Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> > > wrote: > > > > > > I believe there can be desire without fear. It's time for us to > > take > > > our power back from an ignorant, primitive social structure that > > > mechanically pulls our strings and pushes out emotional > > > (conditionally and genetically programmed) buttons. Are you a > > social > > > animal or are you human? > > > > > > > > > ^^Kip: Do it! Be it! Be, what you always expected from the " others " > > > to be. Be enlightenement. Fake it, for a while, if you like and see > > > what happens. All these positive attributes you project, are > > > inherently yours. Practice what you preach. Be yourself.... > > > > It's probably easier to walk on water than to escape this 'consensus > > reality' we are trapped in. But maybe it can be done! :-) No......it can't. > > Identificatiion is born....conjoined with fear...... > > > > > t. That's horrible. Surely the mighty " I am " can liberate itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I believe there can be desire without fear. It's time for us to > > > take > > > > our power back from an ignorant, primitive social structure > that > > > > mechanically pulls our strings and pushes out emotional > > > > (conditionally and genetically programmed) buttons. Are you a > > > social > > > > animal or are you human? > > > > > > > > > > > > ^^Kip: Do it! Be it! Be, what you always expected from > the " others " > > > > to be. Be enlightenement. Fake it, for a while, if you like and > see > > > > what happens. All these positive attributes you project, are > > > > inherently yours. Practice what you preach. Be yourself.... > > > > > > It's probably easier to walk on water than to escape > this 'consensus > > > reality' we are trapped in. But maybe it can be done! :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No......it can't. > > > > Identificatiion is born....conjoined with fear...... > > > > > > > > > > t. > > > That's horrible. Surely the mighty " I am " can liberate itself? " I am " ......is the ultimate horror. t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > If a man is crossing a river > And an empy boat collides with his own skiff, > Even though he be a bad tempered man > He will not become very angry. > But if he sees a man in the boat, > He will shout at him to steer clear. > If that shout is not heard, he will shout again, > And yet again, and begin cursing. > And all because there is somebody in the boat. > Yet if the boat were empty, > He would not be shouting, and not angry. > > If you can empty your own boat > Crossing the river of the world, > No one will oppose you, > No one will seek to harm you. > > > --Chuang Tzu ...........better yet........... ...........empty the man.......... t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > Dear Al, > > > This world is a fear-based world. > > ^^Kip: This is part of what the subject, Al, considers reality. > > That's what I experience as reality, and what is _confirmed_ by the > world around me. > > Kip: Sorry, I can't confirm your perceptions. You might rethink the > environment you live in and, if it is OK for you. Sometimes there is > no other possibility than to leave. Fear is a global state. > > > There may be people that live in a fearless state, that's possible, > but what about the average man and woman in this world? Well, > jeeesus what a load of fear they/we live in. > > Kip: What do you mean with " fearless state " ? I really don't see such > a load of fear, at least, not in Europe. There are good social > systems. Persons, which perhaps are not, as good as it could be > covered, are elderly people living in secluded places, psychotics > and drug abusers. I have lowered my threshold to how I experience fear. My gooood what an immense load of fear that is guiding this world. What would you say if everyone could read _all_ your thoughts? Big fear, right? Why? Why this tremendous fear? Why this conflict between 'personal' self and the 'outside' world? One answer to this question is that fear is needed as a form of regulating factor. But surely there must be something smarter than stupid fear? > > Virtuall everybody lives and acts from a cloud of fear. > > ^^Kip: It becomes now " virtual " , projecting it to everybody. > > Virtually everybody, yes. > > That's a fact. > > Kip: That's " your " fact! Your projection. Did I say that it is a fact? Well, what I mean is that to me this is obvious, but I would not call it a fact. > > ^^Kip: Now again, reality and an " objective " form of reality. > > That's an obvious observation, both as a personal experience and > also as an observation of the common fear-based forces driving this > world. > > Kip: That's your observation. Your perception. I see very much > courage, esprit, confidence and selflessness, in short, adulthood, > too. > > Just take a look at the friggin'world at the