Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I reach > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. Nobody > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, not > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding with > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > > running my life. > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, what > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > conscious. > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I realize > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of my > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself and > > my loved ones. > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice sprung > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no choice > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived has > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in the > moment is any real choice possible. > > /AL Choice also implies a chooser. I heard Tolle say once that there is no choice at all. This is consistent w most nondual type teachings. I guess people didn't like that message and his sales took a dive. ;-) I wonder what chooses? Clearly it's not thoughts, feelings, sensations, mind, body... hmmm, what's left? Does the weather choose to storm and wind? Or do these things occur when specific conditions are present? Later, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm > not > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind > is > > > running my life. > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > > conscious. > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences > of my > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > myself and > > > my loved ones. > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. > The > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make > me > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > sprung > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > choice > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived > has > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in > the > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > /AL > > Choice also implies a chooser. > > I heard Tolle say once that there is no choice at all. This is > consistent w most nondual type teachings. I guess people didn't like > that message and his sales took a dive. ;-) > > I wonder what chooses? > > Clearly it's not thoughts, feelings, sensations, mind, body... hmmm, > what's left? > > Does the weather choose to storm and wind? Or do these things occur > when specific conditions are present? > > Later, > Joe A human being is aware of the past and newness. Newness is the chooser, for newness creates. The past cannot create. How can it? Look, it's so simple. The past is powerless, for it is gone. Gone man gone! :-) Newness, the thinking mind cannot recognize. How could it? If the mind knew in advance, can predict what will be, then it is just a view of the past. Living too much in the past creates painful choices, that are not real choices at all, but only a constructed conflict between the past and newness. You can agonize for hours, days even, about some important choice you have to make. But that is only the past in showing its inability to predict the future. This inability will be resolved by newness in the moment. If you are too much in the past, then the choice will seem like a chance, like an uncertain gambling, and then _that_ - the painful decision - becomes a thing to agonize over. If you are close to newness, then all choices flow on naturally. The past cannot flow, for it is frozen in time. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. Without it, I have no choice. Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I reach that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways according to the conditioning of my mind. Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. Nobody chooses insanity. They happen because there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, not enough light to dispel the darkness. I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding with the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is running my life. As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, what choice do I have? NONE! I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- conscious. THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I realize this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. How can I resent someone's illness or my own? If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of my mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself and my loved ones. I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me feel safe by ignoring, denying, or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > > reach > > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > > ways > > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > > Nobody > > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > > not > > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > > with > > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm > > not > > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind > > is > > > > running my life. > > > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > > what > > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > > > conscious. > > > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > > realize > > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences > > of my > > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > > myself and > > > > my loved ones. > > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. > > The > > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make > > me > > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > > sprung > > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > > choice > > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived > > has > > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in > > the > > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > > > /AL > > > > Choice also implies a chooser. > > > > I heard Tolle say once that there is no choice at all. This is > > consistent w most nondual type teachings. I guess people didn't like > > that message and his sales took a dive. ;-) > > > > I wonder what chooses? > > > > Clearly it's not thoughts, feelings, sensations, mind, body... hmmm, > > what's left? > > > > Does the weather choose to storm and wind? Or do these things occur > > when specific conditions are present? > > > > Later, > > Joe > > A human being is aware of the past and newness. Newness is the > chooser, for newness creates. So, did newness choose to write this? Hmm, that's an interesting idea. What part of the human is aware of the past and newness? Try to find it, I bet you can't! :-) If you do, what's aware of that. