Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If we don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later point say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught having lied. Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will have to be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of personal lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading to another lie leading to three other lies leading to... The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and fearless state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't give a damn about future consequences including the risk of being caught telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there fully in the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of being. We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to liberate ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of lies sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). Liberate yourself! /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If we > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later point > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > having lied. > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will have to > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of personal > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading to > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and fearless > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't give a > damn about future consequences including the risk of being caught > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there fully in > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of being. > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to liberate > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of lies > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > Liberate yourself! > > /AL LOL! Isn't every lie a result of the need to control (read: fear)? Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If we > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later > point > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > > having lied. > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will have > to > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of personal > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading to > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and fearless > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't give a > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being caught > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there fully > in > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of > being. > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to liberate > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of lies > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > /AL > > > LOL! > Isn't every lie a result of the need to control (read: fear)? > > Len Hehe. No. A lie standing on its own is full control in the living moment. A lie that has to be remembered as a personal act is partial control, i.e. fear. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If we > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later > > point > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > > > having lied. > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will have > > to > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of personal > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading to > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and fearless > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't give a > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being caught > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there fully > > in > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of > > being. > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to liberate > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of lies > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > LOL! > > Isn't every lie a result of the need to control (read: fear)? > > > > Len > > Hehe. No. A lie standing on its own is full control in the living > moment. A lie that has to be remembered as a personal act is partial > control, i.e. fear. > > /AL Why do you lie? What's your motive? Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If > we > > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later > > > point > > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > > > > having lied. > > > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will > have > > > to > > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of > personal > > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading > to > > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and > fearless > > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't > give a > > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being > caught > > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there > fully > > > in > > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of > > > being. > > > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to > liberate > > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of > lies > > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > Isn't every lie a result of the need to control (read: fear)? > > > > > > Len > > > > Hehe. No. A lie standing on its own is full control in the living > > moment. A lie that has to be remembered as a personal act is partial > > control, i.e. fear. > > > > /AL > > > Why do you lie? > What's your motive? > > Len I lie to protect myself. But my goal is to lie out of the present moment without fear. I then say something which may be true (relatively speaking) or a lie. If it is a lie that comes out of presence, then that lie is an act of creation, not an act out of fear. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > <lissbon2002> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > > > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If > > we > > > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later > > > > point > > > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > > > > > having lied. > > > > > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will > > have > > > > to > > > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > > > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of > > personal > > > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading > > to > > > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and > > fearless > > > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't > > give a > > > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being > > caught > > > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there > > fully > > > > in > > > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of > > > > being. > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to > > liberate > > > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of > > lies > > > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > Isn't every lie a result of the need to control (read: fear)? > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > Hehe. No. A lie