Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Our experience of time depends to a large degree on situation and what we are experiencing. Sometimes time seems to fly by when we are involved in some activity, and several hours can feel like just a very short period of time has passed. In other situation, such as waiting for something, time can seem to flow slowly. Imagine waiting in a line in a supermarket for half an hour, for example. Then there is the idea of time in combination with thinking and planning. We have a good sense of how long time a week is, an hour, a year, and so on. But this sense of time is more like a feeling than actual time. We can call this feeling psychological time. Our sense of psychological time is deeply rooted in our being which probably goes down through evolution all the way back to where life first appeared here on earth some 3 billion years ago. But it is also a fact that the human brain has a great plasticity; neurons can be rewired in a massive and fast manner. Also it is true that we remember more of the most recent past than events that happened further back in time. The so called short-term memory holds more information per time period than long-term memory. The ordinary way the human mind perceives time is in a linear fashion, i.e. one week that happened one year ago feels more or less to be the same length as another week that happened two years ago. There is a slight deviation from this linearity by the fact that as we grow older, time seems to pass more quickly. This has probably to do with the learning capacity of the brain. Also, two weeks of traveling to foreign places on a vacation feels longer than an ordinary week at work. And this has probably to do with an inreased amount of new experiences and situations during a vacation (to another country for example) compared to an ordinary week at work. An interesting question is if this sense of psychological time can be altered so that time is experienced in a nonlinear fashion. I believe it can. This means that the brain and the nervous system, and possibly every cell in the body, can be rewired, reprogrammed to sense time in a different way. Memories are in fact timeless, and it is the emotional connection to these memories which determines how time is experienced. My idea is that if the sense of time were to be gathered around the present moment, then past and future would become lighter, less heavy. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta My idea is that if the sense of time were to be gathered around the present moment, then past and future would become lighter, less heavy. al. Good Morning Al, That's just it. An idea. There is always only Now. Any memory carried from the past is a burden, any thought projected into the future is wishful (magical) thinking. Only Now holds Freedom. Only Now emanates Peace. Only Now hears the Silence of I Am. Only Now holds the stuff of Life, the glue, if you will, Love. a. ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > My idea is that if the sense of time were to be gathered > around the present moment, then past and future would become lighter, > less heavy. > > al. > > > > > Good Morning Al, > > That's just it. An idea. There is always only Now. Any memory carried from the past is a burden, > any thought projected into the future > is wishful (magical) thinking. > > Only Now holds Freedom. Only Now emanates Peace. Only Now hears the Silence of I Am. Only Now holds the stuff of Life, the glue, if you will, Love. > > a. > You are talking about gathering _all_ time in the present moment. That's advanced miracle stuff. The very idea of such realization of time lies on the threshold of Illumination! :-) al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Wednesday, April 06, 2005 7:42 AM Re: Psychological Time Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > My idea is that if the sense of time were to be gathered > around the present moment, then past and future would become lighter, > less heavy. > > al. > > > > > Good Morning Al, > > That's just it. An idea. There is always only Now. Any memory carried from the past is a burden, > any thought projected into the future > is wishful (magical) thinking. > > Only Now holds Freedom. Only Now emanates Peace. Only Now hears the Silence of I Am. Only Now holds the stuff of Life, the glue, if you will, Love. > > a. > You are talking about gathering _all_ time in the present moment. That's advanced miracle stuff. The very idea of such realization of time lies on the threshold of Illumination! :-) al. How'd we ever get the idea that there is anything else but Now? Do you suppose it had anything to do with Survival? a. ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 _____ Anna Ruiz [nli10u] Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:56 AM Nisargadatta Re: Psychological Time - anders_lindman Nisargadatta My idea is that if the sense of time were to be gathered around the present moment, then past and future would become lighter, less heavy. al. Good Morning Al, That's just it. An idea. There is always only Now. Any memory carried from the past is a burden, any thought projected into the future is wishful (magical) thinking. Only Now holds Freedom. Only Now emanates Peace. Only Now hears the Silence of I Am. Only Now holds the stuff of Life, the glue, if you will, Love. a. ** [Clay] Anna, well said. Al, upon acceptance and belief that NOW is all there is, that is to say, upon awakening, memories and projections of the future become precisely that - lighter and less heavy, almost non-existent - unless you awaken fully in the first instance, in which case (perhaps) they no longer exist at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Wednesday, April 06, 2005 7:42 AM > Re: Psychological Time > > > > Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > > - > > anders_lindman > > Nisargadatta > > My idea is that if the sense of time were to be gathered > > around the present moment, then past and future would become lighter, > > less heavy. > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > Good Morning Al, > > > > That's just it. An idea. There is always only Now. Any memory > carried from the past is a burden, > > any thought projected into the future > > is wishful (magical) thinking. > > > > Only Now holds Freedom. Only Now emanates Peace. Only Now hears > the Silence of I Am. Only Now holds the stuff of Life, the glue, if > you will, Love. > > > > a. > > > > You are talking about gathering _all_ time in the present moment. > That's advanced miracle stuff. The very idea of such realization of > time lies on the threshold of Illumination! :-) > > al. > > > > How'd we ever get the idea that there is anything else but Now? > > Do you suppose it had anything to do with Survival? > > > a. > Future is a strange thing. We can never be there, yet they tell us we will die in the future! )))) al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Clay Spencer " <clay.spencer@v...