Wordless Wonder

[Guest guest]

Stefan wrote:

The strange thing is that I can watch all

this, reflect upon it, feel

my possible resistance until I understand

that even the resistance or

the desire is part of the inevitable

dance. The inevitability of

everything is so obvious to my

intellectual understanding that I

wonder why we so often pose as the ones

who are controlling something.

It must be a survival mechanism. I can

even see it in my cat, how it

is trying to manipulate situations out of

desire, although it gives up

quite easily when it sees the futility.

 

>Advocates of non-doing

mislead in talking about non-doing. One

cannot do non-doing. Non-doing

is a by product of complete futility, of a

natural inability to act

in a

>certain way. Non-doing occurs on account

of inability.

 

Commonly we associate " doing " with acts

that are resulting from

thoughts and thus seem to be results of

more or less conscious

decisions. The thoughts may com from half-

darkness or from full

darkness... where to draw the border line?

 

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

 

 

Hi Stefan,

The thing about these

discussions on free will is that there is

often an unannounced veering between the

absolute and the relative. In the

practical domain free will implies

liberty, distinguishing between reasons

and causes and the like.

 

If free will is on the relative plane, in

the causal arena; can we ever go further

than freedom as lack of constraint. What

possible sense can be given to freedom as

acausal action? Votaries of the apophatic

will raise their cowls and glide away.

 

The Bodhisattva allows himself to be bound

by a vow. Freedom said someone is the

knowledge of necessity. The wave does not

move, local water moves up and down

sequentially. We bob sometimes with the

asuras and sometimes with the devas. That

is early sadhana, later we identify with

the beginningless energy that moves upon

the waters.

 

It is probably known to you all but can I

recommend '4 Quartets' by T.S.Eliot as a

profound meditation on time and action.

 

Michael.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

> Stefan wrote:

> The strange thing is that I can watch all

> this, reflect upon it, feel

> my possible resistance until I understand

> that even the resistance or

> the desire is part of the inevitable

> dance. The inevitability of

> everything is so obvious to my

> intellectual understanding that I

> wonder why we so often pose as the ones

> who are controlling something.

> It must be a survival mechanism. I can

> even see it in my cat, how it

> is trying to manipulate situations out of

> desire, although it gives up

> quite easily when it sees the futility.

>

> >Advocates of non-doing

> mislead in talking about non-doing. One

> cannot do non-doing. Non-doing

> is a by product of complete futility, of a

> natural inability to act

> in a

> >certain way. Non-doing occurs on account

> of inability.

>

> Commonly we associate " doing " with acts

> that are resulting from

> thoughts and thus seem to be results of

> more or less conscious

> decisions. The thoughts may com from half-

> darkness or from full

> darkness... where to draw the border line?

>

> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

>

>

> Hi Stefan,

> The thing about these

> discussions on free will is that there is

> often an unannounced veering between the

> absolute and the relative. In the

> practical domain free will implies

> liberty, distinguishing between reasons

> and causes and the like.

>

> If free will is on the relative plane, in

> the causal arena; can we ever go further

> than freedom as lack of constraint. What

> possible sense can be given to freedom as

> acausal action? Votaries of the apophatic

> will raise their cowls and glide away.

 

 

What is freedom? What is causal action? What is acausal action? Are

there such things as this in experience? Certainly there is in

thought, and those imbued with thoughts. When an action occurs or does

not occur what is at the root of it? Can one say what it is?

Especially since such saying is done after the action has been

committed? And when an action or inaction occurs, does one determine

by thought or decision for it to occur?

 

Close examination of experience reveals it that there are two commonly

experienced experiences in this regard. There is volition as the

exercise of choice between two directions or things, I will do this

not that, or I will do this and it is done. This is superficial

decisioning, a common experience. In this experience, we have the

basis for the doctrine of free will, however that is expressed and

explained. This experience is common to those dependedent on thought

and happens all the time. It is a complex one for all the conditions

that surround and act upon the decider are not always fully known or

to what extent they influence the will in choosing x or y. How free is

free will? Why is there an effort to give up free will in the mystic

traditions. Why is no doership spoken of?

 

Then there is the experience of where such conscious decisioning does

not occur because there are no thoughts to decide between. There is

only spontaneous and continuous responses to an event or events.

Speaking, walking, rescuing someone in danger, and the unlimited

responses when thoughts are not present to choose between, to exercise

a choice. Where is the free will in this? What choices are being made?

 

So in one appearance there is that experience of free will and all its

complications and influences and the experience of spontaneous action

without free will, will or decisioning.

 

Then we go to those who experience as a normal course in their lives

little or no decisioning at all simply because it has become

unecessary. All is responded to as as it is, in a darkness, without

effort or doing because there is an inability or ability to do so.

This means that decisioning is accomplished not by effortful volition

or thought or vows. It is accomplished in another way without effort

or deciding pros and cons or choosing thoughts between this and that

or dedication or holding and grasping and clinging to ideas to prevent

untoward behavior. It is simply a response, yes or no, without reason

applied or choice made, without need for morals or ethics or any sort

of thought of controlling the direction of behavior. These seem to

have " laws " as it is, that are not held or cherished or dedicated to

and so on.

