God as a Divine Idea and a response to the post, The Mental Prison.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote:

> Pete:

> When you say you believe in God, what is really the situation?

> The situation is that you don't believe in God, you believe only

in

> your ideas about God, and furthermore, you trust that those ideas

> correspond to a reality outside your mind. The chances that the

> finite human mind could grasp the infinite and translate it into

> words are almost none.

>

> Ideas are a powerful stimulant, they can fire up emotion,

> passion, love. This love for the divine can still the activity

> of the mind and provoke feelings of joy and exaltation. And so

> a divine loop is created, in which religious ideas induce

> ecstasy, and this bliss reinforces faith in those very ideas.

>

> Any idea of God is a limitation of the infinite. Any identity

> is a boundary. If you think Jesus, Shiva, " the Self " is God,

> you have limited God. Any identity no matter how sublime

> can't not be 'that which is.' That which is, must be left

> undefined, unnamed, and alone.

>

> Pete

 

 

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Hi Pete,

Thank you for your words here. The angle in which you look at

things has helped me to see things in a different way altogether.

Thanks for that. I started to type up a response, because your

message brought a lot of things to my attention, and I learned a

lot of things as I was typing the response. It's really long,

(I'm

not good with putting ideas into words) but I wanted to share it

with you,,,if you can slug through it.

 

 

To your above message I would add:

 

if you think love is God,

you have also limited God.

 

Herein lies one of the biggest dilemmas. A final letting go of an

idea - an idea of or about love, which is perhaps one of the

greatest illusions of all time, and one of the original catalysts

that perpetuates ideas and identities, and great limitations. And,

a catalyst for the endless acts of rejection with purpose of

attaining this love and bliss/joy state.

 

Love is a by-product, a result, an effect from a cause - as in cause

and effect. Love is not absolute. It is an emotion and isn't

necessary to creation. One can create for the sake of creation, and

not necessarily be attached to the outcome or response in any

emotional way – love included. The conflicting identities people

place on the idea and emotion of love is the very thing that keeps

people locked in the rejection process. They are all in conflict

with each other on so many levels. Perhaps the reason why the Love

identity presents the biggest conflict of all, is because it puts a

person into the message of " love is all, all is love, love is

god " .. Now just try to wrap the brain around rejecting

love/all/god/all AND accept love/love is god/all. This kind of

message serves to split the person off into even greater altered

state, and internal and external war ensues. And in this way Pete,

it causes the very thing you mentioned,,, when these ideas loop back

on each other, and the person is left riding the merry-go-round.

It puts a person into a state of trying to attain all/love, while at

the same time rejecting certain other things,,,but all those

certain things are also love by the persons own definition.

Because if one actually believed the idea that " all " is love, then

there is nothing to war against, or to reject. How can love war

against love, something which is itself? If one lets go of a big

identity of love as being all, then your absolutely right Pete,

the only thing you are left with is

YOU,,,

 

Energy

Consciousness

Creation

 

All the billions of creations and experiences stemmed from that.

 

Identity in itself isn't the thing in question – identity is

important for conscious understanding, and therefore to evolution,

but it's the clinging to identity and resisting of change, and

the

fear and closed state that is often produced when people get

attached to the identity- this is usually what causes disturbances

because it limits further potential. It perpetuates a closed state

rather than an open state thereby defeating it's very purpose.

 

You said in your post , " That which is, must be left

undefined,

unnamed, and alone. " I see this as a potential for another means

of

escape and a form of limitation too. It limits one by the very act

of NOT doing anything about it and avoiding it altogether. It

becomes a limit in another direction. Spiritual practices are

probably the hardest place to recognize the altered ego at work,

because it hides very nicely behind so many of the practices and

results that are promised to be forthcoming or not forthcoming.

The altered ego will protect itself at any cost. The property of

creation is always in movement, in action, and it doesn't care

about defining or naming, and the energy properties don't care

either, but the consciousness property is built to evolve. It is

consciousness state that is interested in identity. Identity and

ideas/choices ARE what consciousness state Is. The clinging to them

in a closed and limited manner is what the unconscious state is.

 

Understanding gained from identity is what evolves the

consciousness. And evolution means change. This is what the

Buddhist means by the state called impermanence. Why impermanence?

Because the very property of consciousness is to explore stuff from

all angles and identity is involved, and it changes when it shifts

it's exploration as a result of what it gained from identifying.

It

is the nature of the beast, so to speak. It's what " you "

do.

 

I also had adopted the idea that, " there are no questions " ,

but

this in itself is a limit too, and eventually loops around on

itself again,,,because understanding IS the nature of

consciousness. This was just another way the altered ego state

gets to close down and limit. The consciousness state, by it's

very

nature looks at things with the purpose to discover more.

 

Will consciousness ever reach a point or place where it stops

evolving, changing and redefining what it creates and chooses for

experience? It hasn't so far, and the fact that we're

sitting here

is testament of that. The altered ego state produces the fear that

keeps the limitations in place so evolution will be harder because

altered ego dislikes change. Change means it will disappear to some

degree so it clings on to the things that can define it and keep it

alive, while simultaneously closing it down. The very thing that it

uses to try keep it alive is the very thing that produces the mysery

it tries to escape from,,,it tries to thwart change, and that's

why

it loops back on itself like this and creates it's very prison

that

it can't escape. Spiritual practices are probably the hardest

place to recognize the altered ego at work, because it hides very

nicely behind so many of the practices and results that are promised

to be forthcoming, while simultaneously rejecting them.

