Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Hi group: There is an interesting site::http://www.unitaryperception.org/index.htm The site owner Doctor Ruben Feldman Gonzalez [a brain doctor]have some free online books about his experimenting with awakening to " what is " using the senses [not concepts]. It look like a living meditation.Can you or anyone in the group take a look to his site and comment about? Sometime ago I asked him about non duality and he told me that nonduality knowledge is mere philosophy and intellectual games that have nothing to do with eliminating suffering.Thanks Atagrasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " atagrasin " <k1c2@h...> wrote: > > Hi group: > There is an interesting > site::http://www.unitaryperception.org/index.htm The site owner > Doctor Ruben Feldman Gonzalez [a brain doctor]have some free online > books about his experimenting with awakening to " what is " using the > senses [not concepts]. > It look like a > living meditation.Can you or anyone in the group take a look to his > site and comment about? Sometime ago I asked him about non duality and > he told me that nonduality knowledge is mere philosophy and > intellectual games that have nothing to do with eliminating > suffering.Thanks > Atagrasin Thanks. It looks very interesting. I looked briefly at his work. I found his teaching similar to J. Krishnamurti's. But I have to read more of his works to make a fair comment. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 > > he told me that nonduality knowledge is mere philosophy and > > intellectual games that have nothing to do with eliminating > > suffering.Thanks > > Atagrasin > > Thanks. It looks very interesting. I looked briefly at his work. I > found his teaching similar to J. Krishnamurti's. But I have to read > more of his works to make a fair comment. > > /AL Hi AL: Yes Al,Unitary Perception imply the living[not the talking] of the Nisargadatta Maharaj teachings.If you don't use the memory [not labeling]then the living of the reality of what is as it is happen.R.F.G. wrote: I'm trying to avoid every complication. Look at this: " I " as an observer, am looking at something. I'm concentrating my attention on one thing. Since I know I'm only thought (knowledge, memory) it is thought creating a limited space between the observer (Ruben) and the observed (a car). The observer, who is concentrating, is bound to the thing (or person) observed by all the products of thought: desire, fear, comparison, rejection, justification, condemnation, anger, sorrow, frustration, etc.) The limited space (observer-observed) created by thought is a hell of conflict. Now, you cannot stop thinking because you are thought. The only way out of the trap of horizontal conflict is Unitary Perception. When you perceive everything perceivable[senses] at the same time without words, in silence, in a very passive awareness that is full of energy, then there is only observation. That Unitary Perception or total observation is not limiting space [condensing and creating boundaries in undifferentiated energy by labeling] In Unitary Perception space is one because everything in life is happening in space: sound, color, shapes, gravity and the process of thought. Atagrasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " atagrasin " <k1c2@h...> wrote: > > > > he told me that nonduality knowledge is mere philosophy and > > > intellectual games that have nothing to do with eliminating > > > suffering.Thanks > > > Atagrasin > > > > Thanks. It looks very interesting. I looked briefly at his work. I > > found his teaching similar to J. Krishnamurti's. But I have to read > > more of his works to make a fair comment. > > > > /AL > Hi AL: > Yes Al,Unitary Perception imply the living[not the talking] of the > Nisargadatta Maharaj teachings.If you don't use the memory [not > labeling]then the living of the reality of what is as it is > happen.R.F.G. wrote: I'm trying to avoid every complication. Look at > this: " I " as an observer, am looking at something. I'm concentrating > my attention on one > thing. Since I know I'm only thought (knowledge, memory) it is > thought creating a limited space between the observer (Ruben) and the > observed > (a car). The observer, who is concentrating, is bound to the thing > (or person) observed by all the products of thought: desire, fear, > comparison, rejection, justification, condemnation, anger, sorrow, > frustration, etc.) > The limited space (observer-observed) created by thought is a hell of > conflict. > Now, you cannot stop thinking because you are thought. > The only way out of the trap of horizontal conflict is Unitary > Perception. > When you perceive everything perceivable[senses] at the same time > without words, in silence, in a very passive awareness that is full > of energy, then there > is only observation. > That Unitary Perception or total observation is not limiting space > [condensing and creating boundaries in undifferentiated energy by > labeling] In Unitary Perception space is one because everything in > life is happening in space: sound, color, shapes, gravity and the > process of thought. > Atagrasin I like Ruben's description: space is one. There is no past or future space. There is only one space. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 atagrasin wrote: > > > > he told me that nonduality knowledge is mere philosophy and > > > intellectual games that have nothing to do with eliminating > > > suffering.Thanks > > > Atagrasin > > > > Thanks. It looks very interesting. I looked briefly at his work. I > > found his teaching similar to J. Krishnamurti's. But I have to read > > more of his works to make a fair comment. > > > > /AL > Hi AL: > Yes Al,Unitary Perception imply the living[not the talking] of the > Nisargadatta Maharaj teachings.If you don't use the memory [not > labeling]then the living of the reality of what is as it is > happen.R.F.G. wrote: I'm trying to avoid every complication. Look at > this: " I " as an observer, am looking at something. I'm concentrating > my attention on one > thing. Since I know I'm only thought (knowledge, memory) it is > thought creating a limited space between the observer (Ruben) and the > observed > (a car). The observer, who is concentrating, is bound to the thing > (or person) observed by all the products of thought: desire, fear, > comparison, rejection, justification, condemnation, anger, sorrow, > frustration, etc.) > The limited space (observer-observed) created by thought is a hell of > conflict. > Now, you cannot stop thinking because you are thought. > The only way out of the trap of horizontal conflict is Unitary > Perception. > When you perceive everything perceivable[senses] at the same time > without words, in silence, in a very passive awareness that is full > of energy, then there > is only observation. > That Unitary Perception or total observation is not limiting space > [condensing and creating boundaries in undifferentiated energy by > labeling] In Unitary Perception space is one because everything in > life is happening in space: sound, color, shapes, gravity and the > process of thought. > Atagrasin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Atagrasin, Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, and observation in Unitary Perception, what is next? Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10 wrote: > Dear Atagrasin, > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > and observation in > Unitary Perception, what is next? > > Lewis If there is a 'you' remaining to ask such a question, to observe silence and so on ...I'm afraid you've missed, you're still far off track. -dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , Dave Sirjue <davesirjue> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " atagrasin " > > <k1c2@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > he told me that nonduality knowledge is mere > > philosophy and > > > > > intellectual games that have nothing to do > > with eliminating > > > > > suffering.Thanks > > > > > Atagrasin > > > > > > Yep, some of these guys don't have the slightest clue > what they're prattling about. > Below is simple exercise that provides a brief > glimpse,insight or taste. > > 'Trataka' is steady gazing at a particular point or > object without winking. Though this is one of the six > purificatory exercises, it is mainly intended for > developing concentration and mental focusing. Some of > the students who claim that they belong to Jnana Yoga, > neglect such important exercises since they are > described under Hatha Yogic portions. Sri Ramana > Maharshi the famous Jnani of Tiruvannamalai, was doing > this exercise. You could have seen it clearly if you > had been to his Ashram for his Darshan. While seated > on his sofa in his room, he used to gaze on the walls. > When he sat on the veranda in an easy-chair, he > steadily looked at the distant hills or at the sky. > This enabled him to keep up a balanced state of mind. > Nothing could distract his mind. He was very calm and > cool always. He was not at all distracted by any one > even though his Bhaktas might be talking and singing > by his side. > > What a shaky mind and flimsy Unitary Perception Ramana must have had if he had to look at the wall or some distant sky in order to keep a balanced state of mind. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Dave Sirjue wrote: > > --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10 wrote: > > > Dear Atagrasin, > > > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > > and observation in > > Unitary Perception, what is next? > > > > Lewis > > If there is a 'you' remaining to ask such a question, > to observe silence and so on ...I'm afraid you've > missed, you're still far off track. > > -dave > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Dave, The question was directed to Atagrasin as per post. A simple question. Is there something harmful or something sinister cloaked in this question? Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Dave Sirjue <davesirjue> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " atagrasin " > > > <k1c2@h...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > he told me that nonduality knowledge is mere > > > philosophy and > > > > > > intellectual games that have nothing to do > > > with eliminating > > > > > > suffering.Thanks > > > > > > Atagrasin > > > > > > > > > Yep, some of these guys don't have the slightest clue > > what they're prattling about. > > Below is simple exercise that provides a brief > > glimpse,insight or taste. > > > > 'Trataka' is steady gazing at a particular point or > > object without winking. Though this is one of the six > > purificatory exercises, it is mainly intended for > > developing concentration and mental focusing. Some of > > the students who claim that they belong to Jnana Yoga, > > neglect such important exercises since they are > > described under Hatha Yogic portions. Sri Ramana > > Maharshi the famous Jnani of Tiruvannamalai, was doing > > this exercise. You could have seen it clearly if you > > had been to his Ashram for his Darshan. While seated > > on his sofa in his room, he used to gaze on the walls. > > When he sat on the veranda in an easy-chair, he > > steadily looked at the distant hills or at the sky. > > This enabled him to keep up a balanced state of mind. > > Nothing could distract his mind. He was very calm and > > cool always. He was not at all distracted by any one > > even though his Bhaktas might be talking and singing > > by his side. > > > > > > What a shaky mind and flimsy Unitary Perception Ramana must have had > if he had to look at the wall or some distant sky in order to keep a > balanced state of mind. ;-) Yes, quite so, Anders. When you think you've got it, you don't. Truth has no reference point, no landing place. -- Dan " Gnosis is spontaneously present without meditation; You will not find me by constructing a meditation. " -Jigme Lingpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: > > > What a shaky mind and flimsy Unitary Perception > Ramana must have had > if he had to look at the wall or some distant sky in > order to keep a > balanced state of mind. ;-) > Actually, it may have been a linquistic error on the part of the author. Ramana never performed any exercise to arrive or remain in any state. It was the converse. In the natural state he appeared as an " unblinking idiot " , to use UG's phraseology. -dave Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 > The question was directed to Atagrasin as per post. > A simple question. > Is there something harmful or something sinister > cloaked in this question? > > Lewis Dear Lewis, This is an open forum and I'm involved in this particular thread. There's nothing personal here...everyone is invited to make an input in this forum when appropriate. But if you're asking me to shut up that's also fine with me. Good luck -dave Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Dave Sirjue wrote: --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10 wrote: > Dear Atagrasin, > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > and observation in > Unitary Perception, what is next? > > Lewis If there is a 'you' remaining to ask such a question, to observe silence and so on ...I'm afraid you've missed, you're still far off track. -dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Dave, The question was directed to Atagrasin as per post. A simple question. Is there something harmful or something sinister cloaked in this question? Lewis > > Dear Lewis, > > This is an open forum and I'm involved in this > particular thread. There's nothing personal > here...everyone is invited to make an input > in this forum when appropriate. > But if you're asking me to shut up that's also > fine with me. > > Good luck > -dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Dave, You are most welcome to answer the question asked Atagrasin. Also, anything you wish to say, will be received. There are no barriers. Your contributions are welcome, Dave. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 > --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > Dear Atagrasin, > > > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > > and observation in > > Unitary Perception, what is next? When questioning stop,silence happens,when silence happens then, who wants to know? Atagrasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 atagrasin wrote: > > > --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > Dear Atagrasin, > > > > > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > > > and observation in > > > Unitary Perception, what is next? > When questioning stop,silence happens,when silence happens then, > who wants to know? > Atagrasin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ No one. