Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 I have read things like ...I am THAT, Self is ...all, I am Self, everything is ...inside me and ....the world happened to Me... ....and, then begin to wonder, ....why is that, this awareness where I can see no boundary, no limit, no separation is ...Only aware of the thoughts that happen to the individual called ...'x'? Why this ...'I am Self' and ...'Self is God', `Self is Infinite, eternal', `Brhaman is the Universe' and ...'Self is Brahmana' has no awareness of ...thoughts of any other person but `Arvind', Awareness of internals, Being of anything like a stone, a plant, a star, galaxy, sun, Planet ... Forget that, why doesn't even what any awareness of the internals of the cells of this very body ...? If I am Awareness, ....then, what is this Body? Is it just a thing ? .. .... ...... Even then, ...what is the connection between this thing and Awareness that is aware of it? Why this limitless awareness not aware of thoughts of any other person? I can See No difference between the Self-aware, thoughtless, limitless awareness and between what serves as background and is aware of thoughts when they arise ...? How, then, is there a limit in that awareness? What is the link between limitless awareness and limited mind? # Is it something like I am a tiny drop in the infinite ocean of awareness, consciousness, God, ...What Is? Because, I am attribute-less, because I am ...SAME ...as the infinite ocean thus I feel ONE ...and Infinite but, yet, am not really the ...entire ocean! ....and, maybe, there is the entire Ocean. Is this infinite ocean able to express itself in infinite drops of ...SAME ...What Is and even when I can not see any limit, I am still just a drop of the same ocean ... # ....and, again, what is Body? Even, if, I was drop, how am I linked with a Body .... # Am I the MIND that can SEE Awareness because it is made up of that and also SEE itself as in its core it is ....Awareness! ....or, am I the Awareness that can See Mind? In the first model, I can somewhat, understand the limitation, realization, enlightenment ... But, in the second model, where I am the Infinite Self, I wonder, ...why and how I am Aware of ...only this mind and this thought ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > I have read things like ...I am THAT, Self is ...all, I am Self, > everything is ...inside me and ....the world happened to Me... > > > ...and, then begin to wonder, > > ...why is that, this awareness where I can see no boundary, no limit, > no separation is ...Only aware of the thoughts that happen to the > individual called ...'x'? > > Why this ...'I am Self' and ...'Self is God', `Self is Infinite, > eternal', `Brhaman is the Universe' and ...'Self is Brahmana' has no > awareness of ...thoughts of any other person but `Arvind', Awareness > of internals, Being of anything like a stone, a plant, a star, > galaxy, sun, Planet ... > > > Forget that, why doesn't even what any awareness of the internals of > the cells of this very body ...? > > If I am Awareness, > ...then, what is this Body? > > Is it just a thing ? > > . > ... > ..... > > Even then, ...what is the connection between this thing and Awareness > that is aware of it? > > Why this limitless awareness not aware of thoughts of any other > person? I can See No difference between the Self-aware, thoughtless, > limitless awareness and between what serves as background and is > aware of thoughts when they arise ...? > > How, then, is there a limit in that awareness? > > What is the link between limitless awareness and limited mind? > > > > # > > Is it something like I am a tiny drop in the infinite ocean of > awareness, consciousness, God, ...What Is? > > Because, I am attribute-less, because I am ...SAME ...as the infinite > ocean thus I feel ONE ...and Infinite but, yet, am not really > the ...entire ocean! > > ...and, maybe, there is the entire Ocean. > > Is this infinite ocean able to express itself in infinite drops > of ...SAME ...What Is and even when I can not see any limit, I am > still just a drop of the same ocean ... > > > # > > ...and, again, what is Body? > > Even, if, I was drop, how am I linked with a Body .... > > > # > > Am I the MIND that can SEE Awareness because it is made up of that > and also SEE itself as in its core it is ....Awareness! > > ...or, am I the Awareness that can See Mind? > > In the first model, I can somewhat, understand the limitation, > realization, enlightenment ... > > But, in the second model, where I am the Infinite Self, I > wonder, ...why and how I am Aware of ...only this mind and this > thought ... Hi Adithya, The body is a structure of precisely coordinated information, not separate from the whole web of information. This web we can call the Matrix of complexity, an infinite 'computer' program observed by awareness. Every cell in the human body is a holographic representation of the individual and also the whole Kosmos (to use Ken Wilber's definition). /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 ===== Hi Adithya, The body is a structure of precisely coordinated information, not separate from the whole web of information. This web we can call the Matrix of complexity, an infinite 'computer' program observed by awareness. Every cell in the human body is a holographic representation of the individual and also the whole Kosmos (to use Ken Wilber's definition). /AL ====== Thanks, Anders! However, it seems like a Concept that I have NO DIRECT way of verifying. All I can do with it is, ...either BLINDLY believe it or Not. There are many, many such Concepts in many, many books written by many, many authors in may traditions and religions. I am looking for something like: Boil the water – See the Vapor. Keep witnessing – See the thoughts disappear. Wake up in the Morning – See, there is still NO ...I am this Body. Go to the root of `I' thought – See it is .... With warm regards, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > ===== > > Hi Adithya, > > The body is a structure of precisely coordinated information, not > separate from the whole web of information. This web we can call the > Matrix of complexity, an infinite 'computer' program observed by > awareness. Every cell in the human body is a holographic > representation of the individual and also the whole Kosmos (to use Ken > Wilber's definition). > > /AL > > ====== > > > Thanks, Anders! > > However, it seems like a Concept that I have NO DIRECT way of > verifying. All I can do with it is, ...either BLINDLY believe it or > Not. > > There are many, many such Concepts in many, many books written by > many, many authors in may traditions and religions. > > > I am looking for something like: > > Boil the water – See the Vapor. > > Keep witnessing – See the thoughts disappear. > > Wake up in the Morning – See, there is still NO ...I am this Body. > > Go to the root of `I' thought – See it is .... > > > > With warm regards, > ac. Objects are final yet still ever changing. Reality as a whole is final yet still ever changing. In this lies liberation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 ==== Objects are final yet still ever changing. Reality as a whole is final yet still ever changing. In this lies LIBERATION. ==== Thanks, Anders! In this thread, ...I am not looking for " liberation " or how to get it. I am looking for answers, explanations to few questions, ...that I asked. Think of a physicist trying to examine ...matter, energy, ...Gravity for an Instance. Think of a biologist trying to understand ...Bacteria. Think of psychoanalyst trying to analyze ...thinking. .. .... ...... Think of Buddha trying to understand or explain ...Suffering. ...... .... .. Think of an Infant examining thumb attached to the infant Body ! With warm regards, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Since, I haven't received much in terms of answers to the questions that I thought were quite natural and elementary. ....and, possibly might have arisen in many people before making, believing or accepting assertions like ...I am Self. I am Infinite. I am the Universe ... So, let us try to approach a possible explanation from another direction: There is No Brain-Dead person has ever recorded to be living ... Even under deep sleep, the brain is seen to be active and aware and able to direct functions as and when necessary, ...such as creating fearful dreams to wake up the body if threatening conditioning such as difficulty breathing, lack of oxygen is encountered. The most basic, the most Elementary function of the brain is ...Awareness! Awareness is required to know anything like ...boundary, size, limit, identification, me, other ... ....but awareness itself has NO intrinsic ...size, boundary, limits or any other attributes. Awareness is required to know ...all attributes. But awareness itself can be nothing but just Plan ...Awareness! In reality, we experience everything including all sight, sound, visions, smell just ...because of brain. ....just INSIDE the brain! All of them are just some signals inside the brain! Even the image of a distant star, galaxies, ...the sky actually is formed INSIDE the brain. When, you are focused on those objects, ...they look outside. ....but, when you focus on the Background, ...in which image is `actually' formed, ...they " APPEAR " INSIDE ! ....resulting in some " .... " shouting, ...the Universe is INSIDE Me!~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 I am Body, ...itself is an effort. ....the effort of Brain !~ Brain is " really " Not the body. But, brain is bale to conjure that idea by repeat, practice and focus. And, brain can easily convince itself of being anything it wants. After all, ...there is no one else to question it. It is the one coming with the idea of " I am this " as well as the FINAL ARBITRATER of its Validity. Strong focus and it gets done. There are some people who focus on a stone, a plant, a flower and convince themselves, ...that they have experienced `flower consciousness'. Some fools go even further, and convince themselves, ...they are Jesus, Krishna, Shiva, ....Elvis, .... There are enough lunatics in madhouses convinced that they are ...president, prime minister, .... Enough focus and practice and the brain can convince itself of anything. After all, ...it is the FINAL JUDGE !