Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Hi Anders, > > Some way you are right. My text was missing precision. When I > wrote " you " then I meant " me " or " we " . Same with being a fool. But > not about all those books which are the nightmare of your mind. You > are getting more and more stupid, instead of intelligence there is > more and more knowledge. > > Read what dabo_now wrote before. Can you understand what he/she > wrote ? It was perfect. > > Nisargadatta/message/18559 > > Werner > You mean understand as collecting information, becoming more conditioned, having more internal authority collected as memory? /AL > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > You wrote: > > > mustn't there be a change in the electro-chemical makeup of the > > > nervous system for this understanding to happen? > > > > > > > > > And if you know what that change is then you, Anders the never > > > ending doer and never ending thinker and endless babbler, will do > > > that change, right ? ... ha ha ha ha > > > > > > Your mind is so heavily filled with numerous books, that you > totally > > > lost contact to that simple fact what fool you are. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > Aren't we all endless doers? (Well, perhaps not Tony Parsons > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in > > > > > then, ...why > > > > > > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " > > > different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, > him > > > and > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other > > > humans ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must > > > happen > > > > > for > > > > > > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also > be > > > lost ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state > of > > > Deep > > > > > > > Sleep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > > > > > > > > > > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea > of a > > > > > > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its > source > > > is > > > > > > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality > is. > > > > > > > > > > Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / organism > > > changes > > > > > much " bilogically " or " physically " . > > > > > > > > > > After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened bodies > > > having > > > > > hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, effacting > as > > > well > > > > > as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and all. > > > > > > > > > > We see existence of almsot all biological functions that can > be > > > > > observed. > > > > > > > > > > Don't we ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties then, > need > > > to > > > > > instantly Vanish ...? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Balsekar talks about a final understanding that happens > to a > > > > sage and that understanding is that no one is a doer, that > although > > > we > > > > are doing all kinds of things it is not any separate individual > > > doing > > > > anything. Tony Parsons talks about clarity and he also says > that no > > > > one is doing anything. But that makes me wonder: mustn't there > be a > > > > change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system for > this > > > > understanding to happen? > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Anders, You asked: You mean understand as collecting information, becoming more conditioned, having more internal authority collected as memory? This question already is the result of that stupidity and reflects that stupidity and you cannot see it, but everyone can see it who cares about the treasures of his being, of intelligence. You lost sight of that treasure, Anders. The more knowledge you gather the more you lose contact to your natural intelligence. All your rational explanation you produce are in the most cases the echo of your memory's ping pong or simplified: Bla bla bla. But you don't see that. Your alarm bells are no longer ringing. That wonderful tip Pete gave you, to listen for a feew months to the sound of traffic, you never will do, even for 5 minutes. The intellectual toys you find in books are much more fascinating. You are like a child mistaking glass perls as real gems. Werner Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > Some way you are right. My text was missing precision. When I > > wrote " you " then I meant " me " or " we " . Same with being a fool. But > > not about all those books which are the nightmare of your mind. You > > are getting more and more stupid, instead of intelligence there is > > more and more knowledge. > > > > Read what dabo_now wrote before. Can you understand what he/she > > wrote ? It was perfect. > > > > Nisargadatta/message/18559 > > > > Werner > > > > You mean understand as collecting information, becoming more > conditioned, having more internal authority collected as memory? > > /AL > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > You wrote: > > > > mustn't there be a change in the electro-chemical makeup of the > > > > nervous system for this understanding to happen? > > > > > > > > > > > > And if you know what that change is then you, Anders the never > > > > ending doer and never ending thinker and endless babbler, will do > > > > that change, right ? ... ha ha ha ha > > > > > > > > Your mind is so heavily filled with numerous books, that you > > totally > > > > lost contact to that simple fact what fool you are. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > Aren't we all endless doers? (Well, perhaps not Tony Parsons > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in > > > > > > then, ...why > > > > > > > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " > > > > different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, > > him > > > > and > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other > > > > humans ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must > > > > happen > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also > > be > > > > lost ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state > > of > > > > Deep > > > > > > > > Sleep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea > > of a > > > > > > > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its > > source > > > > is > > > > > > > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality > > is. > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / organism > > > > changes > > > > > > much " bilogically " or " physically " . > > > > > > > > > > > > After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened bodies > > > > having > > > > > > hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, effacting > > as > > > > well > > > > > > as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and all. > > > > > > > > > > > > We see existence of almsot all biological functions that can > > be > > > > > > observed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't we ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties then, > > need > > > > to > > > > > > instantly Vanish ...? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Balsekar talks about a final understanding that happens > > to a > > > > > sage and that understanding is that no one is a doer, that > > although > > > > we > > > > > are doing all kinds of things it is not any separate individual > > > > doing > > > > > anything. Tony Parsons talks about clarity and he also says > > that no > > > > > one is doing anything. But that makes me wonder: mustn't there > > be a > > > > > change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system for > > this > > > > > understanding to happen? > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Anders, > > You asked: > You mean understand as collecting information, becoming more > conditioned, having more internal authority collected as memory? > > This question already is the result of that stupidity and reflects > that stupidity and you cannot see it, but everyone can see it who > cares about the treasures of his being, of intelligence. You lost > sight of that treasure, Anders. > > The more knowledge you gather the more you lose contact to your > natural intelligence. All your rational explanation you produce are > in the most cases the echo of your memory's ping pong or simplified: > Bla bla bla. But you don't see that. Your alarm bells are no longer > ringing. > > That wonderful tip Pete gave you, to listen for a feew months to the > sound of traffic, you never will do, even for 5 minutes. The > intellectual toys you find in books are much more fascinating. You > are like a child mistaking glass perls as real gems. > > Werner I am not much for practices having to do with time. I am moving out of time. /AL > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > > > Some way you are right. My text was missing precision. When I > > > wrote " you " then I meant " me " or " we " . Same with being a fool. > But > > > not about all those books which are the nightmare of your mind. > You > > > are getting more and more stupid, instead of intelligence there > is > > > more and more knowledge. > > > > > > Read what dabo_now wrote before. Can you understand what he/she > > > wrote ? It was perfect. > > > > > > Nisargadatta/message/18559 > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > You mean understand as collecting information, becoming more > > conditioned, having more internal authority collected as memory? > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Anders, > > > > > > > > > > You wrote: > > > > > mustn't there be a change in the electro-chemical makeup of > the > > > > > nervous system for this understanding to happen? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And if you know what that change is then you, Anders the never > > > > > ending doer and never ending thinker and endless babbler, > will do > > > > > that change, right ? ... ha ha ha ha > > > > > > > > > > Your mind is so heavily filled with numerous books, that you > > > totally > > > > > lost contact to that simple fact what fool you are. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aren't we all endless doers? (Well, perhaps not Tony Parsons > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in > > > > > > > then, ...why > > > > > > > > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to > be ... " biologically " > > > > > different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for > you, > > > him > > > > > and > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most > other > > > > > humans ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain > must > > > > > happen > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can > also > > > be > > > > > lost ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the > state > > > of > > > > > Deep > > > > > > > > > Sleep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the > idea > > > of a > > > > > > > > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and > its > > > source > > > > > is > > > > > > > > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in > reality > > > is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / > organism > > > > > changes > > > > > > > much " bilogically " or " physically " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened > bodies > > > > > having > > > > > > > hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, > effacting > > > as > > > > > well > > > > > > > as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and > all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We see existence of almsot all biological functions that > can > > > be > > > > > > > observed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't we ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties > then, > > > need > > > > > to > > > > > > > instantly Vanish ...? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Balsekar talks about a final understanding that > happens > > > to a > > > > > > sage and that understanding is that no one is a doer, that > > > although > > > > > we > > > > > > are doing all kinds of things it is not any separate > individual > > > > > doing > > > > > > anything. Tony Parsons talks about clarity and he also says > > > that no > > > > > > one is doing anything. But that makes me wonder: mustn't > there > > > be a > > > > > > change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system > for > > > this > > > > > > understanding to happen? > > > > > > > > > > > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > [ > > > > > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in > > then, ...why > > > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > > > > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and > > many > > > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen > > for > > > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be lost ! > > > > > > > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of Deep > > > > Sleep. > > > > > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > > > > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a > > > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source is > > > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. > > > > Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / organism changes > > much " bilogically " or " physically " . > > > > After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened bodies having > > hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, effacting as well > > as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and all. > > > > We see existence of almsot all biological functions that can be > > observed. > > > > Don't we ? > > > > > > Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties then, need to > > instantly Vanish ...? > > > > > > Ramesh Balsekar talks about a final understanding that happens to a > sage and that understanding is that no one