Guest guest Posted March 22, 2005 Report Share Posted March 22, 2005 To be free from fear you must know that you have no free will and no one else has free will either. Only then can the world become faultless, and only such kind of world can truly be free from fear. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2005 Report Share Posted March 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > To be free from fear you must know that you have no free will and no > one else has free will either. Only then can the world become > faultless, and only such kind of world can truly be free from fear. > again that fear of failure. of rejection. of things going wrong. " fear " is a great teacher. everything here is to teach you. you have free will. accept it. you can fail. accept it. try your best. and then leave it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2005 Report Share Posted March 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > To be free from fear you must know that you have no free will and > no > > one else has free will either. Only then can the world become > > faultless, and only such kind of world can truly be free from fear. > > > > again that fear of failure. of rejection. of things going wrong. > > " fear " is a great teacher. everything here is to teach you. > > you have free will. accept it. you can fail. accept it. try your > best. and then leave it. Try my best? There's that struggle again. See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. That's the true Mystic speaking. The lilies lives in a field of peace. Is fear needed as a teacher? Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? Is conflict really needed? Common sense says that we all have to make a living. Make a living? Be a slave to money? Listen to the Mystic speaking: " No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. " -- Matthew 6 /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " > <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > To be free from fear you must know that you have no free will and > > no > > > one else has free will either. Only then can the world become > > > faultless, and only such kind of world can truly be free from fear. > > > > > > > again that fear of failure. of rejection. of things going wrong. > > > > " fear " is a great teacher. everything here is to teach you. > > > > you have free will. accept it. you can fail. accept it. try your > > best. and then leave it. > > Try my best? There's that struggle again. See how the lilies of the not doing your best is insincerity. there is no need to be hung up on " doing my best " . just do what seems appropriate. but don't be a skiver. > field grow. They do not labor or spin. That's the true Mystic > speaking. The lilies lives in a field of peace. Is fear needed as a > teacher? Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? Is conflict really > needed? Common sense says that we all have to make a living. Make a > living? Be a slave to money? Listen to the Mystic speaking: > your flowering is your wise use of free will and it as a servant to love. > " No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love > the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You > cannot serve both God and Money. > > Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat > or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more > important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at > the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, > and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more > valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to > his life? > > And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field > grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon > in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God > clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is > thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of > little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What > shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all > these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. " -- > Matthew 6 > you do not have to make money your master. but you are in a matrix of relationships, assets and liabilities, expectations... you have to complete your role. i have seen monks who tried to escape from all this - guess what they are deeper in the hole than an ignoramus. " for they know not what they do " if you look to mysticism to escape from these knots, you are falling in the trap again. there is no escape. the important this is if you let love flower in your heart. and don't be foolish and think life will take care of itself automatically just because you think it should, or because you read the marketing brochure. it will test you again and again, even on the cross. " this world " with its expectations, rewards and punishments is your prarabdha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " > > <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > To be free from fear you must know that you have no free will and > > > no > > > > one else has free will either. Only then can the world become > > > > faultless, and only such kind of world can truly be free from fear. > > > > > > > > > > again that fear of failure. of rejection. of things going wrong. > > > > > > " fear " is a great teacher. everything here is to teach you. > > > > > > you have free will. accept it. you can fail. accept it. try your > > > best. and then leave it. > > > > Try my best? There's that struggle again. See how the lilies of the > > not doing your best is insincerity. > > there is no need to be hung up on " doing my best " . just do what seems > appropriate. but don't be a skiver. Do what? When? Clearly I am not the doer. God is the only doer. Do you believe your thoughts that prompts doing are created by you???! If so, then please tell me how you create your own thoughts, your own decisions, your own cause of change. Time is change. Are you telling me that you also, like time, can create change? Who is the commander, you or time? If you believe you can cause change, then you believe you can act in another dimension than time (because if you would act in the same dimension as time, then for change to happen by your will, you must be able to _alter_ time, and in that possibly delusional state, ask yourself: can I do that? can I alter time?) Maybe you can. Maybe you can't. Simply try this experiment: move your right hand. Was it time that caused the hand to move, or was it you? Can you create change? > > > field grow. They do not labor or spin. That's the true Mystic > > speaking. The lilies lives in a field of peace. Is fear needed as a > > teacher? Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? Is conflict really > > needed? Common sense says that we all have to make a living. Make a > > living? Be a slave to money? Listen to the Mystic speaking: > > > > your flowering is your wise use of free will and it as a servant to love. Free will is much connected to thought. And are you the creator of your thoughts? Certainly You are, but you (the separate person) are perhaps not. > > > " No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love > > the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You > > cannot serve both God and Money. > > > > Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat > > or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more > > important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at > > the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, > > and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more > > valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to > > his life? > > > > And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field > > grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon > > in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God > > clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is > > thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of > > little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What > > shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all > > these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. " -- > > Matthew 6 > > > > you do not have to make money your master. but you are in a matrix of > relationships, assets and liabilities, expectations... you have to > complete your role. i have seen monks who tried to escape from all > this - guess what they are deeper in the hole than an ignoramus. " for > they know not what they do " > > if you look to mysticism to escape from these knots, you are falling > in the trap again. there is no escape. No escape? How about free will? > > the important this is if you let love flower in your heart. and don't > be foolish and think life will take care of itself automatically just > because you think it should, or because you read the marketing brochure. > > it will test you again and again, even on the cross. > > " this world " with its expectations, rewards and punishments is your > prarabdha. In the present moment there is only struggle if you believe you must struggle. I am not sure that struggle is needed. Maybe I am fooling myself. I don't know if I have free will or not, but if I do, then so far this so called 'free will' really sucks. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > there is no need to be hung up on " doing my best " . just do what seems > > appropriate. but don't be a skiver. > > Do what? When? Clearly I am not the doer. God is the only doer. Do you you are not the doer, but you still have " to do " . > believe your thoughts that prompts doing are created by you???! If so, your intentions have a major influence on your thoughts. in classical teaching thoughts arise from the heart (the emotional centres). > then please tell me how you create your own thoughts, your own it is obvious. you know it. everyone does. > decisions, your own cause of change. Time is change. Are you telling > me that you also, like time, can create change? Who is the commander, in the ocean there are waves. if you throw a stone, you create small waves which are superimposed. so yes, you did cause change. > you or time? If you believe you can cause change, then you believe you first, there is no such thing as time. there is change. that is it. time is a concept to make sense of change (cause-effect and so on). > Maybe you can't. Simply try this experiment: move your right hand. Was > it time that caused the hand to move, or was it you? Can you create > change? > you can. you do it all the time. there are people who deny free will. you can go to their shop if you like. i can only tell you what i have found. i walked the same path as you and eventually realized my own emotional skiving was the problem. that is your pain. you don't want that responsibility. you want the fruits of life but not its responsibilities. face life like a warrior. if you haven't heard it, there is a great audio series from stuart wilde where he talks about being a warrior and facing up to life. look it up. > > > > if you look to mysticism to escape from these knots, you are falling > > in the trap again. there is no escape. > > No escape? How about free will? > " this " is the way it is. come to peace with it. that is called " transcendence " (a big word). > > " this world " with its expectations, rewards and punishments is your > > prarabdha. > > In the present moment there is only struggle if you believe you must > struggle. I am not sure that struggle is needed. Maybe I am fooling depends what you mean by struggle. > myself. I don't know if I have free will or not, but if I do, then so > far this so called 'free will' really sucks. > what you are saying is the direction and results in your life suck. that is your life. come to terms with it. try to improve it, if you can. for that you have to use your mind and intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > there is no need to be hung up on " doing my best " . just do what seems > > > appropriate. but don't be a