 

 

Anyhow, Al believes choice is conflict, Alberto rejects thought as

conflict. They both have rejected the mind processes. Oooow,

that's a powerful choice. They don't consciously even know

the

outcome of what their choosing. The body hears all these mixed

messages and honestly doesn't know what to do anymore. The

mind /thought /brain process is an important component for choice.

It's how consciousness works in the physical state. Then that

very thing that is necessary to understand, identify and create

becomes rejected and internal and external war ensues as the person

once again goes into conflict by rejecting something and needing

that very thing that they're rejecting.

 

For, Al, how can you have any consciousness about choice when you

are busy rejecting it and saying choice is conflict. You are

conscious of choice as being conflict, and you're sending this

message, so you will experience this conflict as a result. Choice

isn't conflict. " What " you choose or don't choose

and how you

identify or don't identify is the thing that produces the

conflicted experience and subsequently either the closed or open

nature is the thing that keeps you trapped in that unconscious

prison mind place. The freedom you say you want the mind to attain

is also a limit. You want to free your mind? But the mind

component is an important part of how you get there. So,

essentially, you're saying you want to shoot the horse before it

gets you to your destination. This sends tremendous mixed messages

to your entire system, and war of conflict, both externally and

internally ensue. In effect the very freedom that you want your mind

to attain ends up not being achieved.

 

Instead of rejecting, it could be more productive to use the

method of recognizing and releasing. Releasing is a conscious

action and state, whereas rejection is more unconscious.

Unconsciousness is a component of the altered ego state and

that's

why people want to become awakened or enlightened, to move into

consciousness which is the original " you " . However, this

method can

be really difficult for most people to use, because it involves

quite a high amount of conscious identification, and most people

have low consciousness, and so that's why " I am that "

can be a

more practical and workable and easier method to apply then some

other methods such as `suspension', because this allows you

to

open up without limits. (In past I've used the word

" embrace " and

it's not a correct description. Perhaps the word Conscious

Acceptance really is more of an accurate description.) Releasing

isn't the same as rejecting because it involves accepting.

Recognizing is a form of identity toward things/experiences, and the

acceptance of things allows one to open into a more conscious state

and allows one to release. The non-acceptance is what causes one

to reject and cling. Therefore acceptance and rejection are at

constant war with each other, as in the example of love being All,

and, as an example of rejecting the mind. It is the result of using

the method called " I am NOT that. " To use the method, " I

am neither

this nor that " is another way of saying, " I am not that, "

and is

equally confusing to the poor mind, and continues to send more mixed

messages, which perpetuates the looping back on itself. Because the

mind sees that as splitting, it sees that you really ARE this and

that, and it all gets registered into the system as a big lie. So,

the loop continues again. Part of the brain/mind/thought says that

such and such isn't reality, part says, well, it's happening,

so it

is reality. Then comes the internal war.

 

When " I am that " is ACTUALLY applied it can lead to the exact

method

of recognizing and releasing with greater consciousness. If I use

the " I am That " method, it brings me to one level of

consiousness,

which yes is a limit, but if I stay open to accepting, then it takes

me to the other level of consiousness,,,and so on and so on. It is

the lack of openness which stops the flow of change and keeps people

locked in an unconscious state. When people attach identities to

things, and then become attached to the identity, such as the big

attachment to love, then they've just clouded their ability to

release. We see so many people have a hard time changing and

letting go of things when they no longer serve, or when they

don't

want them anymore. There's an old bible verse which says,

" behold

I stand at the door and knock and if anyone hears my voice he will

open the door…. " Why does the person have to open the door?

 

Because it was closed. If the door is opened there is no knocking

involved,,,it can just walk on in. The " I " refers to

consciousness state which involves identity and openness in order

for It/consciousness to come in.

 

You, are a creator by nature. It is one of the components that make

up " you " .

It follows that if you want to create something then you'll also

have to recognize and accept – not necessarily embrace – but

accept

that which you choose to create. That is what consciousness is --

awareness. The altered ego state is the anti-thesis of

consciousness – it is unaware because it doesn't understand

how it's

identities form it's choices which form it's experiences.

The chaos

ensues and then they feel like helpless victims.

 

When people become very busy rejecting this and that, and

identifying this and that as illusion, they get led on a merry

chase. But, that chase eventually leads back to the original idea in

the first place. And the word " chase " becomes replaced by the

word, " choice. " And the awakening that everyone is chasing after,

becomes a more conscious state. Conscious of what? Conscious of

choice and what they are identifying and how they are identifying

it, which affects their next choice. But it's not that they

must

not identify, it's that they must learn how to consciously

identify

on many different levels in order to get out of the mind prison they

believe their in.

 

Most people will say, oh that's kindergarten because we always

choose. People live most of their life from a place of unconscious

choice. Things/experiences happen and they aren't sure why. This

creates the karma which is there in order to play the same tape over

and over until they get the message and move into consciousness.

The master chooses consciously, and that is a big difference.

Altered ego keeps one out of consciousness and keeps one in

unconsciousness/not having a conscious understanding of what to do

with the 3 basic properties that make up " you. " Which are:

 

- energy

-consciousness (or varying degrees of unconsciousness/consciousness)

- creation

 

The 3 components are NOT actually separated at all but are one, but

it has been pulled apart so it can see itself and understand

itself.

