Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Fear is a prison for your mind. In each moment, you are perfectly safe. In the next moment, you could be perfectly unsafe. What has the intellect to say about the next moment? Quite a lot. What has our emotions to say about the next moment? Ouite a many things. What has pure logic to say about the next moment? Logic says that there is a next moment in the form of thoughts and emotions. Logic also tells us that other than as thoughts/emotions there is no next moment. If we had robot minds operating with pure logic, then we could see that fear is only an illusional state based on ideas about the next moment. There is only a next moment as ideas. There is no solid next moment. Solid reality is fearless according to sheer mechanical logic. Then there is another kind of logic, a more human logic that says: I have to make sure that I am protected in the future. " My body must be protected in the future " " My image of myself must be protected in the future " Why? Because I must do my best to make myself happy. So we have one mechanical, almost mathematical logic, that says that there never will be a next moment, and also another logic that says that there will be a next moment. Without a next moment there would never be any experience, the latter logic tells us. The future is our only hope is the message given by this kind of logic. I think we have to integrate both kinds of logic into one logic. Yes, there will be a next moment, and yes, that next moment we can predict by extrapolating the past. Can this extrapolation be made without creating fear? Maybe. Maybe not. That is something for you to find out. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 I think we have to integrate both kinds of logic into one logic. Yes, there will be a next moment, and yes, that next moment we can predict by extrapolating the past. Can this extrapolation be made without creating fear? Maybe. Maybe not. That is something for you to find out. ^^Kip's concept: Every utterance is a defense-reaction (including this one). The subject [ego] is a defense-shield. Subject and shield are synonyms. Logic is a shield, a defense-mechanism, which has the same dignity as every other form of subject[self,ego]protection. Logic, no matter in what kind of disguise, will only make you go round and round and round. Endlessly, until you die. There is no other way, than to look through the mask [defense] which constitutes the subject. The shadow and the subject are the same. A shadow will never understand its shadow-giver[the register of the real]. No insight will ever lead you to this. The amount of wasted words, the chain of signifiers, grow proportionally to the amount of created lack, nuturing unconscious, enhancing the gap, not inversely. This is the meaning of desire. There is no other way, no alternative, than to let the subject die of " starvation " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > I think we have to integrate both kinds of logic into one logic. Yes, > there will be a next moment, and yes, that next moment we can predict > by extrapolating the past. Can this extrapolation be made without > creating fear? Maybe. Maybe not. That is something for you to find > out. > > > > ^^Kip's concept: Every utterance is a defense-reaction (including > this one). The subject [ego] is a defense-shield. Subject and shield > are synonyms. Logic is a shield, a defense-mechanism, which has the > same dignity as every other form of subject[self,ego]protection. > Logic, no matter in what kind of disguise, will only make you go > round and round and round. Endlessly, until you die. There is no > other way, than to look through the mask [defense] which constitutes > the subject. The shadow and the subject are the same. A shadow will > never understand its shadow-giver[the register of the real]. No > insight will ever lead you to this. The amount of wasted words, the > chain of signifiers, grow proportionally to the amount of created > lack, nuturing unconscious, enhancing the gap, not inversely. This is > the meaning of desire. > > There is no other way, no alternative, than to let the subject die > of " starvation " . Wow. That's some impressive stuff you mention. Without the subject I am gone. Surely you don't want me to go up in smoke. Will you? /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Without the subject I am gone. ^^Kip: Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Surely you don't want me to go up in smoke. Will you? ^^Kip: quite the opposite! You are now........smoke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > Without the subject I am gone. > > > ^^Kip: Exactly! How terribly! Surely I must exist. Is not the past who I am? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > Surely you don't want me to go up in smoke. Will you? > > > ^^Kip: quite the opposite! You are now........smoke! But I want to be a somebody!