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > atagrasin wrote: > > > > > --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Atagrasin, > > > > > > > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > > > > and observation in > > > > Unitary Perception, what is next? > > When questioning stop,silence happens,when silence happens then, > > who wants to know? > > Atagrasin > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > No one. > > Lewis Unitary perception is a contradiction in terms.......there could be no such thing. t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 toombaru2004 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > atagrasin wrote: > > > > > > > --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Atagrasin, > > > > > > > > > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > > > > > and observation in > > > > > Unitary Perception, what is next? > > > When questioning stop,silence happens,when silence happens then, > > > who wants to know? > > > Atagrasin > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > No one. > > > > Lewis > > > > > Unitary perception is a contradiction in terms.......there could be no > such thing. > > > > > t. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Percepts are usually defined as a basic component in the formation of a concept, an immediate unanalyzable private object of sensation, a discrete representation of what is perceived such as " red " that may be seen atop a " vehicle. " So the term, unexplained or described, is misleading in that the term implies unification of discrete perceptions, a distinctly egotist effort and one doomed to create illusions. However, unitary perception is a " goal-less being " or a " form of silence " that encourages goal-less attention and, in being this and living this, there is the complete suspension of the formation discrete perceptions and thoughts and complete silence. In this sense it is akin to what is spoken about in this forum. But, because Feldman Gonzalez is an activist in the Krishnamurti tradition, then the original post about it here was to encourage transformative action in the world in addition to dialogue. Nevertheless, Dr. Feldman Gonzalez makes it possible for this stated description to be misunderstood by seeking egos because of the use of dualistic language and by pointing to the brain and mind as the medium and mechanism through which this is practiced. So, the term and these other ideas makes it possible for unitary perception to be easily misconstrued by egos seeking enlightenment to mean that " they " must hold off during observation, be silent internally so that the whole is perceived " as it is " not as " i " want or wish. This cannot be achieved by the mind or brain. The visual system and the mind simply adds what it notices in attention, one perception, then another, then another, then another, and if an ego allows this to continue there may be a sense that one is getting the whole by refusing to halt a continuous line of gradually accruing and integrating perceptions and thoughts. But such an ego achievement yields only illusions. Dr. Feldman Gonzalez describes as much, realizes it, but has yet to refine the language and and description of the experience of non-duality so that ego readers are directed to more carefully towards " their " dissipation. Taken positively, unitary perception is meditation Krishnamurti style (Krishnamurti: Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. Throw away the content of consciousness. There has to be pure consciousness, pure awareness, pure listening) that is couched in modern language with activist intentions in the background. Unitary perception is founded in the work of Krishnamurti and is a neologism adopted by Dr. Feldman Gonzalez during a conversation with Krishnamurti (See www.unitaryperception.org/writings.htm " My Dialogues with Krishnamurti 1975-1986, pp. 11, 8). It can be said that all ideas, concepts, labels, mental constructions, etc. are unreal. Unitary perception is a mental construction and and an idea. Therefore, unitary perception is unreal. As Toombaru simply says " there could be no such thing. " Logic has its uses in the world of duality, but it is simply a tool or a toy for communication between egos in that world. Postings are written ideas. They too are unreal. So why post unrealities, is it not a waste of time? Since there are so many egos still existing, the postings, unitary perception and other unrealities found here and there will find welcome homes and will or will not be used in one way or another...... They are used for.....well, whatever ego allows the mind to do with them,.....to convince, to guide, to share, to help, to create pain, to confuse, to live, to dream, to change, to grow, to chastise, to encourage, to wake up, to dissolve, to make money, to build status, to be right, to be superior, to look down on others, to pity, to have compassion, to show off, to demonstrate, to learn, to.....ad infinitum. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > toombaru2004 wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > atagrasin wrote: > > > > > > > > > --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Atagrasin, > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > > > > > > and observation in > > > > > > Unitary Perception, what is next? > > > > When questioning stop,silence happens,when silence happens then, > > > > who wants to know? > > > > Atagrasin > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > No one. > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > > > > > Unitary perception is a contradiction in terms.......there could be no > > such thing. > > > > > > > > > > t. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Percepts are usually defined as a basic component in the formation of a > concept, an immediate unanalyzable private object of sensation, a > discrete representation of what is perceived such as " red " that may be > seen atop a " vehicle. " So the term, unexplained or described, is > misleading in that the term implies unification of discrete perceptions, > a distinctly egotist effort and one doomed to create illusions. > The " ego " itself is an illusion....It is a descritive word that mind had come up with to define its illusory self. > However, unitary perception is a " goal-less being " or a " form of > silence " that encourages goal-less attention and, in being this and > living this, there is the complete suspension of the formation discrete > perceptions and thoughts and complete silence. In this sense it is akin > to what is spoken about in this forum. But, because Feldman Gonzalez is > an activist in the Krishnamurti tradition, then the original post about > it here was to encourage transformative action in the world in addition > to dialogue. Mind imagines that there is some thing or somewhere beyond its own borders......even if that were true ....it can never know that.... > > Nevertheless, Dr. Feldman Gonzalez makes it possible for this stated > description to be misunderstood by seeking egos because of the use of > dualistic language All language is dualistic. and by pointing to the brain and mind as the medium > and mechanism through which this is practiced. > > So, the term and these other ideas makes it possible for unitary > perception to be easily misconstrued by egos seeking enlightenment There are no egos seeking enlightenment..........There is only consciousness......seeking. to > mean that " they " must hold off during observation, be silent internally > so that the whole is perceived " as it is " In order to perceive the " whole " .....the seer would have to be separated from it.....which means that it would no longer be whole. not as " i " want or wish. This > cannot be achieved by the mind or brain. Do you believe that there exists a