> wrote: > > > > > _____ > > Anna Ruiz [nli10u@c...] > Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:56 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: Psychological Time > > > > > - > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > My idea is that if the sense of time were to be gathered > around the present moment, then past and future would become lighter, > less heavy. > > al. > > > > > Good Morning Al, > > That's just it. An idea. There is always only Now. Any memory carried > from the past is a burden, > any thought projected into the future > is wishful (magical) thinking. > > Only Now holds Freedom. Only Now emanates Peace. Only Now hears the > Silence of I Am. Only Now holds the stuff of Life, the glue, if you will, > Love. > > a. > > > ** > > [Clay] Anna, well said. > > > > Al, upon acceptance and belief that NOW is all there is, that is to say, > upon awakening, memories and projections of the future become precisely > that - lighter and less heavy, almost non-existent - unless you awaken fully > in the first instance, in which case (perhaps) they no longer exist at all. > > Hi Clay, There is heaviness in the now because of past and future. Or, as Eckhart Tolle said: " You carry a lot around " , and he also said: " People walk around with a heavy future hanging over their heads...........that means it's a burden to just be alive!... " " Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. " -- Matthew 11 al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: An interesting question is if this sense of psychological time can be altered so that time is experienced in a nonlinear fashion. I believe it can. This means that the brain and the nervous system, and possibly every cell in the body, can be rewired, reprogrammed to sense time in a different way. Memories are in fact timeless, and it is the emotional connection to these memories which determines how time is experienced. My idea is that if the sense of time were to be gathered around the present moment, then past and future would become lighter, less heavy. al. Hi Anders, As you know, I drop in from time on your musings and inner travels and mappings. Time has has always been a concern and it was on a post of yours about time that I fisrt offered two cents on this list. So Time is here again and so let me have a word on it. Time is a concept. The sense of time is a mediated experience that occurs through the notice, calcualtion or use of a concept of time (nanoseonds, milliseconds seconds, minutes, hours) in measuring, adding, subtracting etc. in the movement from T1 to Tx and an activity of any kind. Time " flies " when the concept of time is dropped, unassumed, not noticed, obscured by the complete focus on the activity alone. Time " drags " when the activity is clearly interrupted regularly, intermittently, etc. by a distraction or other activity during which there is a noticing of the duration of T1 to Tx or even the noticing of Location 1 to Location 2 that is related to a time span such as traveling on a train from Station S to Station Z which takes 30 minutes and so on. If any activity is focused upon without noticing time concepts of any sort, then time is extinguished in experience, it disappears, flies, and so on since there are no time orientation features, time concepts, employed to mediate time passage. So how can one drop time concepts during mundane activities to experience timelessness? There are many ways that this can be done. In all cases the time concepts and calculation is absent, otherwise it enters and then there is past present and future. Trying to get to the " Now " is impossible because " Now " is a time concept is empty. To experience the " Now " is simply to be fully engaged in whatever is in front of you. When I write a post without distraction time is absent for me. How is it with you. If full engagement is not possible because of the intrusion of thoughts and other inner distractions then knowing how to deal with these is helpful. Anders, have you explored how a thought is created? Or how you can simply create whatever thought you want or do not want. Or how to have thoughts float by without the sensation of chasing them or having to add to them, multiplying them or for them to contradict and confuse? Or how to " forcibly " cease thoughts? Or how the cessation of thoughts can occur? Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 In a message dated 4/6/05 9:22:37 AM, lbb10 writes: > As Toombaru says, " Mountains are > slowing moving dirt. " > P: Coming to the the rescue of Toomb's best poetic sentence ever! " Mountains are slow moving waves of dirt. " We got to accurately save that one for posterity. We don't want that one to be adulterated like this one from J. C. " Piss on the poor because they shall inherit the dirt. " Well, if powerful Christians forgot the letter of that saying, at least, they have been following its spirit all along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > An interesting question is if this sense of > psychological time can be altered so that time is > experienced in a nonlinear fashion. I believe it can. > This means that the brain and the nervous system, and > possibly every cell in the body, can be rewired, > reprogrammed to sense time in a different way. > Memories are in fact timeless, and it is the emotional > connection to these memories which determines how time > is experienced. My idea is that if the sense of time > were to be gathered around the present moment, then > past and future would become lighter, less heavy. > > al. > > Hi Anders, > > As you know, I drop in from time on your musings and > inner travels and mappings. Time has has always been a > concern and it was on a post of yours about time that > I fisrt offered two cents on this list. So Time is > here again and so let me have a word on it. > > Time is a concept. The sense of time is a mediated > experience that occurs through the notice, calcualtion > or use of a concept of time (nanoseonds, milliseconds > seconds, minutes, hours) in measuring, adding, > subtracting etc. in the movement from T1 to Tx and an > activity of any kind. Time " flies " when the concept of > time is dropped, unassumed, not noticed, obscured by > the complete focus on the activity alone. Time " drags " > when the activity is