Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Isn't seeing fear as an enemy and something to overcome, fear > > > > itself?! How will fear free itself from fear? > > > > > > > > JOe > > > > > > Seeing fear to the very core is the beginning of true understanding. > > > > Nice slogan. > > > > What if it's not true? > > > > Show me this " core " and " understanding " . Sounds like something that > > was picked up from the Nondual Flea Market. > > > > Joe > > Simply feel the unease in the core of your being. You may take that > state as being natural, as most people do, but in reality it is the > incarnation of a nightmare. > > /AL Okay. What shall we do about this unease and nightmare? Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Isn't seeing fear as an enemy and something to overcome, fear > > > > > itself?! How will fear free itself from fear? > > > > > > > > > > JOe > > > > > > > > Seeing fear to the very core is the beginning of true > understanding. > > > > > > Nice slogan. > > > > > > What if it's not true? > > > > > > Show me this " core " and " understanding " . Sounds like something > that > > > was picked up from the Nondual Flea Market. > > > > > > Joe > > > > Simply feel the unease in the core of your being. You may take that > > state as being natural, as most people do, but in reality it is the > > incarnation of a nightmare. > > > > /AL > > Okay. What shall we do about this unease and nightmare? > > Joe Recognize it to be a nightmare and stop pretending one is living an ordinary and fulfilled life. We cannot lie to ourselves, fortenately. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Okay. What shall we do about this unease and nightmare? > > > > Joe > > Recognize it to be a nightmare and stop pretending one is living an > ordinary and fulfilled life. We cannot lie to ourselves, fortenately. > > /AL Okay. Then what? We stop lieing to ourselves. Instead of saying my life is great and I'm happy, I realize I'm scared of everything. I realize my religion is a farce, my spirituality a power trip. I realize I'm always trying to fit this 'what is' into my conceptions of what it should be. When it's seen that such a movement creates stress and a feeling of separation, it may stop. Then new stories may come up... stories about it's all fear, I'm nothing but fear... or maybe we adopt the no-one here, no-separation story -- " it's all just peachy. " What do you propose one does about this? Anything? Or does any belief and any movement just create more waves in the pond? Or do we just keep telling ourselves " I'm just fear. We're all just fear. It's pathetic. " ? Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > Okay. What shall we do about this unease and nightmare? > > > > > > Joe > > > > Recognize it to be a nightmare and stop pretending one is living an > > ordinary and fulfilled life. We cannot lie to ourselves, > fortenately. > > > > /AL > > Okay. Then what? We stop lieing to ourselves. Instead of saying my > life is great and I'm happy, I realize I'm scared of everything. I > realize my religion is a farce, my spirituality a power trip. I > realize I'm always trying to fit this 'what is' into my conceptions > of what it should be. When it's seen that such a movement creates > stress and a feeling of separation, it may stop. Then new stories may > come up... stories about it's all fear, I'm nothing but fear... or > maybe we adopt the no-one here, no-separation story -- " it's all just > peachy. " > > What do you propose one does about this? Anything? Or does any belief > and any movement just create more waves in the pond? > > Or do we just keep telling ourselves " I'm just fear. We're all just > fear. It's pathetic. " ? > > Joe For some reason you equate no separation with everything being peachy. And you said Anders talking about cells was absurd? As for what you do at the point that you recognize that you are fear, you are clutching, you are grasping, and nothing but that activity ... You see it through, all the way through. If you are clear that is. If you are clear, there is no alternative route. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > For some reason you equate no separation with everything being > peachy. No. I was referring to someone who's adopted that as a story. Often those two will go together. I don't think they go together at all. > And you said Anders talking about cells was absurd? It's not absurd to think all cells are fearful? > > As for what you do at the point that you recognize > that you are fear, you are clutching, you are grasping, > and nothing but that activity ... > You see it through, all the way through. > If you are clear that is. > If you are clear, there is no alternative route. > > -- Dan And then you can stop telling stories about it. I could be way off, but it seems some people take this (what you wrote above) as a new kind of mythology, a new story about themselves. What happens when that story doesn't hold weight? It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. All stories can be seen as such when they arise. Then, there is no need going all the way through and there is no alternative route. All routes are equally valid and equally delusional. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > wrote: > > > > > For some reason you equate no separation with everything being > > peachy. > > > No. I was referring to someone who's adopted that as a story. Often > those two will go together. I don't think they go together at all. > > > And you said Anders talking about cells was absurd? > > It's not absurd to think all cells are fearful? > > > > > As for what you do at the point that you recognize > > that you are fear, you are clutching, you are grasping, > > and nothing but that activity ... > > You see it through, all the way through. > > If you are clear that is. > > If you are clear, there is no alternative route. > > > > -- Dan > > And then you can stop telling stories about it. I could be way off, > but it seems some people take this (what you wrote above) as a new > kind of mythology, a new story about themselves. > > What happens when that story doesn't hold weight? > > It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. All > stories can be seen as such when they arise. Then, there is no need > going all the way through and there is no alternative route. All > routes are equally valid and equally delusional. > > Joe Dear AL, I think, perhaps, the first and most basic question to ask is: ---- what is `wrong' with Fear ? ---- Is fear just plain `wrong', `bad', `useless' or `waste' or does it serve some useful and necessary function? ....what is the `useful' and `meaningful' purpose, ...if any? after answering, these two, you can then ask: ---- can anything TRULY `wasteful' and `useless' survive Evolution? ....so, why is that, we see `fear' present in almost every kind of living organism? Then, ....doesn't the question again come to not worrying about getting rid of ...fear but to merely stop being overly and always ruled by it ...? regards, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > wrote: > > > > > For some reason you equate no separation with everything being > > peachy. > > > No. I was referring to someone who's adopted that as a story. Often > those two will go together. I don't think they go together at all. > > > And you said Anders talking about cells was absurd? > > It's not absurd to think all cells are fearful? That's not exactly what he said. But I'll let him speak for himself. > > As for what you do at the point that you recognize > > that you are fear, you are clutching, you are grasping, > > and nothing but that activity ... > > You see it through, all the way through. > > If you are clear that is. > > If you are clear, there is no alternative route. > > > > -- Dan > > And then you can stop telling stories about it. I could be way off, > but it seems some people take this (what you wrote above) as a new > kind of mythology, a new story about themselves. Yes, that can happen. > What happens when that story doesn't hold weight? What happens when nothing happens? > It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. All > stories can be seen as such when they arise. That's your story. :-) > Then, there is no need > going all the way through and there is no alternative route. All > routes are equally valid and equally delusional. It's not a route to take. Seeing it all the way through is complete in/as this timeless instant. Certainly, no story is involved, and unlike what you propose, there is no story arising which is seen as such. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. All > > stories can be seen as such when they arise. > > That's your story. :-) Damn straight, and I'm keepin it! > > > Then, there is no need > > going all the way through and there is no alternative route. All > > routes are equally valid and equally delusional. > > It's not a route to take. Routes appear to appear. (How's that for a confusing statement?) The route appears as thought. > > Seeing it all the way through is complete in/as this timeless > instant. Yes. Any progress, route, technique is thought -- which seems to create me who will do something... or do nothing. > > Certainly, no story is involved, and unlike what you propose, > there is no story arising which is seen as such. Yes, and there's no " seeing it all the way through " either. ;-) Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > Okay. What shall we do about this unease and nightmare? > > > > > > Joe > > > > Recognize it to be a nightmare and stop pretending one is living an > > ordinary and fulfilled life. We cannot lie to ourselves, > fortenately. > > > > /AL > > Okay. Then what? We stop lieing to ourselves. Instead of saying my > life is great and I'm happy, I realize I'm scared of everything. I > realize my religion is a farce, my spirituality a power trip. I > realize I'm always trying to fit this 'what is' into my conceptions > of what it should be. When it's seen that such a movement creates > stress and a feeling of separation, it may stop. Then new stories may > come up... stories about it's all fear, I'm nothing but fear... or > maybe we adopt the no-one here, no-separation story -- " it's all just > peachy. " > > What do you propose one does about this? Anything? Or does any belief > and any movement just create more waves in the pond? > > Or do we just keep telling ourselves " I'm just fear. We're all just > fear. It's pathetic. " ? > > Joe Seeing fear is freeing it. Recognizing that one's anxiety, anger and frustration is an INNER conflict is the beginning of dissolving this conflict. Why would we torture ourselves? Is it the world that is against us, or is it our inner emotions that is against us. Why are we not fulfilled? The truth is that we are constantly fighting our inner mental windmills. That's really pathetic, isn't it? We call ourselves intelligent, but is it intelligent to be unfulfilled? /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > For some reason you equate no separation with everything being > > > peachy. > > > > > > No. I was referring to someone who's adopted that as a story. Often > > those two will go together. I don't think they go together at all. > > > > > And you said Anders talking about cells was absurd? > > > > It's not absurd to think all cells are fearful? > > > > > > > > As for what you do at the point that you recognize > > > that you are fear, you are clutching, you are grasping, > > > and nothing but that activity ... > > > You see it through, all the way through. > > > If you are clear that is. > > > If you are clear, there is no alternative route. > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > And then you can stop telling stories about it. I could be way off, > > but it seems some people take this (what you wrote above) as a new > > kind of mythology, a new story about themselves. > > > > What happens when that story doesn't hold weight? > > > > It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. All > > stories can be seen as such when they arise. Then, there is no need > > going all the way through and there is no alternative