moment. > > ^^Kip: I don´t know what you mean with " friggin " . Is the > world " friggin " there in Sweden or, are you talking about what you > see on " TV " . > > Look at this friggin' world. This bloody violence. The hatred. The > fear. The world is boiling in fear. Can't you see it? Are you > standing in a fearless sphere looking at the horrors in the world? > The fear of what other people may think about you. The fear of > losing friends, loved ones, money, reputation, health... Need I go > on? > > > Kip: Don't buy the newspapers for a while, through your tv out of > the window (kidding), and make a personal boykott concerning US- > american filmproductions. Then, tell me how much fear you see. > > BTW, if you do your things right, the way you can sleep well at > night, you will not have much to fear!!! Don't you see that the pressure on oneself to do things right is fear? My idea of fear includes all conflict. > > > So much hatred. So much opposition. What is hate? What is > opposition? It's fear! > > ^^Kip: Is it your problem or just an excuse for, so to say, feeling > bad by a good reason. > > My fear is my problem, but I am no island, so fear is a common > problem in the world. > > Kip: Yes, that's right, nobody is an island. Fear, to not be able to > get enough food or money to live, sufficient healthcare, the > elementary things. Fear about for example reputation, for example, > is a stupid thing as well as fear of losing the love-ones and > friends. Think about, why you fear these things. The elementary things and all other things are related. My question is: is it possible to transcend all fear? > > > [...] > > > It matters not what politician we take as an example. I am not > saying that politicians do something wrong. Probably the world is > unfolding as it should. > > > Kip: You are not in the position to judge the unfolding of the > world. Me, neither. Everybody is in the position to judge anything. That's what is called freedom. And, of course, you judging me for judging is also ok, or not ok from another point of view, depending on our belief-system. > > > What I am saying is that it is time for humanity to look for > something that is not fear-based. I may be wrong about this. > > > Kip: Make politics! Make a difference! Tell the people your truths. First I must see if it is possible to go beyond fear. > > Maybe fear is the only controlling force there is and can be, but I > believe we must question the very situation we find ourselves in. > > Kip: Exactly! > > If people think it's ok to be guided by fear, the ok, that's none of > my business, but there may be another way of living. > > Kip: Sure, there is. I'm living now, better since two months, > a " situation " . I try to do my best. I meditate before I make a > decision. If it goes wrong, OK, I did what I could. I am looking for a state that is radically free from all blame. > > It is the idea that the 'me' - in this case a country as a 'me' - > needs to be protected from some threat. We feel we must protect our > future 'me':s all the time. " My family must be protected " " My > money must be protected " " My country must be protected " " My > reputation must be protected " " My ideas must be protected " - > therefore we hate everything that can be interpreted as a threat to > ourselves which means our ideas about ourselves. > > Kip: Sure, that happens. But, it isn't my business. I can try to do > my best in my close-by environment. Small steps. Small things. > That's enough. To ease. To give. To comfort. To help. In short, to > serve. That's all. What the heck should I care about the cold sweat > of some bastards. They will get sooner or later what they deserve. Hehe. I find it extremely liberating to help when I feel like it, and not give a shit when I feel like it. Helping people because one believs one _ought_ to do it is fear-based living. Helping should flow joyfully from the heart I believe. Don't let guilt guide you. Guilt is fear. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. :-) Master Yoda: " How feel you? " Anakin Skywalker: " Cold, sir. " Yoda: " Afraid, are you? " Anakin: " No, sir? " Yoda: " See through you, we can. " Other Jedi: " Your thoughts dwell on you mother. " Anakin: " What has that to do with anything? " Yoda: " Everything! Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.........I sense much fear in you. " > > > > ^^Kip: Nothing wrong with a " common sense " protection. You have to > live, your family, too, I guess, everybody. When things start to > become " paranoic " it is, another question. I don´t think that you, > living in Sweden, have to worry about so much. You just can do, > what you can do. That´s all. The rest lies not in your hands. That's common sense yes. But my idea is that all kinds of basic protection will automatically be provided once one let go of personal control and move into universal control. This may sound like a fancy new age idea, but what I mean is to relax into what is, completely. > > > The " common sense " protection is a programmed belief-system that may > be the only control-structure there is, but I question this whole > need for protection. > > > Kip: Has the house, in which you live, a ligthening conductor? > That's what I'm talking about. Don't buy a car without brakes! If > you own something big, if you " have money " , you will have to protect > it, otherwise you will loose it. That's it. Egoism creates fear. > Fear, to loose, what you believe, you posses. That what you protect, > is that what actually posseses you, that's true. Minimize the field > you have to protect or accept the fear. My idea is to remove all ideas of protection. This is not the same as removing all protection. To remove _ideas_ about protection requires a serious mind. > > > > We are 'animals' living in a dog-eat-dog and you-scratch-my-back- > and-I-scratch-your-back world, driven by a constant doze of fear. > > > ^^Kip: You look too much TV. Look at the " close-by " world around > you Remember the small things. That´s what matters, not Mr.Bush. > > The money on my bank account and Mr Bush are not separate. The world > is one interrelated web. Fear is running the show today for most > people (including me), but will it be that way always? > > Kip: You decide. Money is important, to have a warm house, food and > clothes. A job is important. To be healthy. Stable social and > familiar relations. The whole propanda-machinery is telling you what > you need, what you have to have. But, meditate a while on what you > really need. It's actually not so much. The american dream is the > shadow of a stinky fart. Make a trip to Africa! > > > And I am not saying that this fear is not needed as a form of > control. What I am asking is if this type of control can be > replaced by something a little smarter. > > > ^^Kip: Yes, of course, you can get smarter. > > Fear is to suffer. We often don't recognize how manipulated we are. > We are what genetic structures and social conditionings tell us to > be. > > Kip: Subjects, yes. Do not identify yourself with the subject you > created on your own countenance. It isn't your countenance. You > don't posses it. You don't need to protect that. That's what > the " sages " are telling. > > > We are robots! Slaves! We don't even see the prison we live in. > We are blinded by the belief that this conditioning is who we are. > Maybe we can never be anything but robots, but I for one will do my > best to get out of this horrible 'push-my-fear-buttons' cage. > > > Kip: Again, read my " Who's afraid of Jacques Lacan " -thingy. Your are > much more, that what you think you are......you are beyond concepts. > > > > Gassho > Kip Almazy I read some Lacan stuff. A bit difficult to understand and read. Too many words I believe. If you cannot explain something to a 6 year old child, you have not understood it yourself, sort of... /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I believe there can be desire without fear. It's time for us to > > > > take > > > > > our power back from an ignorant, primitive social structure > > that > > > > > mechanically pulls our strings and pushes out emotional > > > > > (conditionally and genetically programmed) buttons. Are you a > > > > social > > > > > animal or are you human? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^^Kip: Do it! Be it! Be, what you always expected from > > the " others " > > > > > to be. Be enlightenement. Fake it, for a while, if you like and > > see > > > > > what happens. All these positive attributes you project, are > > > > > inherently yours. Practice what you preach. Be yourself.... > > > > > > > > It's probably easier to walk on water than to escape > > this 'consensus > > > > reality' we are trapped in. But maybe it can be done! :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No......it can't. > > > > > > Identificatiion is born....conjoined with fear...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > t. > > > > > > That's horrible. Surely the mighty " I am " can liberate itself? > > > > " I am " ......is the ultimate horror. > > t. " I will be " .......is the ultimate horror. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > > > If a man is crossing a river > > And an empy boat collides with his own skiff, > > Even though he be a bad tempered man > > He will not become very angry. > > But if he sees a man in the boat, > > He will shout at him to steer clear. > > If that shout is not heard, he will shout again, > > And yet again, and begin cursing. > > And all because there is somebody in the boat. > > Yet if the boat were empty, > > He would not be shouting, and not angry. > > > > If you can empty your own boat > > Crossing the river of the world, > > No one will oppose you, > > No one will seek to harm you. > > > > > > --Chuang Tzu > > > > > > ..........better yet........... > > ..........empty the man.......... Have you read the whole text? Where should be a man in an empty boat? ............better yet........... ............empty the empty man, too........ ............and leave the boat behind............ ............for the next empty soul........... Kip Almazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Correction: > > Master Yoda: " How feel you? " > > Anakin Skywalker: " Cold, sir. " > > Yoda: " Afraid, are you? " > > Anakin: " No, sir? " > > Yoda: " See through you, we can. " > > Other Jedi: " Your thoughts dwell on you mother. " Other Jedi: " Afraid to lose her, I think. " (Or something like that) > > Anakin: " What has that to do with anything? " > > Yoda: " Everything! Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to > anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.........I sense > much fear in you. " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 OK! I will shut my mouth until you have gone beyond fear and reached the state of " radically free from all blame " . May I visit you then and tape your teachings? You make me laugh! Thanks Kip Almazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " kipalmazy " <kipalmazy> wrote: > > OK! I will shut my mouth until you have gone beyond fear and reached > the state of " radically free from all blame " . May I visit you then > and tape your teachings? > > > You make me laugh! Thanks > > > Kip Almazy Ha! Maybe I then would live in a frequency range invisible to the fearful eye. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > What would Nisargadatta say about fear? > > Noel > He would say to apprehend the nature of the one who is frightened....and all questions about fear evaporate. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > What would Nisargadatta say about fear? > > > > Noel > > > > > He would say to apprehend the nature of the one who is > frightened....and all questions about fear evaporate. > > > > > toombaru > in other words: love the fear, love the one who fears, and love what is feared -- all as one .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > What would Nisargadatta say about fear? > > > > Noel > > > > > He would say to apprehend the nature of the one who is > frightened....and all questions about fear evaporate. > > > > > toombaru > have you told your son this ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , Noel <noel_beau wrote: > > > > --- toombaru2006 <lastrain wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , Noel > > <noel_beau@> wrote: > > > > > > What would Nisargadatta say about fear? > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > He would say to apprehend the nature of the one who > > is > > frightened....and all questions about fear > > evaporate. > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > I am not sure how to write what I want to write in > response to this. Here goes, though. I think when > one is not in a state of fear it is quite clear and > easy to understand what it means 'to apprehend the > nature of the one who is frightened'. I think when > one is in a state of fear it is a different matter. > To then apply, earnestly would seem to mean to > simply look at the thoughts related to the fear state. > But...the fear state in my experience is not only > experienced as thought. It actually grips the body. > See what I mean? > > Noel When fear grips you then you-are-the-fear. Weeing who is in fear is nothing other than to see directly into the fear itself. It is to witness utterly and completely the feeling(s) of fear, the gripping of the body, all that is part of it. It is to not at all resist the fear, but to experience it will full and vivid consciousness. No more the fear lurking in darkness, but dragging it into full light of day. It is owning the fear and not fearing the fear. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 On Aug 1, 2006, at 10:19 AM, Nisargadatta wrote: > But...the fear state in my experience is not only > > experienced as thought. It actually grips the body. > > See what I mean? > > > > Noel P: Watch the feeling of fear, watch the reactions of the body to this feeling. Watch how the feeling changes when observed, watch how the mind behaves when observing the fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie5 wrote: > > > On Aug 1, 2006, at 10:19 AM, Nisargadatta wrote: > > > But...the fear state in my experience is not only > > > experienced as thought. It actually grips the body. > > > See what I mean? > > > > > > Noel > > P: Watch the feeling of fear, watch the reactions of > the body to this feeling. Watch how the feeling > changes when observed, watch how the mind > behaves when observing the fear. > > Never trust a weasel to watch the chickens. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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