~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > ==== > > Objects are final yet still ever changing. Reality as a whole is > final yet still ever changing. > > In this lies LIBERATION. > > ==== > > Thanks, Anders! > > In this thread, ...I am not looking for " liberation " or how to get it. > > I am looking for answers, explanations to few questions, ...that I > asked. > > > Think of a physicist trying to examine ...matter, energy, ...Gravity > for an Instance. > > Think of a biologist trying to understand ...Bacteria. > > Think of psychoanalyst trying to analyze ...thinking. > > . > ... > ..... > > Think of Buddha trying to understand or explain ...Suffering. > > ..... > ... > . > > Think of an Infant examining thumb attached to the infant Body ! > > > With warm regards, > ac. Understanding _is_ liberation. The 'aha'-feeling we get when suddenly understanding something is a hint of that. But we must also recognize the limitation of the intellect. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 The feeling of the solidity of the body is generated by the brain by constantly sending and receiving signals from different organs. More frequent and denser the signals, ...more solid the body feels. Mediation is a way to relax the brain, to put it at rest, ...to reduce and even eliminate the brain's communication with rest of the body. The brain is the one which is doing that. Again, with its will, determination, practice it can do that. There is No one to oppose it. As the brain start relaxing, start communicating with rest of the body less and less ... ....the body start to `feel' Disappearing, ...dissolving. Even not Being there at ...ALL! That is Death of ...I am Body !~ Same thing happens in Deep Sleep, ...although Involuntarily !~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > Since, I haven't received much in terms of answers to the questions > that I thought were quite natural and elementary. > > ...and, possibly might have arisen in many people before making, > believing or accepting assertions like ...I am Self. I am Infinite. I > am the Universe ... > > > So, let us try to approach a possible explanation from another > direction: > > There is No Brain-Dead person has ever recorded to be living ... > > Even under deep sleep, the brain is seen to be active and aware and > able to direct functions as and when necessary, ...such as creating > fearful dreams to wake up the body if threatening conditioning such > as difficulty breathing, lack of oxygen is encountered. > > > The most basic, the most Elementary function of the brain > is ...Awareness! > > Awareness is required to know anything like ...boundary, size, limit, > identification, me, other ... > > ...but awareness itself has NO intrinsic ...size, boundary, limits or > any other attributes. > > Awareness is required to know ...all attributes. > > But awareness itself can be nothing but just Plain ...Awareness! **** The sense of time, the beginning and end, death and birth requires ...Memory. But, awareness precedes memory. Awareness serves as the background, the base for memory and ...as such, memory can NOT have any trace of the beginning or end of Awareness ! This makes Awareness feel eternal no matter what the Reality!~ *** > > > > In reality, we experience everything including all sight, sound, > visions, smell just ...because of brain. > ...just INSIDE the brain! > > All of them are just some signals inside the brain! > > Even the image of a distant star, galaxies, ...the sky actually is > formed INSIDE the brain. > > > When, you are focused on those objects, ...they look outside. > ...but, when you focus on the Background, ...in which image > is `actually' formed, ...they " APPEAR " INSIDE ! > > ...resulting in some " .... " shouting, ...the Universe is INSIDE Me! ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Noise is brain trying to work, thinking too many things. Focus, concentration is brain working, thinking ...one thing. Peace, relaxation is brain doing ...Nothing !~ Nothing other than the core, essential life-saving functions that it might need to perform. Stress is the brain's attempt to drive body from a situation or driver TO ...a desired situation. End of desire, ...acceptance of " what is " is the End of Stress ! The brain has uprooted its self-created need ...to Do. Now, it is ...totally Relaxed. ....at peace. ....at ease. Resting in ...itself. It feels ...NO ...Need. Not feeling any need ...is end of all stress. it is ...contentment. Contentment is ...Happiness. # Joy is content brain ...full of energy. Presence is ...Free Awareness available to perceive ...anything. Connectedness, oneness, LOVE is brain ...NOT working continuously working with, ... " I am this " , " I am this body " . It is the brain having ...NO ...Self-identification! As a result, whatever it perceives appears as ...ITSELF ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 When it perceives NO thing, ...it gets no-formed, non-object feeling of ...Full Emptiness !