clearly interrupted regularly, > intermittently, etc. by a distraction or other > activity during which there is a noticing of the > duration of T1 to Tx or even the noticing of Location > 1 to Location 2 that is related to a time span such as > traveling on a train from Station S to Station Z which > takes 30 minutes and so on. > > If any activity is focused upon without noticing time > concepts of any sort, then time is extinguished in > experience, it disappears, flies, and so on since > there are no time orientation features, time concepts, > employed to mediate time passage. > > So how can one drop time concepts during mundane > activities to experience timelessness? > > There are many ways that this can be done. In all > cases the time concepts and calculation is absent, > otherwise it enters and then there is past present and > future. > > Trying to get to the " Now " is impossible because " Now " > is a time concept is empty. To experience the " Now " is > simply to be fully engaged in whatever is in front of > you. When I write a post without distraction time is > absent for me. How is it with you. > > If full engagement is not possible because of the > intrusion of thoughts and other inner distractions > then knowing how to deal with these is helpful. > > Anders, have you explored how a thought is created? > > Or how you can simply create whatever thought you want > or do not want. Or how to have thoughts float by > without the sensation of chasing them or having to > add to them, multiplying them or for them to > contradict and confuse? Or how to " forcibly " cease > thoughts? Or how the cessation of thoughts can occur? > > Lewis > > Hi Lewis, I am only in a state of observing my thoughts when I remember to do so. The tendency is that this kind of observing thoughts occur more and more frequently. To say that I can control thoughts is probably not entirely correct. I am often aware of my thoughts and that provides for a better understanding of how thought operates and how it is linked with emotion. Obviously now when I write I am also observing my thoughts, because it's hard not to do so once one is writing about this subject. At other times I am not aware of my thoughts while writing. My idea of altering psychological time is to change the very roots of how time is experienced. For example, when I plan what I shall do next day, then there is simultaneously a sense of how long time each task that is planned takes, and together with that a feeling of how much effort is required to perform each task. If I have to do something I would rather not do, but I have to do in order manage my life, then the very _idea_ of the effort that will be needed makes me tired! An obvious proof that psychological time can effect me very strongly. If I could think about the future without that heavy yoke, then it would be a tremendous relief. And fear also comes in to a large extent in planning for the future. This great burden is clealy a psychological phenomenon, and some massive rewiring of nerons should be able to ease this burden. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Excellent post, Lewis! cordially, Kip Almazy -- In Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > An interesting question is if this sense of > psychological time can be altered so that time is > experienced in a nonlinear fashion. I believe it can. > This means that the brain and the nervous system, and > possibly every cell in the body, can be rewired, > reprogrammed to sense time in a different way. > Memories are in fact timeless, and it is the emotional > connection to these memories which determines how time > is experienced. My idea is that if the sense of time > were to be gathered around the present moment, then > past and future would become lighter, less heavy. > > al. > > Hi Anders, > > As you know, I drop in from time on your musings and > inner travels and mappings. Time has has always been a > concern and it was on a post of yours about time that > I fisrt offered two cents on this list. So Time is > here again and so let me have a word on it. > > Time is a concept. The sense of time is a mediated > experience that occurs through the notice, calcualtion > or use of a concept of time (nanoseonds, milliseconds > seconds, minutes, hours) in measuring, adding, > subtracting etc. in the movement from T1 to Tx and an > activity of any kind. Time " flies " when the concept of > time is dropped, unassumed, not noticed, obscured by > the complete focus on the activity alone. Time " drags " > when the activity is clearly interrupted regularly, > intermittently, etc. by a distraction or other > activity during which there is a noticing of the > duration of T1 to Tx or even the noticing of Location > 1 to Location 2 that is related to a time span such as > traveling on a train from Station S to Station Z which > takes 30 minutes and so on. > > If any activity is focused upon without noticing time > concepts of any sort, then time is extinguished in > experience, it disappears, flies, and so on since > there are no time orientation features, time concepts, > employed to mediate time passage. > > So how can one drop time concepts during mundane > activities to experience timelessness? > > There are many ways that this can be done. In all > cases the time concepts and calculation is absent, > otherwise it enters and then there is past present and > future. > > Trying to get to the " Now " is impossible because " Now " > is a time concept is empty. To experience the " Now " is > simply to be fully engaged in whatever is in front of > you. When I write a post without distraction time is > absent for me. How is it with you. > > If full engagement is not possible because of the > intrusion of thoughts and other inner distractions > then knowing how to deal with these is helpful. > > Anders, have you explored how a thought is created? > > Or how you can simply create whatever thought you want > or do not want. Or how to have thoughts float by > without the sensation of chasing them or having to > add to them, multiplying them or for them to > contradict and confuse? Or how to " forcibly " cease > thoughts? Or how the cessation of thoughts can occur? > > Lewis > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10: --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman: An interesting question is if this sense of psychological time can be altered so that time is experienced in a nonlinear fashion. I believe it can. This means that the brain and the nervous system, and possibly every cell in the body, can be rewired, reprogrammed to sense time in a different way. Memories are in fact