is a doer, that although we > are doing all kinds of things it is not any separate individual doing > anything. Tony Parsons talks about clarity and he also says that no > one is doing anything. But that makes me wonder: mustn't there be a > change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system for this > understanding to happen? According to Balsekar, perhaps, ...it doesn't. When asked about allegation of sexual exportation of his family disciples, Balsekar is reported to have admitted them by saying: ....it is not me, but my BodyMind that runs after women! So at least, according to him his `body' / `mind' did Not Change. .. .... ...... > > /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > [ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in > > > then, ...why > > > > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " > different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him > and > > > many > > > > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other > humans ? > > > > > > > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must > happen > > > for > > > > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > > > > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be > lost ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of > Deep > > > > > Sleep. > > > > > > > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > > > > > > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a > > > > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source > is > > > > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. > > > > > > Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that a body / organism > changes > > > much " bilogically " or " physically " . > > > > > > After all, we do see many 'acknowledged' enlightened bodies > having > > > hunger, thirst, eating, harmones, ageing, sleeping, effacting as > well > > > as suffering from diseases, ...even dying from cancer and all. > > > > > > We see existence of almsot all biological functions that can be > > > observed. > > > > > > Don't we ? > > > > > > > > > Why then, some other bilogical impulses / properties then, need > to > > > instantly Vanish ...? > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Balsekar talks about a final understanding that happens to a > > sage and that understanding is that no one is a doer, that although > we > > are doing all kinds of things it is not any separate individual > doing > > anything. Tony Parsons talks about clarity and he also says that no > > one is doing anything. But that makes me wonder: mustn't there be a > > change in the electro-chemical makeup of the nervous system for this > > understanding to happen? > > > According to Balsekar, perhaps, ...it doesn't. > > When asked about allegation of sexual exportation of his family > disciples, Balsekar is reported to have admitted them by saying: > > ...it is not me, but my BodyMind that runs after women! > > > So at least, according to him his `body' / `mind' did Not Change. > > The body/mind organism continues to act according to its programming for its alloted span of life, even for a sage. The difference between a sage and an ordinary man is, Ramesh says, that while the ordinary man believes himself to be the doer, a sage knows that he is not the doer. That diffence I thought, must also be reflected in the body/mind mechanism itself. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2005 Report Share Posted January 31, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dabo_now " <dscasta> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > you mean, you don't see it as a story, Joe? > > > > Huh, what story?! It's a fact, man! And I'll fight to my death for > > it. :-) > > > > Joe > > > i figured so - you don't see it as a story. > > > what is now is more immediate than thought and precedes thought, > without excluding thought. > > there is no time to think about it, let alone see the thought (which > is nothing but reflecting back on your thoughts), recognize it as a > story, ask what the story pertains to, and conclude there is no " me " > to whom it pertains. > > the sense of " me " is more basic than that, and these cumbersome > mental processes have nothing to do with it, as they are only a part > of it - they cannot encompass it. > > the sense of a subject observing objects is the totality of my > sensory perceptions, thoughts and emotions. > > it is ALL of who i am now. Sounds like a nice story. ;-) Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 anders_lindman [anders_lindman] Sunday, January 30, 2005 5:04 AM Nisargadatta Re: Fear is your enemy / nightmare Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > [ > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in then, ...why > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and many > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen for > > liberation to occur. > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be lost ! > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of Deep > Sleep. > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source is infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. /AL One day u will be a enlightened man .. the earth is waiting for u ...to get enlightened . > > > > > A baby is born with a pain body, which is the > > collective human pain. I would say that a mutation in the heart must > > take place for the fearless state to flower (only a guess). > > > > /AL ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Ramanath, Murali H \(GE Healthcare\) " <Murali.Ramanath@g...> wrote: > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Sunday, January 30, 2005 5:04 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: Fear is your enemy / nightmare > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > [ > > > > > > > > ...if these `instincts' are biologically built-in then, ...why > > > > a `sage' needs to be Any Different ? > > > > > > > > Did Tolle, JK, Ramana claim to be ... " biologically " different. > > > > > > > > If that was the case, ...was there any hope for you, him and many > > > > other folks who are biologically just like most other humans ? > > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said that a mutation in the brain must happen for > > > liberation to occur. > > > > > > > > ...and, Ramana said: > > > > if Enlightenment was to get something anew, it can also be lost ! > > > > > > He further compared, ...Enlightened state with the state of Deep > > Sleep. > > > > Does it mean, ...this `mutation' happens every day ? > > My personal belief is that enlightenment reveals the idea of a > separate me as an illusion and that the universe and its source is > infinite indestructable intelligence which one in reality is. > > /AL > One day u will be a enlightened man .. the earth is waiting for u ....to get enlightened . > I know, I'm just warming up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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