Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Can a person choose not to believe in free will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > " Choice " requires the conceptual separation of the infinite-chain- of > >causation into separate distinct entities... from whom this supposed > >self may choose. > > Hey, what are you talking about? The question was: > " Can a person choose not to believe in free will? " > > A Person (like Toombaru, or like Stefan)is functioning through a > dualisticly conditioned and identified mind. So much you have > understood. But a so called " choice " is nothing else than another > thought coming up. It requires nothing. It is simply the way the brain > functions. Thats all. YOU have no control over that process, and > neither does it require anything except a living, functioning brain. > The only intelligent thing we can do is to " wait " for those choices to > come and go, and relax. Why another dualistic theory again? > > >There is no separation......in the universe. > >Everything is the cause of everything. > >Everything is the effect of everything. > > Maybe this is true, but maybe not! But there is a separation in your > brain! Still you cannot see this? Why are you arguing and fighting > against the breain... with the brain? For what? As long as YOU cannot > say how YOU found this out such sentences are simply silly poetry > meant to soothe the mind for a good sleep tonight. > > Greetings > S. Of course, you are right, but you are butting your brain against the Toomwall. This same discussion is going on in another list, and I just made the same argument, but this discusion has been going on for years, and will never be settled. See below: The illusion of choice is the only glue that binds the entity. > > > ===There's a more basic and more pernicious glue than that: > the intuition of being a separate subject. For example, a > " choiceless locus of consciousness " is still under the > duress and illusion of entity-hood, even though lacking > the illusion of choice. > > All " choosers " are separate subjects, but not all separate > subjects are choosers. All of them, however, are " entities. " > > --Greg A computer can be programmed to make the best choice. So awareness is not an issue in choice, freedom is not an issue, and a subject is not an issue in choice, either. Choice is quite impersonal and unfree. It's the brain which falsily credits an imaginary entity with having selected. This credit is just an after-thought. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 to think you have, as well as to think you don't have a choice, is an ilusion. the question is meaningless as well as the answer, including this one. Kip Almazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 the same applies for separation as well as for non-separation .....discussing the wedding of the daughter of a barren woman .....including this here, too. rgds Miss Conception Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 > Miss Conception for the spanish parlants: Doña Conchita! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > the same applies for separation as well as for non-separation > > ....discussing the wedding of the daughter of a barren woman > > ....including this here, too. > > > rgds > Miss Conception Factor out the entity.......and " free will " ...... " separation " and everything conceptual........evaporates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 retrospectively there is no choice for the subject, prospectively there is only choice! that easy! nothing esoteric nor other kinds of sh*t! Kip Almazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , " stuartkfmn " <stuartkfmn wrote: > > I am new to this list. I have been working on other approaches to > " awakening for the past 40 years. These other practices have done > wonders for me in terms of what I can know or experience, but I am no > closer to waking up than I was as a teenager. > > I read a book by Nisargadatta several years ago and worked hard on > sensing what he was trying to teach. > All I accomplished was to become more confused and more polarized. > > The polarization I fell deeper into was " self/no self " . By the time I > finished reading the book I was a " self/no self " monster... > > I came to realize that an ego can't pull himself up off of the ground > by grabbing his feet with his hands and lifting... it doesn't work:- ) > > Now I feel that all things: matter, energy, space, time, personality > or ego, finiteness, etc; is what I call " MIND " . > And that the escape door to this MIND does not open from the inside. > It only opens from the outside... > But outside of " MIND " is " NO THINGNESS " , so no one is there to open > any doors... > > I feel that bliss or serenity is also within MIND and is not true > awakening or enlightenment... and that there is no such thing as being > " close " to enlightenment. > > I feel that total absolute (by " absolute " I mean non- dual or > infinite), death of self is not achievable. That an ego can only > achieve or fail to achieve, it can't simply no longer exist because it > is in a state of neither existing nor not existing. > > I see myself as a mirror that is full of images and that I believe > myself to be those images... > > I also feel that... and this is strange... that even though I suffer > the duality