Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Caminamos > > <caminamosnet> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Do not pay attention to the literal meaning of my > > > > > sentences. Some of them act like a " koan " , trying to > > > > > open hiden doors somewhere in your mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead of looking to find hidden doors in your mind > > > > to open, look directly at/as this, now, as it is. > > > > > > > There's nothing beneath the surface that you need to find. > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > Try to find hidden doors isn't really much different from saying > > that > > > there is nothing beneath the surface: both are beliefs. > > > There is a lot beneath the surface, in the meaning of unconscious > > > motives, fears, reactions, yet, trying to " open it " with a goal > in > > > mind doesn't open it. > > > > > > Len > > > > > Wrong. " Nothing beneath the surface " is not a belief. > > > > It's clarity that there is no division into > > surface and depth. > > > > I know. All beliefs are clarity for true believers. > That's what beliefs are made for: to provide one clarity. Wrong again. Clarity can't be made into a concept. But of course, one uses words to communicate verbally, so I use the word " clarity. " How silly that I should have to explain something so obvious to you. But then, there is nothing sillier than missing what is obvious, while trying to dive for the depths. <s> > > But here's a diver's suit for you. > > > > Knock yourself out looking for the depths! > > > > A great self-made adventure to be on! > > > > But has nothing to do with the ending of > > the self-adventure. > > > > -- Dan > > > The ending of the self-adventure is another belief of the self > desperately searching for clarity. > > Len You're just doing the verbal sparring thing. Boring. Now, look into what you're actually doing moment to moment and you may see something worthwhile. Or, keep on with the sparring. The choice is yours, no one else's. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > I know. All beliefs are clarity for true believers. > > That's what beliefs are made for: to provide one clarity. > > Wrong again. > > Clarity can't be made into a concept. Just another concept you choose to cultivate. Gratuitous bullshit, which probably makes you feel better. It seems less harmful than chocolate, but I'm not sure. Well, it's your brain, anyway. > But of course, one uses words to communicate verbally, > so I use the word " clarity. " > > How silly that I should have to explain something so > obvious to you. > > But then, there is nothing sillier than missing what is > obvious, while trying to dive for the depths. <s> > > > > But here's a diver's suit for you. > > > > > > Knock yourself out looking for the depths! > > > > > > A great self-made adventure to be on! > > > > > > But has nothing to do with the ending of > > > the self-adventure. > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > The ending of the self-adventure is another belief of the self > > desperately searching for clarity. > > > > Len > > You're just doing the verbal sparring thing. > > Boring. I couldn' agree more: it's boring. And pointless. Len > Now, look into what you're actually doing moment > to moment and you may see something worthwhile. > > Or, keep on with the sparring. > > The choice is yours, no one else's. > > -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > > > I know. All beliefs are clarity for true believers. > > > That's what beliefs are made for: to provide one clarity. > > > > Wrong again. > > > > Clarity can't be made into a concept. > > > > Just another concept you choose to cultivate. > Gratuitous bullshit, which probably makes you feel better. > It seems less harmful than chocolate, but I'm not sure. > Well, it's your brain, anyway. This statement reveals where you're coming from. Just another person using lists as ways to trade verbal punches, spar, prove themselves right to themselves. So, you get the booby-prize, being right to yourself. You're stuck with it. -- Dan (nothing new below) > > But of course, one uses words to communicate verbally, > > so I use the word " clarity. " > > > > How silly that I should have to explain something so > > obvious to you. > > > > But then, there is nothing sillier than missing what is > > obvious, while trying to dive for the depths. <s> > > > > > > But here's a diver's suit for you. > > > > > > > > Knock yourself out looking for the depths! > > > > > > > > A great self-made adventure to be on! > > > > > > > > But has nothing to do with the ending of > > > > the self-adventure. > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > The ending of the self-adventure is another belief of the self > > > desperately searching for clarity. > > > > > > Len > > > > You're just doing the verbal sparring thing. > > > > Boring. > > > > I couldn' agree more: it's boring. And pointless. > > Len > > > > > > > Now, look into what you're actually doing moment > > to moment and you may see something worthwhile. > > > > Or, keep on with the sparring. > > > > The choice is yours, no one else's. > > > > -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> wrote: > This statement reveals where you're coming from. > > Just another person using lists as ways to trade verbal > punches, spar, prove themselves right to themselves. > > So, you get the booby-prize, being right to yourself. > > You're stuck with it. > > -- Dan I know that this is how it seems to you now, Dan. When you observe closely the nature of the process which brought you to these conclusions, which seem so real, you may discover that the only thing it reveals, is the content of some thoughts in your lovely head. This is the only place where the " person " you're talking about exists. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > > This statement reveals where you're coming from. > > > > Just another person using lists as ways to trade verbal > > punches, spar, prove themselves right to themselves. > > > > So, you get the booby-prize, being right to yourself. > > > > You're stuck with it. > > > > -- Dan > > > I know that this is how it seems to you now, Dan. > When you observe closely the nature of the process which brought you > to these conclusions, which seem so real, you may discover that the > only thing it reveals, is the content of some thoughts in your lovely > head. No process is involved, Len. Feel free to speculate all you wish. You'll always wind up back at square one. -- Dan (nothing new below) This is the only place where the " person " you're talking about > exists. > > Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> > wrote: > > > > > This statement reveals where you're coming from. > > > > > > Just another person using lists as ways to trade verbal > > > punches, spar, prove themselves right to themselves. > > > > > > So, you get the booby-prize, being right to yourself. > > > > > > You're stuck with it. > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > I know that this is how it seems to you now, Dan. > > When you observe closely the nature of the process which brought > you > > to these conclusions, which seem so real, you may discover that the > > only thing it reveals, is the content of some thoughts in your > lovely > > head. > No process is involved, Len. This is a beautiful example of a process which is going on while you're not aware of it. Thinking, memory, associations brought you to some conclusions, which only exist as a thought, an image in you, it's very subjective, limited, made out of thoughts and existing only due to a thought process in the brain, but you take it for a tangible, absolute reality. You're aware of the image but you're not aware of what the image is made of and how it's being brought about. Therefore you only see the " surface " of what's happening, like watching the movie, believing its content, and not being aware of how the movie is being projected on the screen. This is what is meant by " surface " and " depth " . You're only aware of the screen on which thoughts are projecting images, which seem real to you, because your eyes are conditioned to always focus on the screen, and neglect all the rest, but the moment your eyes change the focus, you recognize the screen as such, and also become aware of a three-dimensional world outside/around it. As long as the perception is limited to a two-dimensional world on a screen, there is nothing beneath the surface, and one keeps believing that what one thinks about people and things are those people and things :-) Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > This is a beautiful example of a process which is going on while > you're not aware of it. No, it's just words appearing on a computer screen. The rest is what " you " make of it -- for your purposes. And it's this self who makes meaning of things that is to be inquired into -- when one is ready for inquiry. > Thinking, memory, associations brought you to some conclusions, which > only exist as a thought, an image in you, it's very subjective, > limited, made out of thoughts and existing only due to a thought > process in the brain, but you take it for a tangible, absolute > reality. You're aware of the image but you're not aware of what the > image is made of and how it's being brought about. Therefore you only > see the " surface " of what's happening, like watching the movie, > believing its content, and not being aware of how the movie is being > projected on the screen. > This is what is meant by " surface " and " depth " . You're only aware of > the screen on which thoughts are projecting images, which seem real > to you, because your eyes are conditioned to always focus on the > screen, and neglect all the rest, but the moment your eyes change the > focus, you recognize the screen as such, and also become aware of a > three-dimensional world outside/around it. > As long as the perception is limited to a two-dimensional world on a > screen, there is nothing beneath the surface, and one keeps believing > that what one thinks about people and things are those people and > things :-) These words you presented may represent a process of which you're aware. But no one else is aware of this the way you are, directly. Once this is clear, inquiry goes into the nature of " immediacy. " What is this of which I alone am being aware, immediately, with no other involved in the being-aware? Indeed, it isn't even awareness, let alone something of which to be aware. It isn't things, or people, or time. There is, therefore, nothing born here and therefore nothing to die -- All constituted things and beings have no part to play in this -- as this is not conceptualizable. This immediacy of no name, of neither me nor you, is the resolution of all human conflicts and problems. Simply because neither human selves, consciousnesses, nor things have any hold here. This is peace which has no name. There is no movement toward this, nor away from this. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > > > This is a beautiful example of a process which is going on while > > you're not aware of it. > No, it's just words appearing on a computer screen. > > The rest is what " you " make of it -- for your purposes. Exactly. Now apply this to your imaginations about my " person " . Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > > > > > This is a beautiful example of a process which is going on while > > > you're not aware of it. > > > > No, it's just words appearing on a computer screen. > > > > The rest is what " you " make of it -- for your purposes. > > > Exactly. > Now apply this to your imaginations about my " person " . > > Len I don't have any to apply it to. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <berkowd@u...> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > <lissbon2002> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This is a beautiful example of a process which is going on > while > > > > you're not aware of it. > > > > > > > No, it's just words appearing on a computer screen. > > > > > > The rest is what " you " make of it -- for your purposes. > > > > > > Exactly. > > Now apply this to your imaginations about my " person " . > > > > Len > > I don't have any to apply it to. > > -- Dan I understand. It doesn't suit you now. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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