skiver. > > > > Do what? When? Clearly I am not the doer. God is the only doer. Do you > > you are not the doer, but you still have " to do " . Jesus Christ said: I am not doing anything - the Father is working through me. Maybe the Father is working through us as well, only that we have ego:s that are illusions of separation. > > > believe your thoughts that prompts doing are created by you???! If so, > > your intentions have a major influence on your thoughts. in classical > teaching thoughts arise from the heart (the emotional centres). > > > then please tell me how you create your own thoughts, your own > > it is obvious. you know it. everyone does. Sages talk about the dropping away of the ego, and then they see clearly that the ego was a chimera, a phony, false sense of self. > > > decisions, your own cause of change. Time is change. Are you telling > > me that you also, like time, can create change? Who is the commander, > > in the ocean there are waves. if you throw a stone, you create small > waves which are superimposed. > > so yes, you did cause change. We do all kind of things, so in that sense we are doers, but are we the source of that doing? > > > you or time? If you believe you can cause change, then you believe you > > first, there is no such thing as time. there is change. that is it. > time is a concept to make sense of change (cause-effect and so on). > > > Maybe you can't. Simply try this experiment: move your right hand. Was > > it time that caused the hand to move, or was it you? Can you create > > change? > > > > you can. you do it all the time. there are people who deny free will. > you can go to their shop if you like. i can only tell you what i have > found. i walked the same path as you and eventually realized my own > emotional skiving was the problem. > > that is your pain. you don't want that responsibility. you want the > fruits of life but not its responsibilities. > > face life like a warrior. if you haven't heard it, there is a great > audio series from stuart wilde where he talks about being a warrior > and facing up to life. look it up. I have read a few of his books, for example God's Gladiators. I really like his style of describing the human shadow e t c. Having no free will is not the same as having no will at all. Having the One Will is the only true free will that does not lead to conflict. A Course In Miracles explains this in a good way, without saying that the individial has no free will, but contrasts this will with God's Will. To the ego, the idea of having no free will sound really bleak and horrible, and the _idea_ of being choiceless is indeed no happy thought. Therefore expressions like " surrender to God's Will " , or " co-creation with God " and the like can be helpful in the beginning. > > > > > > > if you look to mysticism to escape from these knots, you are falling > > > in the trap again. there is no escape. > > > > No escape? How about free will? > > > > " this " is the way it is. come to peace with it. that is called > " transcendence " (a big word). True peace cannot come through thought I feel. Only grace can bring true peace. The more the thinking mind tries to achieve peace, the more it will continue in its state of conflict. Osho talked about thinking as being only a bridge to intuition, Catherine Ingram talks about being comfortable within one's own skin, and Nukunu talks about a total relaxation of the body. " Thinking is not the only state for humans, and not the highest " -- Eckhart Tolle > > > > > " this world " with its expectations, rewards and punishments is your > > > prarabdha. > > > > In the present moment there is only struggle if you believe you must > > struggle. I am not sure that struggle is needed. Maybe I am fooling > > depends what you mean by struggle. By struggle I mean the internal conflict in body and mind. The " pain body " Eckhart Tolle calls it. > > > myself. I don't know if I have free will or not, but if I do, then so > > far this so called 'free will' really sucks. > > > > what you are saying is the direction and results in your life suck. > that is your life. come to terms with it. > > try to improve it, if you can. for that you have to use your mind and > intelligence. I sense that spiritual teachers are talking about another state of being, and not just some psychotherapy. For example Nukunu said that we have to deal with our psychological problems in appropriate places. Spiritual awakening is a radical transformation that goes beyond the mental/physical. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > you are not the doer, but you still have " to do " . > > Jesus Christ said: I am not doing anything - the Father is working > through me. Maybe the Father is working through us as well, only that > we have ego:s that are illusions of separation. > they said what they said. you have to find your truth for yourself. your thirst can only be satisfied if you drink water. > > > > it is obvious. you know it. everyone does. > > Sages talk about the dropping away of the ego, and then they see > clearly that the ego was a chimera, a phony, false sense of self. > it was false in the sense of a dream. are the sensations in a dream false? yes and no. > > > I have read a few of his books, for example God's Gladiators. I really > like his style of describing the human shadow e t c. > his series " infinite self - 33 steps to " is good. > Having no free will is not the same as having no will at all. Having > the One Will is the only true free will that does not lead to > conflict. A Course In Miracles explains this in a good way, without > saying that the individial has no free will, but contrasts this will > with God's Will. To the ego, the idea of having no free will sound > really bleak and horrible, and the _idea_ of being choiceless is > indeed no happy thought. Therefore expressions like " surrender to > God's Will " , or " co-creation with God " and the like can be helpful in > the beginning. > you have to make choices. whether you have transcended the ego or