Guest guest Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Alexander Smit (midwife to the Dutch Advaita Movement) being interviewed ... relates how his spiritual master Nisargadatta worked on him. [Alexander met Nisargadatta in September of 1978.} Q: What precisely did you want from him ? Self-realization. I wanted to know how I was put together. I said: 'I have heard that your are the greatest ego killer who exists. And that is what I want.' He said: 'I am not a killer. I am a diamond cutter. You are also a diamond. But you are a raw diamond and you can only be cut by a pure diamond. And that is very precise work, because if that is not done properly then you fall apart into a hundred pieces, and then there is nothing left for you. Do you have any questions?' I told him that Maurice Frydman was the decisive reason for my coming. Frydman was a friend of Krishnamurti and Frydman was planning to publish all of the earlier work of Krishnamurti at Chetana Publishers in Bombay, And that he had heard from Mr. Dikshit , the publisher, that there was someone in Bombay who he had to meet. (I AM THAT was of course not yet published at that time because Frydman had yet to meet Nisargadatta). Frydman went there with his usual skeptical ideas. He came in there, and within two weeks things became clear to him that had never become clear with Krishnamurti. And I thought then: if it all became clear to Frydman within two weeks, how will it go with me? I told all this to Nisargadatta and he said: 'That says nothing about me, but everything about Frydman.' And he also said: 'People who don't understand Krishnamurti don't understand themselves.' I thought that was beautiful, because all the gurus I knew always ran everyone down. It seemed as if he wanted to help me relax. He didn't launch any provocations. I was able to relax, because as you can understand it was of course a rather tense situation there. He said; 'Do you have any questions?' I said; 'No.' 'When are you going to come?' 'Every day if you allow me.' 'That's good. Come just two times every day, mornings and afternoons, for the lectures, and we'll see how it goes.' I said: 'Yes, and I am not leaving until it has become clear.' He said; 'That's good.' Q: Was that true? Yes, without a doubt. Because what he did — within two minutes he made it clear, whatever you brought up, that the knowledge you presented was not yours. That it was from a book, or that you had borrowed or stolen it, or that it was fantasy, but that you were actually not capable of having a direct observation, a direct perception, seeing directly, immediately, without a mediator, without self consciousness. And that frightened me terribly, because everything you said was cut down in a brutal way. Q: What happened with you exactly? The second day he asked if I had any questions. Then I began to ask a question about reincarnation in a more or less romanticized way. I told that I had always had a connection with India, that when I heard the word 'India' for the first time it was shock for me, and that the word 'yoga' was like being hit by a bomb when I first heard it on TV, and that the word 'British India' was like a dog hearing his boss whistle. And I asked, could it mean that I had lived in India in previous lives? And then he began to curse in Marathi, and to get unbelievably agitated, and that lasted for at least ten minutes. I thought, my god, what's happening here? The translator was apparently used to it, because he just sat calmly by, and when Maharaj was finished he summarized it all together; 'Maharaj is asking himself if you are really serious. Yesterday you came and you wanted self-realization, but now you begin with questions that belong in kindergarten'… In this way you were forced to be unbelievably alert. Everything counted heavily. It became clear to me within a few days that I knew absolutely nothing, that all that I knew, all the knowledge that I had gathered was book knowledge, second hand, learned, but that out of myself I knew nothing. I can assure you that this put what was needed into motion. And that's how it went every day! Whatever I came up with, whether I asked an intelligent question or a dumb question, made absolutely no difference. And one day he asserted this, and the following day he asserted precisely the opposite and the following day he twisted it around one more time even though that was not actually possible. And so it went, until by observation I understood why that was, and that was a really wonderful realization. Why do I try all the time to cram everything into concepts, to try to understand everything in terms of thinking or in the feelings sphere? And, he gave me tips about how I could look at things in another way, thus really looking. And then it became clear to me that it just made no sense to regard yourself — whatever you call yourself, or don't call yourself — in that way. That was an absolute undermining of the self-consciousness, like a termite eating a chair. At a certain moment it becomes sawdust. It still looks like a chair, but it isn't a chair anymore. Q: Did that lead to self realization? He kept going on like this, and then there came a moment that I just plain had enough of it. Really just so much … I would not say that I became angry, but a shift took place in me, a shift of the accent on all authorities outside of myself, including Nisargadatta, to an authority inside myself. He was talking, and at a given moment he said 'nobody'. He said : 'Naturally there is nobody here