Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , tyrone martin <arunachala_1008> wrote: > > a agree wit that alot pete, i sortov feel the same thing, i mean what else can i do? Namaste, > tyrone you can send some money to Pete now tyrone; (hey your name rhymes with Lennon! ...and Stalone!) (not Lenine and Staline ok...) > > Pedsie2@a... wrote: > Snip > > " ...Well they give me all kinds of advice designed to enlighten me > When I tell them that I'm doing fine watching shadows on the wall > 'Don't you miss the big time boy you're no longer on the ball.' > > I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round > I really love to watch them roll > No longer riding on the merry-go-round > I just had to let it go. > > Ah, people asking questions lost in confusion > Well I tell them there's no problem, only solutions > Well they shake their heads and they look at me as if I've lost my mind > I tell them there's no hurry > I'm just sitting here doing time. > > I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round > I really love to watch them roll > No longer riding on the merry-go-round > I just had to let it go. " > > Watching the Wheels > by John Lennon > > What is the merry go round? You are. > The whole silly affair of acquiring, > improving, pretending progress, > adopting wise poses, calling yourself > by heroic names. It's a childish game. > Riding a wooden horsy, around and around. > > Pete > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 lol ok mr. eric, whatever you say. take care sir. tyrone Eric Paroissien <ericparoissien wrote: Nisargadatta , tyrone martin <arunachala_1008> wrote: > > a agree wit that alot pete, i sortov feel the same thing, i mean what else can i do? Namaste, > tyrone you can send some money to Pete now tyrone; (hey your name rhymes with Lennon! ...and Stalone!) (not Lenine and Staline ok...) > > Pedsie2@a... wrote: > Snip > > " ...Well they give me all kinds of advice designed to enlighten me > When I tell them that I'm doing fine watching shadows on the wall > 'Don't you miss the big time boy you're no longer on the ball.' > > I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round > I really love to watch them roll > No longer riding on the merry-go-round > I just had to let it go. > > Ah, people asking questions lost in confusion > Well I tell them there's no problem, only solutions > Well they shake their heads and they look at me as if I've lost my mind > I tell them there's no hurry > I'm just sitting here doing time. > > I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round > I really love to watch them roll > No longer riding on the merry-go-round > I just had to let it go. " > > Watching the Wheels > by John Lennon > > What is the merry go round? You are. > The whole silly affair of acquiring, > improving, pretending progress, > adopting wise poses, calling yourself > by heroic names. It's a childish game. > Riding a wooden horsy, around and around. > > Pete > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 In a message dated 12/25/04 10:25:49 PM, ericparoissien writes: > > a agree wit that alot pete, i sortov feel the same thing, I mean > what else can I do? Namaste, > > tyrone > > >you can send some money to Pete now tyrone; > (hey your name rhymes with Lennon! ...and Stalone!) > >(not Lenine and Staline ok...) > Sure, Send anything you don't need, even sarcasm, and Eric, Kip, Dan and I will do the following for ya: > " Je te frapperai sans colere > Et sans haine, comme un boucher, Comme Moise la rocher! Et je ferai de ta paupire " " I'll strike you without anger and without hatred, like a butcher Like Moses stroke the rock! And I will feed on your eyelid. * Until you bleed all your delusions, All your beliefs, your dreams, your pus. Until you are bleached clean, like a corpse. * The asterisk part is my addition to Charles B. poem. ) Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Eric Paroissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , tyrone martin > <arunachala_1008> wrote: > > > > a agree wit that alot pete, i sortov feel the same thing, i mean > what else can i do? Namaste, > > tyrone > > you can send some money to Pete now tyrone; > (hey your name rhymes with Lennon! ...and Stalone!) > (not Lenine and Staline ok...) Send some money to me too. Ty. Eric you can chip in. And Pete can too. > > Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > Snip > > > > " ...Well they give me all kinds of advice designed to enlighten me > > When I tell them that I'm doing fine watching shadows on the wall > > 'Don't you miss the big time boy you're no longer on the ball.' > > > > I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round > > I really love to watch them roll > > No longer riding on the merry-go-round > > I just had to let it go. > > > > Ah, people asking questions lost in confusion > > Well I tell them there's no problem, only solutions > > Well they shake their heads and they look at me as if I've lost my > mind > > I tell them there's no hurry > > I'm just sitting here doing time. > > > > I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round > > I really love to watch them roll > > No longer riding on the merry-go-round > > I just had to let it go. " > > > > Watching the Wheels > > by John Lennon > > > > What is the merry go round? You are. > > The whole silly affair of acquiring, > > improving, pretending progress, > > adopting wise poses, calling yourself > > by heroic names. It's a childish game. > > Riding a wooden horsy, around and around. > > > > Pete > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > Eric Paroissien wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , tyrone martin > > <arunachala_1008> wrote: > > > > > > a agree wit that alot pete, i sortov feel the same thing, i mean > > what else can i do? Namaste, > > > tyrone > > > > you can send some money to Pete now tyrone; > > (hey your name rhymes with Lennon! ...and Stalone!) > > (not Lenine and Staline ok...) > > > Send some money to me too. Ty. Eric you can chip in. And Pete can too. Pete is broke, everything went into this correspondance crash course for enlightenement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Eric Paroissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> > wrote: > > > > > > Eric Paroissien wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , tyrone martin > > > <arunachala_1008> wrote: > > > > > > > > a agree wit that alot pete, i sortov feel the same thing, i > mean > > > what else can i do? Namaste, > > > > tyrone > > > > > > you can send some money to Pete now tyrone; > > > (hey your name rhymes with Lennon! ...and Stalone!) > > > (not Lenine and Staline ok...) > > > > > > Send some money to me too. Ty. Eric you can chip in. And Pete can > too. > > Pete is broke, everything went into this correspondance crash course > for enlightenement. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ But is not skullduggery costless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Eric Paroissien wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> > wrote: > > > > > > Eric Paroissien wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Paroissien wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , tyrone martin > > > > > <arunachala_1008> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > a agree wit that alot pete, i sortov feel the same > thing, i > > > mean > > > > > what else can i do? Namaste, > > > > > > tyrone > > > > > > > > > > you can send some money to Pete now tyrone; > > > > > (hey your name rhymes with Lennon! ...and Stalone!) > > > > > (not Lenine and Staline ok...) > > > > > > > > > > > > Send some money to me too. Ty. Eric you can chip in. And Pete > can > > > too. > > > > > > Pete is broke, everything went into this correspondance crash > course > > > for enlightenement. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > But is not skullduggery costless? > > Odysseus has the answer to all the technical questions. :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Ho Odysseus! Help is requested! Man the sails man! Ithaca calls! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > Eric Paroissien wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Eric Paroissien wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Paroissien wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , tyrone martin > > > > > > <arunachala_1008> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a agree wit that alot pete, i sortov feel the same > > thing, i > > > > mean > > > > > > what else can i do? Namaste, > > > > > > > tyrone > > > > > > > > > > > > you can send some money to Pete now tyrone; > > > > > > (hey your name rhymes with Lennon! ...and Stalone!) > > > > > > (not Lenine and Staline ok...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send some money to me too. Ty. Eric you can chip in. And Pete > > can > > > > too. > > > > > > > > Pete is broke, everything went into this correspondance crash > > course > > > > for enlightenement. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > But is not skullduggery costless? > > > > Odysseus has the answer to all the technical questions. :-) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Hi Ho Odysseus! Help is requested! Man the sails man! Ithaca calls! ****************************** Hi, I'm back for at least an hour so if you want to talk. It is time!!! Odysseus, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 12/25/04 10:25:49 PM, ericparoissien@g... writes: > > > > > a agree wit that alot pete, i sortov feel the same thing, I mean > > what else can I do? Namaste, > > > tyrone > > > > >you can send some money to Pete now tyrone; > > (hey your name rhymes with Lennon! ...and Stalone!) > > >(not Lenine and Staline ok...) > > > Sure, > Send anything you don't need, even sarcasm, and > Eric, Kip, Dan and I will do the following for ya: > > > " Je te frapperai sans colere > > Et sans haine, comme un boucher, > Comme Moise la rocher! > Et je ferai de ta paupire " > > " I'll strike you without anger > and without hatred, like a butcher > Like Moses stroke the rock! > And I will feed on your eyelid. > > * Until you bleed all your delusions, > All your beliefs, your dreams, your pus. > Until you are bleached clean, like a corpse. > > * The asterisk part is my addition to Charles > B. poem. ) > > Pete > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 > > Odysseus has the answer to all the technical questions. :-) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Hi Ho Odysseus! Help is requested! Man the sails man! Ithaca calls! ************************ Odysseus: Eric if you ask me what is the color of the moon, I won't answer you because...?!? because. But if my dear one Alexander the great ask me I will give him or her the moon! Odysseus, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > > Odysseus has the answer to all the technical questions. :-) > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Hi Ho Odysseus! Help is requested! Man the sails man! Ithaca calls! > > ************************ > > Odysseus: > > Eric if you ask me what is the color of the moon, I won't answer you > because...?!? because. But if my dear one Alexander the great ask me > I will give him or her the moon! > > > Odysseus, ********************** Dear Alexander, You have a heart. So, usely man don't have a heart, so I wonder are you a woman? Don't answer. It doesn't matter. If you are a man, then, maybe you have made the two...one? :0) in this case this is great!!! Few people take other names in this web site. Hide behind other names etc. I'm not saying that you have done this. Anyway it is Ok. Everything is just fine. You have a beautiful heart!!! Odysseus, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2004 Report Share Posted December 26, 2004 In a message dated 12/26/04 10:41:20 AM, ilikezen2004 writes: > >Hey Pete, My master YWH wrote something similar in the bible. And > you hate the bible and Jesus? It's is funny no? :0) > > You like the fruit but you don't like the tree! It is written there > >too! > > >Odysseus, > Dear Albertico, I was a Xtian once, and wrote poems to Jesus. I hate no one. Neither santa, nor jesus. I just point to games. When I see a game of self-glorification being played, I call it by its name. Few like being called on their games, they prefer being flattered, and called great, and beloved. Maybe, since you are such good Xtian, you will enjoy this poem I wrote before you were born, and knew Jesus ever existed. A Jesus Dios omnipotente, maestro divino Devuelve la vista a este peregrino No la vista externa que adora la luz Mas esa, la interna, que adora tu cruz Que mis pobres ojos solo ven horror Entre los abrojos que nos dan dolor Mi espíritu ciego, débil, enfermizo No ve ya la ruta que va al paraíso Que sentir dolor sin buscar consuelo Es haber ganado, como Tu, el Cielo. Pete It's interesting to note how suffering is the key note both in Christianity and Buddhism. With the difference than in Buddhism it's viewed as an enemy to be understood and conquered, and in Christ's teachings, it is something to be accepted and embraced. " Pick up your cross, and follow me, " said Christ. With this he indicated that suffering is not the enemy, but the way itself. This has been conveniently ignored by the average Christian. And even those who understood, have mis-interpreted the way, by seeking austerities, pain, and discomfort, and considering the body an enemy to be deprived and punished. Of course, that is not the way. Suffering when sought breeds pride, the suffering which is the way is the one that comes unsought, the one that is not of our choosing. That one is the hardest to bear, and the one that bears fruit. That one, is not flashy, not heroic. To accept rebuke without defense or attack, to turn the other cheek, to recognize a teacher in those who criticize us, and a danger in those who flatter, to love thy enemies, that's the Christian way. Can you do that? Your friend in Christ, Not Much ) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Pedsie2 wrote: > > In a message dated 12/26/04 10:41:20 AM, ilikezen2004 writes: > > > > >Hey Pete, My master YWH wrote something similar in the bible. And > > you hate the bible and Jesus? It's is funny no? :0) > > > > You like the fruit but you don't like the tree! It is written there > > >too! > > > > >Odysseus, > > > Dear Albertico, > > I was a Xtian once, and wrote poems to Jesus. I hate > no one. Neither santa, nor jesus. I just point to games. > When I see a game of self-glorification being played, > I call it by its name. Few like being called on their > games, they prefer being flattered, and called great, and beloved. > Maybe, since you are such good Xtian, you will enjoy > this poem I wrote before you were born, and knew Jesus > ever existed. > > A Jesus > > Dios omnipotente, maestro divino > Devuelve la vista a este peregrino > No la vista externa que adora la luz > Mas esa, la interna, que adora tu cruz > Que mis pobres ojos solo ven horror > Entre los abrojos que nos dan dolor > Mi espíritu ciego, débil, enfermizo > No ve ya la ruta que va al paraíso > Que sentir dolor sin buscar consuelo > Es haber ganado, como Tu, el Cielo. > > Pete > > It's interesting to note how suffering is the key note both in Christianity > and Buddhism. With the difference than in Buddhism it's viewed as an > enemy to be understood and conquered, and in Christ's teachings, it is > something to be accepted and embraced. " Pick up your cross, and follow > me, " said Christ. With this he indicated that suffering is not the enemy, > but the way itself. This has been conveniently ignored by the average > Christian. And even those who understood, have mis-interpreted the > way, by seeking austerities, pain, and discomfort, and considering the > body an enemy to be deprived and punished. Of course, that is not the > way. Suffering when sought breeds pride, the suffering which is the > way is the one that comes unsought, the one that is not of our choosing. > That one is the hardest to bear, and the one that bears fruit. That one, > is not flashy, not heroic. To accept rebuke without defense or attack, > to turn the other cheek, to recognize a teacher in those who criticize us, > and a danger in those who flatter, to love thy enemies, that's the > Christian way. Can you do that? > > Your friend in Christ, > Not Much ) Dear Pete, You are correct. It is not by effort of any sort that brings about the fruition you speak of and this knowledge has been part of the Christian mystical tradition for more that 1800 years. The " purgation by dark fire " is not self-inflicted penance and austerities, nor is it by intellection or meditation, nor emotional pouring and contrivance upon imaginary concepts, gurus, messiahs as persons, and the like. These are the human efforts to achieve a misunderstood goal: salvation, a place in heaven, resurrection and so on. " But neither from these imperfections nor from those others can the soul be perfectly purified until God brings it into the passive purgation of that dark night whereof we shall speak presently. It befits the soul, however, to contrive to labour, in so far as it can, on its own account, to the end that it may purge and perfect itself, and thus may merit being taken by God into that Divine care wherein it becomes healed of all things that it was unable of itself to cure. Because, however greatly the soul itself labours, it cannot actively purify itself so as to be in the least degree prepared for the Divine union of perfection of love, if God takes not its hand and purges it not in that dark fire, in the way and manner that we have to describe.... " (Book 1 Chapter III, 3; Dark Night of the Soul by Saint John of the Cross, Third Revised Edition, Translated and edited by E. Allison Peers). There is suffering on the way as " dying to self " occurs while still alive and this " dying to self " is not pleasant until there is complete surrender that paradoxically is not achieved by human effort. To share this view more fully so that the other members of the forum unfamiliar with mystical theology may see and experience as you do, Chapters V through IX of the Dark Night of the Soul are pasted below. The chapters will help in some ways to clear away popular misunderstandings of the commonly dropped phrase " dark night of the soul, " that usually refers to someone having a hard time (aridness, depression) in spiritual practice, which is not meaning intended or experienced by St. John of the Cross and other Discalced Carmelties. It is recommended to read the book in its entirety for the very detailed and intimate look at the movements and difficulties in interior life. The text is drawn personal experience of St. John of the Cross and has been a rich resource, though somewhat unknown and under utilized resource for nearly 500 years. The book can be downloaded and read from this link: http://www.ccel.org/j/john_of_the_cross/dark_night/dark_night.html If this unsatisfactory, please provide what is. Lewis ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Dark Night of the Soul by Saint John of the Cross, Third Revised Edition, Translated and edited by E. Allison Peers. CHAPTER V Sets down the first line and begins to explain how this dark contemplation is not only night for the soul but is also grief and torment. THIS dark night is an inflowing of God into the soul, which purges it from its ignorances and imperfections, habitual natural and spiritual, and which is called by contemplatives infused contemplation, or mystical theology. Herein God secretly teaches the soul and instructs it in perfection of love without its doing anything, or understanding of what manner is this infused contemplation. Inasmuch as it is the loving wisdom of God, God produces striking effects in the soul for, by purging and illumining it, He prepares it for the union of love with God. Wherefore the same loving wisdom that purges the blessed spirits and enlightens them is that which here purges the soul and illumines it. 2. But the question arises: Why is the Divine light (which as we say, illumines and purges the soul from its ignorances) here called by the soul a dark night? To this the answer is that for two reasons this Divine wisdom is not only night and darkness for the soul, but is likewise affliction and torment. The first is because of the height of Divine Wisdom, which transcends the talent of the soul, and in this way is darkness to it; the second, because of its vileness and impurity, in which respect it is painful and afflictive to it, and is also dark. 3. In order to prove the first point, we must here assume a certain doctrine of the philosopher, which says that, the clearer and more manifest are Divine things in themselves the darker and more hidden are they to the soul naturally; just as, the clearer is the light, the more it blinds and darkens the pupil of the owl, and, the more directly we look at the sun, the greater is the darkness which it causes in our visual faculty, overcoming and overwhelming it through its own weakness. In the same way, when this Divine light of contemplation assails the soul which is not yet wholly enlightened, it causes spiritual darkness in it; for not only does it overcome it, but likewise it overwhelms it and darkens the act of its natural intelligence. For this reason Saint Dionysius and other mystical theologians call this infused contemplation a ray of darkness—that is to say, for the soul that is not enlightened and purged—for the natural strength of the intellect is transcended and overwhelmed by its great supernatural light. Wherefore David likewise said: That near to God and round about Him are darkness and cloud;[108] not that this is so in fact, but that it is so to our weak understanding, which is blinded and darkened by so vast a light, to which it cannot attain.[109] For this cause the same David then explained himself, saying: 'Through the great splendour of His presence passed clouds'[110]—that is, between God and our understanding. And it is for this cause that, when God sends it out from Himself to the soul that is not yet transformed, this illumining ray of His secret wisdom causes thick darkness in the understanding. 