Guest guest Posted April 12, 2005 Report Share Posted April 12, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " sam_t_7 " <sam_t_7> wrote: > > >sam: Remove love and hate and there is No Thing -- empty. Then > >evolves a little bit of wonder and throw emotions into the mix and > >one experiences that wonder as love, pounding like a drum. As all > >duals have a duel/opposite so love has hate. When one can see the > >hate as even love then it all becomes love and folds back into > >wonder, which folds back into empty No Thing. > stefan > Hi Sam. Thanks for your explanation. It is good to hear someone share > his stories... openly... simple... as you do. You are right, love is > an emotion. That's why I have added the blonde lady to the mix (in > another posting). I wanted to put love down from the throne of an > ideal theoretical concept. In reality, everybody knows love. There is > no need to define it. Even the smallest child already knows love. Love > is live, overcoming separateness. Sam: thanks for your words. Just to clear something up, I'm a woman. Sam is short for Samantha. Up front and to the point – no beating around the bush as they say- is the communication I prefer as well. I don't have the interest in mincing words. sam> >This dual planet makes it very difficult to remain in the *flow > >state* (for lack of better words) or *you* would disappear -- there > >would be No Thing to flow *with*. > stef> And, if you disappear... what then? Do you mean that in this case you > cannot enjoy the " flow state " ? But is not the flow-state anyway > happening without you? When you were in the flow-state... where were > you then? Have you been there? Or maybe... was there only the > flow-state and then you remembered the " you " and... sam: My experience has been that there is much of nothing, then a wonder-sense which I call a flow state (for lack of better words) I'm acutely aware of a pulling nature which pulls and brings about this sensation of a separateness. Now I know these words will open up a barrage of misunderstandings in anyone reading, and I'm not good with words. I believe this is why Nis and others like Milarepa, etc. back off from humanity - it pulls. What would happen if I give into the pulling? The dual nature sets in as is what is happening with humanity to a large degree. Yes it's all one and it's never really separated at all although beyond this I really can't find words. I toy with the idea of backing away from the dual-ish nature more (my overloaded environment) and not engaging with it much becuz of this pulling which I have no interest in being pulled into becuz I know what happens - the old saying – been there done that applies here. What would happen if I disappeared? What then? I wouldn't any longer have this body in this particular way/form and the nature of what I'm about here would not be represented in the same way. It's not that I can't enjoy the flow state in this body/dualistic-esque environment, it just means that the pull is there for me and it's a much different angle. (I can't describe it) It's all flow state for sure, [illusion for sure, dualistic imagings for sure] > > >sam : A little dual is necessary here or anywhere in the universe of > >dreamland for that matter. It so happens that this blue planet > >straddles more into the hate zone than the love zone duality. > >It becomes too easy to move predominantly into the dual aspect of > >hate rather than love. I can't stay in a non-dual flow stage for > >very long or *I*, body and all will quickly disappear. >Stef: Do they need the " I " to function, is that your belief? Are you sure? > Sam: My experience is that `i' needs the `i' state/body in order to materialize. That involves the sense of duality as we define it and imagine/believe it. Otherwise the body wouldn't exist/function in this way becuz of it's natural illusory state. The point is not the illusory state but is rather more about what i'm " about " in this body. Sure it's all a dream yet we're all participating in it irregardless of that. Am I sure? Ha! <snort, chuckle> as sure as I can be in this moment. <chuckle> Since that's always changing who knows. :> > Sam To stay in the dual state and straddle between hate and love is a > >very difficult thing for people. > >stefan: Why is it difficult. Is it not happening by itself without anything > that needs to be done... sam: sure it's all happening by itself without anything that needs to be done. The dualish state is also happening with a great deal of effort. It takes less effort to settle in what we are by nature - non-dual, yet in case you haven't noticed looking outside your window it is a world that is in a dual perception. The `One' state is happening without anything that needs to be done, yet the dual state needs " doing " in order to perceive itself as separate. This is where the opposites come in to help that happen. Living in the world and being pulled by a very high maintenance marital partner shows me that this " pulling " and allowance of that brings my `experience " /life as i know it into the dual perception. Sure it's one and non-dual and if you can manage to stay in that while working in a highly dual environment then you are a great guru. Balsekar couldn't. osho couldn't. yogananda was swayed, Sai Baba – well, god only knows what he's up to. Nis, Ramana Maharshi