Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 The world is not an illusion...... but any thing experienced through the perceptional filters of an identified entity..the supposed-self.....is an illusion. There is no way around this....and there is no way that the phantom can experience this. Any intellectual-conceptual " thought " is only a re-action that emerges from within the accumulated reservoir of an illusory self...that is....itself.... nothing more then solidified speculation. How....you ask......could a phantom....like toombaru know this? He has absolutely no idea........................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > The world is not an illusion...... Alberto: True, > but any thing experienced through the perceptional filters of an identified entity..the > supposed-self.....is an illusion. Alberto: False, the Ego is false, but " you " toombaru are true. There is the illusion that you are the ego and when the ego is seen there is no more ego. Just " you " remains. > There is no way around this....and there is no way that the phantom can experience this. Alberto: there is no phantom at all. When " you " think you are the phantom, " you " are the phantom. When the phantom is seen " you " see that the phantom is not " you " . and you laugh big time because " you " were indeed very stupid to think being a phantom. So Toombaru, what are you? a phantom, a computer, a shoe? :0) It's up to " you " . But you need to take a position Where are you, What are you, Who are you? I feel you are a wise man. You are the only one who knows. :0) > Any intellectual-conceptual " thought " is only a re-action that emerges from within the > accumulated reservoir of an illusory self...that is....itself.... nothing more then solidified > speculation. > > Alberto: Man, Toombaru!! You see what you are saying! You're illusory self is indeed very very powerful!! Is that power illusory after all? :0) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: >The world is not an illusion... >but any thing experienced through the perceptional filters of an >identified entity... the supposed-self... is an illusion. I am sorry, but I would like to make you aware of a significant flaw in your reasoning. If the world would be real (included yourself) and only YOUR filter system would disturb the perception of reality, then your perception would not be an illusion, it would be simply a more or less distorted reality. Furthermore it implies that YOU as the experiencer (identified entity) exist as a subject to the objective world. >There is no way around this....and there is no way that the phantom >can experience this. The distorted reality you have been talking about is a relative quantity. It can be relatively experienced. And if your premise is, that the world is NOT an illusion, you cannot call yourself a phantom. But even if you say everything is an illusion then the fact alone that you are able to make such a statement, proves: that there must be one part of YOU that is not part of this illusion. >Any intellectual-conceptual " thought " is only a re-action that >emerges from within the accumulated reservoir of an illusory self.. >that is... itself... nothing more then solidified speculation. THIS is exactly the illusion. You are believing YOU are an illusion but in reallity YOU ARE something else - something that you cannot grasp with your mind. The illusion is that you think you are the thinking. But already the mere fact that you are obviously aware that you are thinking proves that YOU are not the thinking. >How... you ask... could a phantom... like toombaru know this? >He has absolutely no idea... Toombaru is confused. But the moment when he will see who he REALLY is... in this moment he will receive the answer. All is one. S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Stefan, Do YOU see who you REALLY are ? Werner Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > >The world is not an illusion... > >but any thing experienced through the perceptional filters of an > >identified entity... the supposed-self... is an illusion. > > I am sorry, but I would like to make you aware of a significant flaw > in your reasoning. If the world would be real (included yourself) and > only YOUR filter system would disturb the perception of reality, then > your perception would not be an illusion, it would be simply a more or > less distorted reality. Furthermore it implies that YOU as the > experiencer (identified entity) exist as a subject to the objective > world. > > >There is no way around this....and there is no way that the phantom > >can experience this. > > The distorted reality you have been talking about is a relative > quantity. It can be relatively experienced. And if your premise is, > that the world is NOT an illusion, you cannot call yourself a phantom. > But even if you say everything is an illusion then the fact alone that > you are able to make such a statement, proves: that there must be one > part of YOU that is not part of this illusion. > > >Any intellectual-conceptual " thought " is only a re-action that > >emerges from within the accumulated reservoir of an illusory self.. > >that is... itself... nothing more then solidified speculation. > > THIS is exactly the illusion. You are believing YOU are an illusion > but in reallity YOU ARE something else - something that you cannot > grasp with your mind. The illusion is that you think you are the > thinking. But already the mere fact that you are obviously aware that > you are thinking proves that YOU are not the thinking. > > >How... you ask... could a phantom... like toombaru know this? > >He has absolutely no idea... > > Toombaru is confused. But the moment when he will see who he REALLY > is... in