who talks.' That was too much for me. And I said: 'If you don't talk then why don't you shut up then? Why say anything then?' And it seemed as if that is what had been waiting for. He said: 'Do you want that I should not talk anymore? That's good, then I won't talk anymore and if people want to know something then they can just go to Alexander. From now on there are no more translations, translators don't have to come anymore, there is no more English spoken. Only Marathi will be spoken, and if people have any problems then they can go to Alexander because he seems to know everything.' And then began all the trouble with the others, the bootlickers and toadies who insisted that I had to offer my apologies! Not on my life. Yeah, you can't offer excuses to a nobody, eh?! And to me he said; 'And you, you can't come here anymore.' And I said: 'What do you mean I can't come here anymore. Try and stop me. Have you gone completely crazy? ' And the translators were naturally completely upset. They said nothing like this had ever been seen before. And he was angry! Unbelievably angry!. And he threw the presents that I had brought for him at my feet and said: 'I want nothing from you, Nothing from you I want.' And that was the breakthrough, because something happened, there was no thinking because I was.. the shift in authority had happened. As I experienced it everything came to me from all sides: logic, understanding, on the one hand the intellect and on the other hand at the same time the heart, feelings and all phenomena, the entire manifest came directly to me from all sides to an absolute center where the whole thing exploded. Bang. After that everything became clear to me… The next day I went there as usual. There was a lecture, but indeed no English was spoken. I can assure you that the tension could be cut with a knife, because I was the guilty party of course. He wanted to push that down my throat and the translators just went along quietly. There was not even any talking. And the next day, there was not even a lecture. He arrived in a car, and drove away when he saw me and went to a movie… Then I wrote him a letter. Twelve pages. In perfect English. I had someone bring the letter to him. Everything was running over. I wrote everything. And his answer was: let him come tomorrow at 10 o'clock. And he read my letter and said: ´You understood. This confrontation was needed to eliminate that self-consciousness. But you understood completely and I am very happy with your letter and nothing happened.' Naturally , that cleared the air. He asked if I wanted to stay longer. 'From this situation that took place on September 21, 1978, I want to be here in love .' And he said; 'that is good.' From that day on I attended all the talks and also translated sometimes, for example when Spaniards, or Frenchmen or Germans came. I was a bit of a helper then. Q: So actually you apply the same method as he did: the cutting away of the self-consciousness to the bone and letting people see their identities. Was that his method? Yes. Recognizing the false as false and thereafter letting the truth be born. But the most wonderful thing was, MY basis dilemma, and if I say 'my' I mean everyone in a certain sense, is that if at a certain moment you ask yourself: what did I come here for, that seems to be something completely different from what you thought. Everyone has ideas about this question, and I had never suspected in the farthest reaches of my mind that the Realization of it would be something like this. That is the first point. The second is, it appears that a certain point you have the choice of maintaining your self-consciousness out of pride, arrogance, intellect. And the function of the Guru, the skill with which he can close the escapes from the real confrontation was in his case uncommonly great, at least in my case. And for me that was the decisive factor. Because if there had been a chance to 'escape', I would certainly have taken it. Like a thief who still tries to get away. Q: Did he ever say anything about it? He said that unbelievable courage is needed not to flee. And that my being there had almost given him a heart attack, that he no longer had the strength to tackle cases like mine as he became older. So I have the feeling that I got there at just the right moment. Later he became sick. He said: 'I have no strength anymore to try to convince people. If you like it, continue to come, maybe you can get something out of it, but I have no strength anymore to convince people like him (and then he pointed to me). I am so grateful to him, because it only showed how great my resistance was. There has to be a proportional force that is just a bit stronger than your strangest and strongest resistance. You need that. It showed how great my resistance was. And it showed how great his strength was, and his skill. For me he was the great Satguru. The fact that he was capable of defeating my most cunning resistance — and I can assure you after having gone into these things for 15 years — my resistance was extremely refined and cunning, was difficult for him even though he knew who he was dealing with. That's why I had to go to such a difficult person of course. It says everything about me. Just as he said in the beginning that it said everything about Frydman. But I have never seen the skill he had in closing the escape routes of the lies and falsehoods so immensely great anywhere else. Of course I have not been everywhere, but with Ramana Maharshi you just melted. That