New form of desire - passion - fear - desire - peace?

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " sam_t_7 " <sam_t_7>

wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> >

> > al:> I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are

too

> > much

> > > occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present

moment.

> > > Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by

an

> > influx

> > > of the uncertain.

> >

 

 

> > Sam: How can desires be dissolved into the present moment by an

> > influx of the uncertain? This is called " variable response

ratio "

> > and it's what addicts people to such things as gambling,

spiritual

> > seeking, etc. The fascination with the influx of the uncertain,

as

> > you call it, fuels the addiction to the variable response

> > possiblities and rarely has the effect you long for of

dissolving

> > the uncertain. Gamblers also don't realize that the house

always

> > wins. This is the no-brainer that this kind of addiction

propells

> > either in one form or another - your form is no different.

>

 

 

> al:The uncertain can only exist along with fear and desire. When

those

> two driving forces, fear and desire, are merged into one feeling

which

> we can call passion and which looks into the present moment rather

> than into the future, then addiction cannot possible survive.

> Addiction has to do with a future created by discontent in the

present

> moment. The influx of the uncertain in this respect means the

> obliteration of the uncertain.

>

 

 

 

> > Al > The uncertain comes from the inability of our

> > > desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is

old,

> > > static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always

> > comes as

> > > the now, and the now is not uncertain.

 

 

 

> > Sam: That's a cobweb of thought – designed to feed the

illusions?

> > It sounds like your trying to end the gambling addiction by

figuring

> > out what the cards are going to hold before you play, thereby

> > stopping the desire to play or to turn over another card?

>

 

 

> al: Gambling addiction comes from a need to try to control the

future.

> Passion, which is a direct seeing in the present moment, is not an

> attempt to control, but rather total control which is the same as

no

> control. Not no control as in out of control, but no control in the

> sense of being more aware of the present moment than of the

future. A

> gambler is stuck to a future and the attempt to control and guide

> that future.

>

 

 

> > Al > Fear points to the now, and

> > > desires point to the future.

> >

 

 

> > Sam: there is no now *and* future. There is only now. The

> > struggling is based on fear. Period. Fear of the future and of

the

> > now brings the myriad of cobweb thoughts and ideas you are

proposing

> > here. All the other ideas of passion etc, is only " your "

> > ideas. Is your need to analyze the future and emotions a

wild

> > chase to avoid the present moment and continue to feed this

> > chase?

>

>

 

al: Perhaps. But I am trying to understand why I am so

preoccupied with

> the future. We are slaves to the future even though, as you say,

> there is only now.

> > >

 

 

> > Al > When fear and desire are fused into one

> > > feeling they become passion which is desire instantly

fulfilled in

> > the

> > > present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be

> > > uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be

> > certain.

> > > Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into

the

> > now.

> > > Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a

direction

> > > into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be

> > > preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by

the

> > > future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a

guide, but

> > > don't let the future use you.

> > >

> > > al.

 

 

 

sam: passion for what? passion for peace? Passion to escape

fear? Passion to escape this moment and what it is offering *you*?

My Brother-in-law is an addicted gambler, which is why I'm familiar

with gambling. Never was there a more passionate man on earth.

When you function in the present moment there is peace and a flow

which I cannot describe in words. Then you will *know* what

happens to your passion emotions. Until then it is all a mish mash

of words.

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " sam_t_7 " <sam_t_7> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " sam_t_7 " <sam_t_7>

> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> > >

> > > al:> I think desires give us a direction in life. But if we are

> too

> > > much

> > > > occupied with desires we are losing touch with the present

> moment.

> > > > Maybe desires should be dissolved into the present moment by

> an

> > > influx

> > > > of the uncertain.