~ Devoid of any object, ...yet, completely Full!~ .. .... ...... Deeper than it is ...I AM. No what, no which, no how, no where, ....not THIS, NOT THAT!~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 This No Effort stage has great ease, relaxation and peace .. It has great Charm. Some go even as far as to sacrifice job, society and everything else that requires ...Effort, Work. Some even prefer to sit in caves, to making brain work more than what they feel necessary. Some of them call themselves ...Enlightened !~ It is simply a brain able to ...NOT Work !~ Mediation that is now ...'default', natural state rather than a practice. Deep Sleep that now pervades ...waking hours. Relaxation, peace, joy, happiness are just natural, automatic and ...quite `logical' rewards !~ # Brain stresses the body and everything else so that it can keep pushing it to achieve ...its `goal'. It keeps working so that it remembers it goal, know what it needs to do and direct everything, ...ALL the TIME accordingly! It resents `present', `what is' because it has to achieve a `goal' which is Not Same as ...'what is' in its present form. Desire drops, ...so does the `need', ....so does the `goal', ....so does the struggle, the fight, the conflict, the stress, dissatisfaction . No fight with " what is " , as there is no specific expectation from it! ....and, that Ends, which Buddha called ~~~~Suffering ! ....the End of ... Dukha !~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 ....but, even after all this Brain is just ...a brain !~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Many things that seem quite difficult to explain otherwise, seem logical when trying to look from the angle of brain. What if, ----- I AM ...THE BRAIN ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 [.......] > Understanding _is_ liberation. The 'aha'-feeling we get when suddenly > understanding something is a hint of that. But we must also recognize > the limitation of the intellect. > > /AL Can intellect know its `own' boundary ? ....or, can it ONLY believe, assume and accept, something as its Boundary !~ Wouldn't accepting a Limit `possibly' Too Soon ... " which, might ALWAYS be the case if it can Not really know its boundary " create a limit where in reality it didn't have a Limit, and thus end a `real' possibility and effort !~ Should intellect " really " do anything other than: Try and succeed ... Try and fail ... ....and, then Try Again until Successful, maybe, ...in slightly different way, ...maybe, slightly different thing !~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > This No Effort stage has great ease, relaxation and peace .. > > It has great Charm. > > > Some go even as far as to sacrifice job, society and everything else > that requires ...Effort, Work. > > Some even prefer to sit in caves, to making brain work more than what > they feel necessary. > > > Some of them call themselves ...Enlightened !~ > > It is simply a brain able to ...NOT Work !~ > > Mediation that is now ...'default', natural state rather than a > practice. > > Deep Sleep that now pervades ...waking hours. > > > Relaxation, peace, joy, happiness are just natural, automatic > and ...quite `logical' rewards !~ > > # > > Brain stresses the body and everything else so that it can keep > pushing it to achieve ...its `goal'. > > It keeps working so that it remembers it goal, know what it needs to > do and direct everything, ...ALL the TIME accordingly! > > It resents `present', `what is' because it has to achieve a `goal' > which is Not Same as ...'what is' in its present form. > > Desire drops, ...so does the `need', > ...so does the `goal', > ...so does the struggle, the fight, the conflict, the stress, > dissatisfaction . > > No fight with " what is " , as there is no specific expectation from it! > > > ...and, that Ends, which Buddha called ~~~~Suffering ! > ...the End of ... Dukha !~ Sitting in a cave feeling bliss could perhaps be a very nice experience. However, limitless being is so much more capable than that, so it will manifest great diversity, art and entertainment in the form of form - in the form of adventures in the world of manifestation. A cave is also a form, a manifestation. Yet reality can produce so much more interesting experiences than cave sitting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > [.......] > > > > Understanding _is_ liberation. The 'aha'-feeling we get when > suddenly > > understanding something is a hint of that. But we must also > recognize > > the limitation of the intellect. > > > > /AL > > > Can intellect know its `own' boundary ? Yes, not by itself, but then again it is never by itself, the field of emotions and feeling sensations will guide you. > > ...or, can it ONLY believe, assume and accept, something as its > Boundary !