4. And it is clear that this dark contemplation is in these its beginnings painful likewise to the soul; for, as this Divine infused contemplation has many excellences that are extremely good, and the soul that receives them, not being purged, has many miseries that are likewise extremely bad, hence it follows that, as two contraries cannot coexist in one subject—the soul—it must of necessity have pain and suffering, since it is the subject wherein these two contraries war against each other, working the one against the other, by reason of the purgation of the imperfections of the soul which comes to pass through this contemplation. This we shall prove inductively in the manner following. 5. In the first place, because the light and wisdom of this contemplation is most bright and pure, and the soul which it assails is dark and impure, it follows that the soul suffers great pain when it receives it in itself, just as, when the eyes are dimmed by humours, and become impure and weak, the assault made upon them by a bright light causes them pain. And when the soul suffers the direct assault of this Divine light, its pain, which results from its impurity, is immense; because, when this pure light assails the soul, in order to expel its impurity, the soul feels itself to be so impure and miserable that it believes God to be against it, and thinks that it has set itself up against God. This causes it sore grief and pain, because it now believes that God has cast it away: this was one of the greatest trials which Job felt when God sent him this experience, and he said: 'Why hast Thou set me contrary to Thee, so that I am grievous and burdensome to myself?'[111] For, by means of this pure light, the soul now sees its impurity clearly (although darkly), and knows clearly that it is unworthy of God or of any creature. And what gives it most pain is that it thinks that it will never be worthy and that its good things are all over for it. This is caused by the profound immersion of its spirit in the knowledge and realization of its evils and miseries; for this Divine and dark light now reveals them all to the eye, that it may see clearly how in its own strength it can never have aught else. In this sense we may understand that passage from David, which says: 'For iniquity Thou hast corrected man and hast made his soul to be undone and consumed: he wastes away as the spider.'[112] 6. The second way in which the soul suffers pain is by reason of its weakness, natural, moral and spiritual; for, when this Divine contemplation assails the soul with a certain force, in order to strengthen it and subdue it, it suffers such pain in its weakness that it nearly swoons away. This is especially so at certain times when it is assailed with somewhat greater force; for sense and spirit, as if beneath some immense and dark load, are in such great pain and agony that the soul would find advantage and relief in death. This had been experienced by the prophet Job, when he said: 'I desire not that He should have intercourse with me in great strength, lest He oppress me with the weight of His greatness.'[113] 7. Beneath the power of this oppression and weight the soul feels itself so far from being favoured that it thinks, and correctly so, that even that wherein it was wont to find some help has vanished with everything else, and that there is none who has pity upon it. To this effect Job says likewise: 'Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, at least ye my friends, because the hand of the Lord has touched me.'[114] A thing of great wonder and pity is it that the soul's weakness and impurity should now be so great that, though the hand of God is of itself so light and gentle, the soul should now feel it to be so heavy and so contrary,[115] though it neither weighs it down nor rests upon it, but only touches it, and that mercifully, since He does this in order to grant the soul favours and not to chastise it. CHAPTER VI Of other kinds of pain that the soul suffers in this night. THE third kind of suffering and pain that the soul endures in this state results from the fact that two other extremes meet here in one, namely, the Divine and the human. The Divine is this purgative contemplation, and the human is the subject—that is, the soul. The Divine assails the soul in order to renew it and thus to make it Divine; and, stripping it of the habitual affections and attachments of the old man, to which it is very closely united, knit together and conformed, destroys and consumes its spiritual substance, and absorbs it in deep and profound darkness. As a result of this, the soul feels itself to be perishing and melting away, in the presence and sight of its miseries, in a cruel spiritual death, even as if it had been swallowed by a beast and felt itself being devoured in the darkness of its belly, suffering such anguish as was endured by Jonas in the belly of that beast of the sea.[116] For in this sepulchre of dark death it must needs abide until the spiritual resurrection which it hopes for. 2. A description of this suffering and pain, although in truth it transcends all description, is given by David, when he says: 'The lamentations of death compassed me about; the pains of hell surrounded me; I cried in my tribulation.'[117] But what the sorrowful soul feels most in this condition is its clear perception, as it thinks, that God has abandoned it, and, in His abhorrence of it, has flung it into darkness; it is a grave and piteous grief for it to believe that God has forsaken it. It is this that David also felt so much in a like case, saying: 'After the manner wherein the wounded are dead in the sepulchres,' being now cast off by Thy hand, so that Thou rememberest them no more, even so have they set me in the deepest and lowest lake, in the dark places and in the shadow of death, and Thy fury is confirmed upon me and all Thy waves Thou hast brought in upon me.'[118] For indeed, when this purgative contemplation is most severe, the soul feels very keenly the shadow of death and the lamentations of death and the pains of hell, which consist in its feeling itself to be without God, and chastised and cast out, and unworthy of Him; and it feels that He is wroth with it. All this is felt by the soul in this condition—yea, and more, for it believes that it is so with it for ever. 3. It feels, too, that all creatures have forsaken it, and that it is contemned by them, particularly by its friends. Wherefore David presently continues, saying: 'Thou hast put far from me my friends and acquaintances; they have counted me an abomination.'[119] To all this will Jonas testify, as one who likewise experienced it in the belly of the beast, both bodily and spiritually. 'Thou hast cast me forth (he says) into the deep, into the heart of the sea, and the flood hath compassed me; all its billows and waves have passed over me. And I said, " I am cast away out of the sight of Thine eyes, but I shall once again see Thy holy temple " (which he says, because God purifies the soul in this state that it may see His temple); the waters compassed me, even to the soul, the deep hath closed me round about, the ocean hath covered my head, I went down to the lowest parts of the mountains; the bars of the earth have shut me up for ever.'[120] By these bars are here understood, in this sense, imperfections of the soul, which have impeded it from enjoying this delectable contemplation. 4. The fourth kind of pain is caused in the soul by another excellence of this dark contemplation, which is its majesty and greatness, from which arises in the soul a consciousness of the other extreme which is in itself—namely, that of the deepest poverty and wretchedness: this is one of the chiefest pains that it suffers in this purgation. For it feels within itself a profound emptiness and impoverishment of three kinds of good, which are ordained for the pleasure of the soul which are the temporal, the natural and the spiritual; and finds itself set in the midst of the evils contrary to these, namely, miseries of imperfection, aridity and emptiness of the apprehensions of the faculties and abandonment of the spirit in darkness. Inasmuch as God here purges the soul according to the substance of its sense and spirit, and according to the interior and exterior faculties, the soul must needs be in all its parts reduced to a state of emptiness, poverty and abandonment and must be left dry and empty and in darkness. For the sensual part is purified in aridity, the faculties are purified in the emptiness of their perceptions and the spirit is purified in thick darkness. 5. All this God brings to pass by means of this dark contemplation; wherein the soul not only suffers this emptiness and the suspension of these natural supports and perceptions, which is a most afflictive suffering (as if a man were suspended or held in the air so that he could not breathe), but likewise He is purging the soul, annihilating it, emptying it or consuming in it (even as fire consumes the mouldiness and the rust of metal) all the affections and imperfect habits which it has contracted in its whole life. Since these are deeply rooted in the substance of the soul, it is wont to suffer great undoings and inward torment, besides the said poverty and emptiness, natural and spiritual, so that there may here be fulfilled that passage from Ezechiel which says: 'Heap together the bones and I will burn them in the fire; the flesh shall be consumed and the whole composition shall be burned and the bones shall be destroyed.'[121] Herein is understood the pain which is suffered in the emptiness and poverty of the substance of the soul both in sense and in spirit. And concerning this he then says: 'Set it also empty upon the coals, that its metal may become hot and molten, and its uncleanness may be destroyed within it, and its rust may be consumed.'[122] Herein is described the grave suffering which the soul here endures in the purgation of the fire of this contemplation, for the Prophet says here that, in order for the rust of the affections which are within the soul to be purified and destroyed, it is needful that, in a certain manner, the soul itself should be annihilated and destroyed, since these passions and imperfections have become natural to it. 6. Wherefore, because the soul is purified in this furnace like gold in a crucible, as says the Wise Man,[123] it is conscious of this complete undoing of itself in its very substance, together with the direst poverty, wherein it is, as it were, nearing its end, as may be seen by that which David says of himself in this respect, in these words: 'Save me, Lord (he cries to God), for the waters have come in even unto my soul; I am made fast in the mire of the deep and there is no place where I can stand; I am come into the depth of the sea and a tempest hath overwhelmed me; I have laboured crying, my throat has become hoarse, mine eyes have failed whilst I hope in my God.'