timeless, and it is the emotional connection to these memories which determines how time is experienced. My idea is that if the sense of time were to be gathered around the present moment, then past and future would become lighter, less heavy. al. Hi Anders, As you know, I drop in from time on your musings and inner travels and mappings. Time has has always been a concern and it was on a post of yours about time that I fisrt offered two cents on this list. So Time is here again and so let me have a word on it. Time is a concept. The sense of time is a mediated experience that occurs through the notice, calcualtion or use of a concept of time (nanoseonds, milliseconds seconds, minutes, hours) in measuring, adding, subtracting etc. in the movement from T1 to Tx and an activity of any kind. Time " flies " when the concept of time is dropped, unassumed, not noticed, obscured by the complete focus on the activity alone. Time " drags " when the activity is clearly interrupted regularly, intermittently, etc. by a distraction or other activity during which there is a noticing of the duration of T1 to Tx or even the noticing of Location 1 to Location 2 that is related to a time span such as traveling on a train from Station S to Station Z which takes 30 minutes and so on. If any activity is focused upon without noticing time concepts of any sort, then time is extinguished in experience, it disappears, flies, and so on since there are no time orientation features, time concepts, employed to mediate time passage. So how can one drop time concepts during mundane activities to experience timelessness? There are many ways that this can be done. In all cases the time concepts and calculation is absent, otherwise it enters and then there is past present and future. Trying to get to the " Now " is impossible because " Now " is a time concept is empty. To experience the " Now " is simply to be fully engaged in whatever is in front of you. When I write a post without distraction time is absent for me. How is it with you. If full engagement is not possible because of the intrusion of thoughts and other inner distractions then knowing how to deal with these is helpful. Anders, have you explored how a thought is created? Or how you can simply create whatever thought you want or do not want. Or how to have thoughts float by without the sensation of chasing them or having to add to them, multiplying them or for them to contradict and confuse? Or how to " forcibly " cease thoughts? Or how the cessation of thoughts can occur? Lewis Hi Lewis, I am only in a state of observing my thoughts when I remember to do so. The tendency is that this kind of observing thoughts occur more and more frequently. To say that I can control thoughts is probably not entirely correct. I am often aware of my thoughts and that provides for a better understanding of how thought operates and how it is linked with emotion. Obviously now when I write I am also observing my thoughts, because it's hard not to do so once one is writing about this subject. At other times I am not aware of my thoughts while writing. Lewis: At some point it may be helpful to understand the simple process of thought production, that is, how thought are produced about anything. My idea of altering psychological time is to change the very roots of how time is experienced. For example, when I plan what I shall do next day, then there is simultaneously a sense of how long time each task that is planned takes, and together with that a feeling of how much effort is required to perform each task. If I have to do something I would rather not do, but I have to do in order manage my life, then the very _idea_ of the effort that will be needed makes me tired! An obvious proof that psychological time can effect me very strongly. If I could think about the future without that heavy yoke, then it would be a tremendous relief. And fear also comes in to a large extent in planning for the future. This great burden is clealy a psychological phenomenon, and some massive rewiring of nerons should be able to ease this burden. al. Hi Anders, Time management can be made simple or otherwise. Planning is one activity and doing the activity is another activity. All is activity in one way or another is it not? Even sitting quietly is activity. So that is out of the way. The appearances cannot help but be active. It is the nature of life to be active to flow along. As Toombaru says, " Mountains are slowing moving dirt. " In your description, all the calculations of effort, pleasantness or unpleasantness in " doing " or " rather not do " ing things, those required and not required or have to do and not have to do have nothing to do with " time " unless you mix them in together. These are internal distractions and interruptions that take away from simply doing activities that face one in a day. Whether a kid or an ant or president or shoemaker or seamstress, we do. Grasping and clinging to what is pleasurable and unpleasurable, easy and difficult, effortless and effortful, responsibility and irresponsibility, required and not required contributes to a feverish attention to, calculation of , and subsequent amount and sense of time one is going to be engaged in this way or that. Grasping and clinging to the how one feels and thinks about something that is to be done allows activities to feel as if they drag on and on or the sense that they will and/or the anticipation of the angst over it and the angst over it before a thing is done at all instead of just doing it " wid de flo of it mon.! " Why and how long will I have to do this tedious and unpleasant work? " Do I have to spend so much time on this stuff I would rather not do? If I do not do it then what will happen? I will have to make time to do it any way.....and so on. The heavy yoke and burden of modern life in this regard, seems to be the grasping and clinging to what is pleasurable and unpleasurable, easy and difficult, effortless and effortful, responsibility and irresponsibility in what one faces in a day. Time seems to emerge as a calculation of the duration of anticipated or actual suffering imagined to be coming up and is created by the grasping and clinging to what is pleasurable and unpleasurable, easy and difficult, effortless and effortful, responsibility and irresponsibility. What would happen to the sense of time if there were no grasping and clinging to that stuff? Activities would be done smoothly and efficiently and the gatherings at the water cooler or coffee bar in the office would not be about work avoidance and complaining but having a cool drink of water or pleasant cup of coffee with others as a continuation of things well done (or some other pie in the sky ideal notion of modern society or on goin' wid de flo mon, no need fi worry! Raatid! Nuh!) Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess > <lbb10@c...: --- anders_lindman > <anders_lindman: > > An interesting question is if this sense of > psychological time can be altered so that time is > experienced in a nonlinear fashion. I believe it can. > This means that the brain and the nervous system, and > possibly every cell in the body, can be rewired, > reprogrammed to sense time in a different way. > Memories are in fact timeless, and it is the emotional > connection to these memories which determines how time > is experienced. My idea is that if the sense of time > were to be gathered around the present moment, then > past and future would become lighter, less heavy. > > al. > > Hi Anders, > > As you know, I drop in from time on your musings and > inner travels and mappings. Time has has always been a > concern and it was on a post of yours about time that > I fisrt offered two cents on this list. So Time is > here again and so let me have a word on it. > > Time is a concept. The sense of time is a mediated > experience that occurs through the notice, calcualtion > or use of a concept of time (nanoseonds, milliseconds > seconds, minutes, hours) in measuring, adding, > subtracting etc. in the movement from T1 to Tx and an > activity of any kind. Time " flies " when the concept of > time is dropped, unassumed, not noticed, obscured by > the complete focus on the activity alone. Time " drags " > when the activity is clearly interrupted regularly, > intermittently, etc. by a distraction or other > activity during which there is a noticing of the > duration of T1 to Tx or even the noticing of Location > 1 to Location 2 that is related to a time span such as > traveling on a train from Station S to Station Z which > takes 30 minutes and so on. > > If any activity is focused upon without noticing time > concepts of any sort, then time is extinguished in > experience, it disappears, flies, and so on since > there are no time orientation features, time concepts, > employed to mediate time passage. > > So how can one drop time concepts during mundane > activities to experience timelessness? > > There are many ways that this can be done. In all > cases the time concepts and calculation is absent, > otherwise it enters and then there is past present and > future. > > Trying to get to the " Now " is impossible because " Now " > is a time concept is empty. To experience the " Now " is > simply to be fully engaged in whatever is in front of > you. When I write a post without distraction time is > absent for me. How is it with you. > > If full engagement is not possible because of the > intrusion of thoughts and other inner distractions > then knowing how to deal with these is helpful. > > Anders, have you explored how a thought is created? > > Or how you can simply create whatever thought you want > or do not want. Or how to have thoughts float by > without the sensation of chasing them or having to > add to them, multiplying them or for them to > contradict and confuse? Or how to " forcibly " cease > thoughts? Or how the cessation of thoughts can occur? > > Lewis > > > > Hi Lewis, > > I am only in a state of observing my thoughts when I > remember to do so. The tendency is that this kind of > observing thoughts occur more and more frequently. To > say that I can control thoughts is probably not > entirely correct. I am often aware of my thoughts and > that provides for a better understanding of how > thought operates and how it is linked with emotion. > > Obviously now when I write I am also observing my > thoughts, because it's hard not to do so once one is > writing about this subject. At other times I am not > aware of my thoughts while writing. > > > Lewis: At some point it may be helpful to understand > the simple process of thought production, that is, how > thought are produced about anything. > > > My idea of altering psychological time is to change > the very roots of how time is experienced. For > example, when I plan what I shall do next day, then > there is simultaneously a sense of how long time each > task that is planned takes, and together with that a > feeling of how much effort is required to perform each > task. If I have to do something I would rather not do, > but I have to do in order manage my life, then the > very _idea_ of the effort that will be needed makes me > tired! An obvious proof that psychological time can > effect me very strongly. If I could think about the > future without that heavy yoke, then it would be a > tremendous relief. And fear also comes in to a large > extent in planning for the future. This great burden > is clealy a psychological phenomenon, and some massive > rewiring of nerons should be able to ease this burden. > > al. > > > Hi Anders, > > Time management can be made simple or otherwise. > Planning is one activity and doing the activity is > another activity. All is activity in one way or > another is it not? Even sitting quietly is activity. > So that is out of the way. The appearances cannot help > but be active. It is the nature of life to be active > to flow along. As Toombaru says, " Mountains are > slowing moving dirt. " > > In your description, all the calculations of effort, > pleasantness or unpleasantness in " doing " or " rather > not do " ing things, those required and not required or > have to do and not have to do have nothing to do with > " time " unless you mix them in together. These are > internal distractions and interruptions that take away > from simply doing activities that face one in a day. > Whether a kid or an ant or president or shoemaker or > seamstress, we do. > > Grasping and clinging to what is pleasurable and > unpleasurable, easy and difficult, effortless and > effortful, responsibility and irresponsibility, > required and not required contributes to a feverish > attention to, calculation of , and subsequent amount > and sense of time one is going to be engaged in this > way or that. Grasping and clinging to the how one > feels and thinks about something that is to be done > allows activities to feel as if they drag on and on or > the sense that they will and/or the anticipation of > the angst over it and the angst over it before a thing > is done at all instead of just doing it " wid de flo of > it mon.! > > " Why and how long will I have to do this tedious and > unpleasant work? " Do I have to spend so much time on > this stuff I would rather not do? If I do not do it > then what will happen? I will have to make time to