 

The nature of creation is just to create. It's the level of

consciousness which drives the level of creation, and therefore

produces a certain level of experience. And, the level of human

experience indicates a low level of consciousness due to the

experiences it creates. Pete, in this way you are right when you say

that, " that which is must not be named, etc. " The creation

component in it's original state doesn't name anything. It

just

actively creates. It creates without any care or concern for what

is created. That is where many people realize that creation is

only in the present moment. Creation is action, and for that reason

it is in the state of the present moment. It's the

consciousness

component, the idea state, the curiosity state, which has pulled

itself into levels of unconsciousness so it can see and understand

exactly what it's creating and why and how. The consciousness

state

can move into the present and past or future, because it isn't

bound

by action. This is why people have difficulty understanding the

idea of everything happening in the present, and there also being a

future and a past. Consciousness by nature is curious and

interested. It has ideas and evolves it's understanding through

choices. It's what YOU are. It's the unconscious aspect

that

must use identity, because it is the whole purpose for being pulled

apart and dissected in the first place.

 

This interest and curiosity component of consciousness and

unconsciousness is the thing that causes and forms " ideas " and

labels to describe the way one thought about that idea and to

describe the way one 'experienced' that idea so it could understand

how choice, and creation of that choice, affects consciousness.

So, choice is also what consciousness is, and unconsciousness is a

lack of understanding how that choice creates.

 

 

So, back to the identity of love: The word love, is an emotion and

idea that only helps one to understand what it's created in order

to

help decide about the next choice. And those choices are based on

what you " liked/loved " or didn't " like/love " . So, the word " love "

then denotes a by-product sensory emotion that motivates the

curiosity which influences the next choice/creation/experience.

Curiosity and interest is a component of consciousness. It's

what

drives the universe (us). People confuse the words love, curiosity

and joy/bliss, and decide that bliss/joy is love. So, they go

chasing after, seeking after, the bliss/joy state, which is then

what loops them back, because it's not meant to be the end

product,

as in the be all end all, the goal. It's only a by-product type

of

emotion that helps figure out the curiosity and choice process which

leads to further consciousness evolvement.

 

Original first creation may have been accidental from the

perspective of the conscious state, which then led to a deep

curiosity and interest in this 'thing' that had been created.

Which then led to either a dislike, or like, and varying degrees of

love. This led to even further curiosity and interest. Which then

led to many identifications of that thing which was created - karma

emotions being one of the experiences, and love originated out of

an interest/curiosity in creating more. Interest in creating can

often lead to an obsession with it, which can influence one's

choices even further and set one into an even further unconscious

state. And thus began the wheel of life; the cycle of the universe.

 

The property that is called curiosity or interest, is not really an

emotion (like choice and change isn't an emotion). It IS

consciousness, and is a catalyst that drives it to creation.

Emotion is not an absolute and is not essential for creation or

consciousness. Because love is an emotion, it is a by-product,

changeable, and not absolute. Because creation is an action

state, this means that it really doesn't stop. People try to

stop

it by going into the void state, but the 3 components are not in

actuality separated, as people think they are - they are one state,

so even in the void state one must acknowledge/accept the part of it

that is consciousness and creativity, and that part will eventually

come to the foreground again, and again, because that is the nature

of the totality of what " YOU " are. Therefore, Identity, or

identifying is a component of choice and can be very helpful. If

you don't use it, the altered ego state (unconscious state) will

have difficulty making any sense of any of it…which is exactly

what

humans are experiencing here.

 

We decide we don't " love " cancer so much, so we decide not to choose

it. We become more conscious through this identity. We consciously

don't put the wheels of creation into motion that would produce

that

cancer. We know exactly what produces it. We learn what that

entails. We don't choose the idea of it. We don't create any

component that would bring it into the experience. This brings the

consciousness level into a different level as we learn what

constitutes choice.. Evolution is all about the levels of

consciousness + creation.

Those who do this " un " consciously, (the human race is a good

example) feel imprisoned. It is the level of unconsciousness that is

their prison. And, Al, who posted " the Mental prison "

says, " Free…..your…..mind…. "

And Alberto says, " I neeeeed to escape. "

 

But the very thing that keeps one in the conflict is the very thing

both Al and Alberto are doing, and that is " rejecting " .

(Please

understand that I don't mean any disrespect here. I respect

you're

ideas Al, and Albertino very much. Why? Because I know exactly what

you're experiencing.)

 

 

Separation or duality is not a big sin that should be rejected. As

Martha Stewart would say, it's a good thing. But, it's a good

thing

in so far as it serves it's purpose. It's not the act of

pulling

these properties apart, in the concept of duality, that is the real

core issue, but rather the issue is in closing to change when it

no longer serves it's purposes. Openness is needed, and more

precisely -openness to change is needed, in order for people to

release things that no longer serve it so they can go onto create

other things that do serve it. The Buddhist teaching of impermanence

is a by-product of Consciousness/choice and creation, which is

absolute, The " need to cling " to identity limits by

it's very

nature and generally throws a person into fear of change.

 

The altered ego state fears change in case part of it will

disappear, so it clings to limits that will restrict change. Yet,

it also dislikes the extreme helpless feeling when it can't

consciously be in charge and in control of all it's creation.

This

creates a desire to be separated/dual and a desire NOT to be

separated/dual, and this also can cause an internal war, because it

sends mixed messages to the brain and entire body and system.

 

The only thing that is absolute is the original matter of energy,

consciousness (or in most people it's semi-consciousness to

unconsciousness), and creation.

