thirty years. This magnificent creature is a deadly predator with the ability to take down prey that ranges from small wild boar, to large buffalo. They can reach speeds of 35 miles an hour in pursuit of their prey, however they rely more upon their ability to stalk (being well camouflaged by their stripes) and their lethal pounce, than their ability to outrun their prey. It only takes one look at the beauty, grace and power of this wonderful animal to recognize that this is a being of incredible Strength. ***White Tiger is drawn to a soul that has a powerful sense of conviction and inner strength. Therefore, one who is blessed with this Power Totem will have strong ideas of what is " right " and " wrong, " and will stand by this personal belief system, even if that means leaping in the face of popular opinion. Naturally, this may either engender one to be an advocate of such issues as political and philosophical freedoms, or they may feel compelled to be a champion for the ~under-dogs~ of life. However, if one is operating from Contrary White Tiger Medicine, the impulse may lean toward a judgmental attitude to any individuals who do not share their thoughts or feelings on what constitutes " right " and " wrong " thoughts, actions or deeds, or they may be arrogant in the assumption that their opinion is the only " valid " one. Regardless of whether White Tiger Soul is operating from Higher Intent or Contrary Medicine, these individuals will be well known for their outspokenness and strength of conviction. They are here to teach us the importance of knowing ones inner values and beliefs, and to instruct us to align the way in which we walk our Path so it is in keeping with our belief system. When one chooses to operate from the higher vibration of White Tiger, an impassioned voice may be raised as an advocate for Balance and Acceptance, a Teacher of Fundamental Philosophy might be born, or a Leader may emerge to guide the way along the path of Universal Truth.*** Uniqueness The White Tiger is from the Bengal sub-species of Panthera Tigeris and its white coat, blue eyes and pink nose are formed from a double recessive gene, giving them a truly special and wonderfully unique appearance. All tigers, including the White Tiger, are not typical of their other feline cousins in that they not only tolerate water, they actually enjoy swimming, playing and indulging themselves in ponds and streams and will spend a good deal of the hot days in frolicking in and around water sources. Sadly, this Tiger is on the Endangered Species list, warning us that this magnificent and beautiful creature is threatened with complete extinction unless we, as guardians of the Earth Mother and all the dwell upon Her, act consciously to preserve this awesome animal. ***Much like their Power Totem, White Tiger Souls are individuals in every sense of the word and pride themselves upon standing apart from the group. It is this inner drive to be recognized for their unique contributions that will often propel he/she who walks with White Tiger, into positions of public attention and recognition. Consequently, many leaders who have elicited sweeping changes and reformation have had the blessing of White Tiger. White Tiger reminds us that although we are All One, it is the specialized contribution of the Individual that begins the spark that later becomes the blazing torch that illuminates the night, growing brighter with each individual spirit that contributes their own unique Light. If White Tiger manifests the Contrary Medicine, then he/she may be the proverbial rebel without a cause, tossing a stone into a calm lake without the intent of a Higher Good being served and merely to watch the ripples spread outward. Yet when the powerful and highly individualized energies so abundant with this Totem can be harnessed and channeled in a constructive manner, then their gift of Uniqueness can spread lasting changes that benefit the Whole. The resulting manifestation is as a brilliant star in a night sky beckoning all to partake in the beauty and fire of Life.*** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 > P: Toom, your approach is defeatist , it preaches paralysis. > And it's based on two misconceptions: > > 1) That there is no entity. Yes, there is a sort of entity. > There is a feeling of being an entity. True, there is no > physical entity, but the feeling is enough to block direct > seeing. By whom is this " direct seeing " experienced? > > 2)That the feeling of being an entity is floating in space. > The feeling happens within a brain. And although, the > feeling itself can do nothing to bring direct seeing about, > other brain centers can. The brain is a machine....It can " do " nothing. > It has been proven with Cat Scans that meditation changes the > temporal lobe of meditators. LSD can also change the temporal lobe.....so can a sharp blow to the head. The entity could meditate forever and be no closer... to its own concept of realization....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > P: Toom, your approach is defeatist , it preaches paralysis. > > And it's based on two misconceptions: > > > > 1) That there is no entity. Yes, there is a sort of entity. > > There is a feeling of being an entity. True, there is no > > physical entity, but the feeling is enough to block direct > > seeing. > > > By whom is this " direct seeing " experienced? > > > > > > > 2)That the feeling of being an entity is floating in space. > > The feeling happens within a brain. And although, the > > feeling itself can do nothing to bring direct seeing about, > > other brain centers can. > > The brain is a machine....It can " do " nothing. > > > It has been proven with Cat Scans that meditation changes the > > temporal lobe of meditators. > > > LSD can also change the temporal lobe.....so can a sharp blow to the head. > > The entity could meditate forever and be no closer... to its own concept of realization....... **************************************** Hi toombaru if you permit! You are not totally wrong! of course not. But when you take position as you are doing... well you are paralysed!! You said: The brain is a machine....It can " do " nothing. Well it's actually posting your messages, no? Who was it. The computer, your hand, your brain, your friend? Someone sent it , no? you said also:By whom is this " direct seeing " experienced? the answer is by " you " The one you are trying to ignore!! :0) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider " <laughterx8@h...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> > wrote: > > Hi Alberto, > > > > thank you for your loving and refreshing zen stick - welcome! > > > > So I try to be more transparent (LOL)... How is this possible in > the > > internet? > > > > To tell the truth, I did not really make any arrangement, how can > you > > make arrangements with wild tigers? A look in his eyes tells you > that > > he could jump any moment!!! Actually I was referring to a parable, > > saying that the " seeker " one day comes to a point when behind him > is a > > wild tiger and in front of him an abyss... thats how I often > feel... > > plus that for some reason the tiger is still waiting... > > > > BTW the original parable is even better, as told by Buddha: > > > > " A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the > > tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root > of > > a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger > sniffed at > > him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, > > another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him. > Two > > mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw > away > > the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the > > vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How > > sweet it tasted! " > > > > Alberto, when I wrote: *And I wonder what " I " " seek " ...