this moment he will receive the answer. > > All is one. > S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Stefan, > > Do YOU see who you REALLY are ? No, Werner, I can see it only through a veil. Maybe this veil is just my imagination... I dont know. I have tasted those drops of nectar... which have left me thirsty. I trust my master, who has become part of me. And I trust the community of those who have arrived... I am touching their feet. How about you, Werner. Do you see who you really are? All the best S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Same like you (but no master alive or dead), Stefan And I must confess I even don't know what that is, this " really me " . Surely, I have read enough about it to get my mind filled with concepts and I hope that no one reading this lines will try to explain it again to me - enough is enough But, one year ago uninvited and without any warning I fell for a short time into a state where I suddenly realized that I do not exist. It was not intellectual, no it was real. It was so obvious that I wondered why I haven't seen that before. Since that I was reading what I could find and searching the web about " not existing " til some months ago after a longer abstinence when visinting this list again I saw Pete's post " Nada con carne " which let me jerk and in addition his new nick " cerosoul " gave me a feeling of being a bit home again ... I personally am no longer interested in the Self or awakening or eternal now and all that stuff but my only interest is this " no existing " . What about this " master " you mentioned ? If you like tell me more about her/him. Werner Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > > Stefan, > > > > Do YOU see who you REALLY are ? > > No, Werner, I can see it only through a veil. Maybe this veil is just > my imagination... I dont know. I have tasted those drops of nectar... > which have left me thirsty. I trust my master, who has become part of > me. And I trust the community of those who have arrived... I am > touching their feet. > > How about you, Werner. Do you see who you really are? > > All the best > S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: >Same like you (but no master alive or dead), Stefan > >And I must confess I even don't know what that is, this " really me " . >Surely, I have read enough about it to get my mind filled with >concepts and I hope that no one reading this lines will try to >explain it again to me - enough is enough Haha, I understand! And I will leave you in peace! >But, one year ago uninvited and without any warning I fell for a >short time into a state where I suddenly realized that I do not >exist. It was not intellectual, no it was real. It was so obvious >that I wondered why I haven't seen that before. Since that I was >reading what I could find and searching the web about " not existing " >til some months ago after a longer abstinence when visinting this >list again I saw Pete's post " Nada con carne " which let me jerk and >in addition his new nick " cerosoul " gave me a feeling of being a bit >home again ... I am listening. I have heard about quite a few people who had the experience of non existence, or having no identity (I am not sure if this is the same, but I think so). I remember that I was very much impressed by a book called " collision with the infinite " by Suzanne Segal (there is also a German version). She was quite puzzled by this experience and really went through an Odyssey, for years. I also have a small text by Nathan Gill, called " Clarity " . Do you know it? He describes this experience as something he finally left behind. If you like I can upload this text to the files area. >I personally am no longer interested in the Self or awakening or >eternal now and all that stuff but my only interest is this " no >existing " . I see. I am courious... if my question is not too indiscrete or personal: Since you are interested in this " no existing " , was this experience revealing something to you that would make this state preferable from the state you are in as " Werner Woehr " ? Or is it more the urge to understand what you have experienced? >What about this " master " you mentioned ? If you like tell me more >about her/him. My Master has left his body around 15 years ago. I dont feel like talking about him here... He has opened me up. He also made me see the whole Vedanta stuff not as a theory or idea, but as a living tradition. He made clear to me that all " experiences " are not the real thing. And when I read something from Nisargadatta now, I remember how it is to sit in front of a living master. The really important message is not in the words. Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 > > Stefan, > > Do YOU see who you REALLY are ? > > No, Werner, I can see it only through a veil. Maybe this veil is just > my imagination... I dont know. I have tasted those drops of nectar... > which have left me thirsty. I trust my master, who has become part of > me. And I trust the community of those who have arrived... I am > touching their feet. > > How about you, Werner. Do you see who you really are? > > All the best > S. ************************************************** Dear achileas, Yes you are " seing " through a veil, for now, only for now, it depends on what you want, more or is it enough. You say: I have tasted those drops of nectar... > which have left me thirsty. You sure did :0) John 4 :: King James Version : Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. 