was another way. With Krishna Menon the intellect could just not keep it together under the gigantic dismantling, but by Nisargadatta, every escape was doomed to failure. People who came to get something, or people who thought they could bring something stood naked outside the door within five minutes. I saw a great many people there walking away in great terror. At a certain moment I was no longer afraid, because I felt that I had nothing more to lose. So I can't really say that it was very courageous of me. I can only say that in a certain sense with him I went on the attack. And what was nice about it is that he also valued that. Because, he sent many people away, and these really went and mostly didn't come back. The he would say: 'They are cowards. I didn't send them away, I sent away the part of them that was not acceptable here.' And if they then returned, completely open, then he would say nothing about it. But during those happenings with me, people forgot that. There was also a doctor, a really fine man, who said; 'don't think that he is being brutal with you; you don't have any idea how much love there is in him to do this with you.' I said: 'Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that.' Because I didn't want any commentary from anyone. After all, this is what I had come for! Only the form in which it happened was totally different from what I had expected in my wildest dreams. But again, that says more about me than about Maharaj, and I still think that. Q: So, his method was thus to let you recognize the false as false, to see through the lies as lies, and to come to truth in this way? Yes, and that went deeper than I could have ever suspected. The thinking was absolutely helpless. The intellect had no ghost of chance. The heart was also a trap. And that is exactly what happened there. That is everything. And I know that after that day, September 21, 1978, there has never been even a grain of doubt about this question, and the authority, the command, the authenticity, has never left, has never again shifted. There is no authority, neither in this world or in another world, that can thrust me out of the realization. That's the way it is. Posted by bob on Oct-22-04 10:35am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 >>---Thank you Era for Alexander Smith's sharings. In his experiences and openness he clarified several 'happenings' that i experienced and witnessed in '79. Oft times several exchanges (though less intense) occured. Indeed some could not tolerate being on the mat. But those who continued appeared to 'break through'. With others he was quite gentle, with simular results. This has aided my understanding of that aspect of his talks. John (formally jcoxco). In Nisargadatta , " Era " <mi_nok> wrote: > > Alexander Smit (midwife to the Dutch Advaita Movement) being > interviewed ... relates how his spiritual master > Nisargadatta worked on him. > > [Alexander met Nisargadatta in September of 1978.} > > > Q: What precisely did you want from him ? > > Self-realization. I wanted to know how I was put together. I said: 'I > have heard that your are the greatest ego killer who exists. And that > is what I want.' He said: 'I am not a killer. I am a diamond cutter. > > You are also a diamond. But you are a raw diamond and you can only be > cut by a pure diamond. And that is very precise work, because if that > is not done properly then you fall apart into a hundred pieces, and > then there is nothing left for you. Do you have any questions?' > > I told him that Maurice Frydman was the decisive reason for my > coming. Frydman was a friend of Krishnamurti and Frydman was planning > to publish all of the earlier work of Krishnamurti at Chetana > Publishers in Bombay, And that he had heard from Mr. Dikshit , the > publisher, that there was someone in Bombay who he > had to meet. (I AM THAT was of course not yet published at that time > because Frydman had yet to meet Nisargadatta). Frydman went there > with his usual skeptical ideas. He came in there, and within two > weeks things became clear to him that had never become clear with > Krishnamurti. And I thought then: if it all became clear to Frydman > within two weeks, how will it go with me? I told all this to > Nisargadatta and he said: 'That says nothing about me, but > everything about Frydman.' And he also said: 'People who don't > understand Krishnamurti don't understand themselves.' I thought that > was beautiful, because all the gurus I knew always ran everyone down. > It seemed as if he wanted to help me relax. He didn't launch any > provocations. I was able to relax, because as you can understand it > was of course a rather tense situation there. > > He said; 'Do you have any questions?' > > I said; 'No.' > > 'When are you going to come?' > > 'Every day if you allow me.' > > 'That's good. Come just two times every day, mornings and afternoons, > for the lectures, and we'll see how it goes.' > > I said: 'Yes, and I am not leaving until it has become clear.' > > He said; 'That's good.' > > Q: Was that true? > > Yes, without a doubt. Because what he did — within two minutes he > made it clear, whatever you brought up, that the knowledge you > presented was not yours. > > That it was from a book, or that you had borrowed or stolen it, or > that it was fantasy, but that you were actually not capable of having > a direct observation, a direct perception, seeing directly, > immediately, without a mediator, without self consciousness. > And that frightened