Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 An intelligent entity concludes, that it cannot be existent. But it is impossible that an entity realizes its own un-existence. And an entity declaring its own unexistence is absurd. So we call it the child of a barren woman. Or the sound of one hand clapping... =clapp= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > An intelligent entity concludes, that it cannot be existent. > But it is impossible that an entity realizes its own un-existence. > And an entity declaring its own unexistence is absurd. > So we call it the child of a barren woman. > > Or the sound of one hand clapping... > > =clapp= The entity uses the same criteria to confirm its own existence.....that it uses to deny it. Its totality " emerges and lives " within a self-referential bubble.......... The entity is a shadow.....there never was an autonomous entity........there never was a wave...or a river......... Where are all the people.....and mountains....and rivers.....in your dream last night?.......where did the come from? Where did they go? Will they improve themselves over time?.........Will they be reborn?....Will they some day find the God of their own creation? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 beautiful............. fascinating.......really a great concept..........so beautiful how beautiful it wud be if we could " EXPERIENCE " / " BE " it. the only catch comes when we look at our own lives..when we look at the mirror........and find a gap between the walk and the talk... suppose i have all these teachings in my mind.....im going by a boat (and i dont know to swim)..the boat starts to sink. will i be the fearless lion of advaita then??? i can only speak for myself...I Would NOT. thats why i beleive Nisargadatta repeatedly used to say his concepts were the last point ...and they were for the person who has risen above the body idea.and to rise above that " something wud reqd. to be done " be it meditation/watching the sense " I AM " ...there wud be some " -ing " .........of course later on if we reach the heights we can say--it was all happening........but saying that now would spoil the whole joy of self-effort and in fact wont take us anywhere...and why should it be a burden to " do " ...heres the joy of life..of " -ing " ...of striving..of surrendering....such a beautiful joy but really tombaaru you have expressed the ideal beautifully. > > > The entity uses the same criteria to confirm its own existence.....that it uses to deny it. > > Its totality " emerges and lives " within a self-referential bubble.......... > > The entity is a shadow.....there never was an autonomous entity........there never was a > wave...or a river......... > > Where are all the people.....and mountains....and rivers.....in your dream last > night?.......where did the come from? > > Where did they go? > > > Will they improve themselves over time?.........Will they be reborn?....Will they some day > find the God of their own creation? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: >Where are all the people.....and mountains....and rivers.....in your >dream last night?.......where did the come from? Where did they go? >Will they improve themselves over time?.........Will they be >reborn?....Will they some day find the God of their own creation? What are those questions good for? S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " coolasafool " <coolasafool> wrote: >suppose i have all these teachings in my mind.....im going by a boat >(and i dont know to swim)...the boat starts to sink. will i be the >fearless lion of advaita then??? i can only speak for myself...I Would >NOT. Hi, I understand what you want to say! Boy, the man even did not learn to swim... tsts... And now I ask a question: if you had the choice to be in a sinking boat (and you cannot swim!!!) with the guaranty that you will be enlightened... or to be in the save harbour and never be enlightened... what would you chose? No time to ask the tarot cards: the offer is valid only for 1 second. S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > >Where are all the people.....and mountains....and rivers.....in your > >dream last night?.......where did the come from? Where did they go? > >Will they improve themselves over time?.........Will they be > >reborn?....Will they some day find the God of their own creation? > > What are those questions good for? > S. When those questions are applied to one's dream last night.........one can easily see that all those dream-people....all of those mountains.....all of those rivers......although they appeared to be quite real at the time......were in fact......apparitions in the dreamer's mind. They really did not exist at all. The dreaming mind......when it is dreaming has not way to determine that it is dreaming.........every thing that it " sees " is only itself.....there is no place within the dream....where the dreamer can find perspective. When it ponders the possiblity that the same mind that is dreaming......may be creating its own reality in the " waking state " ....it recoils in self defense........It will claim that it is indeed " real " .....substantial......and becomes aggressive toward any information to the contrary..........It will form survival-alliances......and rebuild any damaged