[124] Here God greatly humbles the soul in order that He may afterwards greatly exalt it; and if He ordained not that, when these feelings arise within the soul, they should speedily be stilled, it would die in a very short space; but there are only occasional periods when it is conscious of their greatest intensity. At times, however, they are so keen that the soul seems to be seeing hell and perdition opened. Of such are they that in truth go down alive into hell, being purged here on earth in the same manner as there, since this purgation is that which would have to be accomplished there. And thus the soul that passes through this either enters not that place[125] at all, or tarries there but for a very short time; for one hour of purgation here is more profitable than are many there. CHAPTER VII Continues the same matter and considers other afflictions end constraints of the will. THE afflictions and constraints of the will are now very great likewise, and of such a kind that they sometimes transpierce the soul with a sudden remembrance of the evils in the midst of which it finds itself, and with the uncertainty of finding a remedy for them. And to this is added the remembrance of times of prosperity now past; for as a rule souls that enter this night have had many consolations from God, and have rendered Him many services, and it causes them the greater grief to see that they are far removed from that happiness and unable to enter into it. This was also described by Job, who had had experience of it, in these words: 'I, who was wont to be wealthy and rich, am suddenly undone and broken to pieces; He hath taken me by my neck; He hath broken me and set me up for His mark to wound me; He hath compassed me round about with His lances; He hath wounded all my loins; He hath not spared; He hath poured out my bowels on the earth; He hath broken me with wound upon wound; He hath assailed me as a strong giant; I have sewed sackcloth upon my skin and have covered my flesh with ashes; my face is become swollen with weeping and mine eyes are blinded.'[126] 2. So many and so grievous are the afflictions of this night, and so many passages of Scripture are there which could be cited to this purpose, that time and strength would fail us to write of them, for all that can be said thereof is certainly less than the truth. From the passages already quoted some idea may be gained of them. And, that we may bring the exposition of this line to a close and explain more fully what is worked in the soul by this night, I shall tell what Jeremias felt about it, which, since there is so much of it, he describes and bewails in many words after this manner: 'I am the man that see my poverty in the rod of His indignation; He hath threatened me and brought me into darkness and not into light. So far hath He turned against me and hath converted His hand upon me all the day! My skin and my flesh hath He made old; He hath broken my bones; He hath made a fence around me and compassed me with gall and trial; He hath set me in dark places, as those that are dead for ever. He hath made a fence around me and against me, that I may not go out; He hath made my captivity heavy. Yea, and when I have cried and have entreated, He hath shut out my prayer. He hath enclosed my paths and ways out with square stones; He hath thwarted my steps. He hath set ambushes for me; He hath become to me a lion in a secret place. He hath turned aside my steps and broken me in pieces, He hath made me desolate; He hath bent His bow and set me as a mark for His arrow. He hath shot into my reins the daughters of His quiver. I have become a derision to all the people, and laughter and scorn for them all the day. He hath filled me with bitterness and hath made me drunken with wormwood. He hath broken my teeth by number; He hath fed me with ashes. My soul is cast out from peace; I have forgotten good things. And I said: " Mine end is frustrated and cut short, together with my desire and my hope from the Lord. Remember my poverty and my excess, the wormwood and the gall. I shall be mindful with remembrance and my soul shall be undone within me in pains. " '[127] 3. All these complaints Jeremias makes about these pains and trials, and by means of them he most vividly depicts the sufferings of the soul in this spiritual night and purgation. Wherefore the soul that God sets in this tempestuous and horrible night is deserving of great compassion. For, although it experiences much happiness by reason of the great blessings that must arise on this account within it, when, as Job says, God raises up profound blessings in the soul out of darkness, and brings up to light the shadow of death,[128] so that, as David says, His light comes to be as was His darkness;[129] yet notwithstanding, by reason of the dreadful pain which the soul is suffering, and of the great uncertainty which it has concerning the remedy for it, since it believes, as this prophet says here, that its evil will never end, and it thinks, as David says likewise, that God set it in dark places like those that are dead,[130] and for this reason brought its spirit within it into anguish and troubled its heart,[131] it suffers great pain and grief, since there is added to all this (because of the solitude and abandonment caused in it by this dark night) the fact that it finds no consolation or support in any instruction nor in a spiritual master. For, although in many ways its director may show it good reason for being comforted because of the blessings which are contained in these afflictions, it cannot believe him. For it is so greatly absorbed and immersed in the realization of those evils wherein it sees its own miseries so clearly, that it thinks that, as its director observes not that which it sees and feels, he is speaking in this manner because he understands it not; and so, instead of comfort, it rather receives fresh affliction, since it believes that its director's advice contains no remedy for its troubles. And, in truth, this is so; for, until the Lord shall have completely purged it after the manner that He wills, no means or remedy is of any service or profit for the relief of its affliction; the more so because the soul is as powerless in this case as one who has been imprisoned in a dark dungeon, and is bound hand and foot, and can neither move nor see, nor feel any favour whether from above or from below, until the spirit is humbled, softened and purified, and grows so keen and delicate and pure that it can become one with the Spirit of God, according to the degree of union of love which His mercy is pleased to grant it; in proportion to this the purgation is of greater or less severity and of greater or less duration. 4. But, if it is to be really effectual, it will last for some years, however severe it be; since the purgative process allows intervals of relief wherein, by the dispensation of God, this dark contemplation ceases to assail the soul in the form and manner of purgation, and assails it after an illuminative and a loving manner, wherein the soul, like one that has gone forth from this dungeon and imprisonment, and is brought into the recreation of spaciousness and liberty, feels and experiences great sweetness of peace and loving friendship with God, together with a ready abundance of spiritual communication. This is to the soul a sign of the health which is being wrought within it by the said purgation and a foretaste of the abundance for which it hopes. Occasionally this is so great that the soul believes its trials to be at last over. For spiritual things in the soul, when they are most purely spiritual, have this characteristic that, if trials come to it, the soul believes that it will never escape from them, and that all its blessings are now over, as has been seen in the passages quoted; and, if spiritual blessings come, the soul believes in the same way that its troubles are now over, and that blessings will never fail it. This was so with David, when he found himself in the midst of them, as he confesses in these words: 'I said in my abundance: " I shall never be moved. " '[132] 5. This happens because the actual possession by the spirit of one of two contrary things itself makes impossible the actual possession and realization of the other contrary thing; this is not so, however, in the sensual part of the soul, because its apprehension is weak. But, as the spirit is not yet completely purged and cleansed from the affections that it has contracted from its lower part, while changing not in so far as it is spirit, it can be moved to further afflictions in so far as these affections sway it. In this way, as we see, David was afterwards moved, and experienced many ills and afflictions, although in the time of his abundance he had thought and said that he would never be moved. Just so is it with the soul in this condition, when it sees itself moved by that abundance of spiritual blessings, and, being unable to see the root of the imperfection and impurity which still remain within it, thinks that its trials are over. 6. This thought, however, comes to the soul but seldom, for, until spiritual purification is complete and perfected, the sweet communication is very rarely so abundant as to conceal from the soul the root which remains hidden, in such a way that the soul can cease to feel that there is something that it lacks within itself or that it has still to do. Thus it cannot completely enjoy that relief, but feels as if one of its enemies were within it, and although this enemy is, as it were, hushed and asleep, it fears that he will come to life again and attack it.[133] And this is what indeed happens, for, when the soul is most secure and least alert, it is dragged down and immersed again in another and a worse degree of affliction which is severer and darker and more grievous than that which is past; and this new affliction will continue for a further period of time, perhaps longer than the first. And the soul once more comes to believe that all its blessings are over for ever. Although it had thought during its first trial that there were no more afflictions which it could suffer, and yet, after the trial was over, it enjoyed great blessings, this experience is not sufficient to take away its belief, during this second degree of trial, that all is now over for it and that it will never again be happy as in the past. For, as I say, this belief, of which the soul is so sure, is caused in it by the actual apprehension of the spirit, which annihilates within it all that is contrary to it. 7. This is the reason why those who lie in purgatory suffer great misgivings as to whether they will ever go forth from it and whether their pains will ever be over. For, although they have the habit of the three theological virtues—faith, hope and charity—the present realization which they have of their afflictions and of their deprivation of God allows them not to enjoy the present blessing and consolation of these virtues. For, although they are able to realize that they have a great love for God, this is no consolation to them, since they cannot think that God loves them or that they are worthy that He should do so; rather, as they see that they are deprived of Him, and left in their own miseries, they think that there is that in themselves which provides a very good reason why they should with perfect justice be abhorred and cast out by God for ever.