do > it any way.....and so on. The heavy yoke and burden of > modern life in this regard, seems to be the grasping > and clinging to what is pleasurable and unpleasurable, > easy and difficult, effortless and effortful, > responsibility and irresponsibility in what one faces > in a day. Time seems to emerge as a calculation of the > duration of anticipated or actual suffering imagined > to be coming up and is created by the grasping and > clinging to what is pleasurable and unpleasurable, > easy and difficult, effortless and effortful, > responsibility and irresponsibility. What would happen > to the sense of time if there were no grasping and > clinging to that stuff? Activities would be done > smoothly and efficiently and the gatherings at the > water cooler or coffee bar in the office would not be > about work avoidance and complaining but having a cool > drink of water or pleasant cup of coffee with others > as a continuation of things well done (or some other > pie in the sky ideal notion of modern society or on > goin' wid de flo mon, no need fi worry! Raatid! Nuh!) > > Lewis > > The problem is that there is worry about not being worried. What if the angst and worry is needed? I cannot pretend not to be worried. Well, perhaps I could, but that would be silly, wouldn't it? al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 --- kipalmazy <kipalmazy wrote: > > > Excellent post, Lewis! > > cordially, > Kip Almazy Hi Kip, Thank you Kip. Are you familiar with John F. Kihlstrom? I came across an online article, " The Rediscovery of the Unconscious, " written by him that surveys and summarizes current notions of the unconscious. Lacan is absent since Lacan did not describe the unconscious with enough detail to warrant inclusion in Kihlstrom works which favors experimental psychology and the findings in that branch. Kihlstrom likes to sit at the line between conscious awareness and that immediately and at some depth below it. He cannot plunge into the " abyss; " that would be going to far for him. Yet he likes to play around that line where there are recognizable and inferrable emergences of influences and effects originating in what he and others refer to as " implicit perception, implicit awareness, implict learning, implicit memory, and implicit thought and implict emotion. " For Kihlstrom, the unconscious he is interested in is the what he calls the cognitive unconscious that are comprised of four categories of phenomena: implicit perception, memory, learning, and thought. There is also an emotional unconscious as well. Most of the studies he uses in the survey refer to findings related to amnesic syndrome, priming effects, blindsight, posthypnotic amnesia, reversibility of amnesia, posthypnotic amnesia, hypnotic suggestion, and posthypnotic suggestion. If you are unfamiliar with it, you can review the survey article at the link provided below. http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/rediscovery.htm His article on the emotional unconscious can be found here: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/apa98a.htm It would seem that the " implicit " aspect of living is overlooked here even though most of daily living is carried out in this way. What we imagine in " surface awareness " is a dim light to what is known and accomplished implicitly in the dark. The attention to internal surface phenomena without being on the " lip " of where it emerges from allows contributes to the uncommonality of realizing what is always pointed to.... The symbolic and imaginary worlds of Lacan may be seen to gain additional foundations. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: Anders: The problem is that there is worry about not being worried. What if the angst and worry is needed? I cannot pretend not to be worried. Well, perhaps I could, but that would be silly, wouldn't it? al. Lewis: Perhaps it is needed. Only the worrier knows for sure. And yes, it would be silly to pretend. And allowing the demise of a binary 0,1 mentality is simple if one understood how thoughts are produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Anders: The problem is that there is worry about not > being worried. What if the angst and worry is needed? > I cannot pretend not to be worried. Well, perhaps I > could, but that would be silly, wouldn't it? > > al. > > Lewis: Perhaps it is needed. Only the worrier knows > for sure. And yes, it would be silly to pretend. And > allowing the demise of a binary 0,1 mentality is > simple if one understood how thoughts are produced. > > I don't follow what you mean by binary mentality. Do you mean the human mind's tendency to see things as binary opposites? al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess > <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Anders: The problem is that there is worry about > not > > being worried. What if the angst and worry is > needed? > > I cannot pretend not to be worried. Well, perhaps > I > > could, but that would be silly, wouldn't it? > > > > al. > > > > Lewis: Perhaps it is needed. Only the worrier > knows > > for sure. And yes, it would be silly to pretend. > And > > allowing the demise of a binary 0,1 mentality is > > simple if one understood how thoughts are > produced. > > > > > > I don't follow what you mean by binary mentality. Do > you mean the > human mind's tendency to see things as binary > opposites? > > al. Lewis: Yes. The tendency to turn the coin over and over and over again without ceasing. It is this, no, on the other side it is that, but again it is this if it is turned over, no it is this, well it depends, since if it is turned over, see, it is that, but if if it is turned over like this, it is this...If one knew how thoughts were produced, this would be apparent and how the operation is maintained as levels of analysis change while still using the same binary operation. So it seems if it is not happening but it always is. 0,1, 0,1. It does not matter what the topic is. Can you not see the binary set up we are in Anders? It is in the very nature of thought production and language expression. Lewis Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 --- Pedsie2 wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/6/05 9:22:37 AM, > lbb10 writes: > > > > As Toombaru says, " Mountains are > > slowing moving dirt. " > > > > P: Coming to the the rescue of Toomb's best > poetic sentence ever! " Mountains are slow moving > waves > of dirt. " We got to accurately save that one for > posterity. > We don't want that one to be adulterated like this > one from > J. C. " Piss on the poor because they shall inherit > the dirt. " Well, > if powerful Christians