Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Devendra wrote: I believe in rebirth? What do you exactly belief about rebirth? Whose rebirth? Are you referring to reincarnation a la Hindu? Or rebirth a la Buddhist? And finally, What does that belief does for you? How does it help you? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Devendra wrote: I believe in rebirth? > What do you exactly belief about rebirth? > Whose rebirth? > Are you referring to reincarnation a la Hindu? > Or rebirth a la Buddhist? > And finally, What does that belief does for you? > How does it help you? > > Pete I believe in after-birth.........:-0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 interesting stuff...i will simply state what my thought process has come to.... just for the record and history- my intellect got wrapped up by the theories put forth by Balsekar and i was a non beleiver in rebirth for some time...but i believe i have come to my senses for wot is right for me.regarding Nsg-mhj there are instances where has conceded rebirth and others where he has thrown it out..depending on the fitness of the enquirer. AFAIK and Understand.. for me there is very little diff between the hindu and buddhist viewpoints... Hindus say- the personality continues. budhists say - the tendencies/patterns continue.... hindus wud say devendra wud continue but this amounts to saying the pattern called devendra wud continue... buddhists wud say the pattern that devendra is wud continue but this amounts to saying devendra wud continue..... no basic diff between the pattern and the individual... the pattern is a pseudo entity all along. what the belief does for me is ..it got more to do as a Hindu rather than spirito-philosophy... my hindu world view totally rests on two foundations--Karma AND REBIRTH ,BOTH being inexplicably linked.....if i am told that there is no sadhana,no rebirth,no karma....it rings a bell since i too have read ajatavada.but things dont tally when i wake up each morning..so rebirth concept is useful for me...ill throw it in the garbage when time comes. the biggest help is that it gives purpose to my actions..moreover i cant be hypocrite- i am in space-time-cause so i have to use these 2 powerful concepts.but i am not a fanatic on this count - i understand that there may be many to whom the very opposite concepts cud be useful..to each his own.pls. dont ridicule my concepts..i wont ridicule yours. my immediate state dont tally with my ultimate goal so i need crutches....the day they match ..im done... -------------------- two quotes about rebirth which shape my opinion in favor of it... " It is like the play of wavelets arising on the smooth surface of a calm ocean after the wind spontaneously comes up...the wavelets may think that they exist separate from the water, they may imagine that they are performing independent actions and that they have to experience the imagined consequences of these actions, and that periodically they are being dissolved and reborn again as wavelets taking on specific forms in relation to these past actions. Finally, to escape their misery, they may yearn to merge and become one again with the water, and be liberated from their imagined existence separate from the water... but this is all just a silly mistake. When it is seen in the light of truth, one realizes immediately that the whole concept of rebirth is sheer nonsense; it is just the product of the obfuscating imagination of the mind, seeking to explain a mistaken notion by propounding a further mistaken notion. Wavelets are always water, and phenomena are always noumenon, the unchanging Absolute, which, without being in any way affected, appears in form as images that rise and set in the play of consciousness. " --the non dualistic teachings of Nsg-mhj,by drucker and Nilayam.(from the internet) " ....Even so the forces, called Prana in Sanskrit, come together and form the body and the mind out of matter, and move on until the body falls down, when they raise other materials to make another body, and when this falls, another rises, and thus the process goes on. Force cannot travel without matter. So when the body falls down, the mind- stuff remains, Prana in the form of Samskaras acting on it; and then it goes on to another point, raises up another whirl from fresh materials, and begins another motion; and so it travels from place to place until the force is all spent; and then it falls down, ended. So when the mind will end, be broken to pieces entirely, without leaving any Samskara, we shall be entirely free, and until that time we are in bondage; until then the Atman is covered by the whirl of the mind, and imagines it is being taken from place to place. When the whirl falls down, the Atman finds that It is all-pervading. It can go where It likes, is entirely free, and is able to manufacture any number of minds or bodies It likes; but until then It can go only with the whirl. This freedom is the goal towards which we are all moving. " -swami vivekananda ..Jnana Yoga... i entirely understand that there can be conflicting views on this eternal knotty issue.... if someone can help calirfying the issue further... but ajatavadins may kindly excuse me. Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Devendra wrote: I believe in rebirth? > What do you exactly belief about rebirth? > Whose rebirth? > Are you referring to reincarnation a la Hindu? > Or rebirth a la Buddhist? > And finally, What does that belief does for you? > How does it help you? > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 hey toombarus... coming from you ..that was very very funny....:->>>(LOL) Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Devendra wrote: I believe in rebirth? > > What do you exactly belief about rebirth? > > Whose rebirth? > > Are you referring to reincarnation a la Hindu? > > Or rebirth a la Buddhist? > > And finally, What does that belief does for you? > > How does it help you? > > > > Pete > > > > I believe in after-birth.........:-0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 > I believe in after-birth.........:-0 I believe in après-ski and soleil and, not to forget, a smoke après sexe, naturellement. :-X Kip Almazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 > > i entirely understand that there can be conflicting views on this > eternal knotty issue.... > if someone can help calirfying the issue further... > > but ajatavadins may kindly excuse me. I don't know if I can clarify the issue further for you, but I coul offer another angle you did not mention: Some Buddhists scholars don't accept re-birth except as the theory that the aggregates which constitude the mind have no continuity, and are reborn moment to moment. Since one of the central tenents of Buddhist is anatta (no self) There is nothing that could transmigrate from one body to the next which could be called " you. " Memories do not survive senility, so how could they survive death? And what other than their bodies and memories most people feel feel they are? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > > > i entirely understand that there can be conflicting views on this > > eternal knotty issue.... > > if someone can help calirfying the issue further... > > > > but ajatavadins may kindly excuse me. > > I don't know if I can clarify the issue further for you, > but I coul offer another angle you did not mention: > > Some Buddhists scholars don't accept re-birth except as the theory > that the aggregates which constitude the mind have no > continuity, and are reborn moment to moment. Since one of > the central tenents of Buddhist is anatta (no self) There is > nothing that could transmigrate from one body to the next which > could be called " you. " Memories do not survive senility, so how > could they survive death? And what other than their bodies and > memories most people feel feel they are? > > Pete Namaste, Actually memories or the citta do survive death. The brain loses its ability to access them in senility etc. What takes rebirth is the attributes and tendencies of the person due to karma. So it is an entity that transmigrates not 'you'. However anatta etc are only fully valid if one has dropped the ego and achieve nirvana/moksha..IMO..........ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Tony OClery " <aoclery> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > > > > > > i entirely understand that there can be conflicting views on > this > > > eternal knotty issue.... > > > if someone can help calirfying the issue further... > > > > > > but ajatavadins may kindly excuse me. > > > > I don't know if I can clarify the issue further for you, > > but I coul offer another angle you did not mention: > > > > Some Buddhists scholars don't accept re-birth except as the theory > > that the aggregates which constitude the mind have no > > continuity, and are reborn moment to moment. Since one of > > the central tenents of Buddhist is anatta (no self) There is > > nothing that could transmigrate from one body to the next which > > could be called " you. " Memories do not survive senility, so how > > could they survive death? And what other than their bodies and > > memories most people feel feel they are? > > > > Pete > > Namaste, > > Actually memories or the citta do survive death. P: And you know that for a fact? Or you just believe this? The brain loses its > ability to access them in senility etc. What takes rebirth is the > attributes and tendencies of the person due to karma. So it is an > entity that transmigrates not 'you'. However anatta etc are only > fully valid if one has dropped the ego and achieve > nirvana/moksha..IMO..........ONS..Tony. P: What is the differnce between a you and this entity? What is the enity made of? And so to you, nirvana is the achievement of a one? And so nirvana is something this one holds? Hmm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 So true Pete, I remember J. Krishnamurti ín a discussion asked why is this belief in rebirth, in resurrection and he meant because during one's life so many unfulfilled whishes have accumulated that the fear no longer to have them fuilfilled is the real motivation wanting another life. And he ended by stating if there is resurrection then only now - " You must resurrect now " . Werner Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > > > i entirely understand that there can be conflicting views on this > > eternal knotty issue.... > > if someone can help calirfying the issue further... > > > > but