Choice and Curiosity is the active state of Consciousness.

 

Everything else is a by-product, and that's why it is impermanent.

 

An example of the 3 components of You, in relationship to is this:

People often use the Buddhist philosophy of " the place between 2

thoughts " , as a method of enlightenment, whatever they define

that

word to mean, and honestly, most people aren't even sure what

they

define that word to mean, which causes mixed messages and

unattainment in itself. Really, they are only using it as a method

of escape and limitation to perpetuate the altered ego/unconscious

state. Here's why: The 2 thoughts, and the place between it are

actually symbolic of the 3 components of You. The space between

represents the void, or energy state. The thought on either side

represents consciousness state, and the creation state. If a

persons wish is to escape then they think they can go into the void

where all else will disappear and be gone. The very thing they

believe in – non-dualism- means not separated, and yet this is

the

very root thing their trying to do—separate from thought/mind by

going into the void. How disappointed they are when they discover

they can't hold that place indefinitely. It loops back on itself.

 

They can't hold it indefinitely because they are trying to escape

and don't understand that void/nothing space is hand in hand with

the other 2 components. For this reason it is going to loop back on

itself because it IS itself. Remember the consciousness and

creation are action and it's very nature is to be

" some " thing. So,

the pull back into action state eventually happens. It can't be

helped because that is what you are.

 

Choice then, is not the prison, it isn't a mental prison, but

rather the state of unconsciousness is more the prison, and the

limitations of that, and the identities we cling to feed into it

that, and perpetuate that level of unconsciousness. The person who

is rather unconscious of how to create feels like a victim in a

prison, because they have not learned how to 'consciously' work with

the original 3 aspects that is 'you'. They have become distracted

with the myriad of fancy displays of creation, and by-products,

like emotion, and the myriad thoughts that pop in the mind. They

want to control the mind or thought process, but ideas are the very

nature and cannot be controlled, because that is what consciousness

is – that is " YOU " . And they feel like a victim in

many ways.

But rejecting identity, and rejecting it all, will only serve to

prolong the victimization, and eventually it turns back on you to be

understood and accepted and learned from,,,because that's what

consciousness is all about. Again, the idea aspect IS the

consciousness. In order to direct the idea away from random

babbling thought, then mantras may be a good method, or whatever

works, but to stop it completely by rejecting it is only futile

because you can't stop YOU. You can bring thought out of an

unconscious place and into a consciously directed place, but you

can't stop it.

 

By the way, Pete, I enjoy Shiva, but I don't worship him as a

god.

He knows how to use the 3 components and that's why he's a

good

example for me, but only an example. He's my favorite and

that's why

I call myself a Shiva Diva. I enjoy Jesus (although many atheists

are now saying he was a myth) but I don't worship or follow him.

 

I enjoy Nisg. but I don't follow him either, I only use some of

the

ideas they present.

 

I just create, or not create. I can't say that act of creation

is

my God, because it's what I Am.

I still play with love sometimes. I do enjoy the feeling of joy.

The difference is one of consciousness. Discriminating conscious

acceptance can help to create openness.

 

If one lets go of creation, then they are left with consciousness

and energy components.

If one lets go of consciousness they are left with energy. Energy

is that NOthing that people like to chat about. It really

doesn't

do anything unless consciousness (either consciously or

unconsciously) does something with it. Energy on it's own does

Nothing, but here is the confusion, it does nothing, but it really

isn't accurate to say it is NOthing.

Science proves this when it shows that certain particles are non-

descript, but by actually looking at the particle and having a

specific idea about it(making a choice about it) can cause it to

change,,, examples of this in nature might be kind of like a

chameleon, or like stem cells. They are rather generic in and of

themselves, but when adapted to specific environments they take on

those specific properties. This property of energy is also the

field of unlimited potentiality. But even the label or identity of

nothing is a limitation, because upon further reflection we can see

that even that generic NOthing energy is still a " some "

thing. A

void is still " some'thing. By simple comparison we could see

that " something " has properties, therefore the absence of

properties is what defines the void/energy state,,,and that very

definition is a " something. " It's a brain teaser.

 

So, the master knows this, and knows energy, and understands the

nature of illusion, in terms of what it does or doesn't want to

create, and doesn't focus on the illusion of this or that at

all,

and in that way Pete, you are right about letting things go unnamed

and alone. It's the energy component of " you " that goes

unnamed.

Why does it go unnamed? Because it has no real quality until

consciousness gives it one. The master does it from a sense of

conscious understanding and not limiting out of fear of unknown,

etc. It's not that they must not identify, it's that they

must

learn how to identify in order to achieve the thing they want.

 

 

So, Illusion isn't the issue at all. People get distracted by

that

as well. The master knows there is nothing to reject. Why would

it reject the very thing that is part of it's creation and

consciousness process?? It would be about as nonsensical as an art

painter rejecting paint. The painter, paint and canvas again can be

used to represent the 3 components of You. And the illusion can

represent the thing/object that the painter is painting. He/she

knows the end result of the painting is not the `real' thing.

The

painting of the tree isn't really a tree. This illusory idea

doesn't even enter into the painters head, because it already

knows

that. Also, the painter doesn't reject the paint or the canvas,

it

simply doesn't use certain things, and it changes other things.

At

the end it decides weather it likes/loves it or not ( a by-product

emotion, and uses that to determine what it will or will not paint

next.) The interest to paint motivates it. That's why the by-

product appears to people as an illusion. It is transient and

changeable. But the original 3 components are not.