and many others simply refused to interact in the dual world/people to a large degree and hardly engaged with them in words. This is why removing me from the intense duality types and environment around me is something I'm pondering on right now. Now, if I was a musician, playing by night and lying on a beach by day maybe I wouldn't have to be in the dualistic environment to the extent I am presently in. Sounds like you have simplified your life to what you love. I have a man who talks, talks, talks and loves money, materialism, better cars, shopping and demands a high amount of attention, in other words, very high maintenance. It may be fun to listen to Al on this board but I live with an Al-like person and it is pulling. I sympathize with Lahiri Mahasay when he rose his voice to his wife who was incessantly going on about money. My husband wanted more money and through meditation I discovered how to obtain a very nice house, which we live in for free. That was o.k. for a few years but then it was no good; I needed to do more. I didn't want to enter the work force becuz it isn't for me, as I said, it pulls at me. So, I went back to work. Then I went into the woods and set about arranging how to make money without being in the work force. So, I went to the bank and it had only $100.00 left in it. I withdrew it and there was still a $100.00 bank balance left. It kept on with this. I told my husband who was ecstatically elated and that was o.k. for awhile but then he became discontent again. And for those of you who have never had any experience with creating (as I've read your essays) I guess you won't understand how the above story could be true. I look only in my late 20's as I do a certain `thing' that keeps the body at that age and that is still not happy for my husband. Other men say I'm very hot and he is sometimes happy with me and more often looking for something better. He is a very nice and kind person so you see the pull is not for me. So now I'm arranging to leave. I thought I could remain uninfluenced by it but it doesn't work that way for me. I have no interest in marriage or this kind of dualistic relationship " love " at all. I'm just venting and rambling now about the things that cause this pull for me. > sam> >Hence, the wars, the head bashing and sadness. > stefan> It is all happening on its own accord. And if you forever struggle > straddling... what will it change? Sam: Yes, it's all happening on it's own accord. And it is happening by the accord of those who are playing at the dream. A dream within a dream within a dream. But if the readers haven't acknowledge creating anything in the dream time [not withstanding the illusory nature of the `thing'] then they will never know by what accord *It* is. At times I find myself pulled out of that one state, which is an all encompassing state. I'm not talking about being angry or love here in this case. I'm talking about the flow that encompasses it all. That's when it is neither one nor the other but it just is, whatever is being expressed by this moment. When i engage in a place of either anger or love i have moved out of that flow state/all encompassing and into a dual/separated sense and I'm more than aware of what that is like. Being in the one or the other is the struggle. Being in the All, in a body, and staying in the moment can be quite a challenge when one is being pulled. I can't do it without pulling back. Does it matter? Not really, although I have no interest in the dualist-ish style dream time environment that is prevalent around me in the same way others are. We are All without struggle. That's when we know that is what we are and the dualistic stuff drops, again, if you can function in that without being affected by the environmental pull then, more power to ya. Are you never aware of functioning in the dual state? Or are you our transcended master who is no longer affected or swayed/influenced by the dual sense attributed to humans? If it is for you then maybe we should change the forums name to Stefan rather than Nisargadatta becuz it may be more productive to interact with a live Grecian than a dead Indian <wink,smile> Sincerely, if you are what you elude to then I am grateful to interact with you. If you aren't then I am equally grateful to interact with you as with all on this forum. Yes love is all and encompasses all and in the dual-esque nature of humanity I have no interest in operating so dualistically. As your fellow country man, Yani, sings: Love is All. (from the Tribute c.d.) When i engage in this dual/duel-esque way it isn't for me. It is what I am and yet not. When I am operating (poor choice of wording but I can't think of another one) in the non-dual-esque state anger or love isn't an issue. Weather I use anger during the day, or what others may perceive to be anger, is irrelevant. When I operate in dual I know the difference. That is what I meant by falling off the horse, so to speak. Where can I fall? It's all me ! Sure it is. It's a look at It All from a different angle. I have a preference (so sue me) I prefer to look from the All angle and embrace it all. If I get pulled into a dualistic view the **easiest* way for me to get back on the horse/ the angle which I prefer, is to get up on the stirrup of acknowledging all through love. Then there is no struggle at all. I've tried