ajatavadins may kindly excuse me. > > I don't know if I can clarify the issue further for you, > but I coul offer another angle you did not mention: > > Some Buddhists scholars don't accept re-birth except as the theory > that the aggregates which constitude the mind have no > continuity, and are reborn moment to moment. Since one of > the central tenents of Buddhist is anatta (no self) There is > nothing that could transmigrate from one body to the next which > could be called " you. " Memories do not survive senility, so how > could they survive death? And what other than their bodies and > memories most people feel feel they are? > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Tony OClery " <aoclery> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > i entirely understand that there can be conflicting views on > > this > > > > eternal knotty issue.... > > > > if someone can help calirfying the issue further... > > > > > > > > but ajatavadins may kindly excuse me. > > > > > > I don't know if I can clarify the issue further for you, > > > but I coul offer another angle you did not mention: > > > > > > Some Buddhists scholars don't accept re-birth except as the theory > > > that the aggregates which constitude the mind have no > > > continuity, and are reborn moment to moment. Since one of > > > the central tenents of Buddhist is anatta (no self) There is > > > nothing that could transmigrate from one body to the next which > > > could be called " you. " Memories do not survive senility, so how > > > could they survive death? And what other than their bodies and > > > memories most people feel feel they are? > > > > > > Pete > > > > Namaste, > > > > Actually memories or the citta do survive death. > > P: And you know that for a fact? Or you just believe this? > > The brain loses its > > ability to access them in senility etc. > What takes rebirth is the > > attributes and tendencies of the person due to karma. So it is an > > entity that transmigrates not 'you'. However anatta etc are only > > fully valid if one has dropped the ego and achieve > > nirvana/moksha..IMO..........ONS..Tony. > > P: What is the differnce between a you and this entity? What > is the enity made of? And so to you, nirvana is the achievement > of a one? And so nirvana is something this one holds? > > Hmm! Namaste, My experience in talking to spirits from time to time, indicates that memory does survive as well as other sheaths or kosas as well. The ultimate is that you don't exist but in the meantime all the layers that prevent you from realising that do exist or have validity. Nirvana is really the cessation of all thought and therefore Liberation from illusion..........ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 > Namaste, > > My experience in talking to spirits from time to time, indicates > that memory does survive as well as other sheaths or kosas as well. > The ultimate is that you don't exist but in the meantime all the > layers that prevent you from realising that do exist or have > validity. Nirvana is really the cessation of all thought and > therefore Liberation from illusion..........ONS...Tony. Tony, what proof do you have you talk to spirits? Can you admit the possibilty that a part of your cortex is talking to a deeper until then untap part of the brain? I don't suppose any of those spirits could tell you the winning number for SuperLotto next Sat? I would be happy to split it with you, plus that sure would make me a believer in spirits too. How about it, pal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 TONY & PETE. ------------ i know its an eternally knotty issue..ill reply in brief. spirituality is an ENTIRELY subjective game....hence there can be endless arguments about it.i mean nobody can and nobody will ever photograph and departing soul and show it as proof. on the one side as tony mentioned there is the concept of Kosas/citta which has been ratified by the masters.(which are our primary reference point)..if you want objective proof there is the case of Edgar Casey and his mystic readings...but such is the nature of the topic that its ENDLESLY DEBATABLE either way. on the other sde there are the powerful arguments of Jiddu/Balsekar et. al. regarding the buddhists..... yes they say there is a pattern/bundle of energy which is reborn from shana to shana(moment to moment)... the counter argument can be..agreed then why is it limited to this life...why not ad.infintum..??how do you know?? regarding memory- the actual continuation is of samskaras which can be loosely translated as - character/personality or sum total of the tendencies. senility only renders the instrument faulty it dont erase the database. the sweet and simple answer is i prefer to believe in the word of the masters..if you want objective proof ...i have none...and i am not apologetic about it..becoz i know there are ample holes to be picked in the contrary view also. of course rebirth is not the ABSOLUTE TRUTH- THAT ONLY " IS " . i have made myself clear and dont wish to enter into further loop knowing as i know that it is futile and endless. much love.:-) devendra --- cerosoul <Pedsie2 wrote: > > Namaste, > > > > My experience in talking to spirits from time to > time, indicates > > that