of " dukkah " ; that somehow all is as it should be, that all > is ok... but yet I suffer... How can everything be ok if I suffer? > > It is like I am in both states at the same time, on both sides of the > door, awake and asleep! > > So... > Does anyone have any suggestions for me? :-) > > Stu > And now watch out how many people here who are not awakened will tell you what you made wrong. Werner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , " stuartkfmn " <stuartkfmn wrote: > > I am new to this list. I have been working on other approaches to > " awakening for the past 40 years. These other practices have done > wonders for me in terms of what I can know or experience, but I am no > closer to waking up than I was as a teenager. > > I read a book by Nisargadatta several years ago and worked hard on > sensing what he was trying to teach. > All I accomplished was to become more confused and more polarized. > > The polarization I fell deeper into was " self/no self " . By the time I > finished reading the book I was a " self/no self " monster... > > I came to realize that an ego can't pull himself up off of the ground > by grabbing his feet with his hands and lifting... it doesn't work:- ) > > Now I feel that all things: matter, energy, space, time, personality > or ego, finiteness, etc; is what I call " MIND " . > And that the escape door to this MIND does not open from the inside. > It only opens from the outside... > But outside of " MIND " is " NO THINGNESS " , so no one is there to open > any doors... > > I feel that bliss or serenity is also within MIND and is not true > awakening or enlightenment... and that there is no such thing as being > " close " to enlightenment. > > I feel that total absolute (by " absolute " I mean non- dual or > infinite), death of self is not achievable. That an ego can only > achieve or fail to achieve, it can't simply no longer exist because it > is in a state of neither existing nor not existing. > > I see myself as a mirror that is full of images and that I believe > myself to be those images... > > I also feel that... and this is strange... that even though I suffer > the duality of " dukkah " ; that somehow all is as it should be, that all > is ok... but yet I suffer... How can everything be ok if I suffer? > > It is like I am in both states at the same time, on both sides of the > door, awake and asleep! > > So... > Does anyone have any suggestions for me? :-) > > Stu > Hi Stu, suggestion? about what?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " stuartkfmn " <stuartkfmn@> > wrote: > > > > I am new to this list. I have been working on other approaches to > > " awakening for the past 40 years. These other practices have done > > wonders for me in terms of what I can know or experience, but I am > no > > closer to waking up than I was as a teenager. > > > > I read a book by Nisargadatta several years ago and worked hard on > > sensing what he was trying to teach. > > All I accomplished was to become more confused and more polarized. > > > > The polarization I fell deeper into was " self/no self " . By the > time I > > finished reading the book I was a " self/no self " monster... > > > > I came to realize that an ego can't pull himself up off of the > ground > > by grabbing his feet with his hands and lifting... it doesn't work:- > ) > > > > Now I feel that all things: matter, energy, space, time, personality > > or ego, finiteness, etc; is what I call " MIND " . > > And that the escape door to this MIND does not open from the > inside. > > It only opens from the outside... > > But outside of " MIND " is " NO THINGNESS " , so no one is there to open > > any doors... > > > > I feel that bliss or serenity is also within MIND and is not true > > awakening or enlightenment... and that there is no such thing as > being > > " close " to enlightenment. > > > > I feel that total absolute (by " absolute " I mean non- dual or > > infinite), death of self is not achievable. That an ego can only > > achieve or fail to achieve, it can't simply no longer exist because > it > > is in a state of neither existing nor not existing. > > > > I see myself as a mirror that is full of images and that I believe > > myself to be those images... > > > > I also feel that... and this is strange... that even though I suffer > > the duality of " dukkah " ; that somehow all is as it should be, that > all > > is ok... but yet I suffer... How can everything be ok if I suffer? > > > > It is like I am in both states at the same time, on both sides of > the > > door, awake and asleep! > > > > So... > > Does anyone have any suggestions for me? :-) > > > > Stu > > > > Hi Stu, > > suggestion? > about what?!? Every sage knows that the answer is " in " the question. There is no such thing as an impossible problem or enigma. The only thing that makes a solution " impossible " is the route used to find it. If you're going off on circuitous paths that lead nowhere, then nowhere is where you'll end up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " stuartkfmn " <stuartkfmn@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I am new to this list. I have been working on other approaches to > > > " awakening for the past 40 years. These other practices have done > > > wonders for me in terms of what I can know or experience, but I > am > > no > > > closer to waking up than I was