forgot the letter of that > saying, at least, they > have > been following its spirit all along. Lewis: Good looking out Pete. My bad. It was flowing out and didn't check the original. Memory is still partially intact though. Those words is da bomb. Hey Toom! Give more of that kind stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess > > <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Anders: The problem is that there is worry about > > not > > > being worried. What if the angst and worry is > > needed? > > > I cannot pretend not to be worried. Well, perhaps > > I > > > could, but that would be silly, wouldn't it? > > > > > > al. > > > > > > Lewis: Perhaps it is needed. Only the worrier > > knows > > > for sure. And yes, it would be silly to pretend. > > And > > > allowing the demise of a binary 0,1 mentality is > > > simple if one understood how thoughts are > > produced. > > > > > > > > > > I don't follow what you mean by binary mentality. Do > > you mean the > > human mind's tendency to see things as binary > > opposites? > > > > al. > > Lewis: Yes. The tendency to turn the coin over and > over and over again without ceasing. It is this, no, > on the other side it is that, but again it is this if > it is turned over, no it is this, well it depends, > since if it is turned over, see, it is that, but if if > it is turned over like this, it is this...If one knew > how thoughts were produced, this would be apparent and > how the operation is maintained as levels of analysis > change while still using the same binary operation. So > it seems if it is not happening but it always is. 0,1, > 0,1. It does not matter what the topic is. Can you not > see the binary set up we are in Anders? It is in the > very nature of thought production and language > expression. > > Lewis > > Thoughts are binary in that they are about something which is defined by being everything other that that something is not. Maybe one can train oneself to use fuzzy thoughts, or rather, to try to blur one's own thoughts as they happen, to mix them up beyond recognition. That would be an interesting (new?) kind of meditation. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: > > > > > > I don't follow what you mean by binary > mentality. Do > > > you mean the > > > human mind's tendency to see things as binary > > > opposites? > > > > > > al. > > > > Lewis: Yes. The tendency to turn the coin over and > > over and over again without ceasing. It is this, > no, > > on the other side it is that, but again it is this > if > > it is turned over, no it is this, well it depends, > > since if it is turned over, see, it is that, but > if if > > it is turned over like this, it is this...If one > knew > > how thoughts were produced, this would be apparent > and > > how the operation is maintained as levels of > analysis > > change while still using the same binary > operation. So > > it seems if it is not happening but it always is. > 0,1, > > 0,1. It does not matter what the topic is. Can you > not > > see the binary set up we are in Anders? It is in > the > > very nature of thought production and language > > expression. > > > > Lewis > > > > > Anders: Thoughts are binary in that they are about something which is defined by being everything other that that something is not. Maybe one can train oneself to use fuzzy thoughts, or rather, to try to blur one's own thoughts as they happen, to mix them up beyond recognition. That would be an interesting (new?) kind of meditation. al. Lewis: It is possible to mangle thoughts by why do that? Perhaps, you can sell the " mangled thought meditation method " for fifty bucks a pop. " How to mangle your thoughts beyond recognition. Become a blithering idiot in seconds! It will sell, I tell, Anders,it wil sell...... Why train to make fuzzy or mixed up thoughts? They will simply be fuzzy, blurry, mixed up binary thoughts. And soon as you stop that game, the same process of production will continue. Thought production requires little effort. If one knows how it operates one can do something about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > --- Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 4/6/05 9:22:37 AM, > > lbb10@c... writes: > > > > > > > As Toombaru says, " Mountains are > > > slowing moving dirt. " > > > > > > > P: Coming to the the rescue of Toomb's best > > poetic sentence ever! " Mountains are slow moving > > waves > > of dirt. " > > Lewis: Those words is da bomb. Hey > Toom! Give more of that kind stuff. What? You missed: " Stupidity, is slowly moving waves of Intelligence. " At least that one moves the poetry out of your head brain, into your gut brain, where you live. But, credit where credit is due: Toom originally stimulated the neurons. Hear, Hear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Thoughts are binary in that they are about something which is defined > by being everything other that that something is not. Maybe one can > train oneself to use fuzzy thoughts, or rather, to try to blur one's > own thoughts as they happen, to mix them up beyond recognition. That > would be an interesting (new?) kind of meditation. > al. It's called THINKING, not the 'thinking' you ordinarily call thinking, which is mostly feelings masquerading as thinking (as in: " Listen up friends and neighbors, to what >>I<< feel about what >>I'm now saying<< (or, >>you just said<<)), and which almost ALWAYS has a personal aspect to it. Thinking, could be described as thinking about something without remembering (what memory tries to offer up about it), or conversely, remembering something without thinking (what you've already thought) about it. In that way it can float, without becoming instantly attached to other thoughts/ feelings/ images/ sensations that, in an automatic process of attraction/repulsion, continuously interfere with Thinking, and which ALWAYS has a non-personal aspect to it. It's like fuzzy thinking, as you suggested, in that you are holding more than TWO thoughts in your mind (prefereably THREE) simultaneously, without allowing them to instantly become merged in your consciousness as one - which is their innate tendency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't follow what you mean by binary > > mentality. Do > > > > you mean the > > > > human mind's tendency to see things as binary > > > > opposites? > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > Lewis: Yes. The tendency to turn the coin over and > > > over and over again without ceasing. It is this, > > no, > > > on the other side it is that, but again it is this > > if > > > it is turned over, no it is this, well it depends, > > > since if it is