 

This may seem to be without constraints and it is not, that is

mistaken, for there are great constraints where such persons are not

allowed to do freely as they are bound by what they are, what ever

that may be conceived as. Some say karma, others say conditioning,

others say what the Shambalists say about primordial being. T. S.

Eliot, whatever he was, points to this. St. John of the Cross wrote

clearly of this in the " Dark Night of the Soul. " Such descriptions are

common in the mystic traditions and in the Advaita Vedantists and

Buddhist notions of no doers.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

III

 

O dark dark dark. They all go into the dark,

The vacant interstellar spaces, the vacant into the vacant,

The captains, merchant bankers, eminent men of letters,

The generous patrons of art, the statesmen and the rulers,

Distinguished civil servants, chairmen of many committees,

Industrial lords and petty contractors, all go into the dark,

And dark the Sun and Moon, and the Almanach de Gotha

And the Stock Exchange Gazette, the Directory of Directors,

And cold the sense and lost the motive of action.

And we all go with them, into the silent funeral,

Nobody's funeral, for there is no one to bury.

I said to my soul, be still, and let the dark come upon you

Which shall be the darkness of God. As, in a theatre,

The lights are extinguished, for the scene to be changed

With a hollow rumble of wings, with a movement of darkness on darkness,

And we know that the hills and the trees, the distant panorama

And the bold imposing facade are all being rolled away—

Or as, when an underground train, in the tube, stops too long between

stations

And the conversation rises and slowly fades into silence

And you see behind every face the mental emptiness deepen

Leaving only the growing terror of nothing to think about;

Or when, under ether, the mind is conscious but conscious of nothing—

I said to my soul, be still, and wait without hope

For hope would be hope for the wrong thing; wait without love,

For love would be love of the wrong thing; there is yet faith

But the faith and the love and the hope are all in the waiting.

Wait without thought, for you are not ready for thought:

So the darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing.

Whisper of running streams, and winter lightning.

The wild thyme unseen and the wild strawberry,

The laughter in the garden, echoed ecstasy

Not lost, but requiring, pointing to the agony

Of death and birth.

 

You say I am repeating

Something I have said before. I shall say it again.

Shall I say it again? In order to arrive there,

To arrive where you are, to get from where you are not,

You must go by a way wherein there is no ecstasy.

In order to arrive at what you do not know

You must go by a way which is the way of ignorance.

In order to possess what you do not possess

You must go by the way of dispossession.

In order to arrive at what you are not

You must go through the way in which you are not.

And what you do not know is the only thing you know

And what you own is what you do not own

And where you are is where you are not.

 

EAST COKER

No. 2 Stanza III of " Four Quartets " , T.S. Eliot

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

CHAPTER IX

 

 

 

How, although this night brings darkness to the spirit, it does so in

order to illumine it and give it light.

 

 

IT now remains to be said that, although this happy night brings

darkness to the spirit, it does so only to give it light in

everything; and that, although it humbles it and makes it miserable,

it does so only to exalt it and to raise it up; and, although it

impoverishes it and empties it of all natural affection and

attachment, it does so only that it may enable it to stretch forward,

divinely, and thus to have fruition and experience of all things, both

above and below, yet to preserve its unrestricted liberty of spirit in

them all. For just as the elements, in order that they may have a part

in all natural entities and compounds, must have no particular colour,

odour or taste, so as to be able to combine with all tastes odours and

colours, just so must the spirit be simple, pure and detached from all

kinds of natural affection, whether actual or habitual, to the end

that it may be able freely to share in the breadth of spirit of the

Divine Wisdom, wherein, through its purity, it has experience of all

the sweetness of all things in a certain pre-eminently excellent way.

And without this purgation it will be wholly unable to feel or

experience the satisfaction of all this abundance of spiritual

sweetness. For one single affection remaining in the spirit, or one

particular thing to which, actually or habitually, it clings, suffices

to hinder it from feeling or experiencing or communicating the

delicacy and intimate sweetness of the spirit of love, which contains

within itself all sweetness to a most eminent degree.

 

Dark Night of the Soul, Book II Chapter 9, Saint John of the Cross,

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

>

> The Bodhisattva allows himself to be bound

> by a vow. Freedom said someone is the

> knowledge of necessity. The wave does not

> move, local water moves up and down

> sequentially. We bob sometimes with the

> asuras and sometimes with the devas. That

> is early sadhana, later we identify with

> the beginningless energy that moves upon

> the waters.

 

It can be said vows are for two. It is for those incapable at the

moment of doing that which the vow demands as it is as ordinary

living. Without effortful adherence to the vow their behavior is

untoward, unruly, out of the order with what the vow describes and

prescribes. Adherence brings the appearance into line and readies it

for an occurrence.

 

It is also for those who need no vow for their behavior needs no

governance by such rules and prescriptions. These take a vow to do

that which is for them compassion for others. Not taken, these would

not be of service to others in their suffering and they do so soley

for others.

 

 

> It is probably known to you all but can I

> recommend '4 Quartets' by T.S.Eliot as a

> profound meditation on time and action.

 

 

FOUR QUARTETS

 

T.S. Eliot

 

http://www.tristan.icom43.net/quartets/

 

 

> Michael.