Guest guest Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " garyfalk1943 " <falkgw@h...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , Harsha wrote: > > > Thanks Gary for giving this link. These things with gurus appear to > > > occur on a consistent basis with predictable certainty. > > > > > > garyfalk1943 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " > > > > <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > > > >>> what happened in kovalam?>> > > > > > > > > Here's what happened in Kovalam: > > > > > > > > http://www.inner-quest.org/Real_Advaita.htm > > > > > > **** > > > > The thing that really blows my mind is that I left my original guru > > after being very close to him for 10 years b/c I found out that he > > was a complete fraud, who liked young yoginis and LOTS of money, just > > like the cads in the so-called " Outer World " . > > > > they have spread this rumour that awakening is a BIG thing. that it is > very rare. that it comes after SO much hard work. > > just like our fantasies of extreme wealth. > > they are just preying on our feelings of lack of wholeness. > > believe me, finding a good guru is a stroke of extreme good luck. if > you go around looking for one you will likely find charlatans. > > in general i would say it is not worth it. sooner or later as one > matures a teacher will appear who will clarify the confusion. it is > important for the student to have the ability to discriminate between > charlatans and geniune ones. > > also, to discriminate between teachings which make sense, and > teachings which are tools for self-deceptiona and emotional manipulation.>> It's very hard to discriminate between teachings which make sense and teachings which are tools for manipulation by the guru when you are asked, as a disciple, to surrender unconditionally at the lotus feet of the master. Any doubts or questions are considered " attacks by the Hostile Forces " , etc. etc. It's all too easy to get caught up in the " get out of your mind and into your heart " admonition that greets EVERY concern you might have as to " what's REALLY goin' on here, anyway? " My ex-guru used to tell the story of how Krishna once pointed to the moon and asked Arjuna what he saw. Whatever Arjuna saw for himself was quickly negated by Krishna who told him the moon was actually blue or whatever. Arjuna then says to Krishna something to the effect that, " Well Lord, if you say the moon is blue, then that's what it must be. My own self may deceive me, but never my REAL self, who is none but you, " etc. etc. and blah blah blah. " Now that's a REAL disciple, " he would say, " you people are just wimps, sychophants, beggars, and cow-dung, horse-shit nobodies " , or words to that effect. " Where's my Arjuna? Who will be my Arjuna? " So then, if you DO happen to walk in at a bad moment and catch the guru " in the act of being himself " either with a yogini or two or counting up his hard-earned cash, he can always pull one of the classic lines: " Don't be fooled by mere sense perception. What I am doing here is wiping out 100s of incarnations worth of bad karma from my spiritual child. Of course this kind of operation is more " hands on " and " labor intensive " than is your average, everyday, blessing. " You turn around, completely perplexed, only to have sappy, spineless disciples tell you things like, " His ways are Higher than our ways, " , or as Toomey says, " the ways of the East are inscrutable " and that kind of ca-ca. " Hi, my name is Gary. I'm a recovering bhakta. I haven't meditated on my guru's picture nor sent him any " love offerings " for 60 whole days. " " Congratulations, Gary. Keep coming back. It works if you work it. Just take it one day at a time. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 Nisargadatta , " garyfalk1943 " <falkgw@h...> wrote: > > > in general i would say it is not worth it. sooner or later as one > > matures a teacher will appear who will clarify the confusion. it is > > important for the student to have the ability to discriminate > between > > charlatans and geniune ones. > > > > also, to discriminate between teachings which make sense, and > > teachings which are tools for self-deceptiona and emotional > manipulation.>> > > It's very hard to discriminate between teachings which make sense > and teachings which are tools for manipulation by the guru when you > are asked, as a disciple, to surrender unconditionally at the lotus > feet of the master. > > Any doubts or questions are considered " attacks by the Hostile > Forces " , etc. etc. > > It's all too easy to get caught up in the " get out of your mind and > into your heart " admonition that greets EVERY concern you might have > as to " what's REALLY goin' on here, anyway? " > this business of gurus started in india. it seems to have worked ok there because of cultural contexts, and that the gurus were part of the larger family clan. they had known the families for generations - the students were like their own children. now even there it seems to be failing, as the country westernizes. particularly the west is not suited to guru idea. the guru holds immense power over the minds of his students and in today's world. when your mileage varies a _lot_ , so much power is not a good idea. a teacher is supposed to be a compassionate guide. on the other extreme is the priest, a professional manipulator and middleman. most gurus today seem to be priests rather than spiritual guides. > > " Where's my Arjuna? Who will be my Arjuna? " > Arjuna had a guide like Krishna. This guru equates himself to Krishna? You get what you deserve? there is a line in the guru-gita which says one gets the guru one expects. if one wants to do politics, one will get that. yoga-vaishishtha and other texts also say the student should test the guru and not submit to whims. but these are just texts. the problem is the student wants to lose her free will and common sense because she wants to escape from the burdens of the world. this escapism ends badly. > So then, if you DO happen to walk in at a bad moment and catch the > guru " in the act of being himself " either with a yogini