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 > > A human being is aware of the past and newness. Newness is the > > chooser, for newness creates. > > So, did newness choose to write this? Hmm, that's an interesting > idea. > > What part of the human is aware of the past and newness? > > Try to find it, I bet you can't! :-) > > If you do, what's aware of that. > > Joe *********************** Me Odysseus, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > Without it, I have no choice. > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I reach > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. Nobody > chooses insanity. They happen because > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, not > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding with > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > running my life. > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, what > choice do I have? NONE! > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > conscious. > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I realize > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of my > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself and > my loved ones. > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice sprung out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no choice is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived has already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in the moment is any real choice possible. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I reach > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. Nobody > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, not > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding with > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > > running my life. > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, what > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > conscious. > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I realize > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of my > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself and > > my loved ones. > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice sprung > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no choice > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived has > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in the > moment is any real choice possible. > > /AL Choice also implies a chooser. I heard Tolle say once that there is no choice at all. This is consistent w most nondual type teachings. I guess people didn't like that message and his sales took a dive. ;-) I wonder what chooses? Clearly it's not thoughts, feelings, sensations, mind, body... hmmm, what's left? Does the weather choose to storm and wind? Or do these things occur when specific conditions are present? Later, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm > not > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind > is > > > running my life. > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > > conscious. > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences > of my > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > myself and > > > my loved ones. > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. > The > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make > me > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > sprung > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > choice > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived > has > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in > the > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > /AL > > Choice also implies a chooser. > > I heard Tolle say once that there is no choice at all. This is > consistent w most nondual type teachings. I guess people didn't like > that message and his sales took a dive. ;-) > > I wonder what chooses? > > Clearly it's not thoughts, feelings, sensations, mind, body... hmmm, > what's left? > > Does the weather choose to storm and wind? Or do these things occur > when specific conditions are present? > > Later, > Joe A human being is aware of the past and newness. Newness is the chooser, for newness creates. The past cannot create. How can it? Look, it's so simple. The past is powerless, for it is gone. Gone man gone! :-) Newness, the thinking mind cannot recognize. How could it? If the mind knew in advance, can predict what will be, then it is just a view of the past. Living too much in the past creates painful choices, that are not real choices at all, but only a constructed conflict between the past and newness. You can agonize for hours, days even, about some important choice you have to make. But that is only the past in showing its inability to predict the future. This inability will be resolved by newness in the moment. If you are too much in the past, then the choice will seem like a chance, like an uncertain gambling, and then _that_ - the painful decision - becomes a thing to agonize over. If you are close to newness, then all choices flow on naturally. The past cannot flow, for it is frozen in time. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > Without it, I have no choice. > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I reach > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. Nobody > chooses insanity. They happen because > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, not > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding with > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > running my life. > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, what > choice do I have? NONE! > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > conscious. > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I realize > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of my > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself and > my loved ones. > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " ** Arvind, this whole scenario was constructed by mind. Identification, disidentification, resentment, bondage, conditioning, patterns, etc.--all of it, including the sufferer of it and the supposed remedy, which you call " Self-present, higher consciousness. " Yet you speak of 'mind' as if it is something separate, something other than what it has manufactured. Is that a fact? Is that possible? Really, isn't it a mind-trick to keep the whole self- replicating, circular game going? Now there's another level of falsity-- a me, an observer, a believer or disbeliever in the previous constructions/imaginings, an entity or process that can assess, struggle, try to realign it in accordance with spiritual teachings--in a effort to get 'free' of it. The question is: can you be quick enough, alert enough to catch it as it's happening? Can you be fully that awareness that doesn't require bringing in anything from memory, in the form of teachings, knowledge or experience? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I reach > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. Nobody > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, not > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding with > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > > running my life. > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, what > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > conscious. > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I realize > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of my > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself and > > my loved ones. > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice sprung > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no choice > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived has > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in the > moment is any real choice possible. > > /AL ** Same mistake, talking about the mind as separate from the remembered past. It IS the memories, which is the ONLY 'past.' So it can never touch newness, nowness. They cannot co-exist. Innumerable 'little deaths' are required. Nothing to be done--it's already the case! It's