as a teenager. > > > > > > I read a book by Nisargadatta several years ago and worked hard on > > > sensing what he was trying to teach. > > > All I accomplished was to become more confused and more polarized. > > > > > > The polarization I fell deeper into was " self/no self " . By the > > time I > > > finished reading the book I was a " self/no self " monster... > > > > > > I came to realize that an ego can't pull himself up off of the > > ground > > > by grabbing his feet with his hands and lifting... it doesn't > work:- > > ) > > > > > > Now I feel that all things: matter, energy, space, time, > personality > > > or ego, finiteness, etc; is what I call " MIND " . > > > And that the escape door to this MIND does not open from the > > inside. > > > It only opens from the outside... > > > But outside of " MIND " is " NO THINGNESS " , so no one is there to > open > > > any doors... > > > > > > I feel that bliss or serenity is also within MIND and is not true > > > awakening or enlightenment... and that there is no such thing as > > being > > > " close " to enlightenment. > > > > > > I feel that total absolute (by " absolute " I mean non- dual or > > > infinite), death of self is not achievable. That an ego can only > > > achieve or fail to achieve, it can't simply no longer exist > because > > it > > > is in a state of neither existing nor not existing. > > > > > > I see myself as a mirror that is full of images and that I believe > > > myself to be those images... > > > > > > I also feel that... and this is strange... that even though I > suffer > > > the duality of " dukkah " ; that somehow all is as it should be, > that > > all > > > is ok... but yet I suffer... How can everything be ok if I > suffer? > > > > > > It is like I am in both states at the same time, on both sides of > > the > > > door, awake and asleep! > > > > > > So... > > > Does anyone have any suggestions for me? :-) > > > > > > Stu > > > > > > > Hi Stu, > > > > suggestion? > > about what?!? > > Every sage knows that the answer is " in " the question. There is no > such thing as an impossible problem or enigma. The only thing that > makes a solution " impossible " is the route used to find it. If you're > going off on circuitous paths that lead nowhere, then nowhere is > where you'll end up. > ....to be continued... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " > <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " stuartkfmn " <stuartkfmn@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I am new to this list. I have been working on other approaches > to > > > > " awakening for the past 40 years. These other practices have > done > > > > wonders for me in terms of what I can know or experience, but I > > am > > > no > > > > closer to waking up than I was as a teenager. > > > > > > > > I read a book by Nisargadatta several years ago and worked hard > on > > > > sensing what he was trying to teach. > > > > All I accomplished was to become more confused and more > polarized. > > > > > > > > The polarization I fell deeper into was " self/no self " . By the > > > time I > > > > finished reading the book I was a " self/no self " monster... > > > > > > > > I came to realize that an ego can't pull himself up off of the > > > ground > > > > by grabbing his feet with his hands and lifting... it doesn't > > work:- > > > ) > > > > > > > > Now I feel that all things: matter, energy, space, time, > > personality > > > > or ego, finiteness, etc; is what I call " MIND " . > > > > And that the escape door to this MIND does not open from the > > > inside. > > > > It only opens from the outside... > > > > But outside of " MIND " is " NO THINGNESS " , so no one is there to > > open > > > > any doors... > > > > > > > > I feel that bliss or serenity is also within MIND and is not > true > > > > awakening or enlightenment... and that there is no such thing > as > > > being > > > > " close " to enlightenment. > > > > > > > > I feel that total absolute (by " absolute " I mean non- dual or > > > > infinite), death of self is not achievable. That an ego can > only > > > > achieve or fail to achieve, it can't simply no longer exist > > because > > > it > > > > is in a state of neither existing nor not existing. > > > > > > > > I see myself as a mirror that is full of images and that I > believe > > > > myself to be those images... > > > > > > > > I also feel that... and this is strange... that even though I > > suffer > > > > the duality of " dukkah " ; that somehow all is as it should be, > > that > > > all > > > > is ok... but yet I suffer... How can everything be ok if I > > suffer? > > > > > > > > It is like I am in both states at the same time, on both sides > of > > > the > > > > door, awake and asleep! > > > > > > > > So... > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions for me? :-) > > > > > > > > Stu > > > > > > > > > > Hi Stu, > > > > > > suggestion? > > > about what?!? > > > > Every sage knows that the answer is " in " the question. There is no > > such thing as an impossible problem or enigma. The only thing that > > makes a solution " impossible " is the route used to find it. If > you're > > going off on circuitous paths that lead nowhere, then nowhere is > > where you'll end up. > > > > ...to be continued... and we will return to our episode after these few messages......