me terribly, because everything you said was cut > down in a brutal way. > > Q: What happened with you exactly? > > The second day he asked if I had any questions. Then I began to ask a > question about reincarnation in a more or less romanticized way. I > told that I had always had a connection with India, that when I heard > the word 'India' for the first time it was shock for me, and that the > word 'yoga' was like being hit by a bomb when I first heard it on TV, > and that the word 'British India' was like a dog hearing his boss > whistle. And I asked, could it mean that I had lived in > India in previous lives? And then he began to curse in Marathi, and > to get unbelievably agitated, and that lasted for at least ten > minutes. I thought, my god, what's happening here? The translator was > apparently used to it, because he just sat calmly by, and when > Maharaj was finished he summarized it all together; 'Maharaj is > asking himself if you are really serious. Yesterday you > came and you wanted self-realization, but now you begin with > questions that belong in kindergarten'… > > In this way you were forced to be unbelievably alert. Everything > counted heavily. It became clear to me within a few days that I knew > absolutely nothing, that all that I knew, all the knowledge that I > had gathered was book knowledge, second hand, learned, but that out > of myself I knew nothing. I can assure you that this put what was > needed into motion. And that's how it went every day! Whatever I came > up with, whether I asked an intelligent question or a dumb question, > made absolutely no difference. And one day he asserted this, and the > following day he asserted precisely the opposite and the > following day he twisted it around one more time even though that was > not actually possible. And so it went, until by observation I > understood why that was, and that was a really wonderful realization. > Why do I try all the time to cram everything into concepts, to try to > understand everything in terms of thinking or in the feelings sphere? > And, he gave me tips about how I could look at things in another way, > thus really looking. And then it became clear to me that it just made > no sense to regard yourself — whatever you call yourself, or don't > call yourself — in that way. That was an absolute undermining of the > self-consciousness, like a termite eating a chair. At a certain > moment it becomes sawdust. It still looks like a chair, but it isn't > a chair anymore. > > Q: Did that lead to self realization? > > He kept going on like this, and then there came a moment that I just > plain had enough of it. Really just so much … I would not say that I > became angry, but a shift took place in me, a shift of the accent on > all authorities outside of myself, including Nisargadatta, to an > authority inside myself. He was talking, and at a given moment he > said 'nobody'. He said : 'Naturally there is nobody here who talks.' > That was too much for me. And I said: 'If you don't talk then > why don't you shut up then? Why say anything then?' > > And it seemed as if that is what had been waiting for. He said: 'Do > you want that I should not talk anymore? That's good, then I won't > talk anymore and if people want to know something then they can just > go to Alexander. From now on there are no more translations, > translators don't have to come anymore, there is no more English > spoken. Only Marathi will be spoken, and if people have any > problems then they can go to Alexander because he seems to know > everything.' > > And then began all the trouble with the others, the bootlickers and > toadies who insisted that I had to offer my apologies! Not on my > life. Yeah, you can't offer excuses to a nobody, eh?! > And to me he said; 'And you, you can't come here anymore.' And I > said: 'What do you mean I can't come here anymore. Try and stop me. > Have you gone completely crazy? ' And the translators were naturally > completely upset. They said nothing like this had ever been seen > before. And he was angry! Unbelievably angry!. And he threw the > presents that I had brought for him at my feet and said: 'I want > nothing from you, Nothing from you I want.' > > And that was the breakthrough, because something happened, there was > no thinking because I was.. the shift in authority had happened. As I > experienced it everything came to me from all sides: logic, > understanding, on the one hand the intellect and on the other hand at > the same time the heart, feelings and all phenomena, the entire > manifest came directly to me from all sides to an absolute center > where the whole thing exploded. Bang. After that everything > became clear to me… > > The next day I went there as usual. There was a lecture, but indeed > no English was spoken. I can assure you that the tension could be cut > with a knife, because I was the guilty party of course. He wanted to > push that down my throat and the translators just went along quietly. > There was not even any talking. > > And the next day, there was not even a lecture. He arrived in a car, > and drove away when he saw me and went to a movie… Then I wrote him a > letter. Twelve pages. In perfect English. I had someone bring the > letter to him. Everything was running over. I wrote everything. And > his answer was: let him come tomorrow at 10 o'clock. And he read my > letter and said: ´You understood. This confrontation was needed to > eliminate that self-consciousness. But you understood completely and > I am very happy with your letter and nothing happened.' > > Naturally , that cleared the air. He asked if I wanted to stay > longer. 