turned over, see, it is that, but > > if if > > > it is turned over like this, it is this...If one > > knew > > > how thoughts were produced, this would be apparent > > and > > > how the operation is maintained as levels of > > analysis > > > change while still using the same binary > > operation. So > > > it seems if it is not happening but it always is. > > 0,1, > > > 0,1. It does not matter what the topic is. Can you > > not > > > see the binary set up we are in Anders? It is in > > the > > > very nature of thought production and language > > > expression. > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > > > > Anders: Thoughts are binary in that they are about > something which is defined by being everything other > that that something is not. Maybe one can train > oneself to use fuzzy thoughts, or rather, to try to > blur one's own thoughts as they happen, to mix them up > beyond recognition. That would be an interesting > (new?) kind of meditation. > > al. > > Lewis: It is possible to mangle thoughts by why do > that? Perhaps, you can sell the " mangled thought > meditation method " for fifty bucks a pop. " How to > mangle your thoughts beyond recognition. Become a > blithering idiot in seconds! It will sell, I tell, > Anders,it wil sell...... LOL, it probably would. > > Why train to make fuzzy or mixed up thoughts? They > will simply be fuzzy, blurry, mixed up binary > thoughts. And soon as you stop that game, the same > process of production will continue. Thought > production requires little effort. If one knows how it > operates one can do something about it. > > A thought appears as a simple object, but is in fact an extraordinary complexy yet cohesive entity. To define a thought about a car for example, we could define a car as car, but that would be a cyclic definition and would be cheating. Only by pointing out _all_ phenomena that the car is _not_ can the car be truly defined. Such definitons happens automatically in the brain, and so we can be fooled to believe that the definition is an easy task, when in fact it is an almost impossible task. How the brain/mind does this is an extraordinary mystery. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , " fmraerdy " <mybox234@b...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Thoughts are binary in that they are about something which is > defined > > by being everything other that that something is not. Maybe one can > > train oneself to use fuzzy thoughts, or rather, to try to blur one's > > own thoughts as they happen, to mix them up beyond recognition. That > > would be an interesting (new?) kind of meditation. > > al. > > It's called THINKING, not the 'thinking' you ordinarily call > thinking, which is mostly feelings masquerading as thinking (as in: > " Listen up friends and neighbors, to what >>I<< feel about what >>I'm > now saying<< (or, >>you just said<<)), and which almost ALWAYS has a > personal aspect to it. > > Thinking, could be described as thinking about something without > remembering (what memory tries to offer up about it), or conversely, > remembering something without thinking (what you've already thought) > about it. In that way it can float, without becoming instantly > attached to other thoughts/ feelings/ images/ sensations that, in an > automatic process of attraction/repulsion, continuously interfere > with Thinking, and which ALWAYS has a non-personal aspect to it. > > It's like fuzzy thinking, as you suggested, in that you are holding > more than TWO thoughts in your mind (prefereably THREE) > simultaneously, without allowing them to instantly become merged in > your consciousness as one - which is their innate tendency. That was perhaps an even more interesting kind of meditation. To hold more that two thoughts in the mind at the same time! This I must try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " fmraerdy " <mybox234@b...> wrote: > > > > It's like fuzzy thinking, as you suggested, in that you are holding > > more than TWO thoughts in your mind (prefereably THREE) > > simultaneously, without allowing them to instantly become merged in > > your consciousness as one - which is their innate tendency. > > That was perhaps an even more interesting kind of meditation. To hold > more that two thoughts in the mind at the same time! This I must try. All this talk, talk, talk about what's going on, should - in right order - lead you to the realization that the thoughts are just happening to you, that you are not willing them into existence, NOR can you predict accurately what you will say next, unless you've been >>setup<< to predict it - as you just were - whereupon you can say, in that instance only, to some small degree, that you can. But usually - read: all the time - you can not predict what you will say next. As such, you are quite asleep, that is, your consciousness is asleep to what is happening therein - the thoughts are occurring, but there is no one home to witness them. That is what awakening is about, also enlightenment, also liberation, also whatever-you-call-it. In each instant, being conscious of what thoughts are flowing through you, can only be achieved, by certain extraordinary efforts, and when those efforts are not being made by you, you instantly fall back asleep. Endlessing talking/ " thinking " about ideas, is sleep cubed. Waking up, is controlling, intentionally, the thoughts flowing through you, and the effort is tantamount to holding multiple thoughts simultaneously at bay. The best thought to start the process is: " I am here now, I exist " and when you get better at it, it's just a realization that you exist where you are, like " coming to " . The second thought to hold at bay, is " keep watching " . Those two thoughts MUST be held in place above your own ordinary, dreaming consciousness, and when you inevitably drift off into oblivion (talking/ " thinking " about thoughts) - when you literally disappear, sometimes for hours, days, weeks - you must come always back to those two thoughts, held intentionally in your conscious awareness. Then, consciousness can study itself, in a way it can NEVER do so otherwise, not by discussing the ideas of others, or replying to email lists, or daydreaming you're actually awake all the time, which are most definitely NOT. Practice can not be avoided, or dismissed as useless, or regarded as pointless. That is why most (ok, MOST!!) people on these " enlightenment " lists are still sound asleep, and don't know it. As such, what they are talking about, is just talk for the sake of talking, and worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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