standing on its own is full control in the living > > > moment. A lie that has to be remembered as a personal act is partial > > > control, i.e. fear. > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > Why do you lie? > > What's your motive? > > > > Len > > I lie to protect myself. But my goal is to lie out of the present > moment without fear. I then say something which may be true > (relatively speaking) or a lie. If it is a lie that comes out of > presence, then that lie is an act of creation, not an act out of fear. > > /AL Well, if this is what you wish to believe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > > <lissbon2002> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial > control > > > > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the > lie. If > > > we > > > > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some > later > > > > > point > > > > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be > caught > > > > > > having lied. > > > > > > > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies > will > > > have > > > > > to > > > > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some > other > > > > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of > > > personal > > > > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie > leading > > > to > > > > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and > > > fearless > > > > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we > don't > > > give a > > > > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being > > > caught > > > > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be > there > > > fully > > > > > in > > > > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated > state of > > > > > being. > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to > > > liberate > > > > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal > web of > > > lies > > > > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > Isn't every lie a result of the need to control (read: fear)? > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > Hehe. No. A lie standing on its own is full control in the > living > > > > moment. A lie that has to be remembered as a personal act is > partial > > > > control, i.e. fear. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > Why do you lie? > > > What's your motive? > > > > > > Len > > > > I lie to protect myself. But my goal is to lie out of the present > > moment without fear. I then say something which may be true > > (relatively speaking) or a lie. If it is a lie that comes out of > > presence, then that lie is an act of creation, not an act out of > fear. > > > > /AL > > Well, if this is what you wish to believe... To be free from fear means to be free from the fear of telling lies. Yes? No? /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Anders, Why so complicated ? Guilt is the fear to be left alone. Remembering one's lies originates in the fear they could become public and it's resulting consequences: That others could mark us as a liar and turn their back against us. Quaaaaaaaaaaaaack, quaaaaaack, quaaaack ... Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If we > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later point > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > having lied. > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will have to > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of personal > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading to > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and fearless > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't give a > damn about future consequences including the risk of being caught > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there fully in > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of being. > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to liberate > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of lies > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > Liberate yourself! > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Anders, > > Why so complicated ? > > Guilt is the fear to be left alone. > > Remembering one's lies originates in the fear they could become public > and it's resulting consequences: That others could mark us as a liar > and turn their back against us. > > Quaaaaaaaaaaaaack, quaaaaaack, quaaaack ... > > > Werner But it _is_ complicated. So much energy wasted in remembering silly lies! The web of personal lies is an ever growing demon inside a human being. That's an immature state of being. /AL > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If we > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later > point > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > > having lied. > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will have > to > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of personal > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading to > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and fearless > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't give a > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being caught > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there fully > in > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of > being. > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to liberate > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of lies > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Ha ! I don't have this problem - I don't lie, I am a good boy. Question: Does this fear of being identified as a liar arises towards every person or just with those we are in one way or another dependend of. Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Anders, > > > > Why so complicated ? > > > > Guilt is the fear to be left alone. > > > > Remembering one's lies originates in the fear they could become public > > and it's resulting consequences: That others could mark us as a liar > > and turn their back against us. > > > > Quaaaaaaaaaaaaack, quaaaaaack, quaaaack ... > > > > > > Werner > > But it _is_ complicated. So much energy wasted in remembering silly > lies! The web of personal lies is an ever growing demon inside a human > being. That's an immature state of being. > > /AL > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If we > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later > > point > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > > > having lied. > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will have > > to > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of personal > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading to > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and fearless > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't give a > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being caught > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there fully > > in > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of > > being. > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to liberate > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of lies > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Ha ! > > I don't have this problem - I don't lie, I am a good boy. > > Question: > > Does this fear of being identified as a liar arises towards every > person or just with those we are in one way or another dependend of. > > Werner There can also be unconscious lies happening. We present ourselves in one way that is modelled by our ideas of society's requrements and in that there can be a subtle conflict between what we really feel inside and what we present to other people. The fear connected to our lies is related to all other persons, because we never know what we need to defend ourselves against in the future. But really what our lies are connected to are the _ideas_ we have about other people and ourselves. /AL > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > Why so complicated ? > > > > > > Guilt is the fear to be left alone. > > > > > > Remembering one's lies originates in the fear they could become > public > > > and it's resulting consequences: That others could mark us as a > liar > > > and turn their back against us. > > > > > > Quaaaaaaaaaaaaack, quaaaaaack, quaaaack ... > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > But it _is_ complicated. So much energy wasted in remembering silly > > lies! The web of personal lies is an ever growing demon inside a > human > > being. That's an immature state of being. > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If > we > > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later > > > point > > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > > > > having lied. > > > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will > have > > > to > > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of > personal > > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading > to > > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and > fearless > > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't > give a > > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being > caught > > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there > fully > > > in > > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of > > > being. > > > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to > liberate > > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of > lies > > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Anders, You haven't answered my question. Do we have defenses towards everyone or just with people we are dependend of ? Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Ha ! > > > > I don't have this problem - I don't lie, I am a good boy. > > > > Question: > > > > Does this fear of being identified as a liar arises towards every > > person or just with those we are in one way or another dependend of. > > > > Werner > > There can also be unconscious lies happening. We present ourselves in > one way that is modelled by our ideas of society's requrements and in > that there can be a subtle conflict between what we really feel inside > and what we present to other people. > > The fear connected to our lies is related to all other persons, > because we never know what we need to defend ourselves against in the > future. But really what our lies are connected to are the _ideas_ we > have about other people and ourselves. > > /AL > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > Why so complicated ? > > > > > > > > Guilt is the fear to be left alone. > > > > > > > > Remembering one's lies originates in the fear they could become > > public > > > > and it's resulting consequences: That others could mark us as a > > liar > > > > and turn their back against us. > > > > > > > > Quaaaaaaaaaaaaack, quaaaaaack, quaaaack ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > But it _is_ complicated. So much energy wasted in remembering silly > > > lies! The web of personal lies is an ever growing demon inside a > > human > > > being. That's an immature state of being. > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial control > > > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the lie. If > > we > > > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some later > > > > point > > > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be caught > > > > > having lied. > > > > > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies will > > have > > > > to > > > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some other > > > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of > > personal > > > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie leading > > to > > > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and > > fearless > > > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we don't > > give a > > > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being > > caught > > > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be there > > fully > > > > in > > > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated state of > > > > being. > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to > > liberate > > > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal web of > > lies > > > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Anders, > > You haven't answered my question. > > Do we have defenses towards everyone or just with people we are > dependend of ? > > Werner We don't know who we will be dependent on in the future. That means that in order to have a robust defense we have to defend ourselves against all other persons. Paranoia is not only an extreme form of disorder but also an ordinary human condition taken for granted in our society. /AL > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > > > > Ha ! > > > > > > I don't have this problem - I don't lie, I am a good boy. > > > > > > Question: > > > > > > Does this fear of being identified as a liar arises towards every > > > person or just with those we are in one way or another dependend > of. > > > > > > Werner > > > > There can also be unconscious lies happening. We present ourselves > in > > one way that is modelled by our ideas of society's requrements and > in > > that there can be a subtle conflict between what we really feel > inside > > and what we present to other people. > > > > The fear connected to our lies is related to all other persons, > > because we never know what we need to defend ourselves against in > the > > future. But really what our lies are connected to are the _ideas_ we > > have about other people and ourselves. > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > Why so complicated ? > > > > > > > > > > Guilt is the fear to be left alone. > > > > > > > > > > Remembering one's lies originates in the fear they could > become > > > public > > > > > and it's resulting consequences: That others could mark us as > a > > > liar > > > > > and turn their back against us. > > > > > > > > > > Quaaaaaaaaaaaaack, quaaaaaack, quaaaack ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > But it _is_ complicated. So much energy wasted in remembering > silly > > > > lies! The web of personal lies is an ever growing demon inside > a > > > human > > > > being. That's an immature state of being. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial > control > > > > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the > lie. If > > > we > > > > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some > later > > > > > point > > > > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be > caught > > > > > > having lied. > > > > > > > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies > will > > > have > > > > > to > > > > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some > other > > > > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of > > > personal > > > > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie > leading > > > to > > > > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and > > > fearless > > > > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we > don't > > > give a > > > > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being > > > caught > > > > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be > there > > > fully > > > > > in > > > > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated > state of > > > > > being. > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to > > > liberate > > > > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal > web of > > > lies > > > > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Oh heavens, Why all so complicated ? I give a damn hood if I am dependend of you tomrrow. Now, at this moment I am not. Will I now have defenses towards you ? Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Anders, > > > > You haven't answered my question. > > > > Do we have defenses towards everyone or just with people we are > > dependend of ? > > > > Werner > > We don't know who we will be dependent on in the future. That means > that in order to have a robust defense we have to defend ourselves > against all other persons. Paranoia is not only an extreme form of > disorder but also an ordinary human condition taken for granted in our > society. > > /AL > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Ha ! > > > > > > > > I don't have this problem - I don't lie, I am a good boy. > > > > > > > > Question: > > > > > > > > Does this fear of being identified as a liar arises towards every > > > > person or just with those we are in one way or another dependend > > of. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > There can also be unconscious lies happening. We present ourselves > > in > > > one way that is modelled by our ideas of society's requrements and > > in > > > that there can be a subtle conflict between what we really feel > > inside > > > and what we present to other people. > > > > > > The fear connected to our lies is related to all other persons, > > > because we never know what we need to defend ourselves against in > > the > > > future. But really what our lies are connected to are the _ideas_ we > > > have about other people and ourselves. > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > > > Why so complicated ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Guilt is the fear to be left alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > Remembering one's lies originates in the fear they could > > become > > > > public > > > > > > and it's resulting consequences: That others could mark us as > > a > > > > liar > > > > > > and turn their back against us. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quaaaaaaaaaaaaack, quaaaaaack, quaaaack ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > But it _is_ complicated. So much energy wasted in remembering > > silly > > > > > lies! The web of personal lies is an ever growing demon inside > > a > > > > human > > > > > being. That's an immature state of being. > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial > > control > > > > > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the > > lie. If > > > > we > > > > > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at some > > later > > > > > > point > > > > > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then be > > caught > > > > > > > having lied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other lies > > will > > > > have > > > > > > to > > > > > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by some > > other > > > > > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web of > > > > personal > > > > > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie > > leading > > > > to > > > > > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive and > > > > fearless > > > > > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we > > don't > > > > give a > > > > > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of being > > > > caught > > > > > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be > > there > > > > fully > > > > > > in > > > > > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated > > state of > > > > > > being. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need to > > > > liberate > > > > > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a personal > > web of > > > > lies > > > > > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Oh heavens, > > Why all so complicated ? I give a damn hood if I am dependend of you > tomrrow. Now, at this moment I am not. Will I now have defenses > towards you ? > > Werner Haha. You already have defenses towards me. Every person has defenses against _all_ other persons including him- or herself. I told you. Everybody is paranoid. :-) /AL > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > You haven't answered my question. > > > > > > Do we have defenses towards everyone or just with people we are > > > dependend of ? > > > > > > Werner > > > > We don't know who we will be dependent on in the future. That means > > that in order to have a robust defense we have to defend ourselves > > against all other persons. Paranoia is not only an extreme form of > > disorder but also an ordinary human condition taken for granted in > our > > society. > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ha ! > > > > > > > > > > I don't have this problem - I don't lie, I am a good boy. > > > > > > > > > > Question: > > > > > > > > > > Does this fear of being identified as a liar arises towards > every > > > > > person or just with those we are in one way or another > dependend > > > of. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > There can also be unconscious lies happening. We present > ourselves > > > in > > > > one way that is modelled by our ideas of society's requrements > and > > > in > > > > that there can be a subtle conflict between what we really feel > > > inside > > > > and what we present to other people. > > > > > > > > The fear connected to our lies is related to all other persons, > > > > because we never know what we need to defend ourselves against > in > > > the > > > > future. But really what our lies are connected to are the > _ideas_ we > > > > have about other people and ourselves. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why so complicated ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guilt is the fear to be left alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remembering one's lies originates in the fear they could > > > become > > > > > public > > > > > > > and it's resulting consequences: That others could mark > us as > > > a > > > > > liar > > > > > > > and turn their back against us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quaaaaaaaaaaaaack, quaaaaaack, quaaaack ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > But it _is_ complicated. So much energy wasted in > remembering > > > silly > > > > > > lies! The web of personal lies is an ever growing demon > inside > > > a > > > > > human > > > > > > being. That's an immature state of being. > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial > > > control > > > > > > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the > > > lie. If > > > > > we > > > > > > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at > some > > > later > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then > be > > > caught > > > > > > > > having lied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other > lies > > > will > > > > > have > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by > some > > > other > > > > > > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web > of > > > > > personal > > > > > > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie > > > leading > > > > > to > > > > > > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive > and > > > > > fearless > > > > > > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we > > > don't > > > > > give a > > > > > > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of > being > > > > > caught > > > > > > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be > > > there > > > > > fully > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated > > > state of > > > > > > > being. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need > to > > > > > liberate > > > > > > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a > personal > > > web of > > > > > lies > > > > > > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Anders, Come down to simplicity. The question is not if everyone suffers from paranoia but: Will I have any defenses towards someone I am not depending of ? Other way round: I want to be a respectable person, I want to be respected by everyone which includes the beggar next street or a housewife in the neighbourhood cleaning her windows. And so I depend on the respect of everyone. Will I be a defensive person or not ? Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Oh heavens, > > > > Why all so complicated ? I give a damn hood if I am dependend of you > > tomrrow. Now, at this moment I am not. Will I now have defenses > > towards you ? > > > > Werner > > Haha. You already have defenses towards me. Every person has defenses > against _all_ other persons including him- or herself. I told you. > Everybody is paranoid. :-) > > /AL > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > You haven't answered my question. > > > > > > > > Do we have defenses towards everyone or just with people we are > > > > dependend of ? > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > We don't know who we will be dependent on in the future. That means > > > that in order to have a robust defense we have to defend ourselves > > > against all other persons. Paranoia is not only an extreme form of > > > disorder but also an ordinary human condition taken for granted in > > our > > > society. > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ha ! > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have this problem - I don't lie, I am a good boy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Question: > > > > > > > > > > > > Does this fear of being identified as a liar arises towards > > every > > > > > > person or just with those we are in one way or another > > dependend > > > > of. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > There can also be unconscious lies happening. We present > > ourselves > > > > in > > > > > one way that is modelled by our ideas of society's requrements > > and > > > > in > > > > > that there can be a subtle conflict between what we really feel > > > > inside > > > > > and what we present to other people. > > > > > > > > > > The fear connected to our lies is related to all other persons, > > > > > because we never know what we need to defend ourselves against > > in > > > > the > > > > > future. But really what our lies are connected to are the > > _ideas_ we > > > > > have about other people and ourselves. > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why so complicated ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guilt is the fear to be left alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remembering one's lies originates in the fear they could > > > > become > > > > > > public > > > > > > > > and it's resulting consequences: That others could mark > > us as > > > > a > > > > > > liar > > > > > > > > and turn their back against us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quaaaaaaaaaaaaack, quaaaaaack, quaaaack ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it _is_ complicated. So much energy wasted in > > remembering > > > > silly > > > > > > > lies! The web of personal lies is an ever growing demon > > inside > > > > a > > > > > > human > > > > > > > being. That's an immature state of being. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The guilt we feel when having told a lie is a partial > > > > control > > > > > > > > > structure with a main purpose of making us remember the > > > > lie. If > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > don't remember having told the lie, then we could at > > some > > > > later > > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > > say something contradicting our own lie: we would then > > be > > > > caught > > > > > > > > > having lied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every lie has to be remembered in this way and other > > lies > > > > will > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > be told in order to keep the original lie uncaught by > > some > > > > other > > > > > > > > > person. This will eventually escalate into a whole web > > of > > > > > > personal > > > > > > > > > lies that have to be remembered and cultivated. One lie > > > > leading > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > another lie leading to three other lies leading to... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way out of this shit is to tell lies in a positive > > and > > > > > > fearless > > > > > > > > > state of being, meaning that when we have told a lie we > > > > don't > > > > > > give a > > > > > > > > > damn about future consequences including the risk of > > being > > > > > > caught > > > > > > > > > telling the lie. We let the lie stand on its own, to be > > > > there > > > > > > fully > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the present moment. We then tell lies from a liberated > > > > state of > > > > > > > > being. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We don't have to be honest all the time. We just need > > to > > > > > > liberate > > > > > > > > > ourselves from the trap of being entangled in a > > personal > > > > web of > > > > > > lies > > > > > > > > > sprung out of the need for partial control (read: fear). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Liberate yourself! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Anders, > > Come down to simplicity. The question is not if everyone suffers from > paranoia but: Will I have any defenses towards someone I am not > depending of ? > > Other way round: I want to be a respectable person, I want to be > respected by everyone which includes the beggar next street or a > housewife in the neighbourhood cleaning her windows. And so I depend > on the respect of everyone. Will I be a defensive person or not ? > > Werner > Yes, we want to be respectable persons and we want the respect from other people. But what is that really telling us? It is telling us that somehow our default state of being is not to be trusted. We are afraid that our own inner being somehow is flawed. This is a mild, yet severe form of paranoia. This weak structure called the personal me has to be protected and defensive. And the defensiveness extends into our whole view of the world and ourselves. There may be a greater focus and awareness on persons who we depend on, but ultimately we depend on everybody, and all people are in the end related and can effect each other. As David Icke says: Humanity is a herd of sheep policing and controlling each other. We have become both the sheep and the sheep dog. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Dear Anders, Why do you have to weave such a curtain arround a simple question ? I don't want to know anything about paranoia or weak structures or if we want to be respectable or about the view or the world arround us, and so on and so on. We also don't discuss if there is such a state as absolute independence, we don't discuss anything else related to my question. I just want to have an answer to this question: Will I have any defenses towards someone I am not the least dependent of ? Yes or no ? Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Anders, > > > > Come down to simplicity. The question is not if everyone suffers from > > paranoia but: Will I have any defenses towards someone I am not > > depending of ? > > > > Other way round: I want to be a respectable person, I want to be > > respected by everyone which includes the beggar next street or a > > housewife in the neighbourhood cleaning her windows. And so I depend > > on the respect of everyone. Will I be a defensive person or not ? > > > > Werner > > > > Yes, we want to be respectable persons and we want the respect from > other people. But what is that really telling us? It is telling us > that somehow our default state of being is not to be trusted. We are > afraid that our own inner being somehow is flawed. This is a mild, yet > severe form of paranoia. > > This weak structure called the personal me has to be protected and > defensive. And the defensiveness extends into our whole view of the > world and ourselves. There may be a greater focus and awareness on > persons who we depend on, but ultimately we depend on everybody, and > all people are in the end related and can effect each other. > > As David Icke says: Humanity is a herd of sheep policing and > controlling each other. We have become both the sheep and the sheep dog. > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Dear Anders, > > Why do you have to weave such a curtain arround a simple question ? I > don't want to know anything about paranoia or weak structures or if > we want to be respectable or about the view or the world arround us, > and so on and so on. We also don't discuss if there is such a state > as absolute independence, we don't discuss anything else related to > my question. > > I just want to have an answer to this question: Will I have any > defenses towards someone I am not the least dependent of ? > > Yes or no ? > > Werner You maybe don't need the curtain of words I have written, but I do. When I write I have to be a bit surprised myself. So my answers to you are in one way also an answer to myself and to anyone else interested. But to answer your question: No. You probably will not need any defenses towards someone you are not dependent of. But look at it from a correct angle: any person you think about, you are dependent of. Why? Because that other person is a thought/emotion in your mind, and everything in your mind you depend on. If you can begin to see that what you call another person in reality is just a mental image in your mind, and that every person you have any relationship with is just a relationship between your idea of yourself and your idea of the other person, i.e. that a personal relationship is only an internal relationship between an inner picture of 'myself' and 'the other', then you will also begin to see that what you call 'yourself' is just a mental image. Then you may begin to see that the real you is much vaster than images in your mind. And then there will be no dependence on anything, for you will have understood that mental images are only dependent between themselves, and that reality is dependent on everything, not just partial things. Total independence and total dependence are the same thing. /AL > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > Come down to simplicity. The question is not if everyone suffers > from > > > paranoia but: Will I have any defenses towards someone I am not > > > depending of ? > > > > > > Other way round: I want to be a respectable person, I want to be > > > respected by everyone which includes the beggar next street or a > > > housewife in the neighbourhood cleaning her windows. And so I > depend > > > on the respect of everyone. Will I be a defensive person or not ? > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > Yes, we want to be respectable persons and we want the respect from > > other people. But what is that really telling us? It is telling us > > that somehow our default state of being is not to be trusted. We are > > afraid that our own inner being somehow is flawed. This is a mild, > yet > > severe form of paranoia. > > > > This weak structure called the personal me has to be protected and > > defensive. And the defensiveness extends into our whole view of the > > world and ourselves. There may be a greater focus and awareness on > > persons who we depend on, but ultimately we depend on everybody, and > > all people are in the end related and can effect each other. > > > > As David Icke says: Humanity is a herd of sheep policing and > > controlling each other. We have become both the sheep and the sheep > dog. > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > > Isn't every lie a result of the need to control (read: fear)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > Hehe. No. A lie standing on its own is full control in the > > living > > > > > moment. A lie that has to be remembered as a personal act is > > partial > > > > > control, i.e. fear. > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you lie? > > > > What's your motive? > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > I lie to protect myself. But my goal is to lie out of the present > > > moment without fear. I then say something which may be true > > > (relatively speaking) or a lie. If it is a lie that comes out of > > > presence, then that lie is an act of creation, not an act out of > > fear. > > > > > > /AL > > > > Well, if this is what you wish to believe... > To be free from fear means to be free from the fear of telling lies. > Yes? No? > > > > /AL To be free from fear means to be free from fear of killing your wife? Yes? No? And if you're free from this fear, are you going to kill her, when she isn't nice? Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > > > Isn't every lie a result of the need to control (read: > fear)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > Hehe. No. A lie standing on its own is full control in the > > > living > > > > > > moment. A lie that has to be remembered as a personal act > is > > > partial > > > > > > control, i.e. fear. > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you lie? > > > > > What's your motive? > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > I lie to protect myself. But my goal is to lie out of the > present > > > > moment without fear. I then say something which may be true > > > > (relatively speaking) or a lie. If it is a lie that comes out of > > > > presence, then that lie is an act of creation, not an act out > of > > > fear. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > Well, if this is what you wish to believe... > > > > > To be free from fear means to be free from the fear of telling lies. > > Yes? No? > > > > > > > > /AL > > > To be free from fear means to be free from fear of killing your wife? > Yes? No? > And if you're free from this fear, are you going to kill her, when > she isn't nice? > > Len The thinking mind is always in conflict with itself. It thinks about other persons, but what it really thinks about is its own ideas of other persons. So violence starts as an inner process of thinking. And thinking starts from a state of fear. When there is no fear, there cannot be any violence. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > <lissbon2002> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > > > > Isn't every lie a result of the need to control (read: > > fear)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hehe. No. A lie standing on its own is full control in the > > > > living > > > > > > > moment. A lie that has to be remembered as a personal act > > is > > > > partial > > > > > > > control, i.e. fear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you lie? > > > > > > What's your motive? > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > I lie to protect myself. But my goal is to lie out of the > > present > > > > > moment without fear. I then say something which may be true > > > > > (relatively speaking) or a lie. If it is a lie that comes out of > > > > > presence, then that lie is an act of creation, not an act out > > of > > > > fear. > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > Well, if this is what you wish to believe... > > > > > > > > > To be free from fear means to be free from the fear of telling lies. > > > Yes? No? > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > To be free from fear means to be free from fear of killing your wife? > > Yes? No? > > And if you're free from this fear, are you going to kill her, when > > she isn't nice? > > > > Len > > The thinking mind is always in conflict with itself. It thinks about > other persons, but what it really thinks about is its own ideas of > other persons. So violence starts as an inner process of thinking. And > thinking starts from a state of fear. When there is no fear, there > cannot be any violence. > > /AL OK. How does the lie start then? ;-) Is there a need for a lie when there is no fear? Is lie a kind of violence? Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > > > <lissbon2002> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! > > > > > > > > > Isn't every lie a result of the need to control > (read: > > > fear)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hehe. No. A lie standing on its own is full control in > the > > > > > living > > > > > > > > moment. A lie that has to be remembered as a personal > act > > > is > > > > > partial > > > > > > > > control, i.e. fear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you lie? > > > > > > > What's your motive? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Len > > > > > > > > > > > > I lie to protect myself. But my goal is to lie out of the > > > present > > > > > > moment without fear. I then say something which may be true > > > > > > (relatively speaking) or a lie. If it is a lie that comes > out of > > > > > > presence, then that lie is an act of creation, not an act > out > > > of > > > > > fear. > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > Well, if this is what you wish to believe... > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be free from fear means to be free from the fear of telling > lies. > > > > Yes? No? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > To be free from fear means to be free from fear of killing your > wife? > > > Yes? No? > > > And if you're free from this fear, are you going to kill her, > when > > > she isn't nice? > > > > > > Len > > > > The thinking mind is always in conflict with itself. It thinks about > > other persons, but what it really thinks about is its own ideas of > > other persons. So violence starts as an inner process of thinking. > And > > thinking starts from a state of fear. When there is no fear, there > > cannot be any violence. > > > > /AL > > > OK. How does the lie start then? ;-) > Is there a need for a lie when there is no fear? > Is lie a kind of violence? > > Len Evolution is complexity unfolding. Sometimes lies can be needed. Sometimes even violence is needed. When there is need for going from one level of evolution to the next, some old patterns have to be broken up for new patterns to happen. Humanity is in such state of transformation I believe. There is much conflict in the world, and conflict between humans originates from within each human being. The thinking mind operates often from a " me " , a seemingly separate entity against the rest of the world. This separation is a fiction, it is not real, and because of this separation there is conflict. The conflict is therefore within a human being, in that the " me " and " the world " are thought constructs withing each " individual " mind. The conflict resulting from the separation between the " me " and " the world " is the root of fear. This separation is also the root of all violence, for violence is conflict manifested, i.e. fear manifested. People like J. Krishnamurti seem to have gone beyond the narrow prison of the separate " me " . I suspect that the next leap in human evolution is for all people to transcend this separation and painful conflict. The origin of a lie is often fear; we want to protect the separate " me " . That kind of lie is violence. In fact, all thinking originating from the idea of a separate " me " is violence. It's really sad, but what humanity suffers from is what Vernon Howard called the 'ruthless oppressor', the separate " me " . Negative feelings and thoughts come from this " me " - the thinking mind in conflict with itself. A lie is perhaps not needed when there is no fear, but if there is no fear, then lies can be used anyway as a form of entertainment or creation within the game of hide-and-seek. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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