 

The only " real " thing is the original idea that sprang from

consciousness, all else returns to it's void state when it is no

longer held in consciousness. (Real as defined by the ability to

ascribe properties to it. All else is illusion but that is

irrelevant to the master, because the master isn't preoccupied

with

dissecting illusion, but preoccupied with creating the illusion.

The master understands how to create using the component of energy

and consciousness as a totality. The word illusion doesn't

enter

the picture, but the word choice does. The illusion is real enough

to serve it's creative purpose, and that is all consciousness is

really " Interested " in.

 

The energy component is a generic chameleon, taking on the ideas

of consciousness, and has actual purposes, therefore the master

doesn't say it " isn't real " . So, the idea of

" no-thing " is also

an error. It all has properties therefore it is a

" something " .

The identity of `nothing' is a property in itself. This

energy

therefore isn't limited and closed, but actually unlimited and

open.

 

The conscious master – YOU – is all of these 3 components and

KNOWS

it and doesn't reject that. That's one of the reasons for the

teaching that says one should go inside to find yourself. This

means that `YOU' are the 3 components of energy. You are

" it " .

Then, this aspect of You is like a magician pulling a rabbit out

of the hat. The hat represents the void, (called void because

it's

void of stuff.) It represents the energy that can take on any

aspect, but lies dormant until this takes place. Then, there is

the magician. She/he represents the consciousness. She/he is either

a conscious master, or an unconscious victim helplessly crying for

mercy. This consciousness is needed if something is going to be

pulled out of the hat (the void). Then, there is the rabbit. The

magician puts his hand in the hat and pulls out a rabbit. The

rabbit is the creation. So, to the master there is no conflict,

because in order to create and clothe his idea, she/he consciously

uses energy. And that energy isn't real on its own, per se,

but

the reality the consciousness gives it combines with the energy to

make the creation is real enough to serve its purpose. This is the

difference between the unconscious victim who is helpless because it

ends up unconsciously creating things – experiences and objects-

and doesn't understand the choice/action/interest dynamics behind

consciousness, therefore they choose one thing, then send mixed

messages to choose another, then something completely different

(because they aren't conscious that their ideas and choices are

creating the object/experience,)so all the mixed messages get

befuddled and they end up pulling stuff out of the hat without

having any clue. Or, these messages counteract and stalemate each

other, leaving the unconscious person even more confused.

 

The master doesn't reject but accepts. It only creates, or un-

creates. It releases or changes. It forms the energy together, or

it stops holding consciousness in the energy and pulls the energy

apart, back to the original state of energy, which is dormant and

generic (the thing people call NOthing). Fear holds hands with

rejection and keeps one locked in that mental prison, and it's

that

fear that holds onto the identities and doesn't let them change.

 

It keeps one out of consciousness and keeps one in

unconsciousness/not having a conscious understanding of what to do

with the 3 basic properties that make up " you. " The master

goes

into the place between 2 thoughts, the void/energy state, not to

escape, but to create. The escape is the altered ego idea, and

leads to closed state and painful evolution (suffering), as the

whole purpose of consciousness is to evolve through change Change

is what creation is all about. The master goes into the void

because change is what it is. And it now consciously chooses what

it wants to change/create.

 

 

So, if one rejects things, thereby limiting,,,then they've

taken

themselves out of the very nature of what they are,,,,which is

unlimited. And,,,the brain teaser is that we want to label or place

a limited identity on the energy aspect,,,so we call it

NOthing,,,but, all masters know this is not an accurate description

and only furthers the limitedness. In fact, it should actually be

called " everything " That's why when I think about it I

call it

either the void or the unlimited field of potential in which the

consciousness creates. In this way there is no limitation , but

rather openness. The energy in itself has a property and function.

The energy is used together with the other 2 other properties and

has it's own specific place in that.

 

Every culture has a way of identifying and humanizing these 3

properties, (God the father, son and Holy Ghost) Jesus as choice.

Jesus as son. In psychology they call it, the id, the super id and

the ego. The body calls it the mind, the brain and the thought.

Openness is very key. That's why it's said that a person can

grasp

consciousness in one second, or in 5 billion years. You know how

open you are by how long it takes for you to reach levels of

conscious state. You know how much altered ego state a person has

when they claim bragging rights that they spent 40 years in

sadhana. I wouldn't brag about such a thing. But, as one poster

said, most people REALLY DON'T want to achieve this

enlightenment

state that they're racing after. It's a very good game

though. I

believe it's the altered egos way of making it look like it's

all

righteous and wonderful, which is the other danger that can come

with this kind of thing…. (I'll go more into that further

on.) The

conscious mind sees through it, but the altered ego state can't

because it's too busy playing the game.

 

Weather one uses the phrase " I am that " as an acceptance

method,

or " I am NOT that " as a rejection method,,,either way it both

leads

to the same door. One is a path full of suffering emotions and

experiences and the other has far less. But, the one will not open

the door, because it is busy rejecting and closing it. The other

will open the door…it is busy opening. They are only methods of

helping one to come into consciousness – a conscious

understanding.

But, if one rejects thought/mind, then this process has the

physiological potential to present a little problem. (by problem I

mean opportunity for growth through mysery).