acknowledging `All' through hate and, well, if the world enjoys the view of violence, well, that's where that was/is heading-right into hate. Like I say, functioning in that space is dualistic for me and I've done that. The All swallows up the hate/love/dual and yet when I'm pulled out off the horse/one/flow (again, if anyone wants to elaborate on the aspect of states don't bother – I already said I can't describe how it would best be said becuz it really can't be said.) I have not had an easy time jumping up on the horse without a stirrup. My preferred stirrup is love, and then the all/flow swallows it all up so it is irrelevant about either the love or the hate thing. > sam: > >Thanks Stefan for the good reminder to **me** to alert to > >straddle the love dual rather than the hate dual. > stefan> As long as I preferred love from hate I found myself entangled in > senseless struggles. Sam: you do prefer love from hate. I read it loud and clear in your words. Are you trying to convince me that you don't? Are you trying to pull one over on me like Pete by saying he doesn't experience the feeling of irritation? You, my dear friend Stefan, are still entangled in senseless struggles, as are we all here. Disclosing the " sense " in the senselessness is a sense of accepting. Once we accept we realize that there is nothing to accept at all. Then your left with examining your human role (if any) otherwise you really wouldn't be occupying a physical body. The senseless struggle ends. [but does the dualistic pull end? I don't know – not for me yet.] Are you saying you never fall off of that grand horse your riding and get pulled somewhat into the dualistic nature? > sam> >It's more productive for *me* than the other options. Love absorbs > hate and it disappears into that state of wonder which is begotten > from the Emptiness. > > >It's easier for *me* to stay in non-dual (I use the > >word easy very loosely becuze there is a continuous pulling from all > >sides and shift to non-dual is frequent) when the focus is on the > >love duality - points closer back to the core/source in a way that > >has less hate/anger stuff that acts as a quicksand. In other > >words, love is a better tool than hate. Then it's all love eh? > stefan: > But maybe... if you go totally into hate, without holding back... you > will end up with the same result? How do you know? The crux is the > chosing not the chosen. It is the attitude that you prefer one from > the other that makes you a slave of duality. Letting everything be > what it is... love be love, hate be hate... this gave me freedom. Sam: see above explanation. Hate is just a dualistic state which I've been there. One/flow swallows it up – is it – from a different angle – which is what I term as – a twist. > sam: > >I needed this reminder. I must go and return some product to a > >sales woman who is like a she-wolf from hades. Fear of future was > >cropping up and with it was confrontation in roots of hatred. It > >quickly was pulling at -me- and composure was being lost at the > >prospect of the confrontation, finding my straddle off into the > >anger/hatin'/resentment emotions. > stefan> It is understandable, you are afraid of losing composure. You have > chosen your ideal state to be composure and lovingness. But on the > other hand: as long as you are desiring those states you are entangled > in the struggle. The real problem, that which causes the suffering, is > the struggling itself. All those emotional states are naturally > flowing, they come... so they will go. > Sam: I don't " choose " my ideal state as love or composure. There is really no ideal, obviously there are many people who also don't " choose " it. There are also obviously many people that do, and who project their ideal onto us by saying that we should act one way over another. I grew up influenced by the latter to a high degree. My dead mother would be outraged if she were here becuz I'm talking in a way that she would say isn't becoming of a woman. Oh yes, I've been influenced by the fear to perform a certain way and with that came fear of losing composure. My mother is always watching me in the rear view mirror anyways so I turn a deaf ear and let her have her own crap. I'm not desiring those states. After years of silence and meditation thoughts have no place in me unless they point the way as a transmitter. Then comes the pull and that's why I'm here on this forum. That's what I meant by falling off the horse/one flow – being pulled out of (the state which has no ideal) and *All* swallowing it up (both the ideal and non-ideal – love/hate). Then there is the struggle. When I am " " functioning " " from All state (Ha! sounds like an american life insurance company, for those of you who don't know there is an insurance company called All State.) and yes we can function from a state other than All, which is the dualistic state, which sure, really isn't dual at all but an illusion of being dual, but it doesn't stop the person from having their dualistic angle of life – sorting shadows as Toombaru would call it. Therefore, if I'm being pulled back into a sense of dualism (which is a welcome to the Grand Illusion – as the old 70's rock band Styx would call it) then I do recognize the sensation of operating in a hate or a love. Nisargadatta described his situation very well when he said