Debunking Guru Grace

[Guest guest]

1. Grace of the Guru

 

N: It is the intensity of the faith you have in the guru's words

that is most important; once that is there, the grace flows

automatically.

 

P:Notice that Nis says here " The faith is the Guru's words, " not

the guru himself. Notice he says " The grace flows automatically "

which means once you know what to do, the living guru is not needed.

If you are lost, and you ask someone for directions, and the

directions are correct, you don't need the person to hold your hand

and take you there. That's if, you are an adult. Many Gurus want to

establish a long lasting parent-child relationship with seekers

out of economic and power lust needs.

 

 

 

N: After that there were no more doubts and no more questions. Once

my guru conveyed to me what he had to say I never bothered about

other things - I hung on to the words of the guru.

 

P: Here Maharaj confirms what Isaid above: " I hung on to the words "

P:Not the Guru

 

 

 

N: The deep, dark blue state, the shade that you can take rest in,

that is the grace of the guru. The darkness that you see when you

close your eyes, that is the shadow of the guru's grace. Always keep

it in mind; take rest in that shade of guru's grace.

 

P: This dark blue state, that darkness empty of thoughts is the

the grace of the satguru, the self, no human guru can give it you,

it's your from birth.

 

N:Through the concepts of others you have built up so many things

around you that you are lost. You are decorated and embellished by

the concepts of others. The purpose of the guru is to tell you what

you were like prior to the building up of all those concepts. Your

pre­sent spiritual storehouse is filled up with the words of others -

demolish those concepts. You must find out for yourself your own

truth. Guru means the eternal state which will never change... what

you truly are. You are that immutable, eternal, unchangeable

Absolute. Guru tells you to get rid of all the walls built around you

by the hearsay and con­cepts of others, which have kept you from your

true nature.

 

P: Once you know you are not the role society assigned you, that

you are the immutable, all words, all knowledge becomes unnecessary,

including the guru's words. Buddha said, " Once the other shore is

reached, leave the raft behind. "

 

N:Understand that the consciousness has arisen sponta­neously in you,

the Absolute. Once you are conscious of yourself you know you exist

and you love this beingness; you do not want this beingness to depart

from you, and it is this that makes you strive all day until sleep

overcomes you, in order to keep the beingness satisfied. Then the

guru tells you the true state of affairs, that this consciousness

which you love so much is only an illusion. It is the basic cause of

all unhappiness and your true state is before this consciousness

arose.

 

P: Notice, Nis doesn't said consciousness is eternal, or all-

encompasing. He says it's an illusion, and that your true state

was that complete unknowing ,unconsciousness that you were before

birth.

 

 

N:Understand this thoroughly, intuitively, beyond all words and

concepts, but also know that if this understanding is just something

happening in the intellect it will be of no use to you, because it

will be at the level of phenomenal consciousness... concepts... and

that consciousness is nothing but illusion. Whatever you know is

imperfect, fraudulent. Go where you do not know. Recede into the

source, into no form, no beingness; there you are perfect. Whatever

you witness will not remain with you; it is imperfect. The one who

recognizes the imperfect as imperfect is perfect; that one is

complete in himself.

 

P: Now, read the above paragraph carefully, there is the essence of

Niz teachings. This is the hard stuff he feeds those who have

spiritual teeth. The rest is baby food for those who can neither

chew, nor walk.

 

N: Consciousness is illusion, espiritual knowledge is illusion. If

you only have an intellectual understanding, that is not much,

Disapear into No being, No knowledge, No form; there is where, home

and perfection are.

 

Have firm faith in the words of the guru. Nothing, nobody existed

prior to you. When your beingness appeared then everything appeared.

Understand that first moment when you understood that you are, the

point at which everything arose. The source and the end are the same

point.

 

P: If you read this carefully, you will see Nis is telling you that

everything is, because the body is, but the source is the same before

birth, during life, and after death, nothing you can do will improve

or damage your true nature in any way.

 

 

N:In the spiritual hierarchy going from the grossest to the subtlest,

you are the subtlest. The very base is you, full and complete,

without need for knowledge of who you are.

 

P: Here he says it again in more radical terms. You don't even

have to know your true nature. You are that, whether you know it,

or not!

 

 

 

N:Suddenly the space-like, all-pervading 'I amness' appears.

Spontaneously, uncalled for, the beingness has come and is being

witnessed by you, the Absolute. Later, this space-like 'I amness'

disappears and the beingness goes back into oblivion.

 

P: Here for those who gag at the word 'Nothing " he says it very clear

the " I amness " the beingness will go into OBLIVION, nothigness,

complete unknowing.