* I was > > thinking about the futility of any search and any searcher in such > a > > situation. You are right, I dont know what I want, exactly now I am > > trying to go into negotiations with those black and white mice :- > ))) > > But, honestly, I completely had forgotten the strawberry... > > > > Greetings, Stefan > > --------------------------- > > Thanks so much for sharing the beautiful message of the tiger. Does > the tiger not represent the very wonderful thing we run from? We're > food for the tiger,,,the tiger needs us. I relate to the part of > enjoying that last strawberry while running from the tiger. > > Tiger is your friend. It pushes you further into the abyss so you > can eat and fatten up, so it can eat what you've eaten, otherwise > the 2 of you would starve. aaah, those two mice, the dark side and > the light side make the chase more interesting doesn't it? > > One of my animal guides is black panther (which is why I chose it > as a picture profile) > > I'm sharing with you the white tiger medicine. White tiger is your > friend...don't let those teeth scare you. > > > Role: ~Seeker of Personal Truth ~ > Lesson: Power of Conviction > Element: Fire > Wind: South, Recalling the ~Inner Child~ > With Power and Strength, you glide through the night, > silent as the mist that evaporates with > the first rays of morning light > Eyes, glowing with a blue fire that reflect both water and sky, > you stare deeply into the Soul, leaving nothing unknown, > for all is revealed before your penetrating gaze > Keenest of all is the gaze you turn Inward, > searching the depths of your restless spirit > in a quest to know your Self > The Hunt for Personal Truth is called > . . . and swiftly answered > When the Truth is revealed, torn free from the grasp of the past, > any fear felt is faced with stealthy observation > and unrelenting determination, > for Fear now is the Prey > > Divining Personal Truth Strength through Conviction > Uniqueness Individuality > Shadow & Light > Power > > Divining Personal Truth > The White Tiger`s hide of white with dark brown stripes provides > near perfect camouflage during the hours of dawn and dusk, the hours > during which he/she is most likely to hunt for food. Being thus > endowed, the white of the tiger appears to the eyes of potential > prey, to be innocuous areas of sunlight in the forest or jungle, > while the stripes provide the illusion of shadow. Thus, it is > believed that this is a spirit that dwells in both the world of > darkness (physical realm) as well as that of the light (spirit > realm). > ***One who is blessed to have White Tiger walk beside them, is here > with the Role to Seek Personal Truth. Yet in order to thoroughly > understand and absorb the lessons and responsibilities of this role, > White Tiger Soul need first acknowledge the shadows that exist > ~Within.~ > The shadows that are represented by the dark stripes of the White > Tiger, may be in the form of beliefs or behaviors which bring pain > either to the Self or to Others, fear turned inward, which > ultimately manifests as hatred or anger, or Untruths which he/she > has borne, either through the act of omission or the direct voicing > of Untruth. > Yet the challenge here is acknowledgment and the facing of Personal > Truths free of judgment, self retribution or placing > the " responsibility " onto another. Instead, true integration and > acknowledgment of Personal Truths comes from accepting what is > revealed with an open and understanding heart, while operating with > the Higher Intent to change what is ultimately harmful, painful or > no longer of service to the growth of the individual soul along its > Life Path. > Once this self-examination and soul level ~cleansing~ has been > accomplished, White Tiger Soul may then become the gleaming example > to his/her fellow two-leggeds of the gift and beauty of operating > from Personal Truth.*** > > > Strength through Conviction > The male White Tiger can average ten feet long and weigh nearly 500 > pounds, with the female being slightly smaller at an average of nine > feet long and weighing in at around 300 pounds. Typical life span > of the White Tiger varies between fifteen and twenty years, though > some tigers have been known to live for as long as thirty years. > This magnificent creature is a deadly predator with the ability to > take down prey that ranges from small wild boar, to large buffalo. > They can reach speeds of 35 miles an hour in pursuit of their prey, > however they rely more upon their ability to stalk (being well > camouflaged by their stripes) and their lethal pounce, than their > ability to outrun their prey. > It only takes one look at the beauty, grace and power of this > wonderful animal to recognize that this is a being of incredible > Strength. > ***White Tiger is drawn to a soul that has a powerful sense of > conviction and inner strength. Therefore, one who is blessed with > this Power Totem will have strong ideas of what is " right " > and " wrong, " and will stand by this personal belief system, even if > that means leaping in the face of popular opinion. > Naturally, this may either engender one to be an advocate of such > issues as political and philosophical freedoms, or they may feel > compelled to be a champion for the ~under-dogs~ of life. However, > if one is operating from Contrary White Tiger Medicine, the impulse > may lean toward a judgmental attitude to any individuals who do not > share their thoughts or feelings on what constitutes " right " > and " wrong " thoughts, actions or deeds, or they may be arrogant in > the assumption that their opinion is the only " valid " one. > Regardless of whether White Tiger Soul is operating from Higher > Intent or Contrary Medicine, these individuals will be well known > for their outspokenness and strength of conviction. They are here > to teach us the importance of knowing ones inner values and beliefs, > and to instruct us to align the way in which we walk our Path so it > is in keeping with our belief system. > When one chooses to operate from the higher vibration of White > Tiger, an impassioned voice may be raised as an advocate for Balance > and Acceptance, a Teacher of Fundamental Philosophy might be born, > or a Leader may emerge to guide the way along the path of Universal > Truth.