 

You see, the mind mechanism helps to process information

(thought/ideas) into a human form and assists the brain in sending

out physical sensory images (more ideas or even emotions) which

further assist in processing data. This helps the person to

`wrap

their brain' around it all so to speak. These 3 aspects work

together to form a bridge that bridges the gap between altered ego

state (or unconscious state) with conscious state. The thought,

mind, brain work together, (symbolic for consciousness, creation

and energy) so that a deeper consciousness can arise and take place

and be experienced. If one keeps sending rejection to the brain,

then you are sending more mixed messages. The brain circuits and

processes may shut down. It is taking the direction and message of

rejecting the physical mind and thought very seriously. This is not

some enlightened by-product of years in sadhana,,, (that would be

the altered ego's way of identifying the process so that it

always

looks good and righteous – it would say something like,

" I've spent

so long in sadhana that my mind is now entrained in a nothing

state) Often times this is only a disconnection of the 3 connective

components. Remember that ideas/choices are what creates. When the

brain is continually told that it is being rejected imbalances can

occur which can cause the 3 brain components to break down,

combined with the conflicting mixed message that is being sent to

the brain that says; the messages to accept love as all/god is

love, and, reject all (well all but love). You see how the prison

walls take shape???? Fact is, when the state is achieved whereby the

masters speak, the exact OPPOSITE happens. The components are honed

in ways that produce what people would call sheer brilliance. How

can you accept sheer brilliance that utilizes the mind/brain

components if it's continuously being told that it's not good

and

rejected. In a human body, the brain/mind/thought process offers

an avenue for " you " to be YOU, and do what YOU do – which

is,,,

consiousness and creation. Most people, seekers, want to destroy

it (thought) before consciousness has been reached. In fact it

defeats their very purpose.

 

It's like a person putting the cart before the horse. In this

case

the cart, horse and person represent the 3 components of YOU. The

person limits and closes it's very purpose if he/she puts the

cart

before the horse. Now they can't reach their destination (which

is

to move into some state of consiousness). Likewise, if the person

gets rid of the cart and rides the horse, their left with a cart

that is part of them, and still needs to get to the destination. If

a person shoots the horse (thoughts/idea producing component) then

they still don't get to their destination because this produces

a

closed state. This is an act of rejection.

 

In extreme cases, methods of rejection or mixed messages involving

acceptance and rejection, can cause conflict that has the

potential to cause chemical imbalances within the brain/mind/thought

mechanism. This can cause myriad of physical and mental effects,

from extreme bi-polar tendencies (google the word to find out what

bi-polar means) and various degrees of it, and even having

potential to cause schizophrenia, psychosis, dementia, etc. I

believe that many of the seniors who suffer from dementia have

actually managed to reject SO much of their life, and run away until

the only place they can run is literally " out of their mind. "

 

 

This is why the meditative and spiritual seekers traditionally have

been advised not to pursue meditative practices without a

teacher/guru type person and that they always check in with them,

because the teacher can identify things that the person can not.

 

And many people hide it all quite nicely under the guise and masked

called " seeking enlightenment. " This is why originally

masters say

not to talk about your practices with other people. It could

convolute it and cause more problems, but, they have a teacher to

guide them and they listen to what that teacher says could work for

that particular individual and they'll be fine. But, one of the

reasons why this board is now important, is because most people

decide to do this solo. A board like this can offer many different

angles and approaches and therefore " maybe " help alert a

person to

things that they themselves can't see,.,,to act as another pair

of

eyes and ears so to speak and common sense. This is why alternate

ideas such as Pete's are excellent. It gives different

perspectives.

But, the real clincher is that if a person is in rejection mode,

would they really be able to accept ideas at all? ,,, the

rejection perpetuates and feeds a limited state – closed.

Conscious/aware acceptance moves one into openness. Acceptance

isn't

really a limit, it's an open ended place. It only demands

conscious to obviously scrutinize (which involves identity) that

which doesn't serve the persons goal.

 

 

So, then you have Alberto who wants to go into Nirvana. He

can't

do it because the very method he uses is at conflict and war with

each other, and the very technique of rejection both limits AND

closes the very thing he wants. Because, he has already limited

himself to believing that his way is right and God is love. And,

Pete, as you said, that is a great limit indeed. If Nirvana is

the goal, then the method " I am that " or some other kind of

more

open ended accepting method would work to achieve the openness

necessary, rather than, " I am NOT that " all is god/love is

god/all

is love.

 

The altered state wishes to protect itself at all costs. Which is a

reason why Pete's words will not be met with much acceptance

here.

The altered ego is very busy rejecting,,,not accepting. The altered

ego will see Pete as the enemy,,,see him as attacking it. I get the

same response, people say all kinds of things about me. I don't

care. The very type of analytical thinking which Pete can offer

will end up being scrubbed. Therefore, people really are closed,

not open, and only accept that which already fits nicely into their

already formed identities and ideas.

It's not that the master doesn't come,,,it's that the student

doesn't recognize the master. The student thinks the master is a

fool, and walks right by. The altered ego verbally calls the master

a fool. (well, in olden days they used to hang them, crucify them,

or burn them as a witch, but that's another story.)

People aren't really looking for truth at all,,,their looking for

yet another identity of love, or whatever,,,and that keeps the whole

thing unconscious state perpetuating. Yet, they can't run away

from

themselves, and inside on some level they recognize what they really

are. They don't really want to be open. Therefore they will

reject

the very thing they need. Which is fine,,, swimming in the ocean of

confusion is just another option for experience. There's really

nothing " wrong " with swimming in confusion,,,it's just

that

eventually the arms get tired, and that's when the person says

they

need to escape the mind prison and find freedom.