[134] And thus although the soul in this purgation is conscious that it has a great love for God and would give a thousand lives for Him (which is the truth, for in these trials such souls love their God very earnestly), yet this is no relief to it, but rather brings it greater affliction. For it loves Him so much that it cares about naught beside; when, therefore, it sees itself to be so wretched that it cannot believe that God loves it, nor that there is or will ever be reason why He should do so, but rather that there is reason why it should be abhorred, not only by Him, but by all creatures for ever, it is grieved to see in itself reasons for deserving to be cast out by Him for Whom it has such great love and desire. CHAPTER VIII Of other pains which afflict the soul in this state. BUT there is another thing here that afflicts and distresses the soul greatly, which is that, as this dark night has hindered its faculties and affections in this way, it is unable to raise its affection or its mind to God, neither can it pray to Him, thinking, as Jeremias thought concerning himself, that God has set a cloud before it through which its prayer cannot pass.[135] For it is this that is meant by that which is said in the passage referred to, namely: 'He hath shut and enclosed my paths with square stones.'[136] And if it sometimes prays it does so with such lack of strength and of sweetness that it thinks that God neither hears it nor pays heed to it, as this Prophet likewise declares in the same passage, saying: 'When I cry and entreat, He hath shut out my prayer.'[137] In truth this is no time for the soul to speak with God; it should rather put its mouth in the dust, as Jeremias says, so that perchance there may come to it some present hope,[138] and it may endure its purgation with patience. It is God Who is passively working here in the soul; wherefore the soul can do nothing. Hence it can neither pray nor pay attention when it is present at the Divine offices,[139] much less can it attend to other things and affairs which are temporal. Not only so, but it has likewise such distractions and times of such profound forgetfulness of the memory that frequent periods pass by without its knowing what it has been doing or thinking, or what it is that it is doing or is going to do, neither can it pay attention, although it desire to do so, to anything that occupies it. 2. Inasmuch as not only is the understanding here purged of its light, and the will of its affections, but the memory is also purged of meditation and knowledge, it is well that it be likewise annihilated with respect to all these things, so that that which David says of himself in this purgation may by fulfilled, namely: 'I was annihilated and I knew not.'[140] This unknowing refers to these follies and forgetfulnesses of the memory, which distractions and forgetfulnesses are caused by the interior recollection wherein this contemplation absorbs the soul. For, in order that the soul may be divinely prepared and tempered with its faculties for the Divine union of love, it would be well for it to be first of all absorbed, with all its faculties, in this Divine and dark spiritual light of contemplation, and thus to be withdrawn from all the affections and apprehensions of the creatures, which condition ordinarily continues in proportion to its intensity. And thus, the simpler and the purer is this Divine light in its assault upon the soul, the more does it darken it, void it and annihilate it according to its particular apprehensions and affections, with regard both to things above and to things below; and similarly, the less simple and pure is it in this assault, the less deprivation it causes it and the less dark is it. Now this is a thing that seems incredible, to say that, the brighter and purer is supernatural and Divine light, the more it darkens the soul, and that, the less bright and pure is it, the less dark it is to the soul. Yet this may readily be understood if we consider what has been proved above by the dictum of the philosopher—namely, that the brighter and the more manifest in themselves are supernatural things the darker are they to our understanding. 3. And, to the end that this may be understood the more clearly, we shall here set down a similitude referring to common and natural light. We observe that a ray of sunlight which enters through the window is the less clearly visible according as it is the purer and freer from specks, and the more of such specks and motes there are in the air, the brighter is the light to the eye. The reason is that it is not the light itself that is seen; the light is but the means whereby the other things that it strikes are seen, and then it is also seen itself, through its reflection in them; were it not for this, neither it nor they would have been seen. Thus if the ray of sunlight entered through the window of one room and passed out through another on the other side, traversing the room, and if it met nothing on the way, or if there were no specks in the air for it to strike, the room would have no more light than before, neither would the ray of light be visible. In fact, if we consider it carefully, there is more darkness where the ray is, since it absorbs and obscures any other light, and yet it is itself invisible, because, as we have said, there are no visible objects which it can strike. 4. Now this is precisely what this Divine ray of contemplation does in the soul. Assailing it with its Divine light, it transcends the natural power of the soul, and herein it darkens it and deprives it of all natural affections and apprehensions which it apprehended aforetime by means of natural light; and thus it leaves it not only dark, but likewise empty, according to its faculties and desires, both spiritual and natural. And, by thus leaving it empty and in darkness, it purges and illumines it with Divine spiritual light, although the soul thinks not that it has this light, but believes itself to be in darkness, even as we have said of the ray of light, which although it be in the midst of the room, yet, if it be pure and meet nothing on its path, is not visible. With regard, however, to this spiritual light by which the soul is assailed, when it has something to strike—that is, when something spiritual presents itself to be understood, however small a speck it be and whether of perfection or imperfection, or whether it be a judgment of the falsehood or the truth of a thing—it then sees and understands much more clearly than before it was in these dark places. And exactly in the same way it discerns the spiritual light which it has in order that it may readily discern the imperfection which is presented to it; even as, when the ray of which we have spoken, within the room, is dark and not itself visible, if one introduce a hand or any other thing into its path, the hand is then seen and it is realized that that sunlight is present. 5. Wherefore, since this spiritual light is so simple, pure and general, not appropriated or restricted to any particular thing that can be understood, whether natural or Divine (since with respect to all these apprehensions the faculties of the soul are empty and annihilated), it follows that with great comprehensiveness and readiness the soul discerns and penetrates whatsoever thing presents itself to it, whether it come from above or from below; for which cause the Apostle said: That the spiritual man searches all things, even the deep things of God.[141] For by this general and simple wisdom is understood that which the Holy Spirit says through the Wise Man, namely: That it reaches wheresoever it wills by reason of its purity;[142] that is to say, because it is not restricted to any particular object of the intellect or affection. And this is the characteristic of the spirit that is purged and annihilated with respect to all particular affections and objects of the understanding, that in this state wherein it has pleasure in nothing and understands nothing in particular, but dwells in its emptiness, darkness and obscurity, it is fully prepared to embrace everything to the end that those words of Saint Paul may be fulfilled in it: Nihil habentes, et omnia possidentes.[143] For such poverty of spirit as this would deserve such happiness. CHAPTER IX How, although this night brings darkness to the spirit, it does so in order to illumine it and give it light. IT now remains to be said that, although this happy night brings darkness to the spirit, it does so only to give it light in everything; and that, although it humbles it and makes it miserable, it does so only to exalt it and to raise it up; and, although it impoverishes it and empties it of all natural affection and attachment, it does so only that it may enable it to stretch forward, divinely, and thus to have fruition and experience of all things, both above and below, yet to preserve its unrestricted liberty of spirit in them all. For just as the elements, in order that they may have a part in all natural entities and compounds, must have no particular colour, odour or taste, so as to be able to combine with all tastes odours and colours, just so must the spirit be simple, pure and detached from all kinds of natural affection, whether actual or habitual, to the end that it may be able freely to share in the breadth of spirit of the Divine Wisdom, wherein, through its purity, it has experience of all the sweetness of all things in a certain pre-eminently excellent way.[144] And without this purgation it will be wholly unable to feel or experience the satisfaction of all this abundance of spiritual sweetness. For one single affection remaining in the spirit, or one particular thing to which, actually or habitually, it clings, suffices to hinder it from feeling or experiencing or communicating the delicacy and intimate sweetness of the spirit of love, which contains within itself all sweetness to a most eminent degree.[145] 2. For, even as the children of Israel, solely because they retained one single affection and remembrance—namely, with respect to the fleshpots and the meals which they had tasted in Egypt[146]—could not relish the delicate bread of angels, in the desert, which was the manna, which, as the Divine Scripture says, held sweetness for every taste and turned to the taste that each one desired;[147] even so the spirit cannot succeed in enjoying the delights of the spirit of liberty, according to the desire of the will, if it be still affectioned to any desire, whether actual or habitual, or to particular objects of understanding, or to any other apprehension. The reason for this is that the affections, feelings and apprehensions of the perfect spirit, being Divine, are of another kind and of a very different order from those that are natural. They are pre-eminent, so that, in order both actually and habitually to possess the one, it is needful to expel and annihilate the other, as with two contrary things, which cannot exist together in one person. Therefore it is most fitting and necessary, if the soul is to pass to these great things, that this dark night of contemplation should first of all annihilate and undo it in its meannesses, bringing it into darkness, aridity, affliction and emptiness; for the light which is to be given to it is a Divine light of the highest kind, which transcends all natural light, and which by nature can find no place in the understanding. 