Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that it is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. And desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. Can you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind guided by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between people. And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and personal knowledge people are equipped with. Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and the world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide a person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't know how to upgrade your desires. The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, we want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this is so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not needed, and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the world is ever new. When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other people? Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. But is that human? al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) Without thinking, feeling, seeing, hearing, remembering... do you exist? ... or not exist? There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a separate self - there isn't one. Look deeply. You will soon see that all there is, IS ... an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. That, you are. Welcome. Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a single strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking about its 'future' when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will happen to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a threat to it's integrity. a story ... There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the mountains. He was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking a wild animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly Enlightened, jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of course, to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, while he was unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese character for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When the sage returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I see, " said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " Love, charlie www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Nisargadatta [Nisargadatta ]On Behalf Of anders_lindman Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM Nisargadatta What is fear? Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that it is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. And desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. Can you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind guided by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between people. And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and personal knowledge people are equipped with. Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and the world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide a person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't know how to upgrade your desires. The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, we want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this is so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not needed, and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the world is ever new. When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other people? Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. But is that human? al. ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > hearing, remembering... > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a separate self - > there isn't one. > > > > Look deeply. > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > That, you are. > > > > Welcome. > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a single > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking about its > 'future' > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will happen > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a threat to > it's integrity. > > a story ... > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the mountains. He > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking a wild > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly Enlightened, > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of course, > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, while he was > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese character > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When the sage > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I see, " > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Hi charlie, Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? al. > > > > Nisargadatta [Nisargadatta ]On > Behalf Of anders_lindman > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > Nisargadatta > What is fear? > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that it > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. And > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. Can > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind guided > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between people. > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and personal > knowledge people are equipped with. > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and the > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide a > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > know how to upgrade your desires. > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, we > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this is > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not needed, > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the world > is ever new. > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other people? > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. > But is that human? > > al. > > > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 hello Anders sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing with NO experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to appear. As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " however, what the bleep do *i* know!? Love, charlie www.awakeningtotheeternal.net anders_lindman [anders_lindman] Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM Nisargadatta Re: What is fear? Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > hearing, remembering... > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a separate self - > there isn't one. > > > > Look deeply. > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > That, you are. > > > > Welcome. > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a single > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking about its > 'future' > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will happen > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a threat to > it's integrity. > > a story ... > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the mountains. He > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking a wild > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly Enlightened, > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of course, > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, while he was > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese character > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When the sage > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I see, " > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Hi charlie, Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? al. > > > > Nisargadatta [Nisargadatta ]On > Behalf Of anders_lindman > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > Nisargadatta > What is fear? > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that it > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. And > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. Can > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind guided > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between people. > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and