*** > > > Uniqueness > > > The White Tiger is from the Bengal sub-species of Panthera Tigeris > and its white coat, blue eyes and pink nose are formed from a double > recessive gene, giving them a truly special and wonderfully unique > appearance. > All tigers, including the White Tiger, are not typical of their > other feline cousins in that they not only tolerate water, they > actually enjoy swimming, playing and indulging themselves in ponds > and streams and will spend a good deal of the hot days in frolicking > in and around water sources. > Sadly, this Tiger is on the Endangered Species list, warning us that > this magnificent and beautiful creature is threatened with complete > extinction unless we, as guardians of the Earth Mother and all the > dwell upon Her, act consciously to preserve this awesome animal. > ***Much like their Power Totem, White Tiger Souls are individuals in > every sense of the word and pride themselves upon standing apart > from the group. It is this inner drive to be recognized for their > unique contributions that will often propel he/she who walks with > White Tiger, into positions of public attention and recognition. > Consequently, many leaders who have elicited sweeping changes and > reformation have had the blessing of White Tiger. > White Tiger reminds us that although we are All One, it is the > specialized contribution of the Individual that begins the spark > that later becomes the blazing torch that illuminates the night, > growing brighter with each individual spirit that contributes their > own unique Light. > If White Tiger manifests the Contrary Medicine, then he/she may be > the proverbial rebel without a cause, tossing a stone into a calm > lake without the intent of a Higher Good being served and merely to > watch the ripples spread outward. > Yet when the powerful and highly individualized energies so abundant > with this Totem can be harnessed and channeled in a constructive > manner, then their gift of Uniqueness can spread lasting changes > that benefit the Whole. The resulting manifestation is as a > brilliant star in a night sky beckoning all to partake in the beauty > and fire of Life.*** ****************************************************** Hi Donny, can you write you name at the bottom of your speech! I always have to search who wrote what??? :0))) I like what you wrote! That's true and very nice. :0)) Two minutes later I forgot every single word you wrote! the fish, P.S. Could someone help Toombaru! He thinks he is a shoe!! :0))) (joking) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > P: Toom, your approach is defeatist , it preaches paralysis. > > And it's based on two misconceptions: > > > > 1) That there is no entity. Yes, there is a sort of entity. > > There is a feeling of being an entity. True, there is no > > physical entity, but the feeling is enough to block direct > > seeing. > > >T: By whom is this " direct seeing " experienced? P:I'm not going to answer your question with a question, but, what has this theory of yours yield for 'you?' And don't get lost in grammar, and pronouns. If you answer that, the theory was verified by " your " 'realization.' Then, I'll shut up, after all no one can argue with success. > > 2)That the feeling of being an entity is floating in space. > > The feeling happens within a brain. And although, the > > feeling itself can do nothing to bring direct seeing about, other brain centers can. > >T: The brain is a machine....It can " do " nothing. P: As I told you before, this is your very peculiar prejudice, and it's not supported either by science, common sense, nor daily life. I can't help if you choose to reject two centuries of neurological discoveries, but, you will have to materialize a million dollar on my desk, before I believe you're right. So as Mark always says, send money. > > > P: It has been proven with Cat Scans that meditation changes the > > temporal lobe of meditators. > > >T: LSD can also change the temporal lobe.....so can a sharp blow to the head. P:Granted! what's your point? > > T: The entity could meditate forever and be no closer... to its own concept of realization....... P: Granted again! But they could believe what you believe and do nothing ,and be no closer, either. So, again, your point is? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider " > <laughterx8@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> > > wrote: > > > Hi Alberto, > > > > > > thank you for your loving and refreshing zen stick - welcome! > > > > > > So I try to be more transparent (LOL)... How is this possible in > > the > > > internet? > > > > > > To tell the truth, I did not really make any arrangement, how > can > > you > > > make arrangements with wild tigers? A look in his eyes tells you > > that > > > he could jump any moment!!! Actually I was referring to a > parable, > > > saying that the " seeker " one day comes to a point when behind > him > > is a > > > wild tiger and in front of him an abyss... thats how I often > > feel... > > > plus that for some reason the tiger is still waiting... > > > > > > BTW the original parable is even better, as told by Buddha: > > > > > > " A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, > the > > > tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the > root > > of > > > a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger > > sniffed at > > > him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far > below, > > > another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained > him. > > Two > > > mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw > > away > > > the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping > the > > > vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How > > > sweet it tasted! " > > > > > > Alberto, when I wrote: *And I wonder what " I " " seek " ...* I was > > > thinking about the futility of any search and any searcher in > such > > a > > > situation. You are right, I dont know what I want, exactly now I > am > > > trying to go into negotiations with those black and white mice :- > > ))) > > > But, honestly, I completely had forgotten the strawberry... > > > > > > Greetings, Stefan > > > > --------------------------- > > > > Thanks so much for sharing the beautiful message of the tiger. > Does > > the tiger not represent the very wonderful thing we run from? > We're > > food for the tiger,,,the tiger needs us. I relate to the part of > > enjoying that last strawberry while running from the tiger. > > > > Tiger is your friend. It pushes you further into the abyss so you > > can eat and fatten up, so it can eat what you've eaten, otherwise > > the 2 of you would starve. aaah, those two mice, the dark side and > > the light side make the chase more interesting doesn't it? > > > > One of my animal guides is black panther (which is why I chose it > > as a picture profile) > > > > I'm sharing with you the white tiger medicine. White tiger is > your > > friend...don't let those teeth scare you. > > > > > > Role: ~Seeker of Personal Truth ~ > > Lesson: Power of Conviction > > Element: Fire > > Wind: South, Recalling the ~Inner Child~ > > With Power and Strength, you glide through the night, > > silent as the mist that evaporates with > > the first rays of morning light > > Eyes, glowing with a blue fire that reflect both water and sky, > > you stare deeply into the Soul, leaving nothing unknown, > > for all is revealed before your penetrating gaze > > Keenest of all is the gaze you turn Inward, > > searching the depths of your restless spirit > > in a quest to know your Self > > The Hunt for Personal Truth is called > > . . . and swiftly answered > > When the Truth is revealed, torn free from the grasp of the past, > > any fear felt is faced with stealthy observation > > and unrelenting determination, > > for Fear now is the Prey > > > > Divining Personal Truth Strength through Conviction > > Uniqueness Individuality > > Shadow & Light > > Power > > > > Divining Personal Truth > > The White Tiger`s hide of white with dark brown stripes provides > > near perfect camouflage during the hours of dawn and dusk, the > hours > > during which he/she is most likely to hunt for food. Being thus > > endowed, the white of the tiger appears to the eyes of potential > > prey, to be innocuous areas of sunlight in the forest or jungle, > > while the stripes provide the illusion of shadow. Thus, it is > > believed that this is a spirit that dwells in both the world of > > darkness (physical realm) as well as that of the light (spirit > > realm). > > ***One who is blessed to have White Tiger walk beside them, is > here > > with the Role to Seek Personal Truth. Yet in order to thoroughly > > understand and absorb the lessons and responsibilities of this > role, > > White Tiger Soul need first acknowledge the shadows that exist > > ~Within.