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 > But I want to be a somebody!!!!!!!!!! LOL! Kip Almazy P.S. Ouch! Nobody reads my links! Haven't you read " Who's afraid of Jacques Lacan! " , and all the other crap I posted. Nobody but you, can take away your " useless " fears. That easy. I'm just offering a few pointers. Fear isn't bad nor good. " Useless " fears are just this, useless. You could, for a change, state clearly what it is, what you really fear and, perhaps, get help from all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 " It is the nature of desire not to be satisfied, and most men live only for the gratification of it. " --Aristotle (384-322BC), Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 > How terribly! Surely I must exist. Is not the past who I am? It's not a question of who you are but where you live! Kip Almazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > > How terribly! Surely I must exist. Is not the past who I am? > > > It's not a question of who you are but where you live! > > > Kip Almazy ************************************* I loved your postings! True and direct! But I don't get this one above? It's not a question of who you are but " where you live " ! Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > > How terribly! Surely I must exist. Is not the past who I am? > > > It's not a question of who you are but where you live! > I am who " I AM " . I live in (or use ) this body to express my intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 > But I don't get this one above? ^^Kip: Exactly there! Never mind! See? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > > But I don't get this one above? > > > ^^Kip: Exactly there! Never mind! See? ************************************ Oh I think I understand? You could have put any word there!! " Where do you live " you wanted to point out the " I am " state. Where the words mean nothing! That must be it? if not, please reply! :0) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > > But I want to be a somebody!!!!!!!!!! > > > LOL! > > > Kip Almazy > > > P.S. Ouch! Nobody reads my links! Haven't you read " Who's afraid of > Jacques Lacan! " , and all the other crap I posted. Nobody but you, can > take away your " useless " fears. That easy. I'm just offering a few > pointers. Fear isn't bad nor good. " Useless " fears are just this, > useless. > > You could, for a change, state clearly what it is, what you really > fear and, perhaps, get help from all of us. That, was, somewhat what I had in mind when posting the original message. I said that to find whether you needed fear when predicting the future is " up to you " . What I meant was: I see something here, could some of you fellows help me see what it is? This world is a fear-based world. Virtuall everybody lives and acts from a cloud of fear. That's a fact. Just take a look at the friggin' world at the moment. So much hatred. So much opposition. What is hate? What is opposition? It's fear! Why do you think George W. Bush says: Hunt the terrorists? It's fear that makes the US presindent say something like that. It is the idea that the 'me' - in this case a country as a 'me' - needs to be protected from some threat. We feel we must protect our future 'me':s all the time. " My family must be protected " " My money must be protected " " My country must be protected " " My reputation must be protected " " My ideas must be protected " - therefore we hate everything that can be interpreted as a threat to ourselves which means our ideas about ourselves. We are 'animals' living in a dog-eat-dog and you-scratch-my-back-and-I- scratch-your-back world, driven by a constant doze of fear. And I am not saying that this fear is not needed as a form of control. What I am asking is if this type of control can be replaced by something a little smarter. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > " It is the nature of desire not to be satisfied, and most men live > only for the gratification of it. " > > --Aristotle (384-322BC), I believe there can be desire without fear. It's time for us to take our power back from an ignorant, primitive social structure that mechanically pulls our strings and pushes out emotional (conditionally and genetically programmed) buttons. Are you a social animal or are you human? (I am not asking you personally here Kip, I am asking humanity as a whole) /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > > How terribly! Surely I must exist. Is not the past who I am? > > > It's not a question of who you are but where you live! > > > Kip Almazy It's not a question of where we live, but how we live wherever we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > I am who " I AM " . > > I live in (or use ) this body to express my intentions. ************************************************** AAAAhhhhh! Finaly someone who understands!!!!! I'm not feeling that this affirmation comes from your mind only! Hemant, Where were you all this time? Are you a new member? I'm sure we could learn a lot from you! :0) Alberto, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Dear Al, This world is a fear-based world. ^^Kip: This is part of what the subject, Al, considers reality. Virtuall everybody lives and acts from a cloud of fear. ^^Kip: It becomes now " virtual " , projecting it to everybody. That's a fact. ^^Kip: Now again, reality and an " objective " form of reality. Just take a look at the friggin'world at the moment. ^^Kip: I don´t know what you mean with " friggin " . Is the world " friggin " there in Sweden or, are you talking about what you see on " TV " . So much hatred. So much opposition. What is hate? What is opposition? It's fear! ^^Kip: Is it your problem or just an excuse for, so to say, feeling bad by a good reason. Why do you