 

Psychology has a different term to describe consciousness. It's

called common sense. That's what the master calls it, because

he/she has pulled back all the fancy identities that spiritual

groups have called it and understand through cause and effect what

they want to create and are open about it. It's also called

being

pragmatic, and that involves a certain amount of the word which is

called " being realistic " . Of course, if the altered ego

is

running from itself, from it's real " you " , then it will

not like to

use that dirty word called " reality " . Why? Because they

are only

open to the idea that reality doesn't exist and are closed to

exploring other ideas. Because they don't really want to change

at

all. They become like a dog with a bone in it's mouth. This is

how the war perpetuates,,,,this is how the prison walls keep getting

higher and higher with every brick we add to it. Rejecting

the `illusion' because it really doesn't exist only

furthers the

splitting off of the altered state. Then when they further desire

the nirvana state, or any other state which involves openness, they

get flabbergasted when it doesn't get achieved. That's why

the

concepts only stay swirling around in the mind as thought stuff,

because the altered ego never wants it to get further past thought

and into action. That would be it's funeral.

 

This is the reason why the master can release the reincarnation

process. It can consciously choose what it wants. So, this is

also why it can be true for some and not for others, because one

person may not choose it. For that master there is no more karma in

the sense that reincarnation defines it. But this involves

conscious choice, and this is also why people seek to become

awakened so they can stop the wheel of reincarnation, the wheel of

suffering. The unconscious state is driven by addictive nature,

and karma is only the by-product of an unconscious choice. When

using conscious choice there is no victim, because you know very

well what you're choosing and if you don't want it anymore

then you

change it. I already previously went over how limits produce fear

which prevents openness needed to provide that change. And, a

person may say this is all kindergarten, however, the application of

it still seems to elude them, so that very limit they've placed

then

also becomes the force that perpetuates their merry-go-round.

 

So, it becomes so difficult for people to walk their talk,

because their `talk'(beliefs/ideas) is pulling both legs in

opposite

directions. And, ouch, that hurts! And, more confusion and war

ensues. The only way they can deny the confusion is to go deeper

into the very thing that is creating it. And even deeper war can

often ensue.

 

 

A story to illustrate an example of rejection:

The most serious case of this rejection process that I've seen

is

taking place near Santa Fe New Mexico of how a man was so wrapped

in his goal. He knew all the terms, sayings, and scriptures. His

goal was bliss and love. He even changed his name to Ananda

Love. He had so completely gone through the identification

process and wanted so desperately to achieve the state of bliss. He

used sex as his method to achieve it. He developed an addiction

to sex. He spent a period of time every year in cave sadhana, and

3 months a year in India. He was a self entitled sadhu/monk and

calls himself the white baba. But, no matter how hard he tried,

he couldn't seem to adequately reach his goal.

As much as he spouted words that contained bliss, and smiled as

people called him Ananda, and expressed his pride in his

understanding of doctrine, he still couldn't measure up to his

identity of what bliss was. So, he was very proud of the idea that

he could go into Samadhi at will, and though I still really don't

know what that word means, I suspect it isn't bliss, as his life

produced nothing blissful about it. He also tried to use marijuana

to help induce this goal/state. He applied the idea " fake it til

you make it. " He thought that if he only believed he was a great

baba in bliss, then it would happen. What happened is that a great

division started to take place within his mind. You see, his words

were registering into his entire system as a lie. He was so

powerfully rejecting what he was, " the reality " , that it

completely

limited him and closed him down.

 

The result of the combination of the above was an extreme chemical

imbalance and mental disorder. He couldn't see " reality "

because

he was living in his own " illusion of non-illusion " The

goal and

teaching took on a world of their own. He believed that he had

reached these states, but also confessed to me that he hadn't.

Now,

talk about a mixed message! He'd put his hand on a persons

chakra

to raise energy up the spine and in a hand jerking movement bring

this energy up. He claimed he was a cure all. No one claimed

that but Him. He convinced himself that he had enlightened

powers. But, an internal war ensued. This resulted in a splitting

off within the brain to such extreme. He became so bi-polar to

the most extreme I've ever seen without going into the next step

of

schizophrenia. His moods swung to the extreme of being helpful,

spouting loving doctrines from any book he'd read,,,and giving

money to people in India - to with holding his loved ones from

taking a bath because the water bill would cost money. He developed

argumentativeness to the degree (which was only a manifestation of

his inner state) to such a degree that he couldn't hold ONE

relationship. He went through women because his personality went

from verbal aggressive/ dominant/controlling, to sweet and nice and

helpful. This created a desperate problem for him, because he was

also addicted to sex as his method of `enlightenment'. Yes,

that

was the self- righteous ego using god/religion to validate an

addiction that isn't commonly acceptable behavior in society.

 

I was called to go down to see if any assistance could be done.

Oh, he was thrilled to see me. He immediately told me I was his

soul mate and decided I must marry him. (this all after the 2nd

day) I told him that wasn't my purpose for being there. He

couldn't accept it. He rejected it. So, he tried to manipulate

me

in many ways to get me to do as he wanted. I talked to him about

his behavior but he only rejected that too. Why? Because he's

an

enlightened sadhu/monk who is in sadhana and knows all the divine

stuff. He can't be told anything, because he knows everything.