~ > > The shadows that are represented by the dark stripes of the White > > Tiger, may be in the form of beliefs or behaviors which bring pain > > either to the Self or to Others, fear turned inward, which > > ultimately manifests as hatred or anger, or Untruths which he/she > > has borne, either through the act of omission or the direct > voicing > > of Untruth. > > Yet the challenge here is acknowledgment and the facing of > Personal > > Truths free of judgment, self retribution or placing > > the " responsibility " onto another. Instead, true integration and > > acknowledgment of Personal Truths comes from accepting what is > > revealed with an open and understanding heart, while operating > with > > the Higher Intent to change what is ultimately harmful, painful or > > no longer of service to the growth of the individual soul along > its > > Life Path. > > Once this self-examination and soul level ~cleansing~ has been > > accomplished, White Tiger Soul may then become the gleaming > example > > to his/her fellow two-leggeds of the gift and beauty of operating > > from Personal Truth.*** > > > > > > Strength through Conviction > > The male White Tiger can average ten feet long and weigh nearly > 500 > > pounds, with the female being slightly smaller at an average of > nine > > feet long and weighing in at around 300 pounds. Typical life span > > of the White Tiger varies between fifteen and twenty years, though > > some tigers have been known to live for as long as thirty years. > > This magnificent creature is a deadly predator with the ability to > > take down prey that ranges from small wild boar, to large > buffalo. > > They can reach speeds of 35 miles an hour in pursuit of their > prey, > > however they rely more upon their ability to stalk (being well > > camouflaged by their stripes) and their lethal pounce, than their > > ability to outrun their prey. > > It only takes one look at the beauty, grace and power of this > > wonderful animal to recognize that this is a being of incredible > > Strength. > > ***White Tiger is drawn to a soul that has a powerful sense of > > conviction and inner strength. Therefore, one who is blessed with > > this Power Totem will have strong ideas of what is " right " > > and " wrong, " and will stand by this personal belief system, even > if > > that means leaping in the face of popular opinion. > > Naturally, this may either engender one to be an advocate of such > > issues as political and philosophical freedoms, or they may feel > > compelled to be a champion for the ~under-dogs~ of life. However, > > if one is operating from Contrary White Tiger Medicine, the > impulse > > may lean toward a judgmental attitude to any individuals who do > not > > share their thoughts or feelings on what constitutes " right " > > and " wrong " thoughts, actions or deeds, or they may be arrogant in > > the assumption that their opinion is the only " valid " one. > > Regardless of whether White Tiger Soul is operating from Higher > > Intent or Contrary Medicine, these individuals will be well known > > for their outspokenness and strength of conviction. They are here > > to teach us the importance of knowing ones inner values and > beliefs, > > and to instruct us to align the way in which we walk our Path so > it > > is in keeping with our belief system. > > When one chooses to operate from the higher vibration of White > > Tiger, an impassioned voice may be raised as an advocate for > Balance > > and Acceptance, a Teacher of Fundamental Philosophy might be born, > > or a Leader may emerge to guide the way along the path of > Universal > > Truth.*** > > > > > > Uniqueness > > > > > > The White Tiger is from the Bengal sub-species of Panthera Tigeris > > and its white coat, blue eyes and pink nose are formed from a > double > > recessive gene, giving them a truly special and wonderfully unique > > appearance. > > All tigers, including the White Tiger, are not typical of their > > other feline cousins in that they not only tolerate water, they > > actually enjoy swimming, playing and indulging themselves in ponds > > and streams and will spend a good deal of the hot days in > frolicking > > in and around water sources. > > Sadly, this Tiger is on the Endangered Species list, warning us > that > > this magnificent and beautiful creature is threatened with > complete > > extinction unless we, as guardians of the Earth Mother and all the > > dwell upon Her, act consciously to preserve this awesome animal. > > ***Much like their Power Totem, White Tiger Souls are individuals > in > > every sense of the word and pride themselves upon standing apart > > from the group. It is this inner drive to be recognized for their > > unique contributions that will often propel he/she who walks with > > White Tiger, into positions of public attention and recognition. > > Consequently, many leaders who have elicited sweeping changes and > > reformation have had the blessing of White Tiger. > > White Tiger reminds us that although we are All One, it is the > > specialized contribution of the Individual that begins the spark > > that later becomes the blazing torch that illuminates the night, > > growing brighter with each individual spirit that contributes > their > > own unique Light. > > If White Tiger manifests the Contrary Medicine, then he/she may be > > the proverbial rebel without a cause, tossing a stone into a calm > > lake without the intent of a Higher Good being served and merely > to > > watch the ripples spread outward. > > Yet when the powerful and highly individualized energies so > abundant > > with this Totem can be harnessed and channeled in a constructive > > manner, then their gift of Uniqueness can spread lasting changes > > that benefit the Whole. The resulting manifestation is as a > > brilliant star in a night sky beckoning all to partake in the > beauty > > and fire of Life.*** > ****************************************************** > > Hi Donny, can you write you name at the bottom of your speech! I > always have to search who wrote what??? :0))) > > I like what you wrote! That's true and very nice. :0)) > Two minutes later I forgot every single word you wrote! > > the fish, > P.S. > Could someone help Toombaru! He thinks he is a shoe!! :0))) (joking) > Alberto, -------------------- hey, hi, Alberto, you are so cute, Toombaru thinks he is a shoe and you say you are a fish. I could hug you both, you make me smile. Oh, thankyou for the suggestion Alberto, I'll try to remember to put my name on the bottom of my messages,,,,If I can,,,, I'm a bit of a fish too :-D Actually, I was going to add to my above post, and sign off, but I'm just learning how to figure this board out and hit send instead of edit, so it got sent the way it was. It's taking a while for me to find the way of how to use this board. I like the honesty and openess here. I never know when I may need to call on someone in helping decipher some of the interesting observations that run through my little head. This seems to be a good place to do that. I feel a lot of love here. I feel such a kinship with you all here that I haven't felt for a very