think George W. Bush says: Hunt the terrorists? It's fear that makes the US presindent say something like that. ^^Kip: I gave it up to analyze the possible or unpossible motivations of politicians. Bush has been voted president by a mayority in a democratic country. I don´t know and I don´t care about Mr. Bush´s motivations. It is the idea that the 'me' - in this case a country as a 'me' - needs to be protected from some threat. We feel we must protect our future 'me':s all the time. " My family must be protected " " My money must be protected " " My country must be protected " " My reputation must be protected " " My ideas must be protected " - therefore we hate everything that can be interpreted as a threat to ourselves which means our ideas about ourselves. ^^Kip: Nothing wrong with a " common sense " protection. You have to live, your family, too, I guess, everybody. When things start to become " paranoic " it is, another question. I don´t think that you, living in Sweden, have to worry about so much. You just can do, what you can do. That´s all. The rest lies not in your hands. We are 'animals' living in a dog-eat-dog and you-scratch-my-back- and-I-scratch-your-back world, driven by a constant doze of fear. ^^Kip: You look too much TV. Look at the " close-by " world around you Remember the small things. That´s what matters, not Mr.Bush. And I am not saying that this fear is not needed as a form of control. What I am asking is if this type of control can be replaced by something a little smarter. ^^Kip: Yes, of course, you can get smarter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 I believe there can be desire without fear. It's time for us to take our power back from an ignorant, primitive social structure that mechanically pulls our strings and pushes out emotional (conditionally and genetically programmed) buttons. Are you a social animal or are you human? ^^Kip: Do it! Be it! Be, what you always expected from the " others " to be. Be enlightenement. Fake it, for a while, if you like and see what happens. All these positive attributes you project, are inherently yours. Practice what you preach. Be yourself.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > Dear Al, > > > > This world is a fear-based world. > > ^^Kip: This is part of what the subject, Al, considers reality. That's what I experience as reality, and what is _confirmed_ by the world around me. There may be people that live in a fearless state, that's possible, but what about the average man and woman in this world? Well, jeeesus what a load of fear they/we live in. > > Virtuall everybody lives and acts from a cloud of fear. > > ^^Kip: It becomes now " virtual " , projecting it to everybody. Virtually everybody, yes. > > That's a fact. > > ^^Kip: Now again, reality and an " objective " form of reality. That's an obvious observation, both as a personal experience and also as an observation of the common fear-based forces driving this world. > > Just take a look at the friggin'world at the moment. > > ^^Kip: I don´t know what you mean with " friggin " . Is the > world " friggin " there in Sweden or, are you talking about what you > see on " TV " . Look at this friggin' world. This bloody violence. The hatred. The fear. The world is boiling in fear. Can't you see it? Are you standing in a fearless sphere looking at the horrors in the world? The fear of what other people may think about you. The fear of losing friends, loved ones, money, reputation, health... Need I go on? > > So much hatred. So much opposition. What is hate? What is > opposition? It's fear! > > ^^Kip: Is it your problem or just an excuse for, so to say, feeling > bad by a good reason. My fear is my problem, but I am no island, so fear is a common problem in the world. > > Why do you think George W. Bush says: Hunt the terrorists? It's fear > that makes the US presindent say something like that. > > ^^Kip: I gave it up to analyze the possible or unpossible > motivations of politicians. Bush has been voted president by a > mayority in a democratic country. I don´t know and I don´t care > about Mr. Bush´s motivations. It matters not what politician we take as an example. I am not saying that politicians do something wrong. Probably the world is unfolding as it should. What I am saying is that it is time for humanity to look for something that is not fear-based. I may be wrong about this. Maybe fear is the only controlling force there is and can be, but I believe we must question the very situation we find ourselves in. If people think it's ok to be guided by fear, the ok, that's none of my business, but there may be another way of living. > > It is the idea that the 'me' - in this case a country as a 'me' - > needs to be protected from some threat. We feel we must protect our > future 'me':s all the time. " My family must be protected " " My money > must be protected " " My country must be protected " " My reputation > must be protected " " My ideas must be protected " - therefore we hate > everything that can be interpreted as a threat to ourselves which > means our ideas about ourselves. > > > ^^Kip: Nothing wrong with a " common sense " protection. You have to > live, your family, too, I guess, everybody. When things start to > become " paranoic " it is, another question. I don´t think that you, > living in Sweden, have to worry about so much. You