3. And thus it is fitting that, if the understanding is to be united with that light and become Divine in the state of perfection, it should first of all be purged and annihilated as to its natural light, and, by means of this dark contemplation, be brought actually into darkness. This darkness should continue for as long as is needful in order to expel and annihilate the habit which the soul has long since formed in its manner of understanding, and the Divine light and illumination will then take its place. And thus, inasmuch as that power of understanding which it had aforetime is natural, it follows that the darkness which it here suffers is profound and horrible and most painful, for this darkness, being felt in the deepest substance of the spirit, seems to be substantial darkness. Similarly, since the affection of love which is to be given to it in the Divine union of love is Divine, and therefore very spiritual, subtle and delicate, and very intimate, transcending every affection and feeling of the will, and every desire thereof, it is fitting that, in order that the will may be able to attain to this Divine affection and most lofty delight, and to feel it and experience it through the union of love, since it is not, in the way of nature, perceptible to the will, it be first of all purged and annihilated in all its affections and feelings, and left in a condition of aridity and constraint, proportionate to the habit of natural affections which it had before, with respect both to Divine things and to human. Thus, being exhausted, withered and thoroughly tried in the fire of this dark contemplation, and having driven away every kind[148] of evil spirit (as with the heart of the fish which Tobias set on the coals[149]), it may have a simple and pure disposition, and its palate may be purged and healthy, so that it may feel the rare and sublime touches of Divine love, wherein it will see itself divinely transformed, and all the contrarieties, whether actual or habitual, which it had aforetime, will be expelled, as we are saying. 4. Moreover, in order to attain the said union to which this dark night is disposing and leading it, the soul must be filled and endowed with a certain glorious magnificence in its communion with God, which includes within itself innumerable blessings springing from delights which exceed all the abundance that the soul can naturally possess. For by nature the soul is so weak and impure that it cannot receive all this. As Isaias says: 'Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, that which God hath prepared, etc.'[150] It is meet, then, that the soul be first of all brought into emptiness and poverty of spirit and purged from all help, consolation and natural apprehension with respect to all things, both above and below. In this way, being empty, it is able indeed to be poor in spirit and freed from the old man, in order to live that new and blessed life which is attained by means of this night, and which is the state of union with God. 5. And because the soul is to attain to the possession of a sense, and of a Divine knowledge, which is very generous and full of sweetness, with respect to things Divine and human, which fall not within the common experience and natural knowledge of the soul (because it looks on them with eyes as different from those of the past as spirit is different from sense and the Divine from the human), the spirit must be straitened[151] and inured to hardships as regards its common and natural experience, and be brought by means of this purgative contemplation into great anguish and affliction, and the memory must be borne far from all agreeable and peaceful knowledge, and have an intimated sense and feeling that it is making a pilgrimage and being a stranger to all things, so that it seems to it that all things are strange and of a different kind from that which they were wont to be. For this night is gradually drawing the spirit away from its ordinary and common experience of things and bringing it nearer the Divine sense, which is a stranger and an alien to all human ways. It seems now to the soul that it is going forth from its very self, with much affliction. At other times it wonders if it is under a charm or a spell, and it goes about marvelling at the things that it sees and hears, which seem to it very strange and rare, though they are the same that it was accustomed to experience aforetime. The reason of this is that the soul is now becoming alien and remote from common sense and knowledge of things, in order that, being annihilated in this respect, it may be informed with the Divine—which belongs rather to the next life than to this. 6. The soul suffers all these afflictive purgations of the spirit to the end that it may be begotten anew in spiritual life by means of this Divine inflowing, and in these pangs may bring forth the spirit of salvation, that the saying of Isaias may be fulfilled: 'In Thy sight, O Lord, we have conceived, and we have been as in the pangs of labour, and we have brought forth the spirit of salvation.'[152] Moreover, since by means of this contemplative night the soul is prepared for the attainment of inward peace and tranquillity, which is of such a kind and so delectable that, as the Scripture says, it passes all understanding,[153] it behoves the soul to abandon all its former peace. This was in reality no peace at all, since it was involved in imperfections; but to the soul aforementioned it appeared to be so, because it was following its own inclinations, which were for peace. It seemed, indeed, to be a twofold peace—that is, the soul believed that it had already acquired the peace of sense and that of spirit, for it found itself to be full of the spiritual abundance of this peace of sense and of spirit—as I say, it is still imperfect. First of all, then, it must be purged of that former peace and disquieted concerning it and withdrawn from it.[154] Even so was Jeremias when, in the passage which we quoted from him, he felt and lamented[155] thus, in order to express the calamities of this night that is past, saying: 'My soul is withdrawn and removed from peace.'[156] 7. This is a painful disturbance, involving many misgivings, imaginings, and strivings which the soul has within itself, wherein, with the apprehension and realization of the miseries it which it sees itself, it fancies that it is lost and that its blessings have gone for ever. Wherefore the spirit experiences pain and sighing so deep that they cause it vehement spiritual groans and cries, to which at times it gives vocal expression; when it has the necessary strength and power it dissolves into tears, although this relief comes but seldom. David describes this very aptly, in a Psalm, as one who has had experience of it, where he says: 'I was exceedingly afflicted and humbled; I roared with the groaning of my heart.'[157] This roaring implies great pain; for at times, with the sudden and acute remembrance of these miseries wherein the soul sees itself, pain and affliction rise up and surround it, and I know not how the affections of the soul could be described[158] save in the similitude of holy Job, when he was in the same trials, and uttered these words: 'Even as the overflowing of the waters, even so is my roaring.'[159] For just as at times the waters make such inundations that they overwhelm and fill everything, so at times this roaring and this affliction of the soul grow to such an extent that they overwhelm it and penetrate it completely, filling it with spiritual pain and anguish in all its deep affections and energies, to an extent surpassing all possibility of exaggeration. 8. Such is the work wrought in the soul by this night that hides the hopes of the light of day. With regard to this the prophet Job says likewise: 'In the night my mouth is pierced with sorrows and they that feed upon me sleep not.'[160] Now here by the mouth is understood the will, which is transpierced with these pains that tear the soul to pieces, neither ceasing nor sleeping, for the doubts and misgivings which transpierce the soul in this way never cease. 9. Deep is this warfare and this striving, for the peace which the soul hopes for will be very deep; and the spiritual pain is intimate and delicate, for the love which it will possess will likewise be very intimate and refined. The more intimate and the more perfect the finished work is to be and to remain, the more intimate, perfect and pure must be the labour; the firmer the edifice, the harder the labour. Wherefore, as Job says, the soul is fading within itself, and its vitals are being consumed without any hope.[161] Similarly, because in the state of perfection toward which it journeys by means of this purgative night the soul will attain to the possession and fruition of innumerable blessings, of gifts and virtues, both according to the substance of the soul and likewise according to its faculties, it must needs see and feel itself withdrawn from them all and deprived of them all and be empty and poor without them; and it must needs believe itself to be so far from them that it cannot persuade itself that it will ever reach them, but rather it must be convinced that all its good things are over. The words of Jeremias have a similar meaning in that passage already quoted, where he says: 'I have forgotten good things.'[162] 10. But let us now see the reason why this light of contemplation, which is so sweet and blessed to the soul that there is naught more desirable (for, as has been said above, it is the same wherewith the soul must be united and wherein it must find all the good things in the state of perfection that it desires), produces, when it assails the soul, these beginnings which are so painful and these effects which are so disagreeable, as we have here said. 1l. This question is easy for us to answer, by explaining, as we have already done in part, that the cause of this is that, in contemplation and the Divine inflowing, there is naught that of itself can cause affliction, but that they rather cause great sweetness and delight, as we shall say hereafter. The cause is rather the weakness and imperfection from which the soul then suffers, and the dispositions which it has in itself and which make it unfit for the reception of them. Wherefore, when the said Divine light assails the soul, it must needs cause it to suffer after the manner aforesaid. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 In a message dated 12/26/04 9:04:41 PM, lbb10 writes: > Dear Pete, > > >You are correct. It is not by effort of any sort that brings about the > fruition you speak of and this knowledge has been part of the Christian > >mystical tradition for more that 1800 years. The " purgation by dark > fire " is not self-inflicted penance and austerities, nor is it by > >intellection or meditation, nor emotional pouring and contrivance upon > imaginary concepts, gurus, messiahs as persons, and the like. These are > >the human efforts to achieve a misunderstood goal: salvation, a place in > >heaven, resurrection and so on. > >There is suffering on the way as " dying to self " occurs while still > alive and this " dying to self " is not pleasant until there is complete > >surrender that paradoxically is not achieved by human effort. > >To share this view more fully so that the other members of the forum > unfamiliar with mystical theology may see and experience as you do, > >Chapters V through IX of the Dark Night of the Soul are pasted below. > The chapters will help in some ways to clear away popular > >misunderstandings of the commonly dropped phrase " dark night of the > soul, " that usually refers to someone having a hard time (aridness, > depression) in spiritual practice, which is not meaning intended or > >experienced by St. John of the Cross and other Discalced Carmelties. It > is recommended to read the book in its entirety for the very detailed > >and intimate look at the movements and difficulties in interior life. > The text is drawn personal experience of St. John of the Cross and has > >been a rich resource, though somewhat unknown and under utilized > .resource for nearly 500 years. > Dear harsha, Thanks for your input. St. John of the Cross' " Dark Night... " is an invaluable contribution to contenplative literature, and a powerful tool in time of 'spiritual growing pains,' it might be useful to note that like all Xtian literature it's heavely encoded with metaphore, and bible imagines, which makes it subject to all kinds of interpretations and misunderstandings. So it could be helpful to point out that the kernel of it, is quite simple: Numen= unknown and the mind seeks knowledge. Faced with Numen the mind is faced with the impossible realization that it must completely cease its attemps to know, to possess that which it desires. In fact, it must die to realize. This predicament engenders all kinds of fears and sufferings. This process, as you know, is the must radical aclimatation a human being could face. Our world is turned upside down, and sometimes, quite briskly, and without warning or preparation. Once we enter this 'cloud of unknowing', only patience and letting go will aid. Even consciousness, the soul of our soul, would at one point be felt as a burden. So the saying of St. Therese of Avila, " Que. muero por que no muero. " which loosely translated reads, " I am dying because I can't completely die. " Best to you, Pete > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Pedsie2 wrote: > > In a message dated 12/26/04 9:04:41 PM, lbb10 writes: > > > > Dear Pete, > > > > >You are correct. It is not by effort of any sort that brings about the > > fruition you speak of and this knowledge has been part of the Christian > > >mystical tradition for more that 1800 years. The " purgation by dark > > fire " is not self-inflicted penance and austerities, nor is it by > > >intellection or meditation, nor emotional pouring and contrivance upon > > imaginary concepts, gurus, messiahs as persons, and the like. These are > > >the human efforts to achieve a misunderstood goal: salvation, a place in > > >heaven, resurrection and so on. > > >There is suffering on the way as " dying to self " occurs while still > > alive and this " dying to self " is not pleasant until there is complete > > >surrender that paradoxically is not achieved by human effort. > > >To share this view more fully so that the other members of the forum > > unfamiliar with mystical theology may see and experience as you do, > > >Chapters V through IX of the Dark Night of the Soul are pasted below. > > The chapters will help in some ways to clear away popular > > >misunderstandings of the commonly dropped phrase " dark night of the > > soul, " that usually refers to someone having a hard time (aridness, > > depression) in spiritual practice, which is not meaning intended or > > >experienced by St. John of the Cross and other Discalced Carmelties. It > > is recommended to read the book in its entirety for the very detailed > > >and intimate look at the movements and difficulties in interior life. > > The text is drawn personal experience of St. John of the Cross and has > > >been a rich resource, though somewhat unknown and under utilized > > .resource for nearly 500 years. > > > Dear harsha, > > Thanks for your input. St. John of the Cross' " Dark Night... " is an > invaluable contribution > to contenplative literature, and a powerful tool in time of 'spiritual > growing pains,' > it might be useful to note that like all Xtian literature it's heavely > encoded with > metaphore, and bible imagines, which makes it subject to all kinds of > interpretations > and misunderstandings. So it could be helpful to point out that the > kernel of > it, is > quite simple: Numen= unknown and the mind seeks knowledge. Faced with > Numen > the mind is faced with the impossible realization that it must completely > cease its > attemps to know, to possess that which it desires. In fact, it must > die to > realize. > This predicament engenders all kinds of fears and sufferings. > > This process, as you know, is the must radical aclimatation a human being > could > face. Our world is turned upside down, and sometimes, quite briskly, and > without warning or preparation. Once we enter this 'cloud of unknowing', > only > patience and letting go will aid. Even consciousness, the soul of our soul, > would > at one point be felt as a burden. So the saying of St. Therese of > Avila, " > Que. > muero por que no muero. " which loosely translated reads, " I am dying because > I can't completely die. " > > Best to you, > Pete ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well said and lovely. harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 12/26/04 9:04:41 PM, lbb10@c... writes: > > > > > > > Dear Pete, > > > > > > >You are correct. It is not by effort of any sort that brings about the > > > fruition you speak of and this knowledge has been part of the Christian > > > >mystical tradition for more that 1800 years. The " purgation by dark > > > fire " is not self-inflicted penance and austerities, nor is it by > > > >intellection or meditation, nor emotional pouring and contrivance upon > > > imaginary concepts, gurus, messiahs as persons, and the like. These are > > > >the human efforts to achieve a misunderstood goal: salvation, a place in > > > >heaven, resurrection and so on. > > > >There is suffering on the way as " dying to self " occurs while still > > > alive and this " dying to self " is not pleasant until there is complete > > > >surrender that paradoxically is not achieved by human effort. > > > >To share this view more fully so that the other members of the forum > > > unfamiliar with mystical theology may see and experience as you do, > > > >Chapters V through IX of the Dark Night of the Soul are pasted below. > > > The chapters will help in some ways to clear away popular > > > >misunderstandings of the commonly dropped phrase " dark night of the > > > soul, " that usually refers to someone having a hard time (aridness, > > > depression) in spiritual practice, which is not meaning intended or > > > >experienced by St. John of the Cross and other Discalced Carmelties. It > > > is recommended to read the book in its entirety for the very detailed > > > >and intimate look at the movements and difficulties in interior life. > > > The text is drawn personal experience of St. John of the Cross and has > > > >been a rich resource, though somewhat unknown and under utilized > > > .resource for nearly 500 years. > > > > > Dear harsha, > > > > Thanks for your input. St. John of the Cross' " Dark Night... " is an > > invaluable contribution > > to contenplative literature, and a powerful tool in time of 'spiritual > > growing pains,' > > it might be useful to note that like all Xtian literature it's heavely > > encoded with > > metaphore, and bible imagines, which makes it subject to all kinds of > > interpretations > > and misunderstandings. So it could be helpful to point out that the > > kernel of > > it, is > > quite simple: Numen= unknown and the mind seeks knowledge. Faced with > > Numen > > the mind is faced with the impossible realization that it must completely > > cease its > > attemps to know, to possess that which it desires. In fact, it must > > die to > > realize. > > This predicament engenders all kinds of fears and sufferings. > > > > This process, as you know, is the must radical aclimatation a human being > > could > > face. Our world is turned upside down, and sometimes, quite briskly, and > > without warning or preparation. Once we enter this 'cloud of unknowing', > > only > > patience and letting go will aid. Even consciousness, the soul of our soul, > > would > > at one point be felt as a burden. So the saying of St. Therese of > > Avila, " > > Que. > > muero por que no muero. " which loosely translated reads, " I am dying because > > I can't completely die. " > > > > Best to you, > > Pete > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Well said and lovely. > > harsha *********************************** So you are harsha, So you will be Alexandra the great. That is possible too... no? Don't we make history! Odysseus, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 ilikezen2004 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> > wrote: > > > > > > Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/26/04 9:04:41 PM, lbb10@c... writes: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pete, > > > > > > > > >You are correct. It is not by effort of any sort that brings > about the > > > > fruition you speak of and this knowledge has been part of the > Christian > > > > >mystical tradition for more that 1800 years. The " purgation > by dark > > > > fire " is not self-inflicted penance and austerities, nor is > it by > > > > >intellection or meditation, nor emotional pouring and > contrivance upon > > > > imaginary concepts, gurus, messiahs as persons, and the like. > These are > > > > >the human efforts to achieve a misunderstood goal: > salvation, a place in > > > > >heaven, resurrection and so on. > > > > >There is suffering on the way as " dying to self " occurs > while still > > > > alive and this " dying to self " is not pleasant until there is > complete > > > > >surrender that paradoxically is not achieved by human effort. > > > > >To share this view more fully so that the other members of > the