route. All > > routes are equally valid and equally delusional. > > > > Joe > > > Dear AL, > > I think, perhaps, the first and most basic question to ask is: > > ---- what is `wrong' with Fear ? A child is not as mature as an adult, yet we do not say that a child is 'wrong'. To live in fear is not as mature as living in harmony. > > ---- Is fear just plain `wrong', `bad', `useless' or `waste' or does > it serve some useful and necessary function? Fear has a protecting function that hinders the immature mind from running away too far away into its inner map of desires. Nothing wrong with desires per se, but they have no newness in them, except general curiosity which is a bridge between old structures and newness. > > ...what is the `useful' and `meaningful' purpose, ...if any? Feeling good in body and mind is the purpose of life. > > > after answering, these two, you can then ask: > > ---- can anything TRULY `wasteful' and `useless' survive Evolution? > > ...so, why is that, we see `fear' present in almost every kind of > living organism? Humanity is still in a primitive state. This planet has not been born yet. (this is perhaps only wishful thinking I have) :-) > > > Then, > > ...doesn't the question again come to not worrying about getting rid > of ...fear but to merely stop being overly and always ruled by it ...? > > > regards, > ac. Sages often say that when fear falls away then we fall away, the sense of being a separate individual falls away. Maybe fear and the idea of being a separate individual go together. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > For some reason you equate no separation with everything being > > > > peachy. > > > > > > > > > No. I was referring to someone who's adopted that as a story. Often > > > those two will go together. I don't think they go together at all. > > > > > > > And you said Anders talking about cells was absurd? > > > > > > It's not absurd to think all cells are fearful? > > > > > > > > > > > As for what you do at the point that you recognize > > > > that you are fear, you are clutching, you are grasping, > > > > and nothing but that activity ... > > > > You see it through, all the way through. > > > > If you are clear that is. > > > > If you are clear, there is no alternative route. > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > And then you can stop telling stories about it. I could be way off, > > > but it seems some people take this (what you wrote above) as a new > > > kind of mythology, a new story about themselves. > > > > > > What happens when that story doesn't hold weight? > > > > > > It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. All > > > stories can be seen as such when they arise. Then, there is no need > > > going all the way through and there is no alternative route. All > > > routes are equally valid and equally delusional. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > Dear AL, > > > > I think, perhaps, the first and most basic question to ask is: > > > > ---- what is `wrong' with Fear ? > > A child is not as mature as an adult, yet we do not say that a child > is 'wrong'. To live in fear is not as mature as living in harmony. Isn't it kind of difficult to leave in harmony with viruses, bacterias, mosquitoes, tigers, lions ? Isn't some conflict already built-in? > > > > > ---- Is fear just plain `wrong', `bad', `useless' or `waste' or does > > it serve some useful and necessary function? > > Fear has a protecting function Doesn't fear in a way, also enables invention of fire-arms, strong houses, living in group, fighting against wild-animals together and possibly enabling human dominance over the planet. Could human species have really survived for long time if it didn't have some protection mechanism in place due to some fear ...? >that hinders the immature mind from > running away too far away into its inner map of desires. Nothing wrong > with desires per se, but they have no newness in them, except general > curiosity which is a bridge between old structures and newness. > > > > > ...what is the `useful' and `meaningful' purpose, ...if any? > > Feeling good in body and mind is the purpose of life. > > > > > > > after answering, these two, you can then ask: > > > > ---- can anything TRULY `wasteful' and `useless' survive Evolution? > > > > ...so, why is that, we see `fear' present in almost every kind of > > living organism? > > Humanity is still in a primitive state. This planet has not been born > yet. (this is perhaps only wishful thinking I have) :-) > > > > > > > Then, > > > > ...doesn't the question again come to not worrying about getting rid > > of ...fear but to merely stop being overly and always ruled by it ...? > > > > > > regards, > > ac. > > Sages often say that when fear falls away then we fall away, the sense > of being a separate individual falls away. Maybe fear and the idea of > being a separate individual go together. If an angry lion suddenly appear in front of a sage, does the sage get afraid or Not? If somebody fires a gunshot in front of a sage, does the sage get afraid or Not? Question is, ...does fear has some built-in, inherent biological function or is it only psychological. > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > wrote: > > > > It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. All > > > stories can be seen as such when they arise. > > > > That's your story. :-) > > Damn straight, and I'm keepin it! you mean, you don't see it as a story, Joe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For some reason you equate no separation with everything > being > > > > > peachy. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. I was referring to someone who's adopted that as a story. > Often > > > > those two will go together. I don't think they go together at > all. > > > > > > > > > And you said Anders talking about cells was absurd? > > > > > > > > It's not absurd to think all cells are fearful? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for what you do at the point that you recognize > > > > > that you are fear, you are clutching, you are grasping, > > > > > and nothing but that activity ... > > > > > You see it through, all the way through. > > > > > If you are clear that is. > > > > > If you are clear, there is no alternative route. > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > And then you can stop telling stories about it. I could be way > off, > > > > but it seems some people take this (what you wrote above) as a > new > > > > kind of mythology, a new story about themselves. > > > > > > > > What happens when that story doesn't hold weight? > > > > > > > > It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. All > > > > stories can be seen as such when they arise. Then, there is no > need > > > > going all the way through and there is no alternative route. > All > > > > routes are equally valid and equally delusional. > > > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > Dear AL, > > > > > > I think, perhaps, the first and most basic question to ask is: > > > > > > ---- what is `wrong' with Fear ? > > > > A child is not as mature as an adult, yet we do not say that a child > > is 'wrong'. To live in fear is not as mature as living in harmony. > > Isn't it kind of difficult to leave in harmony with viruses, > bacterias, mosquitoes, tigers, lions ? > > Isn't some conflict already built-in? Only in the phase of life in severe transformation I believe. Maybe we as humanity are beginning to step out of million of years of conditioning. When there is fear in the human body there is a contraction in body and mind. The complex web of the physical human body and the mind is not working in harmony. I feel this very clearly within myself, and I see the same protective shell of fear it in virtually every other person. Some sages have a different kind of appearance. They seem to be in a very much more harmonious state of being. That makes me green with envy! ;-) > > > > > > > > > ---- Is fear just plain `wrong', `bad', `useless' or `waste' or > does > > > it serve some useful and necessary function? > > > > Fear has a protecting function > > > Doesn't fear in a way, also enables invention of fire-arms, strong > houses, living in group, fighting against wild-animals together and > possibly enabling human dominance over the planet. > > Could human species have really survived for long time if it didn't > have some protection mechanism in place due to some fear ...? That true. I don't believe fear and violence is the " devil " but rather a necessary step in human evolution. I hope with all my heart that humanity will begin to move in another direction where the guide of fear is no longer predominant. Ken Wilber talks about different stages in human evolution and he talks a lot about an integral approach. Maybe we could also talk about an integral-integral approach, like mixing for example the teachings of Catherine Ingram with the theories of Ken Wilber. Maybe they should become a couple and work things out. > > > > >that hinders the immature mind from > > running away too far away into its inner map of desires. Nothing > wrong > > with desires per se, but they have no newness in them, except > general > > curiosity which is a bridge between old structures and newness. > > > > > > > > ...what is the `useful' and `meaningful' purpose, ...if any? > > > > Feeling good in body and mind is the purpose of life. > > > > > > > > > > > after answering, these two, you can then ask: > > > > > > ---- can anything TRULY `wasteful' and `useless' survive > Evolution? > > > > > > ...so, why is that, we see `fear' present in almost every kind > of > > > living organism? > > > > Humanity is still in a primitive state. This planet has not been > born > > yet. (this is perhaps only wishful thinking I have) :-) > > > > > > > > > > > Then, > > > > > > ...doesn't the question again come to not worrying about getting > rid > > > of ...fear but to merely stop being overly and always ruled by > it ...? > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > ac. > > > > Sages often say that when fear falls away then we fall away, the > sense > > of being a separate individual falls away. Maybe fear and the idea > of > > being a separate individual go together. > > > If an angry lion suddenly appear in front of a sage, does the sage > get afraid or Not? > > If somebody fires a gunshot in front of a sage, does the sage get > afraid or Not? > > Question is, ...does fear has some built-in, inherent biological > function or is it only psychological. I remember a scene told about from the Vietnam war. A group of monks walked right through a battle field and the soldiers on both sides stopped shooting. I don't know if I remember it correctly, but what I was thinking about was that maybe fear only fights fear. If someone is truly fearless, then a lion will perhaps be completely harmless, and a soldier will stop shooting. David Icke told that he as a child was terrified of dogs, and when he walked in a certain area with dogs where he frequently had to walk, the dogs jumped up at him barking. His friends, who were not afraid of dogs, could walk through the same area unmolested. Then he said: " See how bloody unlucky I am! You are not afraid of dogs, and I am terrified of them, and they are all at me. " What we send out, Icke says, we draw towards us. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 [..........] > > > Sages often say that when fear falls away then we fall away, the > > sense > > > of being a separate individual falls away. Maybe fear and the idea > > of > > > being a separate individual go together. > > > > > > If an angry lion suddenly appear in front of a sage, does the sage > > get afraid or Not? > > > > If somebody fires a gunshot in front of a sage, does the sage get > > afraid or Not? > > > > Question is, ...does fear has some built-in, inherent biological > > function or is it only psychological. > > I remember a scene told about from the Vietnam war. A group of monks > walked right through a battle field and the soldiers on both sides > stopped shooting. I don't know if I remember it correctly, but what I > was thinking about was that maybe fear only fights fear. If someone is > truly fearless, then a lion will perhaps be completely harmless, and a > soldier will stop shooting. David Icke told that he as a child was > terrified of dogs, and when he walked in a certain area with dogs > where he frequently had to walk, the dogs jumped up at him barking. > His friends, who were not afraid of dogs, could walk through the same > area unmolested. Then he said: " See how bloody unlucky I am! You are > not afraid of dogs, and I am terrified of them, and they are all at > me. " What we send out, Icke says, we draw towards us. > > /AL It might be quite simple, Anders. If an angry cat jumps on a 4 moth old child, ...would he get scared or Not ? if he does, ...do you think it is due to some elaborate separation- based psychological thinking or is it simply due to some built-in biological instincts ? ....is that built-in instinct useful and important or not ? What if, you fire a gunshot or any other loud intimidation sound in the close proximity of a 4 months old, ... would he get scared or Not ? .. .... ...... ....if these `instincts' are biologically built-in then, ...why a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and many other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dabo_now " <dscasta> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > wrote: > > > > > > It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. All > > > > stories can be seen as such when they arise. > > > > > > That's your story. :-) > > > > Damn straight, and I'm keepin it! > > > you mean, you don't see it as a story, Joe? Huh, what story?! It's a fact, man! And I'll fight to my death for it. :-) Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > [..........] > > > > > > Sages often say that when fear falls away then we fall away, > the > > > sense > > > > of being a separate individual falls away. Maybe fear and the > idea > > > of > > > > being a separate individual go together. > > > > > > > > > If an angry lion suddenly appear in front of a sage, does the > sage > > > get afraid or Not? > > > > > > If somebody fires a gunshot in front of a sage, does the sage get > > > afraid or Not? > > > > > > Question is, ...does fear has some built-in, inherent biological > > > function or is it only psychological. > > > > I remember a scene told about from the Vietnam war. A group of monks > > walked right through a battle field and the soldiers on both sides > > stopped shooting. I don't know if I remember it correctly, but what > I > > was thinking about was that maybe fear only fights fear. If someone > is > > truly fearless, then a lion will perhaps be completely harmless, > and a > > soldier will stop shooting. David Icke told that he as a child was > > terrified of dogs, and when he walked in a certain area with dogs > > where he frequently had to walk, the dogs jumped up at him barking. > > His friends, who were not afraid of dogs, could walk through the > same > > area unmolested. Then he said: " See how bloody unlucky I am! You are > > not afraid of dogs, and I am terrified of them, and they are all at > > me. " What we send out, Icke says, we draw towards us. > > > > /AL > > > > It might be quite simple, Anders. > > If an angry cat jumps on a 4 moth old child, ...would he get scared > or Not ? > > > if he does, ...do you think it is due to some elaborate separation- > based psychological thinking or is it simply due to some built-in > biological instincts ? > > ...is that built-in instinct useful and important or not ? > > > What if, you fire a gunshot or any other loud intimidation sound in > the close proximity of a 4 months old, ... would he get scared or > Not ? > > . > ... > ..... > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in then, ...why > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and many > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen for liberation to occur. A baby is born with a pain body, which is the collective human pain. I would say that a mutation in the heart must take place for the fearless state to flower (only a guess). /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 [ > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in then, ...why > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and many > > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen for > liberation to occur. ....and, Ramana said: if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be lost ! He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of Deep Sleep. Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? A baby is born with a pain body, which is the > collective human pain. I would say that a mutation in the heart must > take place for the fearless state to flower (only a guess). > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 [......] > > > > . > > ... > > ..... > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in then, ...why > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and many > > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen for > liberation to occur. ....and, Ramana said: if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be lost ! He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of Deep Sleep. Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > A baby is born with a pain body, which is the > collective human pain. I would say that a mutation in the heart must > take place for the fearless state to flower (only a guess). > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > [ > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in then, ...why > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and many > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen for > > liberation to occur. > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be lost ! > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of Deep > Sleep. > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source is infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. /AL > > > > > A baby is born with a pain body, which is the > > collective human pain. I would say that a mutation in the heart must > > take place for the fearless state to flower (only a guess). > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > [ > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in then, ...why > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and many > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen for > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be lost ! > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of Deep > > Sleep. > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source is > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / organism changes much " bilogically " or " physically " . After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened bodies having hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, effacting as well as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and all. We see existence of almsot all biological functions that can be observed. Don't we ? Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties then, need to instantly Vanish ...? > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > A baby is born with a pain body, which is the > > > collective human pain. I would say that a mutation in the heart must > > > take place for the fearless state to flower (only a guess). > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dabo_now " <dscasta> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > It stops being a story that applies to me or someone else. > All > > > > > stories can be seen as such when they arise. > > > > > > > > That's your story. :-) > > > > > > Damn straight, and I'm keepin it! > > > > > > you mean, you don't see it as a story, Joe? > > Huh, what story?! It's a fact, man! And I'll fight to my death for > it. :-) > > Joe i figured so - you don't see it as a story. what is now is more immediate than thought and precedes thought, without excluding thought. there is no time to think about it, let alone see the thought (which is nothing but reflecting back on your thoughts), recognize it as a story, ask what the story pertains to, and conclude there is no " me " to whom it pertains. the sense of " me " is more basic than that, and these cumbersome mental processes have nothing to do with it, as they are only a part of it - they cannot encompass it. the sense of a subject observing objects is the totality of my sensory perceptions, thoughts and emotions. it is ALL of who i am now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > [ > > > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in > then, ...why > > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and > many > > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen > for > > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be lost ! > > > > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of Deep > > > Sleep. > > > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a > > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source is > > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. > > Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / organism changes > much " bilogically " or " physically " . > > After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened bodies having > hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, effacting as well > as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and all. > > We see existence of almsot all biological functions that can be > observed. > > Don't we ? > > > Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties then, need to > instantly Vanish ...? > > Ramesh Balsekar talks about a final understanding that happens to a sage and that understanding is that no one is a doer, that although we are doing all kinds of things it is not any separate individual doing anything. Tony Parsons talks about clarity and he also says that no one is doing anything. But that makes me wonder: mustn't there be a change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system for this understanding to happen? /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Anders, You wrote: mustn't there be a change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system for this understanding to happen? And if you know what that change is then you, Anders the never ending doer and never ending thinker and endless babbler, will do that change, right ? ... ha ha ha ha Your mind is so heavily filled with numerous books, that you totally lost contact to that simple fact what fool you are. Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > [ > > > > > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in > > then, ...why > > > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > > > > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and > > many > > > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen > > for > > > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be lost ! > > > > > > > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of Deep > > > > Sleep. > > > > > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > > > > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a > > > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source is > > > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. > > > > Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / organism changes > > much " bilogically " or " physically " . > > > > After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened bodies having > > hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, effacting as well > > as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and all. > > > > We see existence of almsot all biological functions that can be > > observed. > > > > Don't we ? > > > > > > Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties then, need to > > instantly Vanish ...? > > > > > > Ramesh Balsekar talks about a final understanding that happens to a > sage and that understanding is that no one is a doer, that although we > are doing all kinds of things it is not any separate individual doing > anything. Tony Parsons talks about