not. actually as long as you are operating under the memory-ego system your free will is almost non-existent. the first decisive act of free will is when the seeker starts his questioning. only the buddha has the true free will. > > > > " this " is the way it is. come to peace with it. that is called > > " transcendence " (a big word). > > True peace cannot come through thought I feel. Only grace can bring > true peace. The more the thinking mind tries to achieve peace, the how it happens is mysterious. if you don't look for it, you won't find it. but you don't find it because of looking either, because what you find is yourself. when was it that you were not yourself? but gaining that confidence is important. > > I sense that spiritual teachers are talking about another state of > being, and not just some psychotherapy. For example Nukunu said that > we have to deal with our psychological problems in appropriate places. > Spiritual awakening is a radical transformation that goes beyond the > mental/physical. > till your extreme fears and preoccupations subside, arising of confidence in the self is improbable. the transformation is subtle rather than radical. something changes. it is not what you thought it was - which is why it is maybe counterproductive to describe it too much. it is of the nature of emotional maturity. you realize you were mistakenly afraid. and life still goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2005 Report Share Posted March 24, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > you are not the doer, but you still have " to do " . > > > > Jesus Christ said: I am not doing anything - the Father is working > > through me. Maybe the Father is working through us as well, only that > > we have ego:s that are illusions of separation. > > > they said what they said. > > you have to find your truth for yourself. your thirst can only be > satisfied if you drink water. That's true. Right now I am a cloud of fear, a feeling of intense separation. But I also experience a loosening up of contraction in me. Strange really. So much fear coming up through self observation. I guess all that fear has to come up to the surface to be dissolved. > > > > > > > it is obvious. you know it. everyone does. > > > > Sages talk about the dropping away of the ego, and then they see > > clearly that the ego was a chimera, a phony, false sense of self. > > > > it was false in the sense of a dream. are the sensations in a dream > false? yes and no. The sense of dream is real, but there can also, if we are to believe spiritual teachers, a chance of waking up from the dream of separation. > > > > > > > I have read a few of his books, for example God's Gladiators. I really > > like his style of describing the human shadow e t c. > > > > his series " infinite self - 33 steps to " is good. Ok, I will maybe check it out. > > > Having no free will is not the same as having no will at all. Having > > the One Will is the only true free will that does not lead to > > conflict. A Course In Miracles explains this in a good way, without > > saying that the individial has no free will, but contrasts this will > > with God's Will. To the ego, the idea of having no free will sound > > really bleak and horrible, and the _idea_ of being choiceless is > > indeed no happy thought. Therefore expressions like " surrender to > > God's Will " , or " co-creation with God " and the like can be helpful in > > the beginning. > > > > you have to make choices. whether you have transcended the ego or not. > > actually as long as you are operating under the memory-ego system your > free will is almost non-existent. the first decisive act of free will > is when the seeker starts his questioning. > > only the buddha has the true free will. Yes, right now my free will seems very limited and contracted. Like living in a cage. > > > > > > > > " this " is the way it is. come to peace with it. that is called > > > " transcendence " (a big word). > > > > True peace cannot come through thought I feel. Only grace can bring > > true peace. The more the thinking mind tries to achieve peace, the > > how it happens is mysterious. if you don't look for it, you won't find > it. but you don't find it because of looking either, because what you > find is yourself. > > when was it that you were not yourself? > > but gaining that confidence is important. True confidence goes together with liberation I think. As long as there is a strong feeling of separation, fear will run my life, and any kind of pretended confidence will only be a hardened shell around that fear. > > > > > I sense that spiritual teachers are talking about another state of > > being, and not just some psychotherapy. For example Nukunu said that > > we have to deal with our psychological problems in appropriate places. > > Spiritual awakening is a radical transformation that goes beyond the > > mental/physical. > > > > till your extreme fears and preoccupations subside, arising of > confidence in the self is improbable. > > the transformation is subtle rather than radical. something changes. > it is not what you thought it was - which is why it is maybe > counterproductive to describe it too much. it is of the nature of > emotional maturity. you realize you were mistakenly afraid. and life > still goes on. I believe my own free will must align itself with God's Will, then there will be just one will. I will have to struggle with my own separate free will until I find balance. It is not that my free will will dissolve into a big Will, but rather that my will and the larger Will must become integrated to act in harmony and union. The idea that " I am not doing anything, God is the only doer " is silly to the extreme. That kind of idea is still separation. When the separation dissolves, then maybe the phrase " God is the only doer " will make sense. But until it does, the idea of having no free will is a misconception I agree. /AL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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