Essentially, he couldn't be reached because he was closed. He

had

placed limitations on himself through his own identities, and those

identities were driven by the altered ego, which were then wore

proudly as a badge on his chest. I left after 5 days. He then

said that my presence had caused an even further transcendence

within him and he has now added to his name the title of " bliss

Baba. " There is a big difference between enlightenment and

mental disorder. He hid his sex addiction by claiming it is a

method of enlightenment, by using tantric and kundalini to help him

achieve his joy/bliss goal.

 

To anyone who may think I'm over analyzing I would say that

I'm not

analyzing it at all. It's only information that I know, and that

is

all. The information was already there. The only part to do was

form it in some kind of coherent wording and type it. It's

hard

to put in words, so my words have had to repeat themselves in many

places so it could look at the same idea from different angles.

 

The altered ego state fears the thought process in case it might

become conscious and die a little. It hears it's funeral bells

ringing. The conscious state sees it as a wedding.

The master plays it all together like a fine tuned orchestra.

He/she doesn't release the orchestra players until the music has

finished. But most seekers are so buy rejecting the orchestra, and

the players, before the music is over. They don't realize that

they

need this in the present moment…their very busy looking forward

to

the goal (future),,,of enlightment,,,whatever they define that to

be, that they don't use the tools that are put before them to

help

achieve it. In this way they don't use it all together and the

music

is out of harmony and produces dischord. This rejection process

means they'll never really hear the music which is the very

purpose

of the orchestra. (I added this flowery analogy because I know

most of you like flowery stuff.)

 

Other people's altered ego state might say, " Donny's

being

judgmental " . It's another method used to protect itself.

If they

differentiate identification with judgment then maybe a spark of

consciousness might arise,,,which would cause the altered state to

be gone/be less than it is now,,,and again cause it's funeral.

It

can't have that. So, it's easier to attack and point out an

enemy,

or run away altogether and this way the altered ego state keeps

looking like the wonderful grand person who doesn't judge.

There's

a difference between consciousness and judging.

 

 

In caring and sharing,

 

~*~ Donny

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider "

<laughterx8@h...> wrote:

>

>

>

> In caring and sharing,

>

> ~*~ Donny

> 88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

 

Thanks for your kind words, Donny. Your thesis has

many good points. Now, if you want others to profit

by them, learn to say them in fewer words. When it

comes to get your point across, succinctness is next

to godliness.

 

With kind regards,

Pete

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider "

> <laughterx8@h...> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > In caring and sharing,

> >

> > ~*~ Donny

> > 88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

>

> Thanks for your kind words, Donny. Your thesis has

> many good points. Now, if you want others to profit

> by them, learn to say them in fewer words. When it

> comes to get your point across, succinctness is next

> to godliness.

>

> With kind regards,

> Pete

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

 

I used less words before, but it wasn't understood, in which case

it would appear that succinctness may be next to godliness, but it

also doesn't serve the purpose in getting the point across.

However, weather people profit from them is their own business.

 

in caring and sharing,

 

~*~ Donny

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " goldenrainbowrider "

<laughterx8@h...> wrote:

>

....

>

> Anyhow, Al believes choice is conflict, Alberto rejects thought as

> conflict. They both have rejected the mind processes. Oooow,

> that's a powerful choice. They don't consciously even know

> the

> outcome of what their choosing. The body hears all these mixed

> messages and honestly doesn't know what to do anymore. The

> mind /thought /brain process is an important component for choice.

> It's how consciousness works in the physical state. Then that

> very thing that is necessary to understand, identify and create

> becomes rejected and internal and external war ensues as the person

> once again goes into conflict by rejecting something and needing

> that very thing that they're rejecting.

>

> For, Al, how can you have any consciousness about choice when you

> are busy rejecting it and saying choice is conflict. You are

> conscious of choice as being conflict, and you're sending this

> message, so you will experience this conflict as a result. Choice

> isn't conflict. " What " you choose or don't choose

> and how you

> identify or don't identify is the thing that produces the

> conflicted experience and subsequently either the closed or open

> nature is the thing that keeps you trapped in that unconscious

> prison mind place. The freedom you say you want the mind to attain

> is also a limit. You want to free your mind? But the mind

> component is an important part of how you get there. So,

> essentially, you're saying you want to shoot the horse before it

> gets you to your destination. This sends tremendous mixed messages

> to your entire system, and war of conflict, both externally and

> internally ensue. In effect the very freedom that you want your

mind

> to attain ends up not being achieved.

 

Choice made from thinking based on the personal past is conflict. It

is obvious that a static and limited fragment cannot cope with the

immensity of unfolding life as a whole. Only when there is total

Choice will this illusion of a separate fragment controlling life

cease. By total Choice I mean direct effortless intuition which does

not negate individual choice, but rather embraces the fragmented 'I'

and releases it into a larger whole where true freedom dawns.

 

>

> Instead of rejecting, it could be more productive to use the

> method of recognizing and releasing. Releasing is a conscious

> action and state, whereas rejection is more unconscious.

 

Rejection of fragmented choice is the beginning of freedom.

 

....

 

>

> But the very thing that keeps one in the conflict is the very thing

> both Al and Alberto are doing, and that is " rejecting " .

> (Please

> understand that I don't mean any disrespect here. I respect

> you're

> ideas Al, and Albertino very much. Why? Because I know exactly what

> you're experiencing.)

 

Can you then also recognize that every choice made from the

fragmented 'I' is conflict?

 

/AL