clarity and he also says that no > one is doing anything. But that makes me wonder: mustn't there be a > change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system for this > understanding to happen? > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Anders, > > You wrote: > mustn't there be a change in the electro-chemical makeup of the > nervous system for this understanding to happen? > > > And if you know what that change is then you, Anders the never > ending doer and never ending thinker and endless babbler, will do > that change, right ? ... ha ha ha ha > > Your mind is so heavily filled with numerous books, that you totally > lost contact to that simple fact what fool you are. > > Werner > Aren't we all endless doers? (Well, perhaps not Tony Parsons /AL > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > [ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in > > > then, ...why > > > > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " > different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him > and > > > many > > > > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other > humans ? > > > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must > happen > > > for > > > > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > > > > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be > lost ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of > Deep > > > > > Sleep. > > > > > > > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > > > > > > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a > > > > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source > is > > > > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. > > > > > > Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / organism > changes > > > much " bilogically " or " physically " . > > > > > > After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened bodies > having > > > hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, effacting as > well > > > as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and all. > > > > > > We see existence of almsot all biological functions that can be > > > observed. > > > > > > Don't we ? > > > > > > > > > Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties then, need > to > > > instantly Vanish ...? > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Balsekar talks about a final understanding that happens to a > > sage and that understanding is that no one is a doer, that although > we > > are doing all kinds of things it is not any separate individual > doing > > anything. Tony Parsons talks about clarity and he also says that no > > one is doing anything. But that makes me wonder: mustn't there be a > > change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system for this > > understanding to happen? > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Hi Anders, Some way you are right. My text was missing precision. When I wrote " you " then I meant " me " or " we " . Same with being a fool. But not about all those books which are the nightmare of your mind. You are getting more and more stupid, instead of intelligence there is more and more knowledge. Read what dabo_now wrote before. Can you understand what he/she wrote ? It was perfect. Nisargadatta/message/18559 Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Anders, > > > > You wrote: > > mustn't there be a change in the electro-chemical makeup of the > > nervous system for this understanding to happen? > > > > > > And if you know what that change is then you, Anders the never > > ending doer and never ending thinker and endless babbler, will do > > that change, right ? ... ha ha ha ha > > > > Your mind is so heavily filled with numerous books, that you totally > > lost contact to that simple fact what fool you are. > > > > Werner > > > > Aren't we all endless doers? (Well, perhaps not Tony Parsons > > /AL > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > [ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in > > > > then, ...why > > > > > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " > > different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him > > and > > > > many > > > > > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other > > humans ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must > > happen > > > > for > > > > > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > > > > > > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be > > lost ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of > > Deep > > > > > > Sleep. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > > > > > > > > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a > > > > > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source > > is > > > > > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. > > > > > > > > Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / organism > > changes > > > > much " bilogically " or " physically " . > > > > > > > > After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened bodies > > having > > > > hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, effacting as > > well > > > > as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and all. > > > > > > > > We see existence of almsot all biological functions that can be > > > > observed. > > > > > > > > Don't we ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties then, need > > to > > > > instantly Vanish ...? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Balsekar talks about a final understanding that happens to a > > > sage and that understanding is that no one is a doer, that although > > we > > > are doing all kinds of things it is not any separate individual > > doing > > > anything. Tony Parsons talks about clarity and he also says that no > > > one is doing anything. But that makes me wonder: mustn't there be a > > > change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system for this > > > understanding to happen? > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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