7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Hi Stefan, Some years ago I have read that book of Suzanne Segal in German and it sits still on my book shelf. It was shocking and disturbing to read her and defenitely not romantic. But it was not the same as I experienced. This " Werner Woehr " still was there, the mind was chattering as ever, but hmm, I did not exist, And this not-exiting was a total secure place or state and within one second I understood or better I " saw " that all suffering of mankind had its origin in identifying with existence. During that " experience " I had to laugh and chuggle all the time, not because it was so funny but rather because there was a constant flow of energy I only could handle by laughing. Maybe you see now that this thing is pretty attractive Ok, I can accept that you don't want to write about your master, it is fine that way. Werner Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > >Same like you (but no master alive or dead), Stefan > > > >And I must confess I even don't know what that is, this " really me " . > >Surely, I have read enough about it to get my mind filled with > >concepts and I hope that no one reading this lines will try to > >explain it again to me - enough is enough > > Haha, I understand! And I will leave you in peace! > > >But, one year ago uninvited and without any warning I fell for a > >short time into a state where I suddenly realized that I do not > >exist. It was not intellectual, no it was real. It was so obvious > >that I wondered why I haven't seen that before. Since that I was > >reading what I could find and searching the web about " not existing " > >til some months ago after a longer abstinence when visinting this > >list again I saw Pete's post " Nada con carne " which let me jerk and > >in addition his new nick " cerosoul " gave me a feeling of being a bit > >home again ... > > I am listening. I have heard about quite a few people who had the > experience of non existence, or having no identity (I am not sure if > this is the same, but I think so). I remember that I was very much > impressed by a book called " collision with the infinite " by Suzanne > Segal (there is also a German version). She was quite puzzled by this > experience and really went through an Odyssey, for years. I also have > a small text by Nathan Gill, called " Clarity " . Do you know it? He > describes this experience as something he finally left behind. If you > like I can upload this text to the files area. > > >I personally am no longer interested in the Self or awakening or > >eternal now and all that stuff but my only interest is this " no > >existing " . > > I see. I am courious... if my question is not too indiscrete or > personal: Since you are interested in this " no existing " , was this > experience revealing something to you that would make this state > preferable from the state you are in as " Werner Woehr " ? Or is it more > the urge to understand what you have experienced? > > >What about this " master " you mentioned ? If you like tell me more > >about her/him. > > My Master has left his body around 15 years ago. I dont feel like > talking about him here... He has opened me up. He also made me see the > whole Vedanta stuff not as a theory or idea, but as a living > tradition. He made clear to me that all " experiences " are not the real > thing. And when I read something from Nisargadatta now, I remember how > it is to sit in front of a living master. The really important message > is not in the words. > > Greetings > Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: Werner, I'm very happy for you. Yes, my friend, you are home. Abide there in that " not beingness that is true being. " Some will ask, how? There is no how. When the false is known, then the false has lost it power to decieve, and then, even in the mist of the false, we are home. Pete > > > > > Same like you (but no master alive or dead), Stefan > > And I must confess I even don't know what that is, this " really me " . > Surely, I have read enough about it to get my mind filled with > concepts and I hope that no one reading this lines will try to > explain it again to me - enough is enough > > But, one year ago uninvited and without any warning I fell for a > short time into a state where I suddenly realized that I do not > exist. It was not intellectual, no it was real. It was so obvious > that I wondered why I haven't seen that before. Since that I was > reading what I could find and searching the web about " not existing " > til some months ago after a longer abstinence when visinting this > list again I saw Pete's post " Nada con carne " which let me jerk and in > addition his new nick " cerosoul " gave me a feeling of being a bit home > again ... > > I personally am no longer interested in the Self or awakening or > eternal now and all that stuff but my only interest is this " no > existing " . > > What about this " master " you mentioned ? If you like tell me more > about her/him. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Stefan, > > > > > > Do YOU see who you REALLY are ? > > > > No, Werner, I can see it only through a veil. Maybe this veil is > just > > my imagination... I dont know. I have tasted those drops of > nectar... > > which have left me thirsty. I trust my master, who has become part > of > > me. And I trust the community of those who have arrived... I am > > touching their feet. > > > > How about you, Werner. Do you see who you really are? > > > > All the best > > S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 > > I personally am no longer interested in the Self or awakening or > eternal now and all that stuff but my only interest is this " no > existing " . > > What about this " master " you mentioned ? If you like tell me more > about her/him. > > Werner devi: ok, this says all i need to know about you...moron > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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