personal > knowledge people are equipped with. > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and the > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide a > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > know how to upgrade your desires. > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, we > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this is > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not needed, > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the world > is ever new. > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other people? > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. > But is that human? > > al. > > > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > hello Anders > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing with NO > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to appear. > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net I believe that there will always be an experiencer. In fact, I don't think there can be a world without a conscious experiencer. That experiencer is the " I am " , the " I am that which knows that I am " . But what about dreamless sleep? Surely there is a world there even when I am in deep sleep. Not necessarily. Pardon me for nagging about this issue: but we do not know if we ever have been in dreamless sleep. A memory of having been asleep is not automatically the same thing as real sleep. Maybe there is no such thing as sleep. Maybe awareness is always aware and without awareness there is no world. al. > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: What is fear? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a separate self - > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a > single > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > about its > > 'future' > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will > happen > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a > threat to > > it's integrity. > > > > a story ... > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > mountains. He > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking a wild > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly Enlightened, > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of > course, > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, while he was > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > character > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When the sage > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I > see, " > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > Love, > > charlie > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > Hi charlie, > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > al. > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > [Nisargadatta ]On > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > Nisargadatta > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that it > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. And > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. Can > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind guided > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between people. > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and personal > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and the > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide a > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, we > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this is > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not needed, > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the world > > is ever new. > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other people? > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. > > But is that human? > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > Nisargadatta > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Anders, PS: I am NOT a " Non-Duality Teacher. " I am a Cadillac salesman in Southern California! Yes, I have a website and sell a book but these are entertainment for those like me who love this crap! There is a very revealing text at http://www.inner-quest.org/Real_Advaita.htm Highly recommended, as I too spent time and a LOT of money with one of the 'advaita-gurus' that are the subject of the text. Real lovers of Nisargadatta will be amused and bemused by the carryings-on. Love, charlie www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Charlie Hayes [awakenow] Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:57 AM Nisargadatta RE: Re: What is fear? hello Anders sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing with NO experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to appear. As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " however, what the bleep do *i* know!? Love, charlie www.awakeningtotheeternal.net anders_lindman [anders_lindman] Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM Nisargadatta Re: What is fear? Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > hearing, remembering... > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a separate self - > there isn't one. > > > > Look deeply. > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > That, you are. > > > > Welcome. > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a single > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking about its > 'future' > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will happen > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a threat to > it's integrity. > > a story ... > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the mountains. He > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking a wild > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly Enlightened, > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of course, > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, while he was > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese character > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When the sage > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I see, " > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Hi charlie, Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? al. > > > > Nisargadatta [Nisargadatta ]On > Behalf Of anders_lindman > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > Nisargadatta > What is fear? > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that it > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. And > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. Can > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind guided > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between people. > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and personal > knowledge people are equipped with. > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and the > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide a > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > know how to upgrade your desires. > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, we > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this is > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not needed, > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the world > is ever new. > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other people? > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. > But is that human? > > al. > > > > > > ** > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > Anders, > > PS: > > I am NOT a " Non-Duality Teacher. " I am a Cadillac salesman in Southern > California! Yes, I have a website and sell a book but these are > entertainment for those like me who love this crap! > > There is a very revealing text at > http://www.inner-quest.org/Real_Advaita.htm > > Highly recommended, as I too spent time and a LOT of money with one of the > 'advaita-gurus' that are the subject of the text. Real lovers of > Nisargadatta will be amused and bemused by the carryings-on. > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Cadillacs! Is that car company still running? Just kidding. In fact, I would love to have a Cadillac myself. al. > > > > Charlie Hayes [awakenow@e...] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:57 AM > Nisargadatta > RE: Re: What is fear? > > > hello Anders > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing with NO > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to appear. > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: What is fear? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a separate > self - > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a > single > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > about its > > 'future' > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will > happen > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a > threat to > > it's integrity. > > > > a story ... > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > mountains. He > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking a > wild > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly Enlightened, > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of > course, > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, while he > was > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > character > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When the > sage > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I > see, " > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > Love, > > charlie > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > Hi charlie, > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > al. > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > [Nisargadatta ]On > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > Nisargadatta > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that > it > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. > And > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. > Can > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind > guided > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between > people. > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and > personal > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and > the > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide > a > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, > we > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this > is > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not > needed, > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the > world > > is ever new. > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other > people? > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. > > But is that human? > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > Nisargadatta > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 who am i to argue <smiling inside> ? Your point about deep sleep is one i have been quite interested in and puzzled by. There was one time that I slept deeply and was snoring yet Awareness was aware and there was an unbounded I am ... all happening at once. Lasted a few minutes, never appeared since. It's all such fun to discuss though, on days I don't have to chop wood and carry water (aka sell cars.) anders_lindman [anders_lindman] Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:22 AM Nisargadatta Re: What is fear? Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > hello Anders > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing with NO > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to appear. > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net I believe that there will always be an experiencer. In fact, I don't think there can be a world without a conscious experiencer. That experiencer is the " I am " , the " I am that which knows that I am " . But what about dreamless sleep? Surely there is a world there even when I am in deep sleep. Not necessarily. Pardon me for nagging about this issue: but we do not know if we ever have been in dreamless sleep. A memory of having been asleep is not automatically the same thing as real sleep. Maybe there is no such thing as sleep. Maybe awareness is always aware and without awareness there is no world. al. > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: What is fear? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a separate self - > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a > single > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > about its > > 'future' > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will > happen > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a > threat to > > it's integrity. > > > > a story ... > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > mountains. He > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking a wild > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly Enlightened, > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of > course, > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, while he was > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > character > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When the sage > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I > see, " > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > Love, > > charlie > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > Hi charlie, > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > al. > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > [Nisargadatta ]On > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > Nisargadatta > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that it > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. And > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. Can > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind guided > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between people. > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and personal > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and the > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide a > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, we > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this is > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not needed, > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the world > > is ever new. > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other people? > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. > > But is that human? > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > Nisargadatta > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 - Charlie Hayes Nisargadatta Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:35 AM RE: Re: What is fear? who am i to argue <smiling inside> ? Your point about deep sleep is one i have been quite interested in and puzzled by. There was one time that I slept deeply and was snoring yet Awareness was aware and there was an unbounded I am ... all happening at once. Lasted a few minutes, never appeared since. It's all such fun to discuss though, on days I don't have to chop wood and carry water (aka sell cars.) anders_lindman [anders_lindman] Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:22 AM Nisargadatta Re: What is fear? Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > hello Anders > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing with NO > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to appear. > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net I believe that there will always be an experiencer. In fact, I don't think there can be a world without a conscious experiencer. That experiencer is the " I am " , the " I am that which knows that I am " . But what about dreamless sleep? Surely there is a world there even when I am in deep sleep. Not necessarily. Pardon me for nagging about this issue: but we do not know if we ever have been in dreamless sleep. A memory of having been asleep is not automatically the same thing as real sleep. Maybe there is no such thing as sleep. Maybe awareness is always aware and without awareness there is no world. al. Hi Charlie, Cadillac car salesmen, realtors who lease cadillacs, what the **** is the world coming to? Love, Anna p.s. Falling asleep, waking up, falling asleep while waking up, sleeping while awake, etc. happens, and here we are.....))) and the snoring......Now, that doesn't let any-one sleep:))) > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: What is fear? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a separate self - > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a > single > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > about its > > 'future' > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will > happen > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a > threat to > > it's integrity. > > > > a story ... > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > mountains. He > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking a wild > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly Enlightened, > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of > course, > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, while he was > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > character > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When the sage > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I > see, " > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > Love, > > charlie > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > Hi charlie, > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > al. > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > [Nisargadatta ]On > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > Nisargadatta > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that it > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. And > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. Can > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind guided > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between people. > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and personal > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and the > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide a > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, we > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this is > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not needed, > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the world > > is ever new. > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other people? > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. > > But is that human? > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > Nisargadatta > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > who am i to argue <smiling inside> ? Your point about deep sleep is one i > have been quite interested in and puzzled by. There was one time that I > slept deeply and was snoring yet Awareness was aware and there was an > unbounded I am ... all happening at once. Lasted a few minutes, never > appeared since. > > It's all such fun to discuss though, on days I don't have to chop wood and > carry water (aka sell cars.) I imagine selling cars brings you in contact with people having desires. They think: " I want that car but can I afford it, or should I buy a cheaper car, or maybe I should buy a Volvo? " ))) Then you tell the customer: " I can see that you are filled with doubt and uncertainty, but you didn't come here to make a choice, you have already made it " al. > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:22 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: What is fear? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > hello Anders > > > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing > with NO > > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to > appear. > > > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > > > Love, > > charlie > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > I believe that there will always be an experiencer. In fact, I don't > think there can be a world without a conscious experiencer. That > experiencer is the " I am " , the " I am that which knows that I am " . > > But what about dreamless sleep? Surely there is a world there even > when I am in deep sleep. Not necessarily. Pardon me for nagging about > this issue: but we do not know if we ever have been in dreamless > sleep. A memory of having been asleep is not automatically the same > thing as real sleep. Maybe there is no such thing as sleep. Maybe > awareness is always aware and without awareness there is no world. > > al. > > > > > > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > > Nisargadatta > > Re: What is fear? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > > wrote: > > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a > separate self - > > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a > > single > > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > > about its > > > 'future' > > > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will > > happen > > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a > > threat to > > > it's integrity. > > > > > > a story ... > > > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > > mountains. He > > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking > a wild > > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly > Enlightened, > > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of > > course, > > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, > while he was > > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > > character > > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When > the sage > > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I > > see, " > > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > > > Love, > > > charlie > > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > > > > Hi charlie, > > > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say > > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is > > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > [Nisargadatta ]On > > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > > Nisargadatta > > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense > fear is a > > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is > that it > > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking > mind. And > > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a > result of > > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full > force. Can > > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind > guided > > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between > people. > > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and > personal > > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad > because > > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are > always the > > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, > and the > > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires > guide a > > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want > change, we > > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But > this is > > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not > needed, > > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because > the world > > > is ever new. > > > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be > afraid > > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other > people? > > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in > fear. > > > But is that human? > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > > Nisargadatta > > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Anna Ruiz [nli10u] Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:38 AM Nisargadatta Re: Re: What is fear? - Charlie Hayes Nisargadatta Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:35 AM RE: Re: What is fear? who am i to argue <smiling inside> ? Your point about deep sleep is one i have been quite interested in and puzzled by. There was one time that I slept deeply and was snoring yet Awareness was aware and there was an unbounded I am ... all happening at once. Lasted a few minutes, never appeared since. It's all such fun to discuss though, on days I don't have to chop wood and carry water (aka sell cars.) anders_lindman [anders_lindman] Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:22 AM Nisargadatta Re: What is fear? Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > hello Anders > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing with NO > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to appear. > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net I believe that there will always be an experiencer. In fact, I don't think there can be a world without a conscious experiencer. That experiencer is the " I am " , the " I am that which knows that I am " . But what about dreamless sleep? Surely there is a world there even when I am in deep sleep. Not necessarily. Pardon me for nagging about this issue: but we do not know if we ever have been in dreamless sleep. A memory of having been asleep is not automatically the same thing as real sleep. Maybe there is no such thing as sleep. Maybe awareness is always aware and without awareness there is no world. al. Hi Charlie, Cadillac car salesmen, realtors who lease cadillacs, what the **** is the world coming to? Love, Anna p.s. Falling asleep, waking up, falling asleep while waking up, sleeping while awake, etc. happens, and here we are.....))) and the snoring......Now, that doesn't let any-one sleep:))) hooooo ya LOL Love, charlie www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: What is fear? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a separate self - > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a > single > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > about its > > 'future' > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will > happen > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a > threat to > > it's integrity. > > > > a story ... > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > mountains. He > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking a wild > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly Enlightened, > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of > course, > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, while he was > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > character > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When the sage > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I > see, " > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > Love, > > charlie > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > Hi charlie, > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > al. > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > [Nisargadatta ]On > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > Nisargadatta > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense fear is a > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is that it > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking mind. And > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a result of > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full force. Can > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind guided > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between people. > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and personal > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad because > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are always the > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, and the > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires guide a > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want change, we > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But this is > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not needed, > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because the world > > is ever new. > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be afraid > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other people? > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in fear. > > But is that human? > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > Nisargadatta > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Anders, selling cars is effortless when I remember to see the 'other' as my Self ... sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But after imbibing Sri Nisargadatta and sitting with a couple of real good Friends (like John Wheeler) I find that being with people is a great joy and there is a spaciousness I treasure. Not all customers are very nice ... some are so afraid (rightly so) to walk onto a car lot that they put up some big defenses in the form of offensive and rude behavior toward the sales person. Mind you, there are those who do not ... fortunately most of our Cadillac customers are very good people living there lives and enjoying their cars, as I do (I drive a CTS and I love the thing.) I tell people that having come out of retirement to sell Cadillacs is a product of the fact that I love people and I love cars. Most get it and we have a great time playing the game with integrity and love! Love, charlie www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > who am i to argue <smiling inside> ? Your point about deep sleep is one i > have been quite interested in and puzzled by. There was one time that I > slept deeply and was snoring yet Awareness was aware and there was an > unbounded I am ... all happening at once. Lasted a few minutes, never > appeared since. > > It's all such fun to discuss though, on days I don't have to chop wood and > carry water (aka sell cars.) I imagine selling cars brings you in contact with people having desires. They think: " I want that car but can I afford it, or should I buy a cheaper car, or maybe I should buy a Volvo? " ))) Then you tell the customer: " I can see that you are filled with doubt and uncertainty, but you didn't come here to make a choice, you have already made it " al. > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:22 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: What is fear? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > hello Anders > > > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing > with NO > > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to > appear. > > > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > > > Love, > > charlie > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > I believe that there will always be an experiencer. In fact, I don't > think there can be a world without a conscious experiencer. That > experiencer is the " I am " , the " I am that which knows that I am " . > > But what about dreamless sleep? Surely there is a world there even > when I am in deep sleep. Not necessarily. Pardon me for nagging about > this issue: but we do not know if we ever have been in dreamless > sleep. A memory of having been asleep is not automatically the same > thing as real sleep. Maybe there is no such thing as sleep. Maybe > awareness is always aware and without awareness there is no world. > > al. > > > > > > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > > Nisargadatta > > Re: What is fear? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > > wrote: > > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a > separate self - > > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a > > single > > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > > about its > > > 'future' > > > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will > > happen > > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a > > threat to > > > it's integrity. > > > > > > a story ... > > > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > > mountains. He > > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking > a wild > > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly > Enlightened, > > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of > > course, > > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, > while he was > > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > > character > > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When > the sage > > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I > > see, " > > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > > > Love, > > > charlie > > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > > > > Hi charlie, > > > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say > > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is > > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > [Nisargadatta ]On > > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > > Nisargadatta > > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense > fear is a > > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is > that it > > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking > mind. And > > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a > result of > > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full > force. Can > > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind > guided > > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between > people. > > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and > personal > > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad > because > > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are > always the > > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, > and the > > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires > guide a > > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want > change, we > > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But > this is > > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not > needed, > > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because > the world > > > is ever new. > > > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be > afraid > > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other > people? > > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in > fear. > > > But is that human? > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > > Nisargadatta > > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Siddharmeshwar Maharaj - Excerpts from Amrut Laya Detachment is absence of even a single desire. This leads to fearlessness. Otherwise, there is no freedom from fear for you. One should not depend on others, as in the case where one thinks : " If I do not get anything to eat I will die. " Desire for the bliss of Self, is desire for the bliss within. Anders, selling cars is effortless when I remember to see the 'other' as my Self .... sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But after imbibing Sri Nisargadatta and sitting with a couple of real good Friends (like John Wheeler) I find that being with people is a great joy and there is a spaciousness I treasure. Not all customers are very nice ... some are so afraid (rightly so) to walk onto a car lot that they put up some big defenses in the form of offensive and rude behavior toward the sales person. Mind you, there are those who do not ... fortunately most of our Cadillac customers are very good people living there lives and enjoying their cars, as I do (I drive a CTS and I love the thing.) I tell people that having come out of retirement to sell Cadillacs is a product of the fact that I love people and I love cars. Most get it and we have a great time playing the game with integrity and love! Love, charlie www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > who am i to argue <smiling inside> ? Your point about deep sleep is one i > have been quite interested in and puzzled by. There was one time that I > slept deeply and was snoring yet Awareness was aware and there was an > unbounded I am ... all happening at once. Lasted a few minutes, never > appeared since. > > It's all such fun to discuss though, on days I don't have to chop wood and > carry water (aka sell cars.) I imagine selling cars brings you in contact with people having desires. They think: " I want that car but can I afford it, or should I buy a cheaper car, or maybe I should buy a Volvo? " ))) Then you tell the customer: " I can see that you are filled with doubt and uncertainty, but you didn't come here to make a choice, you have already made it " al. > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:22 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: What is fear? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > hello Anders > > > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing > with NO > > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to > appear. > > > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > > > Love, > > charlie > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > I believe that there will always be an experiencer. In fact, I don't > think there can be a world without a conscious experiencer. That > experiencer is the " I am " , the " I am that which knows that I am " . > > But what about dreamless sleep? Surely there is a world there even > when I am in deep sleep. Not necessarily. Pardon me for nagging about > this issue: but we do not know if we ever have been in dreamless > sleep. A memory of having been asleep is not automatically the same > thing as real sleep. Maybe there is no such thing as sleep. Maybe > awareness is always aware and without awareness there is no world. > > al. > > > > > > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > > Nisargadatta > > Re: What is fear? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > > wrote: > > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a > separate self - > > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a > > single > > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > > about its > > > 'future' > > > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will > > happen > > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a > > threat to > > > it's integrity. > > > > > > a story ... > > > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > > mountains. He > > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking > a wild > > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly > Enlightened, > > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of > > course, > > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, > while he was > > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > > character > > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When > the sage > > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I > > see, " > > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > > > Love, > > > charlie > > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > > > > Hi charlie, > > > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say > > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is > > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > [Nisargadatta ]On > > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > > Nisargadatta > > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense > fear is a > > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is > that it > > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking > mind. And > > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a > result of > > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full > force. Can > > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind > guided > > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between > people. > > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and > personal > > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad > because > > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are > always the > > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, > and the > > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires > guide a > > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want > change, we > > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But > this is > > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not > needed, > > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because > the world > > > is ever new. > > > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be > afraid > > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other > people? > > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in > fear. > > > But is that human? > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > > Nisargadatta > > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > Anders, > > selling cars is effortless when I remember to see the 'other' as my Self ... > sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But after imbibing Sri Nisargadatta > and sitting with a couple of real good Friends (like John Wheeler) I find > that being with people is a great joy and there is a spaciousness I > treasure. Not all customers are very nice ... some are so afraid (rightly > so) to walk onto a car lot that they put up some big defenses in the form of > offensive and rude behavior toward the sales person. Mind you, there are > those who do not ... fortunately most of our Cadillac customers are very > good people living there lives and enjoying their cars, as I do (I drive a > CTS and I love the thing.) > > I tell people that having come out of retirement to sell Cadillacs is a > product of the fact that I love people and I love cars. Most get it and we > have a great time playing the game with integrity and love! > > Love, > charlie > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Yes, offensive and rude behaviour is based on fear in that person. That is my experience too. I can even recognize that behaviour in myself in certain situations. Often in the form of being shy, but that is more or less the same thing. Or pretending to be in a certain mood, when all the while I know deep inside that I am trying to put up some phony act. al. Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > who am i to argue <smiling inside> ? Your point about deep sleep is > one i > > have been quite interested in and puzzled by. There was one time that I > > slept deeply and was snoring yet Awareness was aware and there was an > > unbounded I am ... all happening at once. Lasted a few minutes, never > > appeared since. > > > > It's all such fun to discuss though, on days I don't have to chop > wood and > > carry water (aka sell cars.) > > > I imagine selling cars brings you in contact with people having > desires. They think: " I want that car but can I afford it, or should I > buy a cheaper car, or maybe I should buy a Volvo? " ))) Then you tell > the customer: " I can see that you are filled with doubt and > uncertainty, but you didn't come here to make a choice, you have > already made it " > > al. > > > > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:22 AM > > Nisargadatta > > Re: What is fear? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > > wrote: > > > hello Anders > > > > > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing > > with NO > > > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to > > appear. > > > > > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > > > > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > > > > > Love, > > > charlie > > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > > > > I believe that there will always be an experiencer. In fact, I don't > > think there can be a world without a conscious experiencer. That > > experiencer is the " I am " , the " I am that which knows that I am " . > > > > But what about dreamless sleep? Surely there is a world there even > > when I am in deep sleep. Not necessarily. Pardon me for nagging about > > this issue: but we do not know if we ever have been in dreamless > > sleep. A memory of having been asleep is not automatically the same > > thing as real sleep. Maybe there is no such thing as sleep. Maybe > > awareness is always aware and without awareness there is no world. > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > > > Nisargadatta > > > Re: What is fear? > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " > <awakenow@e...> > > > wrote: > > > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a > > separate self - > > > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering > ends in a > > > single > > > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > > > about its > > > > 'future' > > > > > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future > 'what will > > > happen > > > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response > to a > > > threat to > > > > it's integrity. > > > > > > > > a story ... > > > > > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > > > mountains. He > > > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking > > a wild > > > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly > > Enlightened, > > > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the > sage...referring, of > > > course, > > > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, > > while he was > > > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > > > character > > > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When > > the sage > > > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to > sit. " I > > > see, " > > > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > > > > > Love, > > > > charlie > > > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > > > > > > > Hi charlie, > > > > > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > > > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > > > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > > > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > > > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you > truly say > > > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that > there is > > > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > > [Nisargadatta ]On > > > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > > > Nisargadatta > > > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense > > fear is a > > > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is > > that it > > > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, > the more > > > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen > contraction in > > > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking > > mind. And > > > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a > > result of > > > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, > while at the > > > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full > > force. Can > > > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind > > guided > > > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between > > people. > > > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of > the world > > > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? > Because > > > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and > > personal > > > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad > > because > > > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are > > always the > > > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, > > and the > > > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires > > guide a > > > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You > cannot > > > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you > probably don't > > > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want > > change, we > > > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore > we look > > > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, > boredom, > > > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But > > this is > > > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. > If your > > > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not > > needed, > > > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because > > the world > > > > is ever new. > > > > > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be > > afraid > > > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other > > people? > > > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in > > fear. > > > > But is that human? > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change > your > > > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My > Groups: > > > > > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > > > Nisargadatta > > > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2005 Report Share Posted April 14, 2005 Anders, selling cars is effortless when I remember to see the 'other' as my Self .... sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But after imbibing Sri Nisargadatta and sitting with a couple of real good Friends (like John Wheeler) I find that being with people is a great joy and there is a spaciousness I treasure. Not all customers are very nice ... some are so afraid (rightly so) to walk onto a car lot that they put up some big defenses in the form of offensive and rude behavior toward the sales person. Mind you, there are those who do not ... fortunately most of our Cadillac customers are very good people living there lives and enjoying their cars, as I do (I drive a CTS and I love the thing.) I tell people that having come out of retirement to sell Cadillacs is a product of the fact that I love people and I love cars. Most get it and we have a great time playing the game with integrity and love! Love, charlie www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Its sort of like, i never sell a house to