'From this situation that took place on September 21, 1978, I > want to be here in love .' And he said; 'that is good.' From that day > on I attended all the talks and also translated sometimes, for > example when Spaniards, or Frenchmen or Germans came. I was a bit of > a helper then. > > Q: So actually you apply the same method as he did: the cutting away > of the self-consciousness to the bone and letting people see their > identities. Was that his method? > > Yes. Recognizing the false as false and thereafter letting the truth > be born. But the most wonderful thing was, MY basis dilemma, and if I > say 'my' I mean everyone in a certain sense, is that if at a certain > moment you ask yourself: > what did I come here for, that seems to be something completely > different from what you thought. Everyone has ideas about this > question, and I had never suspected in the farthest reaches of my > mind that the Realization of it would be something like this. That is > the first point. > > The second is, it appears that a certain point you have the choice of > maintaining your self-consciousness out of pride, arrogance, > intellect. And the function of the Guru, the skill with > which he can close the escapes from the real confrontation was in his > case uncommonly great, at least in my case. And for me that was the > decisive factor. > Because if there had been a chance to 'escape', I would certainly > have taken it. Like a thief who still tries to get away. > > Q: Did he ever say anything about it? > > He said that unbelievable courage is needed not to flee. And that my > being there had almost given him a heart attack, that he no longer > had the strength to tackle cases like mine as he became older. So I > have the feeling that I got there at just the right moment. Later he > became sick. He said: 'I have no strength anymore to try to convince > people. If you like it, continue to come, maybe you can get something > out of it, but I have no strength anymore to convince people like him > (and then he pointed to me). I am so grateful to him, > because it only showed how great my resistance was. There has to be a > proportional force that is just a bit stronger than your strangest > and > strongest resistance. You need that. It showed how great my > resistance was. And it showed how great his strength was, and his > skill. For me he was the great Satguru. The fact that he was capable > of defeating my most cunning resistance — > and I can assure you after having gone into these things for 15 > years — my resistance was extremely refined and cunning, was > difficult for him even though he knew who he was dealing with. That's > why I had to go to such a difficult person of course. It says > everything about me. Just as he said in the beginning > that it said everything about Frydman. But I have never seen the > skill he had in closing the escape routes of the lies and falsehoods > so immensely great anywhere else. > > Of course I have not been everywhere, but with Ramana Maharshi you > just melted. That was another way. With Krishna Menon the intellect > could just not keep it together under the gigantic dismantling, but > by Nisargadatta, every escape was doomed to failure. People who came > to get something, or people who thought they could bring something > stood naked outside the door within five minutes. I saw a > great many people there walking away in great terror. At a certain > moment I was no longer afraid, because I felt that I had nothing more > to lose. So I can't really say that it was very courageous of me. I > can only say that in a certain sense with him I went on the attack. > > And what was nice about it is that he also valued that. Because, he > sent many people away, and these really went and mostly didn't come > back. The he would say: 'They are cowards. I didn't send them away, I > sent away the part of them that was not acceptable here.' And if > they then returned, completely open, then he would say nothing about > it. But during those happenings with me, people forgot that. There > was also a doctor, a really fine man, who said; 'don't think that he > is being brutal with you; you don't have any idea how much love there > is in him to do this with you.' I said: 'Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know > that.' Because I didn't want any commentary from anyone. After all, > this is what I had come for! Only the form in which it > happened was totally different from what I had expected in my wildest > dreams. But again, that says more about me than about Maharaj, and I > still think that. > > Q: So, his method was thus to let you recognize the false as false, > to see through the lies as lies, and to come to truth in this way? > > Yes, and that went deeper than I could have ever suspected. The > thinking was absolutely helpless. The intellect had no ghost of > chance. The heart was also a trap. And that is exactly what happened > there. That is everything. And I know that after that day, September > 21, 1978, there has never been even a grain of doubt about this > question, and the authority, the command, the authenticity, > has never left, has never again shifted. There is no authority, > neither in this world or in another world, that can thrust me out of > the realization. That's the way it is. > > Posted by bob on Oct-22-04 10:35am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.