just can do, what > you can do. That´s all. The rest lies not in your hands. The " common sense " protection is a programmed belief-system that may be the only control-structure there is, but I question this whole need for protection. > > We are 'animals' living in a dog-eat-dog and you-scratch-my-back- > and-I-scratch-your-back world, driven by a constant doze of fear. > > > ^^Kip: You look too much TV. Look at the " close-by " world around you > Remember the small things. That´s what matters, not Mr.Bush. The money on my bank account and Mr Bush are not separate. The world is one interrelated web. Fear is running the show today for most people (including me), but will it be that way always? > > > And I am not saying that this fear is not needed as a form of > control. What I am asking is if this type of control can be replaced > by something a little smarter. > > > ^^Kip: Yes, of course, you can get smarter. Fear is to suffer. We often don't recognize how manipulated we are. We are what genetic structures and social conditionings tell us to be. We are robots! Slaves! We don't even see the prison we live in. We are blinded by the belief that this conditioning is who we are. Maybe we can never be anything but robots, but I for one will do my best to get out of this horrible 'push-my-fear-buttons' cage. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > I believe there can be desire without fear. It's time for us to take > our power back from an ignorant, primitive social structure that > mechanically pulls our strings and pushes out emotional > (conditionally and genetically programmed) buttons. Are you a social > animal or are you human? > > > ^^Kip: Do it! Be it! Be, what you always expected from the " others " > to be. Be enlightenement. Fake it, for a while, if you like and see > what happens. All these positive attributes you project, are > inherently yours. Practice what you preach. Be yourself.... It's probably easier to walk on water than to escape this 'consensus reality' we are trapped in. But maybe it can be done! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> > wrote: > > > > I believe there can be desire without fear. It's time for us to > take > > our power back from an ignorant, primitive social structure that > > mechanically pulls our strings and pushes out emotional > > (conditionally and genetically programmed) buttons. Are you a > social > > animal or are you human? > > > > > > ^^Kip: Do it! Be it! Be, what you always expected from the " others " > > to be. Be enlightenement. Fake it, for a while, if you like and see > > what happens. All these positive attributes you project, are > > inherently yours. Practice what you preach. Be yourself.... > > It's probably easier to walk on water than to escape this 'consensus > reality' we are trapped in. But maybe it can be done! :-) No......it can't. Identificatiion is born....conjoined with fear...... t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Dear Al, This world is a fear-based world. ^^Kip: This is part of what the subject, Al, considers reality. That's what I experience as reality, and what is _confirmed_ by the world around me. Kip: Sorry, I can't confirm your perceptions. You might rethink the environment you live in and, if it is OK for you. Sometimes there is no other possibility than to leave. There may be people that live in a fearless state, that's possible, but what about the average man and woman in this world? Well, jeeesus what a load of fear they/we live in. Kip: What do you mean with " fearless state " ? I really don't see such a load of fear, at least, not in Europe. There are good social systems. Persons, which perhaps are not, as good as it could be covered, are elderly people living in secluded places, psychotics and drug abusers. Virtuall everybody lives and acts from a cloud of fear. ^^Kip: It becomes now " virtual " , projecting it to everybody. Virtually everybody, yes. That's a fact. Kip: That's " your " fact! Your projection. ^^Kip: Now again, reality and an " objective " form of reality. That's an obvious observation, both as a personal experience and also as an observation of the common fear-based forces driving this world. Kip: That's your observation. Your perception. I see very much courage, esprit, confidence and selflessness, in short, adulthood, too. Just take a look at the friggin'world at the moment. ^^Kip: I don´t know what you mean with " friggin " . Is the world " friggin " there in Sweden or, are you talking about what you see on " TV " . Look at this friggin' world. This bloody violence. The hatred. The fear. The world is boiling in fear. Can't you see it? Are you standing in a fearless sphere looking at the horrors in the world? The fear of what other people may think about you. The fear of losing friends, loved ones, money, reputation, health... Need I go on? Kip: Don't buy the newspapers for a while, through your tv out of the window (kidding), and make a personal boykott concerning US- american filmproductions. Then, tell me how much fear you see. BTW, if you do your things right, the way you can sleep well at night, you will not have much to fear!!! So much hatred. So much opposition. What is hate? What is opposition? It's fear! ^^Kip: Is it your problem or just an excuse for, so to say, feeling bad by a good reason. My fear is my problem, but I am no island, so