always dissolving--right now...and now. And " you " with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Right so Ken, I like what you wrote, hopefully more mebers here will read it. Werner Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm > not > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind > is > > > running my life. > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > > conscious. > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences > of my > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > myself and > > > my loved ones. > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. > The > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make > me > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > sprung > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > choice > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived > has > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in > the > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > /AL > > ** Same mistake, talking about the mind as separate from the > remembered past. It IS the memories, which is the ONLY 'past.' > > So it can never touch newness, nowness. They cannot co-exist. > Innumerable 'little deaths' are required. > > Nothing to be done--it's already the case! It's always > dissolving--right now...and now. And " you " with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of > consciousness. > > > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. > Until I > > > reach > > > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in > certain > > > ways > > > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > > > Nobody > > > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the > past, > > > not > > > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time > binding > > > with > > > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning > I'm > > > not > > > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned > mind > > > is > > > > > running my life. > > > > > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my > life, > > > what > > > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become > Self- > > > > > conscious. > > > > > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost > everyone is > > > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > > > realize > > > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the > consequences > > > of my > > > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > > > myself and > > > > > my loved ones. > > > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and > pain. > > > The > > > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to > make > > > me > > > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > > > sprung > > > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is > just a > > > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > > > choice > > > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by > definition > > > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts > perceived > > > has > > > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. > Newness on > > > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle > newness in > > > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches > newness in > > > the > > > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > Choice also implies a chooser. > > > > > > I heard Tolle say once that there is no choice at all. This is > > > consistent w most nondual type teachings. I guess people didn't > like > > > that message and his sales took a dive. ;-) > > > > > > I wonder what chooses? > > > > > > Clearly it's not thoughts, feelings, sensations, mind, body... > hmmm, > > > what's left? > > > > > > Does the weather choose to storm and wind? Or do these things > occur > > > when specific conditions are present? > > > > > > Later, > > > Joe > > > > A human being is aware of the past and newness. Newness is the > > chooser, for newness creates. > > So, did newness choose to write this? Hmm, that's an interesting > idea. > > What part of the human is aware of the past and newness? > > Try to find it, I bet you can't! :-) > > If you do, what's aware of that. > > Joe I think newness can only be recognized by the ordinary mind by noticing the fact that things change. Change happens. The new itself cannot be seen, because once seen, it is already old. The arrow of time can be illustrated as the tip being newness and the rest of the arrow being the past. The tip is always moving towards the future so the arrow gets longer and longer. But it is only at the utmost tip of the arrow where anything new happens. The arrow grows _from_ the tip. It is not the past which makes the tip move forward. How could it? The past is frozen in time. Usually we live not at the tip, but a bit behind the tip. If our focus of awareness could move to the tip, then we would _become_ the tip. At the tip the real future is constantly being generated. When we live behind the tip we see only a pseudo-future created by extrapolaring the past. When living at the tip, the law of cause-and-effect is reversed. It is not the past that causes the future. The future is created in the living moment from the tip of the Arrow of Time. It is newness that creates change. In newness the future is constantly born. The past cannot create. The past cannot be a real cause. The past is a result of newness unfolding. Newness is not created by the past, because the past cannot - at least that is our experience of it - change. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > > running my life. > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > conscious. > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of > my > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself > and > > my loved ones. > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > ** Arvind, this whole scenario was constructed by mind. > Identification, disidentification, resentment, bondage, > conditioning, patterns, etc.--all of it, including the sufferer > of it and the > supposed remedy, which you call " Self-present, higher > consciousness. " > > Yet you speak of 'mind' as if it is something separate, > something > other than what it has manufactured. Is that a fact? Is that > possible? > > Really, isn't it a mind-trick to keep the whole self- > replicating, > circular game going? Now there's another level of falsity-- > a me, an observer, a believer or disbeliever in the previous > constructions/imaginings, an entity or process > that can assess, struggle, try to realign it in > accordance with spiritual teachings--in a effort to get 'free' > of it. cool. > The question is: can you be quick enough, alert enough to > catch it as it's happening? Can you be fully that awareness > that doesn't require bringing in anything from memory, in the > form of teachings, knowledge or experience? > > Ken how is " being quick enough, alert enough " not another mind game? how is " catching it as it's happening " not a split? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > > reach > > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > > ways > > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > > Nobody > > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > > not > > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > > with > > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm > > not > > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind > > is > > > > running my life. > > > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > > what > > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > > > conscious. > > > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > > realize > > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences > > of my > > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > > myself and > > > > my loved ones. > > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. > > The > > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make > > me > > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > > sprung > > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > > choice > > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived > > has > > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in > > the > > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > > > /AL > > > > Choice also implies a chooser. > > > > I heard Tolle say once that there is no choice at all. This is > > consistent w most nondual type teachings. I guess people didn't like > > that message and his sales took a dive. ;-) > > > > I wonder what chooses? > > > > Clearly it's not thoughts, feelings, sensations, mind, body... hmmm, > > what's left? > > > > Does the weather choose to storm and wind? Or do these things occur > > when specific conditions are present? > > > > Later, > > Joe > > A human being is aware of the past and newness. Newness is the > chooser, for newness creates. So, did newness choose to write this? Hmm, that's an interesting idea. What part of the human is aware of the past and newness? Try to find it, I bet you can't! :-) If you do, what's aware of that. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 > > A human being is aware of the past and newness. Newness is the > > chooser, for newness creates. > > So, did newness choose to write this? Hmm, that's an interesting > idea. > > What part of the human is aware of the past and newness? > > Try to find it, I bet you can't! :-) > > If you do, what's aware of that. > > Joe *********************** Me Odysseus, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm > not > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind > is > > > running my life. > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > > conscious. > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences > of my > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > myself and > > > my loved ones. > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. > The > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make > me > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > sprung > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > choice > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived > has > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in > the > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > /AL > > ** Same mistake, talking about the mind as separate from the > remembered past. It IS the memories, which is the ONLY 'past.' > > So it can never touch newness, nowness. They cannot co-exist. > Innumerable 'little deaths' are required. > > Nothing to be done--it's already the case! It's always > dissolving--right now...and now. And " you " with it. Yes, the frustrating thing is that " I " cannot do anything about change. I am not the creator of change. But if by grace the " I " were to move into nowness, then I would become the real doer. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > > running my life. > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > conscious. > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of > my > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself > and > > my loved ones. > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > ** Arvind, this whole scenario was constructed by mind. > Identification, disidentification, resentment, bondage, > conditioning, patterns, etc.--all of it, including the sufferer > of it and the > supposed remedy, which you call " Self-present, higher > consciousness. " > > Yet you speak of 'mind' as if it is something separate, > something > other than what it has manufactured. Is that a fact? Is that > possible? > > Really, isn't it a mind-trick to keep the whole self- > replicating, > circular game going? Now there's another level of falsity-- > a me, an observer, a believer or disbeliever in the previous > constructions/imaginings, an entity or process > that can assess, struggle, try to realign it in > accordance with spiritual teachings--in a effort to get 'free' > of it. > > The question is: can you be quick enough, alert enough to > catch it as it's happening? Can you be fully that awareness > that doesn't require bringing in anything from memory, in the > form of teachings, knowledge or experience? > > Ken Thank you, Kenji ! This passage was by Tolle. I just posted it here. Did you think, it was by me or are simply interested in discussing it with `me' in particular. With warm regards, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > Without it, I have no choice. > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I reach > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. Nobody > chooses insanity. They happen because > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, not > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding with > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > running my life. > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, what > choice do I have? NONE! > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > conscious. > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I realize > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of my > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself and > my loved ones. > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " ** Arvind, this whole scenario was constructed by mind. Identification, disidentification, resentment, bondage, conditioning, patterns, etc.--all of it, including the sufferer of it and the supposed remedy, which you call " Self-present, higher consciousness. " Yet you speak of 'mind' as if it is something separate, something other than what it has manufactured. Is that a fact? Is that possible? Really, isn't it a mind-trick to keep the whole self- replicating, circular game going? Now there's another level of falsity-- a me, an observer, a believer or disbeliever in the previous constructions/imaginings, an entity or process that can assess, struggle, try to realign it in accordance with spiritual teachings--in a effort to get 'free' of it. The question is: can you be quick enough, alert enough to catch it as it's happening? Can you be fully that awareness that doesn't require bringing in anything from memory, in the form of teachings, knowledge or experience? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I reach > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain ways > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. Nobody > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, not > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding with > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > > running my life. > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, what > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > conscious. > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I realize > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of my > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself and > > my loved ones. > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice sprung > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no choice > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived has > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in the > moment is any real choice possible. > > /AL ** Same mistake, talking about the mind as separate from the remembered past. It IS the memories, which is the ONLY 'past.' So it can never touch newness, nowness. They cannot co-exist. Innumerable 'little deaths' are required. Nothing to be done--it's already the case! It's always dissolving--right now...and now. And " you " with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Right so Ken, I like what you wrote, hopefully more mebers here will read it. Werner Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm > not > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind > is > > > running my life. > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > > conscious. > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences > of my > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > myself and > > > my loved ones. > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. > The > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make > me > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > sprung > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > choice > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived > has > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in > the > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > /AL > > ** Same mistake, talking about the mind as separate from the > remembered past. It IS the memories, which is the ONLY 'past.' > > So it can never touch newness, nowness. They cannot co-exist. > Innumerable 'little deaths' are required. > > Nothing to be done--it's already the case! It's always > dissolving--right now...and now. And " you " with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " josesiem " <josesiem> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of > consciousness. > > > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. > Until I > > > reach > > > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in > certain > > > ways > > > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > > > Nobody > > > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the > past, > > > not > > > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time > binding > > > with > > > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning > I'm > > > not > > > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned > mind > > > is > > > > > running my life. > > > > > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my > life, > > > what > > > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become > Self- > > > > > conscious. > > > > > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost > everyone is > > > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > > > realize > > > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the > consequences > > > of my > > > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > > > myself and > > > > > my loved ones. > > > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and > pain. > > > The > > > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to > make > > > me > > > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > > > sprung > > > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is > just a > > > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > > > choice > > > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by > definition > > > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts > perceived > > > has > > > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. > Newness on > > > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle > newness in > > > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches > newness in > > > the > > > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > Choice also implies a chooser. > > > > > > I heard Tolle say once that there is no choice at all. This is > > > consistent w most nondual type teachings. I guess people didn't > like > > > that message and his sales took a dive. ;-) > > > > > > I wonder what chooses? > > > > > > Clearly it's not thoughts, feelings, sensations, mind, body... > hmmm, > > > what's left? > > > > > > Does the weather choose to storm and wind? Or do these things > occur > > > when specific conditions are present? > > > > > > Later, > > > Joe > > > > A human being is aware of the past and newness. Newness is the > > chooser, for newness creates. > > So, did newness choose to write this? Hmm, that's an interesting > idea. > > What part of the human is aware of the past and newness? > > Try to find it, I bet you can't! :-) > > If you do, what's aware of that. > > Joe I think newness can only be recognized by the ordinary mind by noticing the fact that things change. Change happens. The new itself cannot be seen, because once seen, it is already old. The arrow of time can be illustrated as the tip being newness and the rest of the arrow being the past. The tip is always moving towards the future so the arrow gets longer and longer. But it is only at the utmost tip of the arrow where anything new happens. The arrow grows _from_ the tip. It is not the past which makes the tip move forward. How could it? The past is frozen in time. Usually we live not at the tip, but a bit behind the tip. If our focus of awareness could move to the tip, then we would _become_ the tip. At the tip the real future is constantly being generated. When we live behind the tip we see only a pseudo-future created by extrapolaring the past. When living at the tip, the law of cause-and-effect is reversed. It is not the past that causes the future. The future is created in the living moment from the tip of the Arrow of Time. It is newness that creates change. In newness the future is constantly born. The past cannot create. The past cannot be a real cause. The past is a result of newness unfolding. Newness is not created by the past, because the past cannot - at least that is our experience of it - change. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > > running my life. > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > conscious. > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of > my > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself > and > > my loved ones. > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > ** Arvind, this whole scenario was constructed by mind. > Identification, disidentification, resentment, bondage, > conditioning, patterns, etc.--all of it, including the sufferer > of it and the > supposed remedy, which you call " Self-present, higher > consciousness. " > > Yet you speak of 'mind' as if it is something separate, > something > other than what it has manufactured. Is that a fact? Is that > possible? > > Really, isn't it a mind-trick to keep the whole self- > replicating, > circular game going? Now there's another level of falsity-- > a me, an observer, a believer or disbeliever in the previous > constructions/imaginings, an entity or process > that can assess, struggle, try to realign it in > accordance with spiritual teachings--in a effort to get 'free' > of it. cool. > The question is: can you be quick enough, alert enough to > catch it as it's happening? Can you be fully that awareness > that doesn't require bringing in anything from memory, in the > form of teachings, knowledge or experience? > > Ken how is " being quick enough, alert enough " not another mind game? how is " catching it as it's happening " not a split? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm > not > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind > is > > > running my life. > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > > conscious. > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences > of my > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for > myself and > > > my loved ones. > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. > The > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make > me > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > These are strong words by Tolle. But what they mean is: choice > sprung > > out of rational thinking is not choice at all because it is just a > > view of the past, and the past has already happened; hence no > choice > > is in reality being made in that way. None. Zip. Zero. > > > > Humans are aware of the past and newness. The past is by definition > > not moving, static, frozen, dead. The 9/11 disaster has already > > happened. Last second has already happened. All thoughts perceived > has > > already happened. They are " dead " entities, so to speak. Newness on > > the other hand is alive. Rational thinking cannot handle newness in > > any way at all, because it is totally oblivious about newness. > > > > Only when the mind moves away from the past and touches newness in > the > > moment is any real choice possible. > > > > /AL > > ** Same mistake, talking about the mind as separate from the > remembered past. It IS the memories, which is the ONLY 'past.' > > So it can never touch newness, nowness. They cannot co-exist. > Innumerable 'little deaths' are required. > > Nothing to be done--it's already the case! It's always > dissolving--right now...and now. And " you " with it. Yes, the frustrating thing is that " I " cannot do anything about change. I am not the creator of change. But if by grace the " I " were to move into nowness, then I would become the real doer. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > reach > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > ways > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > Nobody > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > not > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > with > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm not > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > > running my life. > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > what > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > conscious. > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > realize > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences of > my > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself > and > > my loved ones. > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > ** Arvind, this whole scenario was constructed by mind. > Identification, disidentification, resentment, bondage, > conditioning, patterns, etc.--all of it, including the sufferer > of it and the > supposed remedy, which you call " Self-present, higher > consciousness. " > > Yet you speak of 'mind' as if it is something separate, > something > other than what it has manufactured. Is that a fact? Is that > possible? > > Really, isn't it a mind-trick to keep the whole self- > replicating, > circular game going? Now there's another level of falsity-- > a me, an observer, a believer or disbeliever in the previous > constructions/imaginings, an entity or process > that can assess, struggle, try to realign it in > accordance with spiritual teachings--in a effort to get 'free' > of it. > > The question is: can you be quick enough, alert enough to > catch it as it's happening? Can you be fully that awareness > that doesn't require bringing in anything from memory, in the > form of teachings, knowledge or experience? > > Ken Thank you, Kenji ! This passage was by Tolle. I just posted it here. Did you think, it was by me or are simply interested in discussing it with `me' in particular. With warm regards, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2005 Report Share Posted February 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dabo_now " <dscasta> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > > > " Choice implies consciousness - a high degree of consciousness. > > > Without it, I have no choice. > > > > > > Choice begins the moment I dis-identify from my mind and its > > > conditioned patterns, the moment I become Self-present. Until I > > reach > > > that point, I'm unconscious, spiritually speaking. > > > > > > This means that I'm compelled to think, feel, and act in certain > > ways > > > according to the conditioning of my mind. > > > > > > Nobody consciously chooses dis-function, conflict, and pain. > > Nobody > > > chooses insanity. They happen because > > > there isn't enough conscious Self-presence to dissolve the past, > > not > > > enough light to dispel the darkness. > > > > > > I'm never fully here in the now because I'm either time binding > > with > > > the past or the future. I have not quite woken up, meaning I'm > not > > > fully Self-conscious yet. In the meantime, my conditioned mind is > > > running my life. > > > > > > As long as my mind (with its conditioned patterns) runs my life, > > what > > > choice do I have? NONE! > > > > > > I'm not even there yet, and I won't be there until I become Self- > > > conscious. > > > > > > THE MIND-IDENTIFIED STATE IS SEVERELY DIS-FUNCTIONAL. > > > > > > It is a form of socially acceptable insanity. Almost everyone is > > > suffering from this illness in varying degrees. The moment I > > realize > > > this, there can be no more resentment or guilt. > > > > > > How can I resent someone's illness or my own? > > > > > > If I'm primarily run by my mind, I will suffer the consequences > of > > my > > > mind identification, and I'll create further suffering for myself > > and > > > my loved ones. > > > I will bear the burden of fear, conflict, problems, and pain. The > > > suffering that I'm creating is my mind's false attempt to make me > > > feel safe by ignoring, denying, > > > or repressing that which I'm experiencing. " > > > > ** Arvind, this whole scenario was constructed by mind. > > Identification, disidentification, resentment, bondage, > > conditioning, patterns, etc.--all of it, including the > sufferer > > of it and the > > supposed remedy, which you call " Self-present, higher > > consciousness. " > > > > Yet you speak of 'mind' as if it is something separate, > > something > > other than what it has manufactured. Is that a fact? Is that > > possible? > > > > Really, isn't it a mind-trick to keep the whole self- > > replicating, > > circular game going? Now there's another level of falsity-- > > a me, an observer, a believer or disbeliever in the previous > > constructions/imaginings, an entity or process > > that can assess, struggle, try to realign it in > > accordance with spiritual teachings--in a effort to get 'free' > > of it. > > > cool. > > > > The question is: can you be quick enough, alert enough to > > catch it as it's happening? Can you be fully that awareness > > that doesn't require bringing in anything from memory, in the > > form of teachings, knowledge or experience? > > > > Ken > > > how is " being quick enough, alert enough " not another mind game? > > how is " catching it as it's happening " not a split? ** Who could be aware of that but you, as *inquiry,* as *this*? Was anything constructed with those phrases, by that communication--anything actual? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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