long time. In the future I may posts some ideas for you all to help me as I learn, and in my case I appropriately use the word learn, to understand this adventure of being a woman on planet earth. You think thoughts are an interesting experience,,, try living with female horomones that swing faster than the pendulum on Big Ben. I've been more concerned with accepting feelings and coming to terms with feelings as part of my reality and part of my human experience/experiment. Interestingly enough, when I did this they subsided from being all over the place, to much more mellow and balanced, or even. I have come to see that thinking thoughts is the same way. The more I accept them with an honesty the more they kind of disappear,,, or rather become more mellow or balanced (as opposed to chaotic) The more I tried to push thoughts/feelings away, thinking that I was pushing away the non-reality,,,I saw that I was only engaging in some kind of fight, or war. The more I realized that I could embrace/accept what was going on, there was no war. If no one fights there is no war. So, there is no thought or feeling to think or not to think about concerning myself over. The more I thought about manipulating the process the more war ensued. Now I look at just enjoying/accepting the unusual process called human life. I believe the altered/separated state has been pulled as far away from the 'whole' state, and this state(human) has been left 'alone' so to speak, and can't be experimented with any further or people's separation will lead them to an insane zombie like nothing state which can't really go any further. I loved the way someone on the board described it~~ it is as if the universe is looking up it's skirt. So here we all sit, taking in the data learned by the experimentation. It is a beautiful moment. We have all come to finish that which we started a very long time ago. with much love, ~*~ Donny ~*~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > P: Toom, your approach is defeatist , it preaches paralysis. > > > And it's based on two misconceptions: > > > > > > 1) That there is no entity. Yes, there is a sort of entity. > > > There is a feeling of being an entity. True, there is no > > > physical entity, but the feeling is enough to block direct > > > seeing. > > > > > >T: By whom is this " direct seeing " experienced? > > P:I'm not going to answer your question with a question, but, > what has this theory of yours yield for 'you?' And don't get lost > in grammar, and pronouns. If you answer that, the theory was verified > by " your " 'realization.' Then, I'll shut up, after all no one > can argue with success. Again you allude to an entity that can somehow benefit itself through its own actions. It is this phantom.... this zombee....this house of mirrors.....that so tenaciously clings to the idea of self-improvement.....it holds on to the concept that one day it will become self realized.... and that somehow.......someway....it will find the missing part of its self.......and once again .....be whole. Well.....that ain't gonna happen. Oh....I know that this is all very depressing to the identified entity.....as well it should be... This " theory " can yield " me " nothing.........for the entity....there is no hope......It is destined to disappear back into the flotsam from which it emerged......any gain...any improvements.........will also disappear. > > > > 2)That the feeling of being an entity is floating in space. > > > The feeling happens within a brain. And although, the > > > feeling itself can do nothing to bring direct seeing > about, other brain centers can. > > > >T: The brain is a machine....It can " do " nothing. > > P: As I told you before, this is your very peculiar prejudice, and > it's not supported either by science, common sense, nor daily life. The ability of " science " to grasp reality.....is always suspect. > I can't help if you choose to reject two centuries of neurological > discoveries, but, you will have to materialize a million dollar on > my desk, before I believe you're right. So as Mark always says, > send money. > > > > > P: It has been proven with Cat Scans that meditation changes the > > > temporal lobe of meditators. > > > > > >T: LSD can also change the temporal lobe.....so can a sharp blow to > the head. > > P:Granted! what's your point? > The point is: Because it can be documented that meditation changes brain waves.....one cannot necessarily conclude anything beneficial has occured. It can be documented that there are changes in the temporal lobe....when one sees a cat....... > > > > T: The entity could meditate forever and be no closer... > to its own concept of realization....... > > P: Granted again! But they could believe what you believe and do > nothing ,and be no closer, either. So, again, your point is? I never said to do nothing.........I said.... you.... can do nothing. There is a big difference. and...............I'm afraid that you can't get any closer.......... toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 > >T: Again you allude to an entity that can somehow benefit itself through its > own actions. > P: I told you not to get lost in pronouns. There is no entity, just grammar. Do those words which appeared on my screen above the name Toombaro, come from realization or not? Does that bypass your pronoun phobia? Correct nondual grammar is not realization. Getting the right nondual concepts in line is not liberation. You know? >> > > > > >T: The brain is a machine....It can " do " nothing. > > > > P: As I told you before, this is your very peculiar prejudice, and > > it's not supported either by science, common sense, nor daily life. > >T: The ability of " science " to grasp reality.....is always suspect. P: Yes, suspected by the orthodoxy of every religion. They have their dogmas to protect. > > T: The point is: Because it can be documented that meditation changes brain waves.....one > cannot necessarily conclude anything beneficial has occurred. P: What this proves, Toom, which you are trying to ignore is: a) Meditation happens in a brain. b) The brain responds to meditation with physical changes. You said above the brain couldn't do anything. And as far as the benefits of meditation they have been documented in many hospitals in regulating blood pressure, increasing Beta waves and decreasing hypertension. But must important you can't call liars millions of Buddhist and Hindus thru the ages who claimed it brought them detachment, peace, bliss, and insight. And if that is not enough, Toom, it worked for this brain. 