fear is a common problem in the world. Kip: Yes, that's right, nobody is an island. Fear, to not be able to get enough food or money to live, sufficient healthcare, the elementary things. Fear about for example reputation, for example, is a stupid thing as well as fear of losing the love-ones and friends. Think about, why you fear these things. [...] It matters not what politician we take as an example. I am not saying that politicians do something wrong. Probably the world is unfolding as it should. Kip: You are not in the position to judge the unfolding of the world. Me, neither. What I am saying is that it is time for humanity to look for something that is not fear-based. I may be wrong about this. Kip: Make politics! Make a difference! Tell the people your truths. Maybe fear is the only controlling force there is and can be, but I believe we must question the very situation we find ourselves in. Kip: Exactly! If people think it's ok to be guided by fear, the ok, that's none of my business, but there may be another way of living. Kip: Sure, there is. I'm living now, better since two months, a " situation " . I try to do my best. I meditate before I make a decision. If it goes wrong, OK, I did what I could. It is the idea that the 'me' - in this case a country as a 'me' - needs to be protected from some threat. We feel we must protect our future 'me':s all the time. " My family must be protected " " My money must be protected " " My country must be protected " " My reputation must be protected " " My ideas must be protected " - therefore we hate everything that can be interpreted as a threat to ourselves which means our ideas about ourselves. Kip: Sure, that happens. But, it isn't my business. I can try to do my best in my close-by environment. Small steps. Small things. That's enough. To ease. To give. To comfort. To help. In short, to serve. That's all. What the heck should I care about the cold sweat of some bastards. They will get sooner or later what they deserve. ^^Kip: Nothing wrong with a " common sense " protection. You have to live, your family, too, I guess, everybody. When things start to become " paranoic " it is, another question. I don´t think that you, living in Sweden, have to worry about so much. You just can do, what you can do. That´s all. The rest lies not in your hands. The " common sense " protection is a programmed belief-system that may be the only control-structure there is, but I question this whole need for protection. Kip: Has the house, in which you live, a ligthening conductor? That's what I'm talking about. Don't buy a car without brakes! If you own something big, if you " have money " , you will have to protect it, otherwise you will loose it. That's it. Egoism creates fear. Fear, to loose, what you believe, you posses. That what you protect, is that what actually posseses you, that's true. Minimize the field you have to protect or accept the fear. We are 'animals' living in a dog-eat-dog and you-scratch-my-back- and-I-scratch-your-back world, driven by a constant doze of fear. ^^Kip: You look too much TV. Look at the " close-by " world around you Remember the small things. That´s what matters, not Mr.Bush. The money on my bank account and Mr Bush are not separate. The world is one interrelated web. Fear is running the show today for most people (including me), but will it be that way always? Kip: You decide. Money is important, to have a warm house, food and clothes. A job is important. To be healthy. Stable social and familiar relations. The whole propanda-machinery is telling you what you need, what you have to have. But, meditate a while on what you really need. It's actually not so much. The american dream is the shadow of a stinky fart. Make a trip to Africa! And I am not saying that this fear is not needed as a form of control. What I am asking is if this type of control can be replaced by something a little smarter. ^^Kip: Yes, of course, you can get smarter. Fear is to suffer. We often don't recognize how manipulated we are. We are what genetic structures and social conditionings tell us to be. Kip: Subjects, yes. Do not identify yourself with the subject you created on your own countenance. It isn't your countenance. You don't posses it. You don't need to protect that. That's what the " sages " are telling. We are robots! Slaves! We don't even see the prison we live in. We are blinded by the belief that this conditioning is who we are. Maybe we can never be anything but robots, but I for one will do my best to get out of this horrible 'push-my-fear-buttons' cage. Kip: Again, read my " Who's afraid of Jacques Lacan " -thingy. Your are much more, that what you think you are......you are beyond concepts. Gassho Kip Almazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 If a man is crossing a river And an empy boat collides with his own skiff, Even though he be a bad tempered man He will not become very angry. But if he sees a man in the boat, He will shout at him to steer clear. If that shout is not heard, he will shout again, And yet again, and begin cursing. And all because there is somebody in the boat. Yet if the boat were empty, He would not be shouting, and not angry. If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you. --Chuang Tzu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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