> > >

>

>

> > > Sam: How can desires be dissolved into the present moment by an

> > > influx of the uncertain? This is called " variable response

> ratio "

> > > and it's what addicts people to such things as gambling,

> spiritual

> > > seeking, etc. The fascination with the influx of the uncertain,

> as

> > > you call it, fuels the addiction to the variable response

> > > possiblities and rarely has the effect you long for of

> dissolving

> > > the uncertain. Gamblers also don't realize that the house

> always

> > > wins. This is the no-brainer that this kind of addiction

> propells

> > > either in one form or another - your form is no different.

> >

>

>

> > al:The uncertain can only exist along with fear and desire. When

> those

> > two driving forces, fear and desire, are merged into one feeling

> which

> > we can call passion and which looks into the present moment rather

> > than into the future, then addiction cannot possible survive.

> > Addiction has to do with a future created by discontent in the

> present

> > moment. The influx of the uncertain in this respect means the

> > obliteration of the uncertain.

> >

>

>

>

> > > Al > The uncertain comes from the inability of our

> > > > desires to accurately predict the future. Every prediction is

> old,

> > > > static. The future itself is not uncertain. The future always

> > > comes as

> > > > the now, and the now is not uncertain.

>

>

>

> > > Sam: That's a cobweb of thought – designed to feed the

> illusions?

> > > It sounds like your trying to end the gambling addiction by

> figuring

> > > out what the cards are going to hold before you play, thereby

> > > stopping the desire to play or to turn over another card?

> >

>

>

> > al: Gambling addiction comes from a need to try to control the

> future.

> > Passion, which is a direct seeing in the present moment, is not an

> > attempt to control, but rather total control which is the same as

> no

> > control. Not no control as in out of control, but no control in the

> > sense of being more aware of the present moment than of the

> future. A

> > gambler is stuck to a future and the attempt to control and guide

> > that future.

> >

>

>

> > > Al > Fear points to the now, and

> > > > desires point to the future.

> > >

>

>

> > > Sam: there is no now *and* future. There is only now. The

> > > struggling is based on fear. Period. Fear of the future and of

> the

> > > now brings the myriad of cobweb thoughts and ideas you are

> proposing

> > > here. All the other ideas of passion etc, is only " your "

> > > ideas. Is your need to analyze the future and emotions a

> wild

> > > chase to avoid the present moment and continue to feed this

> > > chase?

> >

> >

>

> al: Perhaps. But I am trying to understand why I am so

> preoccupied with

> > the future. We are slaves to the future even though, as you say,

> > there is only now.

> > > >

>

>

> > > Al > When fear and desire are fused into one

> > > > feeling they become passion which is desire instantly

> fulfilled in

> > > the

> > > > present moment. When we act out of desires we will always be

> > > > uncertain, but when we act out of passion we will always be

> > > certain.

> > > > Desires are looking into the future, while passion looks into

> the

> > > now.

> > > > Even when we act out of passion, desires can be used as a

> direction

> > > > into the future, but then we need not _dwell_ in the future, be

> > > > preoccupied with the future, obsessed by the future, possed by

> the

> > > > future, being a slave to the future. Use the future as a

> guide, but

> > > > don't let the future use you.

> > > >

> > > > al.

>

>

>

> sam: passion for what? passion for peace? Passion to escape

> fear? Passion to escape this moment and what it is offering *you*?

> My Brother-in-law is an addicted gambler, which is why I'm familiar

> with gambling. Never was there a more passionate man on earth.

> When you function in the present moment there is peace and a flow

> which I cannot describe in words. Then you will *know* what

> happens to your passion emotions. Until then it is all a mish mash

> of words.

 

Desire is always for something. Desire is objectification,

entification. Desire focus on a particular thing and excludes the

rest. Passion is neither focus nor non-focus. Passion acts in the

moment, responds to the moment. Desire is always escape from fear. In

passion fear and desire have become one. Thus passion cannot escape

fear, because passion has eaten up all fear. Passion cannot escape the

present moment for it is the present moment. Being passionate for some

result (which always implies a future) is not true passion.

 

This is just a theory about passion. I am trying to find some ideas

about how fear can be transformed. But I do take this theory serious

enough to see if it actually can bring about some change in me.

 

al.