that it is between these 2 places that he walks with some difficulty. I can't find the exact phrase right now but I totally understand where he was coming from when he said it. Sam:> >Your reminder is to counter by straddling the love dual side, which > is quickly putting it all back into the flow state. > stefan: > Are you sure it works that way? My own reminder is: acceptance. One > day I started to accept and accept and accept... and everything became > vaster and vaster... and easier and easier... sam: sure, as I said above, accept and accept until there is no thing left to accept and you don't need to accept anymore. If you ever fall off your horse that is always a good place to start to get back up on the stirrup again. You don't ever fall off that mighty trojan horse? <wink> And what are you accepting? Hate. You accept, accept and accept which is no other thing than --- guess what--- love. So, when your climbing up on your horse through acceptance you are still only climbing up by way of love. That's just one of the many definitions of the word love. The difference between you and me is that I know that's what I'm doing whereas you use a word acceptance without knowing what it's doing. Does it matter? Who really cares if it reminds you of *All.* Unless you don't want that. Then that's o.k. too. > sam: > >This blue planet is quite the dual/duel and > >being 'in source' removes the straddling to a dull roar yet when I > >fell off the horse it's good to be reminded which side to get back > >up on again. > stefan: > Why bother from which side? Once you sit on the top again / or in > source... it does not matter how you got there. Love takes care of > itself. > sam: why bother from which side? I've walked the side of hate, as I said in my above diatribe. Been there done that. No thanks. I will share something with you. Hate/dark illusion has a very low ceiling. Love has a higher ceiling. Again, All embraces it both and can fold it all back into no thing. If you can jump right into the All without a boost up then more power to you. I sometimes can but not always. As one dead Indian said, Keep it simple and do what you love, be where you love. I haven't kept my life simple and have not been where I loved which is why I'm pulled back into the dualish angle/perception/illusion. Which is also why I have had to be reminded through this forum. Stefan: > I thank you too, for your openness. I hope I did not shock you with my > objections... as I obviously have shocked others. I think it takes a > long time and effort and patience to come to a point where one can > really relate to the other, verbally, on such a list. If you don't > agree with what I have said, great... I don't expect that. Sam: I understand where your coming from. It doesn't matter to me if anyone agrees with me or not. I could care less. I don't have any expectations of you one way or the other. Thanks again for reminding me of a bit of nonsense that I needed to hear. Take care now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Hi Sam, puhh, you wrote a long posting :-) I will not comment it sentence by sentence... but... thanks for letting me know more about you. And good that you reminded me about the all embracing nature of love, you are right. I have to explain myself better... my experience was until now: when there was love and hate and I rejected hate - it entered with even more power from the back door. When this choosing faded I found that love was choosing me, so to say. I think I know what you mean with " pulling " . But imagine when there is no resistance against the pulling... what will happen. When I accept it, it comes and goes as a natural mechanism. It itself is seen as part of the flow. I also do not have an easy life (as you seem to guess :-))... and the last few years have been really difficult but those experiences were obviously necessary. The contentness I experience now seems to be completely independent from what is happening to me " outside " . It is hard to describe. I am unhappy when bad things happen, but the unhappiness is only on the periphery. It is perceived as something that comes and goes, like any emotion or like a flu. You are talking about duality and non-duality. I cannot really relate to that. It sounds like two different states, but you know yourself that this cannot be since non-duality by its very definition cannot be a state (opposed to another state). Here is just a stream of experiencing. Here are often hundreds of different states within one minute. Not to speak of days or weeks. This may sound weird, but I believe it is quite common and ordinary. Now tell me, why should someone make a " Stefan " - ? Nothing is special about what I say. I am not a teacher, not a guru, not a master. I have no recipy, my point of view could be again completely different tomorrow. I try to be authentic when someone asks me about " Stefan " on the " Nisargadatta " list. Thats all. And - as you probably have realized - I am an adolescent rebel enjoying Disneyland. BTW, I also could tell you some stories about " creating " . It all works. But in my life the rejected parts came back to me like furies, years later. This slowly, slowly made me humble towards fate. Ok, enough for now Love Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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