'I' swear by it! T: I never said to do nothing.........I said.... you.... can do nothing. > There is a big difference. P: So, if you don't say to do nothing, tell us what is to be done? And never mind by whom. Just tell us what actions were taken by whatever is typing the toom's words. Gee! I have to tiptoe so carefully around the word 'you " for you. ) Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > > > > >T: Again you allude to an entity that can somehow benefit itself > through its > own actions. > > > P: I told you not to get lost in pronouns. There is no entity, > just grammar. Do those words which appeared on my screen above the > name Toombaro, come from realization or not? The " nature " of the entity is forever unavailable to the entity itself.....For it to claim awareness of its own condition is absurd...... Does that bypass your > pronoun phobia? Correct nondual grammar is not realization. > Getting the right nondual concepts in line is not liberation. You > know? > >> > > > > > >T: The brain is a machine....It can " do " nothing. > > > > > > P: As I told you before, this is your very peculiar prejudice, > and > > > it's not supported either by science, common sense, nor daily > life. When a body dies......when the animating force is no longer present...the brain is merely a lump of meat.......an amazing lump of meat.......It is the animating force ......not the brain......that " does " . > > > >T: The ability of " science " to grasp reality.....is always suspect. > > P: Yes, suspected by the orthodoxy of every religion. They have > their dogmas to protect. Science is only another religion. > > > > > T: The point is: Because it can be documented that meditation > changes brain waves.....one > > cannot necessarily conclude anything beneficial has occurred. > > P: What this proves, Toom, which you are trying to ignore is: > > a) Meditation happens in a brain. > b) The brain responds to meditation with physical changes. You > said above the brain couldn't do anything. The brain is a very sophisticated reactor.....a machine....nothing more. Removethe brain from a frog.....and see what it is capeable of. > And as far as the benefits of meditation they have been documented > in many hospitals in regulating blood pressure, increasing Beta waves > and decreasing hypertension. But must important you can't call liars > millions of Buddhist and Hindus thru the ages who claimed it brought > them detachment, peace, bliss, and insight. And if that is not > enough, Toom, it worked for this brain. 'I' swear by it! > > T: I never said to do nothing.........I said.... you.... can do > nothing. > > There is a big difference. > > P: So, if you don't say to do nothing, tell us what is to be done? And > never mind by whom. Just tell us what actions were taken by whatever > is typing the toom's words. Toom cannot do other then he does...... Do you believe that he has a choice? Gee! I have to tiptoe so carefully around > the word 'you " for you. ) > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider " <laughterx8@h...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider " > > <laughterx8@h...> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " > <s.petersilge@c...> > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Alberto, > > > > > > > > thank you for your loving and refreshing zen stick - welcome! > > > > > > > > So I try to be more transparent (LOL)... How is this possible > in > > > the > > > > internet? > > > > > > > > To tell the truth, I did not really make any arrangement, how > > can > > > you > > > > make arrangements with wild tigers? A look in his eyes tells > you > > > that > > > > he could jump any moment!!! Actually I was referring to a > > parable, > > > > saying that the " seeker " one day comes to a point when behind > > him > > > is a > > > > wild tiger and in front of him an abyss... thats how I often > > > feel... > > > > plus that for some reason the tiger is still waiting... > > > > > > > > BTW the original parable is even better, as told by Buddha: > > > > > > > > " A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, > > the > > > > tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the > > root > > > of > > > > a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger > > > sniffed at > > > > him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far > > below, > > > > another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained > > him. > > > Two > > > > mice, one white and one black, little by little started to > gnaw > > > away > > > > the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping > > the > > > > vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. > How > > > > sweet it tasted! " > > > > > > > > Alberto, when I wrote: *And I wonder what " I " " seek " ...* I was > > > > thinking about the futility of any search and any searcher in > > such > > > a > > > > situation. You are right, I dont know what I want, exactly now > I > > am > > > > trying to go into negotiations with those black and white > mice :- > > > ))) > > > > But, honestly, I completely had forgotten the strawberry... > > > > > > > > Greetings, Stefan > > > > > > --------------------------- > > > > > > Thanks so much for sharing the beautiful message of the tiger. > > Does > > > the tiger not represent the very wonderful thing we run from? > > We're > > > food for the tiger,,,the tiger needs us. I relate to the part > of > > > enjoying that last strawberry while running from the tiger. > > > > > > Tiger is your friend. It pushes you further into the abyss so > you > > > can eat and fatten up, so it can eat what you've eaten, > otherwise > > > the 2 of you would starve. aaah, those two mice, the dark side > and > > > the light side make the chase more interesting doesn't it? > > > > > > One of my animal guides is black panther (which is why I chose > it > > > as a picture profile) > > > > > > I'm sharing with you the white tiger medicine. White tiger is > > your > > > friend...don't let those teeth scare you. > > > > > > > > > Role: ~Seeker of Personal Truth ~ > > > Lesson: Power of Conviction > > > Element: Fire > > > Wind: South, Recalling the ~Inner Child~ > > > With Power and Strength, you glide through the night, > > > silent as the mist that evaporates with > > > the first rays of morning light > > > Eyes, glowing with a blue fire that reflect both water and sky, > > > you stare deeply into the Soul, leaving nothing unknown, > > > for all is revealed before your penetrating gaze > > > Keenest of all is the gaze you turn Inward, > > > searching the depths of your restless spirit > > > in a quest to know your Self > > > The Hunt for Personal Truth is called > > > . . . and swiftly answered > > > When the Truth is revealed, torn free from the grasp of the > past, > > > any fear felt is faced with stealthy observation > > > and unrelenting determination, > > > for Fear now is the Prey > > > > > > Divining Personal Truth Strength through Conviction > > > Uniqueness Individuality > > > Shadow & Light > > > Power > > > > > > Divining Personal Truth > > > The White Tiger`s hide of white with dark brown stripes provides > > > near perfect camouflage during the hours of dawn and dusk, the > > hours > > > during which he/she is most likely to hunt for food. Being thus > > > endowed, the white of the tiger appears to the eyes of potential > > > prey, to be innocuous areas of sunlight in the forest or jungle, > > > while the stripes provide the illusion of shadow. Thus, it is > > > believed that this is a spirit that dwells in both the world of > > > darkness (physical realm) as well as that of the light (spirit > > > realm). > > > ***One who is blessed to have White Tiger walk beside them, is > > here > > > with the Role to Seek Personal Truth. Yet in order to > thoroughly > > > understand and absorb the lessons and responsibilities of this > > role, > > > White Tiger Soul need first acknowledge the shadows that exist > > > ~Within.