walls...... All questions emerge from within the assumption of autonomy....... " What is that? " .......comes after the conceptual separation of All-That-Is. Even the most fundimental question: " Who am I? " comes from within the belief that the " I " is substantial....real. Anything downstream from that assumption.....is flawed....tainted......unreal. Questions...about anything.....are circular.....and meaningless.............in the apperception of this.........all questions........disappear back into themselves........and that which was the inside.....becomes the......outside. The dream continues.........but it is not taken personally............. PS As mentioned above......I am not claiming apperception of what is written through me......sometimes I am actually surprised at what comes out.....and sometimes if simply do not " get it " . I am, however, deeply appreciative for the interchange of ideas from each and every one on this list...and the thoughts that they provoke.....responses bubble to the surface......by themselves............ but loose most of their flavor......when I try to express them.......It is....for this identified-entity.......high fun....:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 --- In > > > When it ponders the possiblity that the same mind that is dreaming......may be creating its own reality in the " waking state " ....it recoils in self defense........It will claim that it is indeed " real " .....substantial......and becomes aggressive toward any information to the contrary..........It will form survival- alliances......and rebuild any damaged walls...... P: There is no apparent contradiction in the assertion that the mind creates the dream (of what it's judged to be reality) nevertheless, this can't explain away the reality of the mind (or brain.) They both can't be pressumed to be un-real, or the term unreal will have no meaning. We can say, with no contradiction, they both arise co- dependantly (as the Buddhist doctrine does) and leave the question of their reality un-answered as an academic question that will not foster realization. > > > All questions emerge from within the assumption of autonomy....... > " What is that? " .......comes after the conceptual separation of All- That-Is. P: Yes > > Even the most fundimental question: " Who am I? " comes from within the belief that the " I " is substantial....real. P:Yes > > Anything downstream from that assumption.....is flawed....tainted......unreal. P: And that has to include your above assumption too. Can you see that? > > Questions...about anything.....are circular.....and meaningless.............in the apperception of this.........all questions........disappear back into themselves........and that which was the inside.....becomes the......outside. P: No inside, no outside. Only.... this > > The dream continues.........but it is not taken personally............. P:Yes. Pete > > > > PS > > > As mentioned above......I am not claiming apperception of what is written through me......sometimes I am actually surprised at what comes out.....and sometimes if simply do not " get it " . > > I am, however, deeply appreciative for the interchange of ideas from each and every one on this list...and the thoughts that they provoke.....responses bubble to the surface......by themselves............ but loose most of their flavor......when I try to express them.......It is....for this identified-entity.......high fun....:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > --- In > > > > > When it ponders the possiblity that the same mind that is > dreaming......may be creating its own reality in the " waking > state " ....it recoils in self defense........It will claim that it is > indeed " real " .....substantial......and becomes aggressive toward any > information to the contrary..........It will form survival- > alliances......and rebuild any damaged walls...... > > P: There is no apparent contradiction in the assertion that the mind > creates the dream (of what it's judged to be reality) nevertheless, > this can't explain away the reality of the mind (or brain.) They both > can't be pressumed to be un-real, or the term unreal will have no > meaning. We can say, with no contradiction, they both arise co- > dependantly (t) If it is believed that they exist " co-dependently " .....they could have no independent exixtence....anthing that has no independent exixtence.....can not exist (as the Buddhist doctrine does) and leave the question > of their reality un-answered as an academic question that will not > foster realization. (t) " Realization " is only a concoction of mind itself.......an imaginary excape hatch from the dream......which is its totality. This dilemmma cannot be resolved on the level in which it occurs...........Mind's own origin will forever remain....... " The Mystery " . > > > > > > All questions emerge from within the assumption of autonomy....... > > " What is that? " .......comes after the conceptual separation of All- > That-Is. > > P: Yes > > > > Even the most fundimental question: " Who am I? " comes from within > the belief that the " I " is substantial....real. > > P:Yes > > > > Anything downstream from that assumption.....is > flawed....tainted......unreal. > > P: And that has to include your above assumption too. Can you see > that? (t)....yes........although......my sight itself......... might be a little flawed .....:-) > > > > Questions...about anything.....are circular.....and > meaningless.............in the apperception of this.........all > questions........disappear back into themselves........and that which > was the inside.....becomes the......outside. > > P: No inside, no outside. Only.... this > > I like what you said......better.....:-) > > The dream continues.........but it is not taken > personally............. > > P:Yes. > > Pete > > > > > > > > PS > > > > > > As mentioned above......I am not claiming apperception of what is > written through me......sometimes I am actually surprised at what > comes out.....and sometimes if simply do not " get it " . > > > > I am, however, deeply appreciative for the interchange of ideas > from each and every one on this list...and the thoughts that they > provoke.....responses bubble to the surface......by > themselves............ but loose most of their flavor......when I try > to express them.......It is....for this identified-entity.......high > fun....:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 > > (t) If it is believed that they exist " co-dependently " .....they could have no independent exixtence....anthing that has no independent exixtence.....can not exist P: Can't exist 'independently', that is. It's important not over-extend, or generalize a statement. that freccuently give rise to error and mis-interpretations. > > > (as the Buddhist doctrine does) and leave the question > > of their reality un-answered as an academic question that will not > > foster realization. > > > > > (t) " Realization " is only a concoction of mind itself.......an imaginary excape hatch from the dream......which is its totality. P: This, again, is only partially true. Yes, realization is a mind concoction (not in the pejorative sense, but in the sense that it is a medicine for the mind's ills) a potion for suffering, and pain, confusion and ignorance. We all know what those are, we all have felt their burns. If your dear ones would die suddenly, you would be in deep suffering. But, if your mind had clarity, and direct seeing into your true nature that suffering would be brief. Believe me I have experienced suffering both ways. With clarity and direct seeing is a hell of a lot less painful. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 if it be the will of god..i would choose to be in the ship.:-)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Toombarus: >Where are all the people.....and mountains....and rivers.....in >your dream last night?.......where did the come from? Where did >they go? Will they improve themselves over time?.........Will they be >reborn?....Will they some day find the God of their own creation? Stefan: >What are those questions good for? Toombarus: >When those questions are applied to one's dream last >night.........one can easily see that all those dream-people....all >of those mountains.....all of those rivers......although they >appeared to be quite real at the time......were in >fact......apparitions in the dreamer's mind. No,no, my friend, you were asking those questions because you CARE for your dreams! You wanted to know the FUTURE of those things. What for? Just ask yourself who you are and wake up! Leave the dreams behind. You ask: " Will they some day find the God of their own creation? " What kind of question is this? Did you already kill the God of your own creation? You seem to LOVE your dreams. Nothing wrong about that, but it makes me wonder: what do you want, Toombarus? S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , " coolasafool " <coolasafool> wrote: >if it be the will of god..i would choose to be in the ship.:-)) And what if YOU are God yourself, what would be your will? S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > Toombarus: > >Where are all the people.....and mountains....and rivers.....in > >your dream last night?.......where did the come from? Where did > >they go? Will they improve themselves over time?.........Will they be > >reborn?....Will they some day find the God of their own creation? > > Stefan: > >What are those questions good for? > > Toombarus: > >When those questions are applied to one's dream last > >night.........one can easily see that all those dream-people....all > >of those mountains.....all of those rivers......although they > >appeared to be quite real at the time......were in > >fact......apparitions in the dreamer's mind. > > No,no, my friend, > you were asking those questions because you CARE for your dreams! You > wanted to know the FUTURE of those things. What for? Just ask yourself > who you are and wake up! There is no dreamer....to awaken........ Mind is dreaming itself....... There is nothing outside of the dream.... Those who awaken.......are.....no more. Leave the dreams behind. You ask: " Will they > some day find the God of their own creation? " In the assumption of personal reality.......mind exprapolates the maker of its assumed self......mind invents god. What kind of question is > this? Did you already kill the God of your own creation? You seem to > LOVE your dreams. There is nothing else.......to love.......or hate..........but dreams Nothing wrong about that, but it makes me wonder: > what do you want, Toombarus? > S There is something.........that smiles....and likes to dance...I see it everywhere.......it seems.... feminine...... sensuous......warm.......it glances in my direction.....and then runs of into the forest.......sometimes it kisses me on the mouth......and spends the night............it makes love. it is so.................vast............. the more i want it........the harder it is to hold.....if i let it go.......it always comes back.......i think..... its me......:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Stefan wrote: >What kind of question is this? Did you already kill the God of your >own creation? You seem to LOVE your dreams. Toombarus wrote: >There is nothing else..... to love..... or hate....... but dreams So, because you LOVE them I wish you sweet dreams... I have asked: >Nothing wrong about that, but it makes me wonder: >what do you want, Toombarus? And you told me what you want: >There is something...... that smiles....and likes to dance...I see >it everywhere.......it seems.... feminine.... >sensuous......warm.... it glances in my direction.....and then runs >of into the forest.......sometimes it kisses me on the mouth.... and >spends the night............it makes love. it is so.... vast.... Wow, dont let her run into the forest, make her happy! What is she thinking about your... poetic... ... obsessions? Go for it, man, sounds like this nice kind of dream where one never wants to wake up!!! You lucky you :-)) >the more i want it........the harder it is to hold.....if i let it go.......it always comes back.......i think..... its me......:-) Na, if you *really* want it you can get it, just be nice to her! Dont fight it, enjoy it! And dont think too much... she might run into the forest again... May your dreams come true :-) ... ;-O S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 sorry ...prefer not to answer armchair advaitic questions. conceptual loop detected.... abort,retry,fail? hit any key to continue :->>>>> --- Stefan <s.petersilge wrote: > Nisargadatta , " coolasafool " > <coolasafool> > wrote: > >if it be the will of god..i would choose to be in > the ship.:-)) > > And what if YOU are God yourself, what would be your > will? > S. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , Devendra Vyas <coolasafool> wrote: >sorry ...prefer not to answer armchair advaitic questions. >conceptual loop detected.... >abort,retry,fail? >hit any key to continue I did not expect that you answer those questions. I liked your first answer because it included trust, faith. But I wanted to provoke you for more. Maybe this was not nice. But if people are using God as an excuse not to stand up and make their choice - what is God worth? I think the one who has the choice is YOU because YOU are GOD. Get engaged in the loop you have detected, if you wish. I will not. Did it never occur to you, that those things that are discussed here in an armchair manner (I like that expression :-)) could be questions of life and death for somebody who is already drowning? Do you remember why Buddha started his search? Because he found that his life as a king was not representing life at all. Only when he saw how cruel life really is he became thirsty for truth. Those people who are excited by beautiful phrases and fascinated by advaitic paradoxes are still living in their air castles. They did not even make the first step. A woman said to a great piano player: " Maestro, I would give everything to be able to play like you! " The artist answered: " Lady, I gave everything to play like I play. " Do you see the difference? Maharshi has said: " You give up this and that of 'my' possessions. If you give up 'I' and 'Mine' instead, all are given up at a stroke. The very seed of possession is lost. Thus the evil is nipped in the bud or crushed in the germ itself. Dispassion (vairagya) must be very strong to do this. Eagerness to do it must be equal to that of a man kept under water trying to rise up to the surface for his life. " Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Hi Stefan, all, > >if it be the will of god..i would choose to be in the ship.:-)) >>>> And what if YOU are God yourself, what would be your will? > S>>> Yes, and what if God asked you 'What should I do?' Kind Regards, Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 hey stefan.. im the provoker in cheif....im not giving up my place too soon. my problem is -- i get tired of writing such long emails when i know that the conceptual business is a zero-sum game. my focus is WALK THE TALK and i keep hammering away at that. cheers... devendra _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 Hi Devendra, I can see you prefer to be in the position of the provoker rather than to be provoked :-) But..... I have to say..... you are a very..... polite..... provoker..... haha, Greetings Stefan Nisargadatta , Devendra Vyas <coolasafool> wrote: > hey stefan.. > > im the provoker in cheif....im not giving up my place > too soon. > > my problem is -- i get tired of writing such long > emails when i know that the conceptual business is a > zero-sum game. > > my focus is WALK THE TALK and i keep hammering away at > that. > > cheers... > devendra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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