memory does survive as well as other sheaths > or kosas as well. > > The ultimate is that you don't exist but in the > meantime all the > > layers that prevent you from realising that do > exist or have > > validity. Nirvana is really the cessation of all > thought and > > therefore Liberation from > illusion..........ONS...Tony. > > Tony, what proof do you have you talk to spirits? > Can you admit > the possibilty that a part of your cortex is talking > to a deeper > until then untap part of the brain? I don't suppose > any of those > spirits could tell you the winning number for > SuperLotto next Sat? > I would be happy to split it with you, plus that > sure would make > me a believer in spirits too. How about it, pal? > > _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > Namaste, > > > > My experience in talking to spirits from time to time, indicates > > that memory does survive as well as other sheaths or kosas as well. > > The ultimate is that you don't exist but in the meantime all the > > layers that prevent you from realising that do exist or have > > validity. Nirvana is really the cessation of all thought and > > therefore Liberation from illusion..........ONS...Tony. > > Tony, what proof do you have you talk to spirits? Can you admit > the possibilty that a part of your cortex is talking to a deeper > until then untap part of the brain? I don't suppose any of those > spirits could tell you the winning number for SuperLotto next Sat? > I would be happy to split it with you, plus that sure would make > me a believer in spirits too. How about it, pal? Namaste, Why do you take the more materialist route of thinking the brain contains the mind. That is like saying my hard-drive is the mind of my computer and not the operator. Why do you assume that spirits know more about the future than you do? Are you not an embodied 'ignorant' spirit? Some spirits have an ability to read the future to some extent as we all do, mainly because there isn't one, all is now. http://www.geocities.com/aoclery/talkingtodeadEilish.htm http://www.geocities.com/aoclery/Autobiography/sRosettaspeakstoNicole ..htm You may have to cut and paste if url is too long for this club. I have a lot more but there really is no point in wasting anymore energy on this subject in debate. There are psychological reasons why people deny the existence of spirits. Either because they fear the idea or they cannot achieve the communication themselves...ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 > > Namaste, > > Why do you take the more materialist route of thinking the brain > contains the mind. That is like saying my hard-drive is the mind of > my computer and not the operator. Why do you assume that spirits > know more about the future than you do? Are you not an > embodied 'ignorant' spirit? Some spirits have an ability to read the > future to some extent as we all do, mainly because there isn't one, > all is now. P: Why do you take the idealistic route? For psychological reasons too. You want continuity, immortality, you fear to die. You are not aware that what you call 'you' is dying every moment. That the brain recreates the " I " feeling from moment to moment. Basically, I believe the brain is real, and you believe spirits are real. It's just a matter of beliefs. The only difference is that I don't depend on my beliefs to feel good and secure, but I think you do. Pete > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > > > Namaste, > > > > Why do you take the more materialist route of thinking the brain > > contains the mind. > That is like saying my hard-drive is the mind of > > my computer and not the operator. Why do you assume that spirits > > know more about the future than you do? Are you not an > > embodied 'ignorant' spirit? Some spirits have an ability to read > the > > future to some extent as we all do, mainly because there isn't one, > > all is now. > > P: Why do you take the idealistic route? For psychological reasons > too. > You want continuity, immortality, you fear to die. You are not > aware that what you call 'you' is dying every moment. That the brain > recreates the " I " feeling from moment to moment. > Basically, I believe the brain is real, and you believe spirits are > real. It's just a matter of beliefs. The only difference is that I > don't depend on my beliefs to feel good and secure, but I think you > do. > > Pete Namaste, You sound similar to the neoadvaitins to me. There is no idealistic route, that is improper terminology. What is dying every moment isn't me at all, that's the entire point that you are missing. The 'I' feeling comes from outside the body, and is really a diminutive echo of the original 'I' feeling of the Universal Consciousness feeling of 'being'. I have no beliefs only experiences in the relative that is, in the absolute I experience nothing. You are the one with beliefs but the are aversive beliefs instead of attachments but they are attachment just the same for you are proud to own these ideas..........ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Tony OClery " <aoclery> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > Why do you take the more materialist route of thinking the brain > > > contains the mind. > > That is like saying my hard-drive is the mind of > > > my computer and not the operator. Why do you assume that spirits > > > know more about the future than you do? Are you not an > > > embodied 'ignorant' spirit? Some spirits have an ability to read > > the > > > future to some extent as we all do, mainly because there isn't > one, > > > all is now. > > > > P: Why do you take the idealistic route? For psychological reasons > > too. > > You want continuity, immortality, you fear to die. You are not > > aware that what you call 'you' is dying every moment. That the > brain > > recreates the " I " feeling from moment to moment. > > Basically, I believe the brain is real, and you believe spirits > are > > real. It's just a matter of beliefs. The only difference is that I > > don't depend on my beliefs to feel good and secure, but I think > you > > do. > > > > Pete > Namaste, > > You sound similar to the neoadvaitins to me. There is no idealistic > route, that is improper terminology. What is dying every moment > isn't me at all, that's the entire point that you are missing. > The 'I' feeling comes from outside the body, and is really a > diminutive echo of the original 'I' feeling of the Universal > Consciousness feeling of 'being'. I have no beliefs only experiences P: I don't doubt your brain has given you visions, and that you interpreted those visions according to your beliefs. Have you ever wonder why a Christian never has visions of Shiva, or a Hindu visions of Christ? > in the relative that is, in the absolute I experience nothing. > You are the one with beliefs but the are aversive beliefs instead of > attachments but they are attachment just the same for you are proud > to own these ideas..........ONS..Tony. P: So, when I discuss concepts which opposes yours, I am proud. But you being so sure of yours, is just humble acceptance of the clarity bestow on you by God. Is that it? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > P: I don't doubt your brain has given you visions, and that > you interpreted those visions according to your beliefs. > Have you ever wonder why a Christian never has visions of > Shiva, or a Hindu visions of Christ? > > > in the relative that is, in the absolute I experience nothing. > > You are the one with beliefs but the are aversive beliefs instead > of > > attachments but they are attachment just the same for you are proud > > to own these ideas..........ONS..Tony. > > P: So, when I discuss concepts which opposes yours, I am proud. > But you being so sure of yours, is just humble acceptance of > the clarity bestow on you by God. Is that it? > > Pete Namaste P, You are still confusing the mind with the brain. It is only an instrument. I try not to have concepts. You however are putting forth very mentally inflexible concepts in the negative, which in effect are aversive attachments. I am not sure of anything except that I know that I don't know. My own shared experiences show me that there are spirits and that yoga is on the right path with the kosas/sheaths of consciousness. This is my last post to you for I am aware that to reach and understanding of this one has to have a sadhana or practise...........ONS..Tony. P.S. Who is the Praneaswara that Maharaj says we are?????????/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Tony OClery " <aoclery> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote: > > > > > P: I don't doubt your brain has given you visions, and that > > you interpreted those visions according to your beliefs. > > Have you ever wonder why a Christian never has visions of > > Shiva, or a Hindu visions of Christ? > > > > > in the relative that is, in the absolute I experience nothing. > > > You are the one with beliefs but the are aversive beliefs > instead > > of > > > attachments but they are attachment just the same for you are > proud > > > to own these ideas..........ONS..Tony. > > > > P: So, when I discuss concepts which opposes yours, I am proud. > > But you being so sure of yours, is just humble acceptance of > > the clarity bestow on you by God. Is that it? > > > > Pete > > Namaste P, > > You are still confusing the mind with the brain. It is only an > instrumen I try not to have concepts. You however are putting > forth very mentally inflexible concepts in the negative, which in > effect are aversive attachments. I am not sure of anything except > that I know that I don't know. My own shared experiences show me > that there are spirits and that yoga is on the right path with the > kosas/sheaths of consciousness. This is my last post to you for I am > aware that to reach and understanding of this one has to have a > sadhana or practise...........ONS..Tony. No I'm aware of the difference between the brain and the mind. The brain is the machine. We call mind the functioning of that machine. Your brain gives you hallucinations, because it has a lick from the image making center to the rational cortex. It's probably genetic, since your daughter suffers from it too. You should be very skeptical of that, you have as much reason to believe those are real, as I have to believe that what I dreamed last night really happened. But if it makes you feel happy and secure, why not? Happy dreams! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.