 

 

 

N: You remain in the eternal state, your true unchanging state. Prior

to your beingness, nothing was... but you, the Absolute. After the

beingness comes, still all there is is you, the Absolute. Without the

beingness you, the Absolute, don't know you are.

 

P: Here again without the body and the beingness, the Absolute

dont know you are, and doesn't it is, because there are not two,

but only one, the Absolute.

 

 

N:You are without any stigma, not covered by anything. You are the

Paramatman, the core Self, the highest Self, the Absolute, subtler

than space, beyond consciousness, beyond the 'I am­ness'.

 

In meditation, let your beingness merge in your Self, the non-dual

state. Remain still. Do not struggle to come out of the mud of your

concepts, you will only go deeper. Simply abide in the stillness. The

Self has no occasion to say it exists; it is in eternity. When there

is no body-mind there can be no practice; only the stillness of the

Self remains

[Guest guest]

N: You remain in the eternal state, your true unchanging state. Prior

to your beingness, nothing was... but you, the Absolute. After the

beingness comes, still all there is is you, the Absolute. Without the

beingness you, the Absolute, don't know you are.

 

e. i wonder how much people realize of what this quote conveys; the

Absolute is me, is you, doesn't bear any of my memories or desires,

never started and will never end, no consideration of afterlife

golden realm or reincarnation; when i die i will be exactly what i

was before i was born, or what i was last night when my body was an

empty vessel waiting for some function to be triggered by the

environment in the morning.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien "

<ericparoissien@g...> wrote:

>

>

> N: You remain in the eternal state, your true unchanging state.

Prior

> to your beingness, nothing was... but you, the Absolute. After the

> beingness comes, still all there is is you, the Absolute. Without

the

> beingness you, the Absolute, don't know you are.

>

> e. i wonder how much people realize of what this quote conveys; the

> Absolute is me, is you, doesn't bear any of my memories or desires,

> never started and will never end, no consideration of afterlife

> golden realm or reincarnation; when i die i will be exactly what i

> was before i was born, or what i was last night when my body was an

> empty vessel waiting for some function to be triggered by the

> environment in the morning.

 

P: Exactly! In the end, this will amount to nothing at all happened.

Physicists state that the sum total of all the energy in the Universe

is zero, because in totality, the negative and positive forces

cancel each other. Energy imbalances are a local phenomenon.

But, on the other hand consciousness and beingness are always

generic, so it's that generic " I feeling " that acted as Napoleon,

and now as Eric, and have no preference for either.

[Guest guest]

All nicely observed, did you get all this knowledge from books? Only,

when it comes to the more advanced stuff... I think there you are

still speculating a lot. Dont make a religion out of it, dont become

a priest! N. said what he said, lets leave it there. He has been out

there. He said what cannot be said with words. It is called Vedanta.

When we start to explain it we are bound to fail.

 

Waiting for the first book of N. with comments!!!! Haha, hope I am out

of this game by then...

 

Ohhh... and... please...:

 

>Many Gurus want to

>establish a long lasting parent-child relationship with seekers

>out of economic and power lust needs.

 

Those are false Gurus, my friend. Be aware!

 

Stefan

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien "

> <ericparoissien@g...> wrote:

> >

> >

>N: You remain in the eternal state, your true unchanging state.

>Prior to your beingness, nothing was... but you, the Absolute. After

>the beingness comes, still all there is is you, the Absolute.

>Without the beingness you, the Absolute, don't know you are.

 

Nisargadatta often said: listen to this what I say not from the

standpoint of your identified mind but from the standpoint of the

Absolute (another translation here, Ramesh would have said " pure

consciousness " ).

 

Ok, now we have the " Absolute " for a change. Do you know what he meant

with this? Typical for deep sleep is that you dont remember what had

happened then. But Nisargadatta is describing the " state " of the

Absolute as somebody who has become this Absolute and is now able to

talk through the body-mind-system of Nisargadatta. He does not sound

like a talking sleepwalker... See, the decisive difference between

deep sleep and this " Absolute " is: deep sleep is the state of somebody

who is not awake - - the Absolute is pure Consciousness conscious of

itself. It is not the absence nor the presence of anything. And no

word is capable of describing it, no brain is capable of imagining it.

We can imagine " nothing " only as opposite to " something " / " sleep "

only in opposite to " awake " / " dead " only as opposite to " alive "

etc... But VEDANTA means NON-DUALITY. And this is the point from where

Nisargadatta comes. We only have to accept this simple fact. There is

nothing we can say from our identified mind. There is only one answer:

SILENCE.

 

S.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien "

> <ericparoissien@g...> wrote:

> >

> >

> > N: You remain in the eternal state, your true unchanging state.

> Prior

> > to your beingness, nothing was... but you, the Absolute. After

the

> > beingness comes, still all there is is you, the Absolute.