or two or > counting up his hard-earned cash, he can always pull one of the > classic lines: > > " Don't be fooled by mere sense perception. What I am doing here is > wiping out 100s of incarnations worth of bad karma from my spiritual > child. Of course this kind of operation is more " hands on " > and " labor intensive " than is your average, everyday, blessing. " > > You turn around, completely perplexed, only to have sappy, spineless > disciples tell you things like, " His ways are Higher than our > ways, " , or as Toomey says, " the ways of the East are inscrutable " > and that kind of ca-ca. > it is a bit more complex than that. most disciples are not interested in the real stuff. they are carrying on their old politics, gossip, idol-worship (of the guru), superstition, manipulations as before. that is why most are happy being manipulated. a few intelligent or sensitive ones might come to their senses and escape. every creature here is struggling for survival. these people prey on these fears. the life-struggle will not be different for the yogi. only the internal vexations of the yogi will be mostly cured. once a hare krishna was telling me " you surrender your will to krishna and do what he wants " , so i asked " how do i know krishna's will? " . the reply was " spiritual master will tell you that. " the spiritual master was just out of jail, convicted of murder. i chuckled and did not ask any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 - hemantbhai100 Nisargadatta Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:54 AM Re: Bhaktas Anonymous Nisargadatta , " garyfalk1943 " <falkgw@h...> wrote: > > > in general i would say it is not worth it. sooner or later as one > > matures a teacher will appear who will clarify the confusion. it is > > important for the student to have the ability to discriminate > between > > charlatans and geniune ones. > > > > also, to discriminate between teachings which make sense, and > > teachings which are tools for self-deceptiona and emotional > manipulation.>> > > It's very hard to discriminate between teachings which make sense > and teachings which are tools for manipulation by the guru when you > are asked, as a disciple, to surrender unconditionally at the lotus > feet of the master. > > Any doubts or questions are considered " attacks by the Hostile > Forces " , etc. etc. > > It's all too easy to get caught up in the " get out of your mind and > into your heart " admonition that greets EVERY concern you might have > as to " what's REALLY goin' on here, anyway? " > this business of gurus started in india. it seems to have worked ok there because of cultural contexts, and that the gurus were part of the larger family clan. they had known the families for generations - the students were like their own children. now even there it seems to be failing, as the country westernizes. particularly the west is not suited to guru idea. the guru holds immense power over the minds of his students and in today's world. when your mileage varies a _lot_ , so much power is not a good idea. a teacher is supposed to be a compassionate guide. on the other extreme is the priest, a professional manipulator and middleman. most gurus today seem to be priests rather than spiritual guides. > > " Where's my Arjuna? Who will be my Arjuna? " > Arjuna had a guide like Krishna. This guru equates himself to Krishna? You get what you deserve? there is a line in the guru-gita which says one gets the guru one expects. if one wants to do politics, one will get that. yoga-vaishishtha and other texts also say the student should test the guru and not submit to whims. but these are just texts. the problem is the student wants to lose her free will and common sense because she wants to escape from the burdens of the world. this escapism ends badly. > So then, if you DO happen to walk in at a bad moment and catch the > guru " in the act of being himself " either with a yogini or two or > counting up his hard-earned cash, he can always pull one of the > classic lines: > > " Don't be fooled by mere sense perception. What I am doing here is > wiping out 100s of incarnations worth of bad karma from my spiritual > child. Of course this kind of operation is more " hands on " > and " labor intensive " than is your average, everyday, blessing. " > > You turn around, completely perplexed, only to have sappy, spineless > disciples tell you things like, " His ways are Higher than our > ways, " , or as Toomey says, " the ways of the East are inscrutable " > and that kind of ca-ca. > it is a bit more complex than that. most disciples are not interested in the real stuff. they are carrying on their old politics, gossip, idol-worship (of the guru), superstition, manipulations as before. that is why most are happy being manipulated. a few intelligent or sensitive ones might come to their senses and escape. every creature here is struggling for survival. these people prey on these fears. the life-struggle will not be different for the yogi. only the internal vexations of the yogi will be mostly cured. once a hare krishna was telling me " you surrender your will to krishna and do what he wants " , so i asked " how do i know krishna's will? " . the reply was " spiritual master will tell you that. " the spiritual master was just out of jail, convicted of murder. i chuckled and did not ask any more. perhaps, in the general scheme of 'things as they are', that is the perfection of the ways of 'gurus' and the ways of 'seekers'. ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 Dear Gary, I feel your pain. Ten years is a long time to be with a guru like that and so it speaks highly of you as a bhakta. Anyway, I love your writing style. It reminds me of the energy and humor of Jerry Katz (in the early years). Would you consider writing something along the lines below for my online magazine. The next volume is almost ready but something good and spicy and insightful and humorous is always welcome. I love that line, " Where is my Arjuna? " Love to all Harsha /join Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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