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , " stuartkfmn " <stuartkfmn wrote: > > I am new to this list. I have been working on other approaches to > " awakening for the past 40 years. These other practices have done > wonders for me in terms of what I can know or experience, but I am no > closer to waking up than I was as a teenager. > > I read a book by Nisargadatta several years ago and worked hard on > sensing what he was trying to teach. > All I accomplished was to become more confused and more polarized. > > The polarization I fell deeper into was " self/no self " . By the time I > finished reading the book I was a " self/no self " monster... > > I came to realize that an ego can't pull himself up off of the ground > by grabbing his feet with his hands and lifting... it doesn't work:-) > > Now I feel that all things: matter, energy, space, time, personality > or ego, finiteness, etc; is what I call " MIND " . > And that the escape door to this MIND does not open from the inside. > It only opens from the outside... > But outside of " MIND " is " NO THINGNESS " , so no one is there to open > any doors... > > I feel that bliss or serenity is also within MIND and is not true > awakening or enlightenment... and that there is no such thing as being > " close " to enlightenment. > > I feel that total absolute (by " absolute " I mean non- dual or > infinite), death of self is not achievable. That an ego can only > achieve or fail to achieve, it can't simply no longer exist because it > is in a state of neither existing nor not existing. > > I see myself as a mirror that is full of images and that I believe > myself to be those images... > > I also feel that... and this is strange... that even though I suffer > the duality of " dukkah " ; that somehow all is as it should be, that all > is ok... but yet I suffer... How can everything be ok if I suffer? > > It is like I am in both states at the same time, on both sides of the > door, awake and asleep! > > So... > Does anyone have any suggestions for me? :-) > > Stu > I really don't care about your problem. You see...... right now I am working on my own problem. My master told me that he has a goose egg stuck in a bottle and I have to figure out how remove it before the egg hatches. And my time is running out! If you could possibly help me figure out how to to that........I will have some time to spend on your problem. toombaru toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " stuartkfmn " <stuartkfmn@> wrote: > > > > I am new to this list. I have been working on other approaches to > > " awakening for the past 40 years. These other practices have done > > wonders for me in terms of what I can know or experience, but I am no > > closer to waking up than I was as a teenager. > > > > I read a book by Nisargadatta several years ago and worked hard on > > sensing what he was trying to teach. > > All I accomplished was to become more confused and more polarized. > > > > The polarization I fell deeper into was " self/no self " . By the time I > > finished reading the book I was a " self/no self " monster... > > > > I came to realize that an ego can't pull himself up off of the ground > > by grabbing his feet with his hands and lifting... it doesn't work:-) > > > > Now I feel that all things: matter, energy, space, time, personality > > or ego, finiteness, etc; is what I call " MIND " . > > And that the escape door to this MIND does not open from the inside. > > It only opens from the outside... > > But outside of " MIND " is " NO THINGNESS " , so no one is there to open > > any doors... > > > > I feel that bliss or serenity is also within MIND and is not true > > awakening or enlightenment... and that there is no such thing as being > > " close " to enlightenment. > > > > I feel that total absolute (by " absolute " I mean non- dual or > > infinite), death of self is not achievable. That an ego can only > > achieve or fail to achieve, it can't simply no longer exist because it > > is in a state of neither existing nor not existing. > > > > I see myself as a mirror that is full of images and that I believe > > myself to be those images... > > > > I also feel that... and this is strange... that even though I suffer > > the duality of " dukkah " ; that somehow all is as it should be, that all > > is ok... but yet I suffer... How can everything be ok if I suffer? > > > > It is like I am in both states at the same time, on both sides of the > > door, awake and asleep! > > > > So... > > Does anyone have any suggestions for me? :-) > > > > Stu > I really don't care about your problem. > > You see...... right now I am working on my own problem. > > My master told me that he has a goose egg stuck in a bottle and I have > to figure out how remove it before the egg hatches. > > And my time is running out! > > If you could possibly help me figure out how to to that........I will > have some time to spend on your problem. > > > > > toombaru > > > toombaru there never was a bottle. the egg is niether in nor out. and nothing will or ever has, hatched. Problem solved. Now..my lawn needs cutting and I have two mowers and only one me. can you help me. no....no one is ever in need of help. but if you could please send me some of that spare'time' you now have, I would appreciate it. .....bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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