Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Various images and analogies have been used in Vedanta to give a sense of the self. It has been called the Fourth in the Mandukya Up. as though it were additional to the other three states or modalities of consciousness, waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. In fact it is not separated from any of the three states and may be regarded as their substratum. 'Turiya (the Fourth) has for its valid proof, the single belief in the Self'. The analogy of material identity is sometimes used; clay is the basic stuff out of which platters, jugs, dishes are made; gold is the identity of ornaments and so forth. Clearly if consciousness/self/Turiya is the unchanging identity of the person, the same thing cannot have two beginnings in time and thus it is preserved through the state of deep sleep. That indicates that it is not to be viewed as the subject of a state of consciousness. There are no neural correlates of consciousness in the sense that on the one hand you have a state of the brain and on the other hand you have a state of consciousness. Is the Upanisad saying that the belief in the Self is the proof of the Self? In his commentary on that part of the Mandukya Upanisad, Sankara refers to the Brhadaranyaka Up. I.iv.7: " This (universe) was then undifferentiated. It differentiated only into name and form - it was called such and such, and was of such and such form. So to this day it is differentiated only into name and form - it is called such and such, and is of such and such form. This Self has entered into these bodies up to the tip of the nails - as a razor may be put in its case, or as fire, which sustains the world, may be its source. People do not see It, for (viewed in its aspects) It is incomplete. When It does the function of living, It is called the vital force; when It speaks, the organ of speech; when It sees, the eye; when It hears, the ear; and when It thinks, the mind. These are merely Its names according to functions. He who meditates upon each of this totality of aspects does not know, for It is incomplete, (being divided) from this totality by possessing a single characteristic. The Self alone is to be meditated upon, for all these are unified in It. Of all these, this Self alone should be realised, for one knows all these through It, just as one may get (an animal) through its foot- prints. He who knows It as such obtains fame and association (with his relatives). " 'Turiya (the Fourth) has for its valid proof, the single belief in the Self'. Tentatively, could that mean that by the very fact that we have a concept of the self, there must be a self or that its existence causes belief in it. The word belief is used because knowledge or evidence is not appropriate. In any case " the remembrance of the Self comes automatically....It could not arise otherwise " (Sankara) Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Nisargadatta , ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote: > Various images and analogies have been > used in Vedanta to give a sense of the > self. It has been called the Fourth in > the Mandukya Up. as though it were > additional to the other three states or > modalities of consciousness, waking, > dreaming, and deep sleep. In fact it is > not separated from any of the three > states and may be regarded as their > substratum. 'Turiya (the Fourth) has for > its valid proof, the single belief in the > Self'. The analogy of material identity > is sometimes used; clay is the basic stuff > out of which platters, jugs, dishes are > made; gold is the identity of ornaments > and so forth. Clearly if > consciousness/self/Turiya is the > unchanging identity of the person, the > same thing cannot have two beginnings in > time and thus it is preserved through the > state of deep sleep. That indicates that > it is not to be viewed as the subject of > a state of consciousness. There are no > neural correlates of consciousness in the > sense that on the one hand you have a > state of the brain and on the other hand > you have a state of consciousness. > > Is the Upanisad saying that the belief in > the Self is the proof of the Self? In > his commentary on that part of the > Mandukya Upanisad, Sankara refers to the > Brhadaranyaka Up. I.iv.7: > > " This (universe) was then > undifferentiated. It differentiated only > into name and form - it was called such > and such, and was of such and such form. > So to this day it is differentiated only > into name and form - it is called such > and such, and is of such and such form. > This Self has entered into these bodies > up to the tip of the nails - as a razor > may be put in its case, or as fire, which > sustains the world, may be its source. > People do not see It, for (viewed in its > aspects) It is incomplete. When It does > the function of living, It is called the > vital force; when It speaks, the organ of > speech; when It sees, the eye; when It > hears, the ear; and when It thinks, the > mind. These are merely Its names > according to functions. He who meditates > upon each of this totality of aspects does > not know, for It is incomplete, (being > divided) from this totality by possessing > a single characteristic. The Self alone > is to be meditated upon, for all these > are unified in It. Of all these, this > Self alone should be realised, for one > knows all these through It, just as one > may get (an animal) through its foot- > prints. He who knows It as such obtains > fame and association (with his > relatives). " > > 'Turiya (the Fourth) has for its valid > proof, the single belief in the Self'. > Tentatively, could that mean that by the > very fact that we have a concept of the > self, there must be a self or that its > existence causes belief in it. The word > belief is used because knowledge or > evidence is not appropriate. In any case > " the remembrance of the Self comes > automatically....It could not arise > otherwise " (Sankara) > > Michael **************************** Wonderful, Great! Just one thing. Any belief can be taken as proof of Turiya's existence. Beliefs are from the mind or thoughts. Turiya is beyond the mind or thoughts. Only direct experience of it is the proof of its existence. The one who leaves permanently in Turiya is considered a true guru. Here comes the divine Lineage. But of course all this can be learned in few days. Just by reading Ramana, if you have good intellectual skills!?! Absolutly not! Too bad :0) Love Odysseus, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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