portion of the entity that exists beyond the brain and mind? The visual system and the mind > simply adds what it notices in attention, one perception, then another, > then another, then another, and if an ego allows this to continue there > may be a sense that one is getting the whole by refusing to halt a > continuous line of gradually accruing and integrating perceptions and > thoughts. But such an ego achievement yields only illusions. > > Dr. Feldman Gonzalez describes as much, realizes it, but has yet to > refine the language and and description of the experience of non-duality > so that ego readers are directed to more carefully towards " their " > dissipation. The attempt to dissipate one's self only adds to its credibility. > > Taken positively, unitary perception is meditation Krishnamurti style > (Krishnamurti: Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. Throw away > the content of consciousness. There has to be pure consciousness, pure > awareness, pure listening) that is couched in modern language with > activist intentions in the background. Unitary perception is founded in > the work of Krishnamurti and is a neologism adopted by Dr. Feldman > Gonzalez during a conversation with Krishnamurti (See > www.unitaryperception.org/writings.htm " My Dialogues with Krishnamurti > 1975-1986, pp. 11, 8). > > It can be said that all ideas, concepts, labels, mental constructions, > etc. are unreal. Unitary perception is a mental construction and and an > idea. Therefore, unitary perception is unreal. > > As Toombaru simply says " there could be no such thing. " > > Logic has its uses in the world of duality, but it is simply a tool or a > toy for communication between egos in that world. > > Postings are written ideas. They too are unreal. So why post > unrealities, is it not a waste of time? > There is no choice involved. > Since there are so many egos still existing, the postings, unitary > perception and other unrealities found here and there will find welcome > homes and will or will not be used in one way or another...... > They are used for.....well, whatever ego allows the mind to do with > them,.....to convince, to guide, to share, to help, to create pain, to > confuse, to live, to dream, to change, to grow, to chastise, to > encourage, to wake up, to dissolve, to make money, to build status, to > be right, to be superior, to look down on others, to pity, to have > compassion, to show off, to demonstrate, to learn, to.....ad infinitum. > They can do all that.......and more..............but it is the infinite chain of causation that " decides " ....not the ego. t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 toombaru2004 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > toombaru2004 wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > atagrasin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Atagrasin, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > > > > > > > and observation in > > > > > > > Unitary Perception, what is next? > > > > > When questioning stop,silence happens,when silence happens > then, > > > > > who wants to know? > > > > > Atagrasin > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > No one. > > > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unitary perception is a contradiction in terms.......there could be no > > > such thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > t. > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Percepts are usually defined as a basic component in the formation of a > > concept, an immediate unanalyzable private object of sensation, a > > discrete representation of what is perceived such as " red " that may be > > seen atop a " vehicle. " So the term, unexplained or described, is > > misleading in that the term implies unification of discrete perceptions, > > a distinctly egotist effort and one doomed to create illusions. > > > > > The " ego " itself is an illusion....It is a descritive word that mind had > come up with to define its illusory self. > > > > However, unitary perception is a " goal-less being " or a " form of > > silence " that encourages goal-less attention and, in being this and > > living this, there is the complete suspension of the formation discrete > > perceptions and thoughts and complete silence. In this sense it is akin > > to what is spoken about in this forum. But, because Feldman Gonzalez is > > an activist in the Krishnamurti tradition, then the original post about > > it here was to encourage transformative action in the world in addition > > to dialogue. > > > > Mind imagines that there is some thing or somewhere beyond its own > borders......even if that were true ....it can never know that.... > > > > Nevertheless, Dr. Feldman Gonzalez makes it possible for this stated > > description to be misunderstood by seeking egos because of the use of > > dualistic language > > > > > All language is dualistic. > > > > > > and by pointing to the brain and mind as the medium > > and mechanism through which this is practiced. > > > > So, the term and these other ideas makes it possible for unitary > > perception to be easily misconstrued by egos seeking enlightenment > > > There are no egos seeking enlightenment..........There is only > consciousness......seeking. > > > > > to > > mean that " they " must hold off during observation, be silent internally > > so that the whole is perceived " as it is " > > > In order to perceive the " whole " .....the seer would have to be separated > from it.....which means that it would no longer be whole. not as " i " want or wish. This > > cannot be achieved by the mind or brain. > > > Do you believe that there exists a portion of the entity that exists > beyond the brain and mind? The visual system and the mind > > simply adds what it notices in attention, one perception, then another, > > then another, then another, and if an ego allows this to continue there > > may be a sense that one is getting the whole by refusing to halt a > > continuous line of gradually accruing and integrating perceptions and > > thoughts. But such an ego achievement yields only illusions. > > > > Dr. Feldman Gonzalez describes as much, realizes it, but has yet to > > refine the language and and description of the experience of non-duality > > so that ego readers are directed to more carefully towards " their " > > dissipation. > > > The attempt to dissipate one's self only adds to its credibility. > > > > > > > > Taken positively, unitary perception is meditation Krishnamurti style > > (Krishnamurti: Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. Throw away > > the content of consciousness. There has to be pure consciousness, pure > > awareness, pure listening) that is couched in modern language with > > activist intentions in the background. Unitary perception is founded in > > the work of Krishnamurti and is a neologism adopted by Dr. Feldman > > Gonzalez during a conversation with Krishnamurti (See > > www.unitaryperception.org/writings.htm " My Dialogues with Krishnamurti > > 1975-1986, pp. 11, 8). > > > > It can be said that all ideas, concepts, labels, mental constructions, > > etc. are unreal. Unitary perception is a mental construction and and an > > idea. Therefore, unitary perception is unreal. > > > > As Toombaru simply says " there could be no such thing. " > > > > Logic has its uses in the world of duality, but it is simply a tool or a > > toy for communication between egos in that world. > > > > Postings are written ideas. They too are unreal. So why post > > unrealities, is it not a waste of time? > > > > > There is no choice involved. > > > > > Since there are so many egos still existing, the postings, unitary > > perception and other unrealities found here and there will find welcome > > homes and will or will not be used in one way or another...... > > They are used for.....well, whatever ego allows the mind to do with > > them,.....to convince, to guide, to share, to help, to create pain, to > > confuse, to live, to dream, to change, to grow, to chastise, to > > encourage, to wake up, to dissolve, to make money, to build status, to > > be right, to be superior, to look down on others, to pity, to have > > compassion, to show off, to demonstrate, to learn, to.....ad infinitum. > > > > > > They can do all that.......and more..............but it is the infinite > chain of causation that " decides " ....not the ego. > > > > > > t. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Beliefs are unreal.... The ego is not real and so it cannot be dissipated. That is simple. Attempts to dissolve it always prove illusory and confounding..... There is no mind.... It is unreal. Choice is a construct, it is unreal..... Language is dualistic and when seen for what it is, it can be expressed more or less so or paradoxically......as is done in this forum. All language is unreal...... Words are illusions.........and point to illusions..... Such concepts as the infinite chain of causation are unreal.....an illusion.... Ego seeking enlightenment is illusory. No thing seeking no thing equals no thing. This is simple phenomena. The illusion of " choice " does not lessen its appearance as " real " to an " ego " as " phenomena. " From the viewpoint of ego as phenomena and its myriad of " subegos " in which the appearance of " self-conversation " and " thinking " is continuously appearing there is confusion for it as phenomena. Such confusion is the source of suffering for billions of minds and bodies. Seeing this, " Consciousness.....seeking " posts, speaks, helps, learns. (This paragraph refers to nothing but illusions) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posting here reaches that which is and that which is not and in doing so is a part of consciousness moving towards the release from illusion. When consciousness speaks it may do so at any point in the phenomena. There is no necessary point of departure or end, since there is neither. It simply is and simply does. " Consciousness.....seeking " uses the mind and body to do as it is and does even creating illusions that aid in the release from illusion. Toombaru is " consciousness...seeking. " Toombaru reads, composes, writes, posts, responds...(in silence?). There is no who, when, where, why, what or how. Toombaru is and does. So do all here and everywhere. " Consciousness " is " behind " all. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If consciousness chooses to use the mind and body to create an affectionate embrace of Toombaru is this an illusion? If consciousness chooses to use language to express ideas that are necessarily and usually paradoxical illusions so as to aid in the release from illusion is this not an illusion aiding illusions? If consciousness chooses the personal pronouns " I " and " me " " you " to create the illusion of " person " does consciousness fall prey to its illusions and become confused? Are these and other illusion making activities of consciousness ordinary and effortless and done in clarity? Have not " Toombaru's " many illusions been useful? Consciousness uses minds and bodies to create illusions. These are the capabilities of mind and body. The " world " is illusory for that is what it is and it used by consciousness in joy. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > toombaru2004 wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > toombaru2004 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > atagrasin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Atagrasin, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > > > > > > > > and observation in > > > > > > > > Unitary Perception, what is next? > > > > > > When questioning stop,silence happens,when silence happens > > then, > > > > > > who wants to know? > > > > > > Atagrasin > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > > > No one. > > > > > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unitary perception is a contradiction in terms.......there could be no > > > > such thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > t. > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Percepts are usually defined as a basic component in the formation of a > > > concept, an immediate unanalyzable private object of sensation, a > > > discrete representation of what is perceived such as " red " that may be > > > seen atop a " vehicle. " So the term, unexplained or described, is > > > misleading in that the term implies unification of discrete perceptions, > > > a distinctly egotist effort and one doomed to create illusions. > > > > > > > > > The " ego " itself is an illusion....It is a descritive word that mind had > > come up with to define its illusory self. > > > > > > > However, unitary perception is a " goal-less being " or a " form of > > > silence " that encourages goal-less attention and, in being this and > > > living this, there is the complete suspension of the formation discrete > > > perceptions and thoughts and complete silence. In this sense it is akin > > > to what is spoken about in this forum. But, because Feldman Gonzalez is > > > an activist in the Krishnamurti tradition, then the original post about > > > it here was to encourage transformative action in the world in addition > > > to dialogue. > > > > > > > > Mind imagines that there is some thing or somewhere beyond its own > > borders......even if that were true ....it can never know that.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, Dr. Feldman Gonzalez makes it possible for this stated > > > description to be misunderstood by seeking egos because of the use of > > > dualistic language > > > > > > > > > > All language is dualistic. > > > > > > > > > > > > and by pointing to the brain and mind as the medium > > > and mechanism through which this is practiced. > > > > > > So, the term and these other ideas makes it possible for unitary > > > perception to be easily misconstrued by egos seeking enlightenment > > > > > > There are no egos seeking enlightenment..........There is only > > consciousness......seeking. > > > > > > > > > > to > > > mean that " they " must hold off during observation, be silent internally > > > so that the whole is perceived " as it is " > > > > > > In order to perceive the " whole " .....the seer would have to be separated > > from it.....which means that it would no longer be whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not as " i " want or wish. This > > > cannot be achieved by the mind or brain. > > > > > > Do you believe that there exists a portion of the entity that exists > > beyond the brain and mind? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The visual system and the mind > > > simply adds what it notices in attention, one perception, then another, > > > then another, then another, and if an ego allows this to continue there > > > may be a sense that one is getting the whole by refusing to halt a > > > continuous line of gradually accruing and integrating perceptions and > > > thoughts. But such an ego achievement yields only illusions. > > > > > > Dr. Feldman Gonzalez describes as much, realizes it, but has yet to > > > refine the language and and description of the experience of non-duality > > > so that ego readers are directed to more carefully towards " their " > > > dissipation. > > > > > > The attempt to dissipate one's self only adds to its credibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Taken positively, unitary perception is meditation Krishnamurti style > > > (Krishnamurti: Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. Throw away > > > the content of consciousness. There has to be pure consciousness, pure > > > awareness, pure listening) that is couched in modern language with > > > activist intentions in the background. Unitary perception is founded in > > > the work of Krishnamurti and is a neologism adopted by Dr. Feldman > > > Gonzalez during a conversation with Krishnamurti (See > > > www.unitaryperception.org/writings.htm " My Dialogues with Krishnamurti > > > 1975-1986, pp. 11, 8). > > > > > > It can be said that all ideas, concepts, labels, mental constructions, > > > etc. are unreal. Unitary perception is a mental construction and and an > > > idea. Therefore, unitary perception is unreal. > > > > > > As Toombaru simply says " there could be no such thing. " > > > > > > Logic has its uses in the world of duality, but it is simply a tool or a > > > toy for communication between egos in that world. > > > > > > Postings are written ideas. They too are unreal. So why post > > > unrealities, is it not a waste of time? > > > > > > > > > There is no choice involved. > > > > > > > > > Since there are so many egos still existing, the postings, unitary > > > perception and other unrealities found here and there will find welcome > > > homes and will or will not be used in one way or another...... > > > They are used for.....well, whatever ego allows the mind to do with > > > them,.....to convince, to guide, to share, to help, to create pain, to > > > confuse, to live, to dream, to change, to grow, to chastise, to > > > encourage, to wake up, to dissolve, to make money, to build status, to > > > be right, to be superior, to look down on others, to pity, to have > > > compassion, to show off, to demonstrate, to learn, to.....ad infinitum. > > > > > > > > > > > They can do all that.......and more..............but it is the infinite > > chain of causation that " decides " ....not the ego. > > > > > > > > > > > > t. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Beliefs are unreal.... > > The ego is not real and so it cannot be dissipated. That is simple. > Attempts to dissolve it always prove illusory and confounding..... > > There is no mind.... It is unreal. > > Choice is a construct, it is unreal..... > > Language is dualistic and when seen for what it is, it can be expressed > more or less so or paradoxically......as is done in this forum. All > language is unreal...... > > Words are illusions.........and point to illusions..... > > Such concepts as the infinite chain of causation are unreal.....an > illusion.... > > Ego seeking enlightenment is illusory. No thing seeking no thing equals > no thing. This is simple phenomena. > > The illusion of " choice " does not lessen its appearance as " real " to an > " ego " as " phenomena. " From the viewpoint of ego as phenomena and its > myriad of " subegos " in which the appearance of " self-conversation " and > " thinking " is continuously appearing there is confusion for it as > phenomena. Such confusion is the source of suffering for billions of > minds and bodies. Seeing this, " Consciousness.....seeking " posts, > speaks, helps, learns. (This paragraph refers to nothing but illusions) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Posting here reaches that which is and that which is not and in doing so > is a part of consciousness moving towards the release from illusion. > > When consciousness speaks it may do so at any point in the phenomena. > > There is no necessary point of departure or end, since there is neither. > > It simply is and simply does. > > " Consciousness.....seeking " uses the mind and body to do as it is and > does even creating illusions that aid in the release from illusion. > > Toombaru is " consciousness...seeking. " > > Toombaru reads, composes, writes, posts, responds...(in silence?). > > There is no who, when, where, why, what or how. > > Toombaru is and does. > > So do all here and everywhere. " Consciousness " is " behind " all. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > If consciousness chooses to use the mind and body to create an > affectionate embrace of Toombaru is this an illusion? > > If consciousness chooses to use language to express ideas that are > necessarily and usually paradoxical illusions so as to aid in the > release from illusion is this not an illusion aiding illusions? > > If consciousness chooses the personal pronouns " I " and " me " " you " to > create the illusion of " person " does consciousness fall prey to its > illusions and become confused? > > Are these and other illusion making activities of consciousness ordinary > and effortless and done in clarity? > > Have not " Toombaru's " many illusions been useful? > > Consciousness uses minds and bodies to create illusions. These are the > capabilities of mind and body. > > The " world " is illusory for that is what it is and it used by > consciousness in joy. > > Lewis There is no release from illusion. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 toombaru2004 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > toombaru2004 wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru2004 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess > <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > atagrasin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Atagrasin, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that there is only silence, passive awareness, > > > > > > > > > and observation in > > > > > > > > > Unitary Perception, what is next? > > > > > > > When questioning stop,silence happens,when silence > happens > > > then, > > > > > > > who wants to > know? > > > > > > > Atagrasin > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > > > > > No one. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unitary perception is a contradiction in terms.......there > could be no > > > > > such thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > t. > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > Percepts are usually defined as a basic component in the > formation of a > > > > concept, an immediate unanalyzable private object of sensation, a > > > > discrete representation of what is perceived such as " red " that > may be > > > > seen atop a " vehicle. " So the term, unexplained or described, is > > > > misleading in that the term implies unification of discrete > perceptions, > > > > a distinctly egotist effort and one doomed to create illusions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The " ego " itself is an illusion....It is a descritive word that > mind had > > > come up with to define its illusory self. > > > > > > > > > > However, unitary perception is a " goal-less being " or a " form of > > > > silence " that encourages goal-less attention and, in being this and > > > > living this, there is the complete suspension of the formation > discrete > > > > perceptions and thoughts and complete silence. In this sense it > is akin > > > > to what is spoken about in this forum. But, because Feldman > Gonzalez is > > > > an activist in the Krishnamurti tradition, then the original > post about > > > > it here was to encourage transformative action in the world in > addition > > > > to dialogue. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mind imagines that there is some thing or somewhere beyond its own > > > borders......even if that were true ....it can never know that.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, Dr. Feldman Gonzalez makes it possible for this stated > > > > description to be misunderstood by seeking egos because of the > use of > > > > dualistic language > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All language is dualistic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and by pointing to the brain and mind as the medium > > > > and mechanism through which this is practiced. > > > > > > > > So, the term and these other ideas makes it possible for unitary > > > > perception to be easily misconstrued by egos seeking enlightenment > > > > > > > > > There are no egos seeking enlightenment..........There is only > > > consciousness......seeking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > mean that " they " must hold off during observation, be silent > internally > > > > so that the whole is perceived " as it is " > > > > > > > > > In order to perceive the " whole " .....the seer would have to be > separated > > > from it.....which means that it would no longer be whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not as " i " want or wish. This > > > > cannot be achieved by the mind or brain. > > > > > > > > > Do you believe that there exists a portion of the entity that exists > > > beyond the brain and mind? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The visual system and the mind > > > > simply adds what it notices in attention, one perception, then > another, > > > > then another, then another, and if an ego allows this to > continue there > > > > may be a sense that one is getting the whole by refusing to halt a > > > > continuous line of gradually accruing and integrating > perceptions and > > > > thoughts. But such an ego achievement yields only illusions. > > > > > > > > Dr. Feldman Gonzalez describes as much, realizes it, but has yet to > > > > refine the language and and description of the experience of > non-duality > > > > so that ego readers are directed to more carefully towards " their " > > > > dissipation. > > > > > > > > > The attempt to dissipate one's self only adds to its credibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Taken positively, unitary perception is meditation Krishnamurti > style > > > > (Krishnamurti: Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. > Throw away > > > > the content of consciousness. There has to be pure > consciousness, pure > > > > awareness, pure listening) that is couched in modern language with > > > > activist intentions in the background. Unitary perception is > founded in > > > > the work of Krishnamurti and is a neologism adopted by Dr. Feldman > > > > Gonzalez during a conversation with Krishnamurti (See > > > > www.unitaryperception.org/writings.htm " My Dialogues with > Krishnamurti > > > > 1975-1986, pp. 11, 8). > > > > > > > > It can be said that all ideas, concepts, labels, mental > constructions, > > > > etc. are unreal. Unitary perception is a mental construction and > and an > > > > idea. Therefore, unitary perception is unreal. > > > > > > > > As Toombaru simply says " there could be no such thing. " > > > > > > > > Logic has its uses in the world of duality, but it is simply a > tool or a > > > > toy for communication between egos in that world. > > > > > > > > Postings are written ideas. They too are unreal. So why post > > > > unrealities, is it not a waste of time? > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no choice involved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since there are so many egos still existing, the postings, unitary > > > > perception and other unrealities found here and there will find > welcome > > > > homes and will or will not be used in one way or another...... > > > > They are used for.....well, whatever ego allows the mind to do with > > > > them,.....to convince, to guide, to share, to help, to create > pain, to > > > > confuse, to live, to dream, to change, to grow, to chastise, to > > > > encourage, to wake up, to dissolve, to make money, to build > status, to > > > > be right, to be superior, to look down on others, to pity, to have > > > > compassion, to show off, to demonstrate, to learn, to.....ad > infinitum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They can do all that.......and more..............but it is the > infinite > > > chain of causation that " decides " ....not the ego. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > t. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Beliefs are unreal.... > > > > The ego is not real and so it cannot be dissipated. That is simple. > > Attempts to dissolve it always prove illusory and confounding..... > > > > There is no mind.... It is unreal. > > > > Choice is a construct, it is unreal..... > > > > Language is dualistic and when seen for what it is, it can be expressed > > more or less so or paradoxically......as is done in this forum. All > > language is unreal...... > > > > Words are illusions.........and point to illusions..... > > > > Such concepts as the infinite chain of causation are unreal.....an > > illusion.... > > > > Ego seeking enlightenment is illusory. No thing seeking no thing equals > > no thing. This is simple phenomena. > > > > The illusion of " choice " does not lessen its appearance as " real " to an > > " ego " as " phenomena. " From the viewpoint of ego as phenomena and its > > myriad of " subegos " in which the appearance of " self-conversation " and > > " thinking " is continuously appearing there is confusion for it as > > phenomena. Such confusion is the source of suffering for billions of > > minds and bodies. Seeing this, " Consciousness.....seeking " posts, > > speaks, helps, learns. (This paragraph refers to nothing but illusions) > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Posting here reaches that which is and that which is not and in doing so > > is a part of consciousness moving towards the release from illusion. > > > > When consciousness speaks it may do so at any point in the phenomena. > > > > There is no necessary point of departure or end, since there is neither. > > > > It simply is and simply does. > > > > " Consciousness.....seeking " uses the mind and body to do as it is and > > does even creating illusions that aid in the release from illusion. > > > > Toombaru is " consciousness...seeking. " > > > > Toombaru reads, composes, writes, posts, responds...(in silence?). > > > > There is no who, when, where, why, what or how. > > > > Toombaru is and does. > > > > So do all here and everywhere. " Consciousness " is " behind " all. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > If consciousness chooses to use the mind and body to create an > > affectionate embrace of Toombaru is this an illusion? > > > > If consciousness chooses to use language to express ideas that are > > necessarily and usually paradoxical illusions so as to aid in the > > release from illusion is this not an illusion aiding illusions? > > > > If consciousness chooses the personal pronouns " I " and " me " " you " to > > create the illusion of " person " does consciousness fall prey to its > > illusions and become confused? > > > > Are these and other illusion making activities of consciousness ordinary > > and effortless and done in clarity? > > > > Have not " Toombaru's " many illusions been useful? > > > > Consciousness uses minds and bodies to create illusions. These are the > > capabilities of mind and body. > > > > The " world " is illusory for that is what it is and it used by > > consciousness in joy. > > > > Lewis > > > > > There is no release from illusion. > > > toombaru ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Those words amount to a wonderfully useful illusion that can be handled in many ways. It could say " Striving for release is fruitless, so don't try to be, be. " Or it could say " There is no hope for obtaining enlightenment so don't bother to try because there is no such thing as enlightenment. Be! " Or it could say, " Nisagardattaism is hopeless, purposeless, existential twaddle. " Or it could say " Humans are caught in a quagmire of meaningless sensations, thoughts, feelings and desires while trying to get out by making meaning. " Or it could say There is no release from the bondage of sin in this body of death. " Or perhaps followers of Sri Ranjit Maharaj will heartily embrace " There is no release from illusion " by quoting him: QUESTION: If all is illusion, are you yourself an illusion? MAHARAJ: " Oh, yes! I am the greatest illusion! All that I say with full heart and so frankly is all false! But the false " I " can make you reach that point. The address of the person is not the goal. When you reach the house, thanks to the address you have been given, the address is true only until the moment you enter the house. As soon as you come in, the address vanishes. Words are nothing else but indications; they have no reality themselves. If " I " remains, I am also illusion. Don't remain as " I. " That is the highest understanding of philosophy. Saint Tukaram said: " I have seen my own death, and what I have seen there, the joy that was revealed, that I know. " First of all, you must die. " You " means illusion. Therefore, what I say is false, but true, however, because I speak of That. The address is false but when you reach the goal, it is Reality. In the same way, all the scriptures and the philosophical books are meant only to indicate that point, and when you reach it they become non-existent, empty. Words are false; only the meaning they convey is true. They are illusion, but they give a meaning. Therefore, all is illusion but to understand the illusion, illusion is needed. For example, to remove a thorn in your finger you use another thorn; then you throw both of them away. But if you keep the second thorn which was used to remove the first one, you'll surely be stuck again. To remove ignorance, knowledge is necessary, but finally both must dissolve into Reality. Your Self is without ignorance, without knowledge. Therefore, the Master and the seeker are illusion because they are " one. " If you keep the second thorn, which means knowledge, even if it is a golden thorn, you'll be stuck [by the second thorn]. The ego is the only illusion and ego is knowledge. It is said that to catch a thief you must become a thief. Then you can tell him: " Be aware, I am here and I know you are a thief so you won't be able to rob me. " But you cannot catch the thief because he has 4 eyes and you have only 2 eyes. At a glance the thief notices the valuables, and if you are not aware, he robs you. Illusion is like the thief, so you must be stronger than the thief. Your mind must accept that all is illusion, only illusion. Then you'll be the " greatest of the greatest. " Knowledge is a great thing but it must be only a remedy. When the fever goes off thanks to the medicine you take, you must stop taking it. Don't prolong the treatment or you will create more problems. Knowledge is necessary only to remove the disease of ignorance. The doctor will always prescribe a limited dosage! First of all, understand the " I " is illusion and what " I " says is illusion. The Master and what He says are also illusion because in Reality, " I " and " He " do not exist anymore. Go deep in yourself, so deep that you disappear. Otherwise see what will happen. A goat came in your house and to make it go out you open the door. The goat goes out but a camel comes in. The camel is just like the illusion. Thus, be out of illusion. (See http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva/ranjit.html) It could say, " Toombaru always says stuff like that. " Or it could say, Toombaru makes contradictory illusions or statements: " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:45 am Illusion There is no such " thing " as an illusion. A mirage is simply light waves reflected in such a way that the one who perceives them.....becomes confused about their reality..... There is no mirage.....only light wave mistakenly interpreted. Mind mistakes something for something else.........and yells " Illusion! " " Illusion " is only conceptual confusion. There is no such thing......as an illusion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Illusions as phenomena or as concept are useful. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 --~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Illusions as phenomena or as concept are useful. > > Lewis To whom? t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 --~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Illusions as phenomena or as concept are useful. > > Lewis To whom? t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 toombaru2004 wrote: > > --~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Illusions as phenomena or as concept are useful. > > > > Lewis > > > > > To whom? > > > > > t. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Magicians, artists, intellectuals, mystics, politicians, gurus, messiahs, kids, parents, devotees, philosophers, computer programmers, plastic surgeons, photographers, novelists, .....fill it in T ad infinitum. There is no mouse to catch. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > toombaru2004 wrote: > > > > > --~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Illusions as phenomena or as concept are useful. > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > > > > > To whom? > > > > > > > > > > t. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Magicians, artists, intellectuals, mystics, politicians, gurus, > messiahs, kids, parents, devotees, philosophers, computer programmers, > plastic surgeons, photographers, novelists, .....fill it in T ad > infinitum. There is no mouse to catch. > > > Lewis Lewis, Where did all of the people in your dream last night come from..........where did they go? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 toombaru2004 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > toombaru2004 wrote: > > > > > > > > --~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > Illusions as phenomena or as concept are useful. > > > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To whom? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > t. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Magicians, artists, intellectuals, mystics, politicians, gurus, > > messiahs, kids, parents, devotees, philosophers, computer programmers, > > plastic surgeons, photographers, novelists, .....fill it in T ad > > infinitum. There is no mouse to catch. > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > Lewis, > > > Where did all of the people in your dream last night come > from..........where did they go? > > > > toombaru ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The right hand is equally veined as the left. So it appears. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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