a who who doesn't want to buy....)) love, Anna Have a bountiful day, as if.... YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES Love, charlie www.awakeningtotheeternal.net Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> wrote: > who am i to argue <smiling inside> ? Your point about deep sleep is one i > have been quite interested in and puzzled by. There was one time that I > slept deeply and was snoring yet Awareness was aware and there was an > unbounded I am ... all happening at once. Lasted a few minutes, never > appeared since. > > It's all such fun to discuss though, on days I don't have to chop wood and > carry water (aka sell cars.) I imagine selling cars brings you in contact with people having desires. They think: " I want that car but can I afford it, or should I buy a cheaper car, or maybe I should buy a Volvo? " ))) Then you tell the customer: " I can see that you are filled with doubt and uncertainty, but you didn't come here to make a choice, you have already made it " al. > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:22 AM > Nisargadatta > Re: What is fear? > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > wrote: > > hello Anders > > > > sometimes there is an experiencer, sometimes there is experiencing > with NO > > experiencer. The pointer is to That which allows both 'states' to > appear. > > > > As Nisargadatta said, " I am that which knows that I am " > > > > however, what the bleep do *i* know!? > > > > Love, > > charlie > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > I believe that there will always be an experiencer. In fact, I don't > think there can be a world without a conscious experiencer. That > experiencer is the " I am " , the " I am that which knows that I am " . > > But what about dreamless sleep? Surely there is a world there even > when I am in deep sleep. Not necessarily. Pardon me for nagging about > this issue: but we do not know if we ever have been in dreamless > sleep. A memory of having been asleep is not automatically the same > thing as real sleep. Maybe there is no such thing as sleep. Maybe > awareness is always aware and without awareness there is no world. > > al. > > > > > > > > > anders_lindman [anders_lindman] > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:46 AM > > Nisargadatta > > Re: What is fear? > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Charlie Hayes " <awakenow@e...> > > wrote: > > > for what it's worth (probably nothing :-) > > > > > > Without thinking, feeling, seeing, > > > > > > hearing, remembering... > > > > > > > > > > > > do you exist? ... or not exist? > > > > > > > > > > > > There is NO separate 'you' or 'me.' Try to find a me - a > separate self - > > > there isn't one. > > > > > > > > > > > > Look deeply. > > > > > > > > > > > > You will soon see that all there is, IS ... > > > > > > an unshaken unmoveable peace - spaceless -timeless - > > > > > > > > > > > > unchanging, untouched, invincible, always so. > > > > > > > > > > > > That, you are. > > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only a separate 'me-entity' can suffer. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you discover there is no separate 'you' the suffering ends in a > > single > > > strike of the scimitar of your own Original Nature > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear depends on an illusory 'person' to be fearful ... thinking > > about its > > > 'future' > > > > > > when there is no person there is no concern for a future 'what will > > happen > > > to me' ... and, there can be the organism's natural response to a > > threat to > > > it's integrity. > > > > > > a story ... > > > > > > There once was a sage who lived in a lonely temple high in the > > mountains. He > > > was visited one day by a wandering monk. As the two were talking > a wild > > > animal roared close by, and the visiting monk, supposedly > Enlightened, > > > jumped. " I see it is still with you, " said the sage...referring, of > > course, > > > to the instinctive " passion " of fright. Shortly afterwards, > while he was > > > unobserved for a moment, the visiting monk inscribed the Chinese > > character > > > for the Buddha on the rock the sage was accustomed to sit. When > the sage > > > returned to sit down he saw the sacred Name and hesitated to sit. " I > > see, " > > > said the wandering monk, " it is still with you! " > > > > > > Love, > > > charlie > > > www.awakeningtotheeternal.net > > > > > > Hi charlie, > > > > Isn't there an experiencer always? Isn't there at least experience > > experienced by you? Can you deny that you exist? Can you deny that > > there is a somebody experiencing events and situations? We maybe > > cannot say that the experiences imply a separate " me " , yet can you > > deny experience itself? Can you deny yourself? And can you truly say > > that you do not suffer only because you have discovered that there is > > no " me " ? Do you not experience fear? > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta > > [Nisargadatta ]On > > > Behalf Of anders_lindman > > > Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:24 AM > > > Nisargadatta > > > What is fear? > > > > > > > > > > > > Fear equals the estimated risk of suffering. In that sense > fear is a > > > guide helping us avoid suffering. But the problem with fear is > that it > > > is itself suffering. Fear prevents flow. The more fear, the more > > > frozen stiff we become. When we experience fear, the chance of > > > suffering is 100%! And the problem is that we virtually always > > > experience fear. The fear may be hidden as a frozen contraction in > > > body and mind, but it is nevertheless always there. > > > > > > I have come to believe that fear is what fuels the thinking > mind. And > > > desire is another fuel for the thinking mind. Desire is the > > > accelerator, and fear is the brake. Thinking happens as a > result of > > > stepping on the accelerator (desire) with full force, while at the > > > same time Nature is stepping on the brake (fear) with full > force. Can > > > you get a taste of the conflict involved in such behaviour? > > > > > > The absence of fear would bring about an unbalance in the mind > guided > > > by desires. The world must act in balance and harmony between > people. > > > And only those desires acting in accord with the rest of the world > > > will be able to uphold such balance. But personal desires are > > > incapable of functioning in harmony with the world. Why? Because > > > personal desires are limited to the narrow personal view and > personal > > > knowledge people are equipped with. > > > > > > Desires are not bad because they are wrong. Desires are bad > because > > > they are limited. Not only are desires limited, they are > always the > > > past trying to repeat itself. There is nothing new in desires, > and the > > > world is ever new. As long as those limited and static desires > guide a > > > person, she or he will always live in a state of fear. You cannot > > > remove fear without upgrading your desires. And you probably don't > > > know how to upgrade your desires. > > > > > > The only way out of fear is to desire what is now. We want > change, we > > > want adventure, and we want fun stuff to happen. Therefore we look > > > into the future because the now is mostly giving us fear, boredom, > > > loneliness, despair, restlessness, frustration and hatred. But > this is > > > so only because your desires are limited and unflexible. If your > > > desires are converted into desiring the now, then fear is not > needed, > > > and new and interesting stuff will happen by itself because > the world > > > is ever new. > > > > > > When you desire only what is now, then what do you need to be > afraid > > > of? Are you concerned about how you look in the eyes of other > people? > > > Then you are having desires about the future. Then you live in > fear. > > > But is that human? > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your > > > subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: > > > > > > /mygroups?edit=1 > > > > > > Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the > > Nisargadatta > > > group and click on Save Changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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