~ > > > The shadows that are represented by the dark stripes of the > White > > > Tiger, may be in the form of beliefs or behaviors which bring > pain > > > either to the Self or to Others, fear turned inward, which > > > ultimately manifests as hatred or anger, or Untruths which > he/she > > > has borne, either through the act of omission or the direct > > voicing > > > of Untruth. > > > Yet the challenge here is acknowledgment and the facing of > > Personal > > > Truths free of judgment, self retribution or placing > > > the " responsibility " onto another. Instead, true integration > and > > > acknowledgment of Personal Truths comes from accepting what is > > > revealed with an open and understanding heart, while operating > > with > > > the Higher Intent to change what is ultimately harmful, painful > or > > > no longer of service to the growth of the individual soul along > > its > > > Life Path. > > > Once this self-examination and soul level ~cleansing~ has been > > > accomplished, White Tiger Soul may then become the gleaming > > example > > > to his/her fellow two-leggeds of the gift and beauty of > operating > > > from Personal Truth.*** > > > > > > > > > Strength through Conviction > > > The male White Tiger can average ten feet long and weigh nearly > > 500 > > > pounds, with the female being slightly smaller at an average of > > nine > > > feet long and weighing in at around 300 pounds. Typical life > span > > > of the White Tiger varies between fifteen and twenty years, > though > > > some tigers have been known to live for as long as thirty years. > > > This magnificent creature is a deadly predator with the ability > to > > > take down prey that ranges from small wild boar, to large > > buffalo. > > > They can reach speeds of 35 miles an hour in pursuit of their > > prey, > > > however they rely more upon their ability to stalk (being well > > > camouflaged by their stripes) and their lethal pounce, than > their > > > ability to outrun their prey. > > > It only takes one look at the beauty, grace and power of this > > > wonderful animal to recognize that this is a being of incredible > > > Strength. > > > ***White Tiger is drawn to a soul that has a powerful sense of > > > conviction and inner strength. Therefore, one who is blessed > with > > > this Power Totem will have strong ideas of what is " right " > > > and " wrong, " and will stand by this personal belief system, even > > if > > > that means leaping in the face of popular opinion. > > > Naturally, this may either engender one to be an advocate of > such > > > issues as political and philosophical freedoms, or they may feel > > > compelled to be a champion for the ~under-dogs~ of life. > However, > > > if one is operating from Contrary White Tiger Medicine, the > > impulse > > > may lean toward a judgmental attitude to any individuals who do > > not > > > share their thoughts or feelings on what constitutes " right " > > > and " wrong " thoughts, actions or deeds, or they may be arrogant > in > > > the assumption that their opinion is the only " valid " one. > > > Regardless of whether White Tiger Soul is operating from Higher > > > Intent or Contrary Medicine, these individuals will be well > known > > > for their outspokenness and strength of conviction. They are > here > > > to teach us the importance of knowing ones inner values and > > beliefs, > > > and to instruct us to align the way in which we walk our Path so > > it > > > is in keeping with our belief system. > > > When one chooses to operate from the higher vibration of White > > > Tiger, an impassioned voice may be raised as an advocate for > > Balance > > > and Acceptance, a Teacher of Fundamental Philosophy might be > born, > > > or a Leader may emerge to guide the way along the path of > > Universal > > > Truth.*** > > > > > > > > > Uniqueness > > > > > > > > > The White Tiger is from the Bengal sub-species of Panthera > Tigeris > > > and its white coat, blue eyes and pink nose are formed from a > > double > > > recessive gene, giving them a truly special and wonderfully > unique > > > appearance. > > > All tigers, including the White Tiger, are not typical of their > > > other feline cousins in that they not only tolerate water, they > > > actually enjoy swimming, playing and indulging themselves in > ponds > > > and streams and will spend a good deal of the hot days in > > frolicking > > > in and around water sources. > > > Sadly, this Tiger is on the Endangered Species list, warning us > > that > > > this magnificent and beautiful creature is threatened with > > complete > > > extinction unless we, as guardians of the Earth Mother and all > the > > > dwell upon Her, act consciously to preserve this awesome animal. > > > ***Much like their Power Totem, White Tiger Souls are > individuals > > in > > > every sense of the word and pride themselves upon standing apart > > > from the group. It is this inner drive to be recognized for > their > > > unique contributions that will often propel he/she who walks > with > > > White Tiger, into positions of public attention and > recognition. > > > Consequently, many leaders who have elicited sweeping changes > and > > > reformation have had the blessing of White Tiger. > > > White Tiger reminds us that although we are All One, it is the > > > specialized contribution of the Individual that begins the spark > > > that later becomes the blazing torch that illuminates the night, > > > growing brighter with each individual spirit that contributes > > their > > > own unique Light. > > > If White Tiger manifests the Contrary Medicine, then he/she may > be > > > the proverbial rebel without a cause, tossing a stone into a > calm > > > lake without the intent of a Higher Good being served and merely > > to > > > watch the ripples spread outward. > > > Yet when the powerful and highly individualized energies so > > abundant > > > with this Totem can be harnessed and channeled in a constructive > > > manner, then their gift of Uniqueness can spread lasting changes > > > that benefit the Whole. The resulting manifestation is as a > > > brilliant star in a night sky beckoning all to partake in the > > beauty > > > and fire of Life.*** > > ****************************************************** > > > > Hi Donny, can you write you name at the bottom of your speech! I > > always have to search who wrote what??? :0))) > > > > I like what you wrote! That's true and very nice. :0)) > > Two minutes later I forgot every single word you wrote! > > > > the fish, > > P.S. > > Could someone help Toombaru! He thinks he is a shoe!! :0))) > (joking) > > Alberto, > > -------------------- > > hey, hi, > > Alberto, you are so cute, Toombaru thinks he is a shoe and you say > you are a fish. I could hug you both, you make me smile. > > Oh, thankyou for the suggestion Alberto, I'll try to remember to put > my name on the bottom of my messages,,,,If I can,,,, I'm a bit of a > fish too :-D > > Actually, I was going to add to my above post, and sign off, but I'm > just learning how to figure this board out and hit send instead of > edit, so it got sent the way it was. > It's taking a while for me to find the way of how to use this board. > > I like the honesty and openess here. I never know when I may > need to call on someone in helping decipher some of the interesting > observations that run through my little head. This seems to be a > good place to do that. > > I feel a lot of love here. I feel such a kinship with you all here > that I haven't felt for a very long time. > > In the future I may posts some ideas for you all to help me as I > learn, and in my case I appropriately use the word learn, to > understand this adventure of being a woman on planet earth. > You think thoughts are an interesting experience,,, > try living with female horomones that swing faster than the > pendulum on Big Ben. > I've been more concerned with accepting feelings and coming to > terms with feelings as part of my reality and part of my human > experience/experiment. Interestingly enough, when I did this they > subsided from being all over the place, to much more mellow and > balanced, or