forum > > > > unfamiliar with mystical theology may see and experience as > you do, > > > > >Chapters V through IX of the Dark Night of the Soul are > pasted below. > > > > The chapters will help in some ways to clear away popular > > > > >misunderstandings of the commonly dropped phrase " dark night > of the > > > > soul, " that usually refers to someone having a hard time > (aridness, > > > > depression) in spiritual practice, which is not meaning > intended or > > > > >experienced by St. John of the Cross and other Discalced > Carmelties. It > > > > is recommended to read the book in its entirety for the very > detailed > > > > >and intimate look at the movements and difficulties in > interior life. > > > > The text is drawn personal experience of St. John of the > Cross and has > > > > >been a rich resource, though somewhat unknown and under > utilized > > > > .resource for nearly 500 years. > > > > > > > Dear harsha, > > > > > > Thanks for your input. St. John of the Cross' " Dark Night... " is > an > > > invaluable contribution > > > to contenplative literature, and a powerful tool in time > of 'spiritual > > > growing pains,' > > > it might be useful to note that like all Xtian literature it's > heavely > > > encoded with > > > metaphore, and bible imagines, which makes it subject to all > kinds of > > > interpretations > > > and misunderstandings. So it could be helpful to point out that > the > > > kernel of > > > it, is > > > quite simple: Numen= unknown and the mind seeks knowledge. > Faced with > > > Numen > > > the mind is faced with the impossible realization that it must > completely > > > cease its > > > attemps to know, to possess that which it desires. In fact, it > must > > > die to > > > realize. > > > This predicament engenders all kinds of fears and sufferings. > > > > > > This process, as you know, is the must radical aclimatation a > human being > > > could > > > face. Our world is turned upside down, and sometimes, quite > briskly, and > > > without warning or preparation. Once we enter this 'cloud of > unknowing', > > > only > > > patience and letting go will aid. Even consciousness, the soul > of our soul, > > > would > > > at one point be felt as a burden. So the saying of St. > Therese of > > > Avila, " > > > Que. > > > muero por que no muero. " which loosely translated reads, " I am > dying because > > > I can't completely die. " > > > > > > Best to you, > > > Pete > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Well said and lovely. > > > > harsha > > *********************************** > > So you are harsha, So you will be Alexandra the great. That is > possible too... no? Don't we make history! > > Odysseus, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes Odysseus, it is the merging of the mythical and mundane worlds into a new world never seen or experienced before. Ancient memories may be called upon, but there is no need. Infinite wisdom and youthful strength forges new paths on a new earth unbounded by imaginary demarcations and static symbolic orders. The creation is fluid and moves as it does leaving traces of flowing love of union undying and changing names that form the circuits of giving and giving. There is the evernew the neverold, this is destiny. Alexander the great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 12/26/04 10:41:20 AM, ilikezen2004 writes: > > > > >Hey Pete, My master YWH wrote something similar in the bible. And > > you hate the bible and Jesus? It's is funny no? :0) > > > > You like the fruit but you don't like the tree! It is written there > > >too! > > > > >Odysseus, > > > Dear Albertico, > I'm not Alberto. I am Odysseus! :0) > I was a Xtian once, and wrote poems to Jesus. I hate > no one. Neither santa, nor jesus. I just point to games. > When I see a game of self-glorification being played, > I call it by its name. Odysseus: If this it what you see! hi hi hi! You are blind my friend! Few like being called on their > games, they prefer being flattered, and called great, and beloved. Odysseus: You don't like to be flattered, called great, and beloved? This is only because you have abandoned Jesus while ago and you feel alone and empty. You obsessed with lonelyness and you created your own lonely world of emptiness. Jesus is not emptyness. Jesus is not unlove or an emotionless state of being where you can pretend yourself to be free from existance. You caught in your own rebellion against the Lord. Like Lucifer once. You cannot worship two master said the Lord. You love Satan or you love God. You live in the light or you choose darkness. Are you really sure you are in the light??? ha ha ha! Is the void the light? Is unlove the light. Ask Alexandra the great she will show you what love is. Ohh Alexandra I feel your love in my veins. This bliss of yours intoxicates me! :0) You know Friend maybe you can take emotional courses. You know start to feel something ;0) > Maybe, since you are such good Xtian, you will enjoy > this poem I wrote before you were born, and knew Jesus > ever existed. > > A Jesus > > Dios omnipotente, maestro divino > Devuelve la vista a este peregrino > No la vista externa que adora la luz > Mas esa, la interna, que adora tu cruz > Que mis pobres ojos solo ven horror > Entre los abrojos que nos dan dolor > Mi espíritu ciego, débil, enfermizo > No ve ya la ruta que va al paraíso Odysseus: Read the above poem my friend; This is your actual state you think you have reached something. But see above you are lost. You lost the way to heaven, you only suffer. You are blind. You only see horror. Your spirit is blind, sick. and you don't see the road to paradise anymore!! This is the translation of your poem! Of course you will say this is long time ago! Yes it is true. It is long time ago that you have lost the way to paradise too! :0)) > Que sentir dolor sin buscar consuelo > Es haber ganado, como Tu, el Cielo. > > Pete > > It's interesting to note how suffering is the key note both in Christianity > and Buddhism. With the difference than in Buddhism it's viewed as an > enemy to be understood and conquered, and in Christ's teachings, it is > something to be accepted and embraced. " Pick up your cross, and follow > me, " said Christ. With this he indicated that suffering is not the enemy, > but the way itself. This has been conveniently ignored by the average > Christian. And even those who understood, have mis-interpreted the > way, by seeking austerities, pain, and discomfort, and considering the > body an enemy to be deprived and punished. Of course, that is not the > way. Suffering when sought breeds pride, the suffering which is the > way is the one that comes unsought, the one that is not of our choosing. > That one is the hardest to bear, and the one that bears fruit. That one, > is not flashy, not heroic. To accept rebuke without defense or attack, > to turn the other cheek, to recognize a teacher in those who criticize us, > and a danger in those who flatter, to love thy enemies, that's the > Christian way. Can you do that? > > Your friend in Christ, > Not Much ) Bla bla bla above pete, I cannot understand what you mean above because I have only one cell in my brain! hi hi hi! Read to yourself what you wrote above and tell me if you do this! Mr " No hero " . Love Odysseus, P.S. Do you know what true Love is mr Buddha! ha ha ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2004 Report Share Posted December 29, 2004 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: >I was a Xtian once, and wrote poems to Jesus. Hi Pete. You believe you were a " Christian " . And now, what are you now? A " Non Christian " . Both is the same, just two sides of the same coin. You are taking certain personal positions, thats all. >When I see a game of self-glorification being played, >I call it by its name. Calling it by this name you are showing that you are part of this game yourself. It is fine, it does not make you inferiour in my eyes. I just would like to point out: you can point to a game only if you have a position outside the game. >Few like being called on their games, they prefer being flattered, >and called great, and beloved. If you would have the courage to step outside the game, you could see that everybody is great and worth to be loved by you. Just as yourself. Right now you glorificate yourself in this posting by saying that you are pointing to " self-glorification " of others. Nothing wrong about it! Basically you are just showing that you want to be loved like everybody. This is so much understandable! But you can openly self-glorificate yourself, no need to hide. Greetings S. P.S.: do you still feel that I am " critisizing " you? I am not. You are just as perfect or unperfect as everybody, in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > >I was a Xtian once, and wrote poems to Jesus. > > Hi Pete. > > You believe you were a " Christian " . And now, what are you now? A " Non > Christian " . Both is the same, just two sides of the same coin. You are > taking certain personal positions, thats all. > > >When I see a game of self-glorification being played, > >I call it by its name. > > Calling it by this name you are showing that you are part of this > game yourself. It is fine, it does not make you inferiour in my eyes. > I just would like to point out: you can point to a game only if you > have a position outside the game. > > >Few like being called on their games, they prefer being flattered, > >and called great, and beloved. > > If you would have the courage to step outside the game, you could see > that everybody is great and worth to be loved by you. Just as > yourself. Right now you glorificate yourself in this posting by > saying that you are pointing to " self-glorification " of others. > Nothing wrong about it! Basically you are just showing that > you want to be loved like everybody. This is so much understandable! ********************************************* Odysseus: Ha ha ha! Achileas, It is soo obvious.. but he is the only one who doesn't want to admit it. He want to be loved soo hard but he doesn't believe in true love!! he thinks Love is for the bhaktas. or the Christians. That with his Supreme mind he is above all that ridicule belief. :0)) So what is he going to do?? Teach the other by forcing them to believe what he's saying is the truth. Like he did before. He doesn't know him self what to believe but he want us to believe what he says??? Hey Pete, stop hiding, real life is calling you... you exist! You are not a ghost neither a non-existing being! Ok! :0) Love *************************************************** >Stefan: Pete, you can openly self-glorificate yourself, no need to hide. > Odysseus: Hey Pete, You already glorify yourself. But it is ok. I see nothing. Ok! :0) **************************************************************** > Greetings > S. > > P.S.: do you still feel that I am " critisizing " you? I am not. You are > just as perfect or unperfect as everybody, in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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