~ > > > Wouldn't accepting a Limit `possibly' Too Soon ... " which, might > ALWAYS be the case if it can Not really know its boundary " create a > limit where in reality it didn't have a Limit, and thus end a `real' > possibility and effort !~ > > Should intellect " really " do anything other than: > > Try and succeed ... > > Try and fail ... > > ...and, then Try Again until Successful, > > maybe, ...in slightly different way, > ...maybe, slightly different thing !~ The intellect must become fused with totaliy, with spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > The feeling of the solidity of the body is generated by the brain by > constantly sending and receiving signals from different organs. More > frequent and denser the signals, ...more solid the body feels. > > > Mediation is a way to relax the brain, to put it at rest, ...to > reduce and even eliminate the brain's communication with rest of the > body. > > The brain is the one which is doing that. Again, with its will, > determination, practice it can do that. There is No one to oppose it. > > As the brain start relaxing, start communicating with rest of the > body less and less ... > > ...the body start to `feel' Disappearing, ...dissolving. > > > Even not Being there at ...ALL! > > That is Death of ...I am Body !~ > > Same thing happens in Deep Sleep, ...although Involuntarily !~ ****** ....and, that is why, Surrender works so wonderfully whereas, ...ANY Effort Does Not !~ That's why to the people who are TRULY Desperate, ...even willing to give up their Life, ...the Liberation comes in an instant ! Whereas, ...to people who don' feel the Urgency, don't yet have that Courage as they learn to give up and Relax more. Trick is ...the Brain STOPPING, Only performing what is Minimum life-sustaining functions and ...NOTHING else. That relaxes the brain, ....that releases the Body, that Destroys the Image of Body. That ends ... .....I am Body !~ .. .... ...... An effort, any effort, ...simply gives Mind One More thing to Do and it doesn't let it relax, slow down, ..or Stop. It works Against ...Liberation ! It only strengthens the ties, rather than breaking it ... ...... .... .. However, some go slowly, in series, ....Brain does only one thing such as recite a mantra, a prayer in place of numerous that it was doing Before. That relaxes it a bit, ....and, the moment that Too is Let Go .. ....the Freedom Arrives !~ ******* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > The feeling of the solidity of the body is generated by the brain > by > > constantly sending and receiving signals from different organs. > More > > frequent and denser the signals, ...more solid the body feels. > > > > > > Mediation is a way to relax the brain, to put it at rest, ...to > > reduce and even eliminate the brain's communication with rest of > the > > body. > > > > The brain is the one which is doing that. Again, with its will, > > determination, practice it can do that. There is No one to oppose > it. > > > > As the brain start relaxing, start communicating with rest of the > > body less and less ... > > > > ...the body start to `feel' Disappearing, ...dissolving. > > > > > > Even not Being there at ...ALL! > > > > That is Death of ...I am Body !~ > > > > Same thing happens in Deep Sleep, ...although Involuntarily !~ > > > ****** > > ...and, that is why, Surrender works so wonderfully whereas, ...ANY > Effort Does Not !~ > > That's why to the people who are TRULY Desperate, ...even willing to > give up their Life, ...the Liberation comes in an instant ! > Whereas, ...to people who don' feel the Urgency, don't yet have that > Courage as they learn to give up and Relax more. > > Trick is ...the Brain STOPPING, > Only performing what is Minimum life-sustaining functions > and ...NOTHING else. > > That relaxes the brain, > ...that releases the Body, > that Destroys the Image of Body. > > That ends ... > > ....I am Body !~ > > . > ... > ..... > > An effort, any effort, ...simply gives Mind One More thing to Do and > it doesn't let it relax, slow down, ..or Stop. > > It works Against ...Liberation ! > > It only strengthens the ties, rather than breaking it ... > > ..... > ... > . > > However, some go slowly, in series, > ...Brain does only one thing such as recite a mantra, a prayer in > place of numerous that it was doing Before. > > That relaxes it a bit, > ...and, the moment that Too is Let Go .. > > ...the Freedom Arrives !~ > > > ******* Well said. One can think that repeating a mantra is a stupid activitity. However, it may be that thinking is the stupid activity. The human intellect believs itself necessary, but is it? Is it the human intellect that holds the atoms of the universe together, i.e. is the human intellect responsible for _any_ actions, or is it itself a result of actions beyond " its " control? /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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