even. I have come to see that thinking thoughts is > the same way. The more I accept them with an honesty the more they > kind of disappear,,, or rather become more mellow or balanced (as > opposed to chaotic) > > The more I tried to push thoughts/feelings away, thinking that I > was pushing away the non-reality,,,I saw that I was only engaging in > some kind of fight, or war. The more I realized that I could > embrace/accept what was going on, there was no war. If no one > fights there is no war. So, there is no thought or feeling to > think or not to think about concerning myself over. The more I > thought about manipulating the process the more war ensued. Now I > look at just enjoying/accepting the unusual process called human > life. > > I believe the altered/separated state has been pulled as far away > from the 'whole' state, and this state(human) has been left 'alone' > so to speak, and can't be experimented with any further or people's > separation will lead them to an insane zombie like nothing state > which can't really go any further. > I loved the way someone on the board described it~~ it is as if the > universe is looking up it's skirt. So here we all sit, taking in > the data learned by the experimentation. It is a beautiful moment. > > We have all come to finish that which we started a very long time > ago. > > with much love, > > ~*~ Donny ~*~ Hi Donny?!?! I didn't know you were a woman??? Well 1st, I don't know many woman that are in the Way. Lets say none! 2nly My native language is Spanish, French, then English. I rarely speak English. Just with you guys! I tought Donny was a guys name? Oups! Sorry! I didn't know! hi hi, I'll have to wear white gloves now??? Hummmmmm lets see?!?!?!?!? Nooooo waaaay!!! ha ha ha! :0)) as you said you women are terrible with your emotions. Can't control them! Well, some do! They are called grannys!! Old, old, ladys who, being tired making war with their emotions, finally drop the fight, and watch them pass by, like the clouds in the sky. Not affected by them. :0) We have a winner here!!!! ha ha ha! You wrote: I have come to see that thinking thoughts is > the same way. The more I accept them with an honesty the more they > kind of disappear,,, or rather become more mellow or balanced (as > opposed to chaotic) > > The more I tried to push thoughts/feelings away, thinking that I > was pushing away the non-reality,,,I saw that I was only engaging in > some kind of fight, or war. The more I realized that I could > embrace/accept what was going on, there was no war. If no one > fights there is no war. If you continue to simply watch the thinking process. As you said thoughts will vanish. Where are they? they are no more! Gone with the wind! And there in that state of contemplation " you " not Ramana, or a Master but " you " realise by yourself that " you " are not thoughts. That you are greater than toughts. Mastering your emotions, mastering your thoughts, relaxing your body accepting, your body, being your body, in peace with your soul, you remain there silent, with or without a thought (If a tought you simply watch it with a smile) You are Consciousness, the observer of all manifestation. There, you are in the sixth stage of life. As often describe by master Ramana Maharshi or other Masters! But you have to master this in order to be a sixth stage realiser. Under all circumstances. Sixth stage master says!! I am the consciousness. Immortal bliss, I am eternal, no one can destroy it. I am Consciousness! Not the body, not the emotions, not the thoughts, not the soul( Internal or external personality ). Not this, not that. I am the observer, everything arrives to " ME " the Consciousness! hi hi hi! It is soo funny!! :0) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >T: Again you allude to an entity that can somehow benefit itself > > through its > own actions. > > > > > P: I told you not to get lost in pronouns. There is no entity, > > just grammar. Do those words which appeared on my screen above the > > name Toombaro, come from realization or not? > > > T: The " nature " of the entity is forever unavailable to the entity itself.....For it to claim awareness of its own condition is absurd...... P: You are a master of evasion! Does this means no? Do those words come from book learning, and lists discussions, only? Plus toom, you are contradicting yourself, first you keep repeating the entity is an illusion, now you wrote the entity has a 'nature.' Who is talking here, the entity, or nature? Are you getting confused? > > > > T: When a body dies......when the animating force is no longer present...the brain is merely a lump of meat.......an amazing lump of meat.......It is the animating force ......not the brain......that " does " . P: What animating force are you talking about? A force is physical energy at work. What kind of energy? Is it electricity? Is it spiritual? > > >T: The ability of " science " to grasp reality.....is always suspect. > > > > P: Yes, suspected by the orthodoxy of every religion. They have > > their dogmas to protect. > > T:Science is only another religion. P:Maybe, toom, bu it performs miracles. What can of miracles has your theory performed? > > > > > T: Remove the brain from a frog.....and see what it is capeable of. P: Laugh! Are you running out of arguments? We are not talking about frogs. Can you hop w/o your brain? ) > > > > P: So, if you don't say to do nothing, tell us what is to be done? And > > never mind by whom. Just tell us what actions were taken by whatever > > is typing the toom's words.> > > >T: Toom cannot do other then he does...... P: What is it that he does? Don't evade. There is nothing to fear here. You can stop anytime you want. That's what used to tell young girls back in the sixties? It worked sometimes. ) > T:Do you believe that he has a choice? P: That is not important. What actions were performed and did they work? Don't be evasive. I won't hurt you. I promise. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: >You are lucky my friend. That means you truly are in the way and >more that that, it give you the chance to go beyond yourself, beyond >the ego, beyond what you actually know about yourself. This is >called the spiritual war. You must win it to continue in the Way. Alberto, thank you for this answer, it did not come to my mind to become a warrior, but you are so right!!! When there is fear this is the only way: go to war! I will sharpen my sword. I promise. No, I sharpen now. Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > >You are lucky my friend. That means you truly are in the way and > >more that that, it give you the chance to go beyond yourself, beyond > >the ego, beyond what you actually know about yourself. This is > >called the spiritual war. You must win it to continue in the Way. > > Alberto, > thank you for this answer, it did not come to my mind to become a > warrior, but you are so right!!! When there is fear this is the only > way: go to war! I will sharpen my sword. I promise. No, I sharpen now. > > Stefan THAT IS THE ATTITUDE Dude!!! ha ha ha! Now you're talking !!! You are the Master of your life! You are the king of your world. No one can tell you who you are. You tell them who You are!! :0)) With your new attitude... poor tigers man! I'm scared for them. lol You said you didn't think about going to war! Life if a constante war! I didn't think about going to war either! Then I married. Boy oh boy!!! :0)) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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