Without

> the

> > beingness you, the Absolute, don't know you are.

> >

> > e. i wonder how much people realize of what this quote conveys;

the

> > Absolute is me, is you, doesn't bear any of my memories or

desires,

> > never started and will never end, no consideration of afterlife

> > golden realm or reincarnation; when i die i will be exactly what

i

> > was before i was born, or what i was last night when my body was

an

> > empty vessel waiting for some function to be triggered by the

> > environment in the morning.

>

> P: Exactly! In the end, this will amount to nothing at all

happened.

> Physicists state that the sum total of all the energy in the

Universe

> is zero, because in totality, the negative and positive forces

> cancel each other. Energy imbalances are a local phenomenon.

> But, on the other hand consciousness and beingness are always

> generic, so it's that generic " I feeling " that acted as Napoleon,

> and now as Eric, and have no preference for either.

 

e. the other day someone said that reincarnation is deafeated by the

fact that energy flows freely and expands to infinity, i dont know

if it's true, but it sounds right, any combination of memories,

feelings, regrets, sufferings and hopes that i call 'me' now, will

never happen again, and and don't know 'who' will call 'what' " Eric "

in a year from now.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...>

wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...>

wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien "

> > <ericparoissien@g...> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> >N: You remain in the eternal state, your true unchanging state.

> >Prior to your beingness, nothing was... but you, the Absolute.

After

> >the beingness comes, still all there is is you, the Absolute.

> >Without the beingness you, the Absolute, don't know you are.

>

> Nisargadatta often said: listen to this what I say not from the

> standpoint of your identified mind but from the standpoint of the

> Absolute (another translation here, Ramesh would have said " pure

> consciousness " ).

>

> Ok, now we have the " Absolute " for a change. Do you know what he

meant

> with this? Typical for deep sleep is that you dont remember what

had

> happened then. But Nisargadatta is describing the " state " of the

> Absolute as somebody who has become this Absolute and is now able

to

> talk through the body-mind-system of Nisargadatta. He does not

sound

> like a talking sleepwalker... See, the decisive difference between

> deep sleep and this " Absolute " is: deep sleep is the state of

somebody

> who is not awake - - the Absolute is pure Consciousness conscious

of

> itself. It is not the absence nor the presence of anything. And no

> word is capable of describing it, no brain is capable of imagining

it.

> We can imagine " nothing " only as opposite to " something " / " sleep "

> only in opposite to " awake " / " dead " only as opposite to " alive "

> etc... But VEDANTA means NON-DUALITY. And this is the point from

where

> Nisargadatta comes. We only have to accept this simple fact. There

is

> nothing we can say from our identified mind. There is only one

answer:

> SILENCE.

>

> S.

 

e. then we are grateful that you understand the ungraspable and

express this silence so eloquently S.; especially when you are so

sure that other people did not get it right, you gave the right

instruction.

As for the " pure Consciousness conscious of itself " it might as well

be without you, if there ever was a place where S. and his memories

were not, or it might be the simple fact that you can acknowledge

this message ... who knows.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien "

<ericparoissien@g...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " cerosoul " <Pedsie2@a...>

wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " Eric Paroissien "

> > <ericparoissien@g...> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > N: You remain in the eternal state, your true unchanging state.

> > Prior

> > > to your beingness, nothing was... but you, the Absolute. After

> the

> > > beingness comes, still all there is is you, the Absolute.

> Without

> > the

> > > beingness you, the Absolute, don't know you are.

> > >

> > > e. i wonder how much people realize of what this quote conveys;

> the

> > > Absolute is me, is you, doesn't bear any of my memories or

> desires,

> > > never started and will never end, no consideration of afterlife

> > > golden realm or reincarnation; when i die i will be exactly

what

> i

> > > was before i was born, or what i was last night when my body

was

> an

> > > empty vessel waiting for some function to be triggered by the

> > > environment in the morning.

> >

> > P: Exactly! In the end, this will amount to nothing at all

> happened.

> > Physicists state that the sum total of all the energy in the

> Universe

> > is zero, because in totality, the negative and positive forces

> > cancel each other. Energy imbalances are a local phenomenon.

> > But, on the other hand consciousness and beingness are always

> > generic, so it's that generic " I feeling " that acted as Napoleon,

> > and now as Eric, and have no preference for either.

>

> e. the other day someone said that reincarnation is deafeated by

the

> fact that energy flows freely and expands to infinity, i dont know

> if it's true, but it sounds right, any combination of memories,

> feelings, regrets, sufferings and hopes that i call 'me' now, will

> never happen again, and and don't know 'who' will

call 'what' " Eric "

> in a year from now.

 

P: Hey, what you eating nowadays? You are sounding pretty

sharp to me.