Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 Do you realize that most statements which contain the unqualified word 'nothing' are either hopelessly imprecise, or false? Take for example, " there is nothing here. " What I really mean by that is that object x is not in my room. By saying that, I'm not even categorically declaring the absence of object x, but only my lack of knowledge of its presence. X might very well be here, as my wife has frequently demonstrated to me. When we say, there was nothing before the Big Bang, we are only saying, as far as we know now.... The word nothing unless precisely qualified negates only knowledge. Absence of knowledge could be partial, or total. Complete nothingness is the absence of all knowledge, including the absence of the knowledge of the knower. Complete absence of knowledge like under anesthesia, or a comma, or before we were even conceived is as close as we can get to nothing. On waking up we become aware of a gap in our knowing, a complete unknowing in which even the subject of knowledge was absence. But we can't negate existence. A statement such as, " nothing exist, " is, obviously false, otherwise, how could that statement have been made. Such statement is made either in ignorance, or to shock, to convey the notion that objects whether physical or mental exist co-dependently, and lack permanency. So, to know, or not to know is the real question. To be ... well, existence goes without saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > So, to know, or not to know is the real question. > To be ... well, existence goes without saying. Well, you know that you exist, right? And, you know that you are aware, because you are aware that you are. That's all anyone needs to know. Everything else is just icing on the cake. Have a good day, fuzzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > > So, to know, or not to know is the real question. > > To be ... well, existence goes without saying. > > > Well, you know that you exist, right? And, you know that you are > aware, because you are aware that you are. That's all anyone needs to > know. Everything else is just icing on the cake. > > > > Have a good day, > > fuzzie I am curious to know about if something like global consciousness is possible, a sort of " We are " -consciousness and not only a solitary " I am " -consciousness. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > I am curious to know about if something like global consciousness is > possible, a sort of " We are " -consciousness and not only a solitary " I > am " -consciousness. > > al. The I AM is all there is. I know that I exist because I am conscious of myself. I know that you exist because I am conscious of you. I know that we exist because I am conscious of we. The I AM is the heart of it all. When you remain as I AM you are already globally conscious. Yours, fuzzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2005 Report Share Posted April 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > I am curious to know about if something like global consciousness is > > possible, a sort of " We are " -consciousness and not only a solitary " I > > am " -consciousness. > > > > al. > > > The I AM is all there is. I know that I exist because I am conscious > of myself. I know that you exist because I am conscious of you. I know > that we exist because I am conscious of we. The I AM is the heart of > it all. When you remain as I AM you are already globally conscious. > > Yours, > > fuzzie Did the " you " ........ and those people in your dream last night exist? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > I am curious to know about if something like global consciousness is > > possible, a sort of " We are " -consciousness and not only a solitary " I > > am " -consciousness. > > > > al. > > > The I AM is all there is. I know that I exist because I am conscious > of myself. I know that you exist because I am conscious of you. I know > that we exist because I am conscious of we. The I AM is the heart of > it all. When you remain as I AM you are already globally conscious. > > Yours, > > fuzzie But I am talking about an actual global mind. Like evolution creating a new form of holon (a whole that is a part of other wholes). For example, molecules are holons which are parts of cells (holons) which are parts of multi-celled organisms (holons). The next step in evolution is perhaps the creation of a new holon, where multi-celled organisms will be part of Gaia, an enormous new holon consisting of the whole planet as an awoken new state of being. I am talking about a new form of intelligence that will surpass any known form of intelligence existing today by a factor of billion, billion times... Maybe there cannot be true enlightenment without planetary consciousness awakening. Just look at this planet today, it's stupid! This planet is not _born_ yet. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > Did the " you " ........ and those people in your dream last night > exist? > > > toombaru You'll have to ask " those people " to whom you are referring whether they existed or not. If you are asking did I exist in my sleep last night the answer is obviously yes. fuzzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I am curious to know about if something like global consciousness is > > > possible, a sort of " We are " -consciousness and not only a solitary " I > > > am " -consciousness. > > > > > > al. > > > > > > The I AM is all there is. I know that I exist because I am conscious > > of myself. I know that you exist because I am conscious of you. I know > > that we exist because I am conscious of we. The I AM is the heart of > > it all. When you remain as I AM you are already globally conscious. > > > > Yours, > > > > fuzzie > > > But I am talking about an actual global mind. Like evolution creating > a new form of holon (a whole that is a part of other wholes). For > example, molecules are holons which are parts of cells (holons) which > are parts of multi-celled organisms (holons). The next step in > evolution is perhaps the creation of a new holon, where multi-celled > organisms will be part of Gaia, an enormous new holon consisting of > the whole planet as an awoken new state of being. I am talking about a > new form of intelligence that will surpass any known form of > intelligence existing today by a factor of billion, billion times... > > Maybe there cannot be true enlightenment without planetary > consciousness awakening. Just look at this planet today, it's stupid! > This planet is not _born_ yet. > > al. I don't know what to tell you about all that. I can only speak for myself. Good luck, fuzzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am curious to know about if something like global consciousness is > > > > possible, a sort of " We are " -consciousness and not only a > solitary " I > > > > am " -consciousness. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > The I AM is all there is. I know that I exist because I am conscious > > > of myself. I know that you exist because I am conscious of you. I know > > > that we exist because I am conscious of we. The I AM is the heart of > > > it all. When you remain as I AM you are already globally conscious. > > > > > > Yours, > > > > > > fuzzie > > > > > > But I am talking about an actual global mind. Like evolution creating > > a new form of holon (a whole that is a part of other wholes). For > > example, molecules are holons which are parts of cells (holons) which > > are parts of multi-celled organisms (holons). The next step in > > evolution is perhaps the creation of a new holon, where multi-celled > > organisms will be part of Gaia, an enormous new holon consisting of > > the whole planet as an awoken new state of being. I am talking about a > > new form of intelligence that will surpass any known form of > > intelligence existing today by a factor of billion, billion times... > > > > Maybe there cannot be true enlightenment without planetary > > consciousness awakening. Just look at this planet today, it's stupid! > > This planet is not _born_ yet. > > > > al. > > > > I don't know what to tell you about all that. I can only speak for > myself. > > Good luck, > > fuzzie What I wrote is perhaps better suited for a fantasy or sci-fi novel, but I find it interesting to think outside the box. If there truly is possible for a global planerary concsiousness to emerge, no one of us would actually know what that really would be before we entered such new state in evolution (in the past, when there were no humans on this planet, nobody knew what it would mean to be a human - maybe some evolved apes had dim ideas about a more evolved state of being, but 1 million years ago nobody knew what MTV would be like). Somewhere in the future we will maybe look back at the Internet, which then would be like a prehistoric flint knife compared with the future 'technology'. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > Did the " you " ........ and those people in your dream last night > > exist? > > > > > > toombaru > > > > You'll have to ask " those people " to whom you are referring whether > they existed or not. If you are asking did I exist in my sleep last > night the answer is obviously yes. > > fuzzie The " people " in " your " dream last night do not exist. There is simply no one there to ask. The " you " that you think is yourself....does not exist..... It is merely a clot of memories. Where were you a hundred years ago? Where will this you....... that you are so proud of ......be a hundred years from now? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Did the " you " ........ and those people in your dream last night > > > exist? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > You'll have to ask " those people " to whom you are referring whether > > they existed or not. If you are asking did I exist in my sleep last > > night the answer is obviously yes. > > > > fuzzie > > > The " people " in " your " dream last night do not exist. > > There is simply no one there to ask. > > The " you " that you think is yourself....does not exist..... > > It is merely a clot of memories. > > Where were you a hundred years ago? > > Where will this you....... that you are so proud of ......be a hundred years from now? > > > toombaru Hi, toombaru: What " people " in my dream? You imagine there are people in a dream that I allegedly had and, then, you tell me that these " people " , that you envision, don't exist. Your mind is riddled with unfounded presumptions. I have always existed. It has nothing to do with pride, as you suggest. I am not this body. Turn your mind back upon itself, away from imagining things, like " people " in somebody else's dream, and find it's source. You will find that you are not your body, not your mind, not your dreams, imaginings or presumptions. You will find that you are the being-awareness within which all " things " take place. The problem is simply a case of mistaken identity. You presume you are that which you are not. Finally, tell me, yes or no, do you exist? Even if you say " no " , it is clear that that which speaks most assuredly does exist. Otherwise, you would not respond. Then, secondly, do you have awareness? If you answer these two questions sincerely, honestly, you will realize you are nothing but pure being-awareness. The body, the mind, the world, etc., etc., are tertiary, superfluous, conditional, impermanent, etc. But, the I AM awareness is constant. There is never a time when you are not being-aware. Not even when you are in denial. Yours truly, fuzzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Did the " you " ........ and those people in your dream last night > > > > exist? > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > You'll have to ask " those people " to whom you are referring whether > > > they existed or not. If you are asking did I exist in my sleep last > > > night the answer is obviously yes. > > > > > > fuzzie > > > > > > The " people " in " your " dream last night do not exist. > > > > There is simply no one there to ask. > > > > The " you " that you think is yourself....does not exist..... > > > > It is merely a clot of memories. > > > > Where were you a hundred years ago? > > > > Where will this you....... that you are so proud of ......be a > hundred years from now? > > > > > > toombaru > > > Hi, toombaru: > > What " people " in my dream? You imagine there are people in a dream > that I allegedly had and, then, you tell me that these " people " , that > you envision, don't exist. Your mind is riddled with unfounded > presumptions. > > I have always existed. It has nothing to do with pride, as you > suggest. I am not this body. Turn your mind back upon itself, away > from imagining things, like " people " in somebody else's dream, and > find it's source. You will find that you are not your body, not your > mind, not your dreams, imaginings or presumptions. You will find that > you are the being-awareness within which all " things " take place. The > problem is simply a case of mistaken identity. You presume you are > that which you are not. It is the I am (identity) itself out of which the dream spins its-self. Beyond the I am door.......nothing is. > > Finally, tell me, yes or no, do you exist? Does a river exist? Does a mountain exist? Even if you say " no " , it is > clear that that which speaks most assuredly does exist. Otherwise, you > would not respond. Then, secondly, do you have awareness? There is awareness...but no one has it. If you > answer these two questions sincerely, honestly, you will realize you > are nothing but pure being-awareness. The body, the mind, the world, > etc., etc., are tertiary, superfluous, conditional, impermanent, etc. > But, the I AM awareness is constant. Nisargadatta speaks of That ....beyond the Iamness. There is never a time when you > are not being-aware. " Time " and " I Am " are conjoined twins. > > Not even when you are in denial. ...there is denial......but no one is " in it " toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 NonDualPhil , " Tony OClery " <aoclery> wrote: NonDualPhil , " lordofthemystic " <lordofthemystic> wrote: > > > Namaste, > > > > Nothing is happening. Knowledge is ignorance or avidya. Before the > > big bang or whatever theory, there was a subtle and causal plane- - > > both never having ever happened. > > > > Very simply that which we are and see, never happened. There is only > > a negative description -Nir guna..........Tony. > > If " that which we are and see, never happened " then 'are we?' And, 'is > there anything to see?' > > I don't think the answers that you need to make your statement work will > fit here. Namaste, No answer in knowledge will fit, for knowledge is avidya/nescience or non knowledge. We are in a state of deep sleep, discounting the dream and waking states as being both dreams. The deep sleep state is what separates us from realisation. On awakening we find it never happened.......ONS...Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " fuzzie_wuz " <fuzzie_wuz> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did the " you " ........ and those people in your dream last night > > > > > exist? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You'll have to ask " those people " to whom you are referring whether > > > > they existed or not. If you are asking did I exist in my sleep last > > > > night the answer is obviously yes. > > > > > > > > fuzzie > > > > > > > > > The " people " in " your " dream last night do not exist. > > > > > > There is simply no one there to ask. > > > > > > The " you " that you think is yourself....does not exist..... > > > > > > It is merely a clot of memories. > > > > > > Where were you a hundred years ago? > > > > > > Where will this you....... that you are so proud of ......be a > > hundred years from now? > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Hi, toombaru: > > > > What " people " in my dream? You imagine there are people in a dream > > that I allegedly had and, then, you tell me that these " people " , that > > you envision, don't exist. Your mind is riddled with unfounded > > presumptions. > > > > I have always existed. It has nothing to do with pride, as you > > suggest. I am not this body. Turn your mind back upon itself, away > > from imagining things, like " people " in somebody else's dream, and > > find it's source. You will find that you are not your body, not your > > mind, not your dreams, imaginings or presumptions. You will find that > > you are the being-awareness within which all " things " take place. The > > problem is simply a case of mistaken identity. You presume you are > > that which you are not. > > > It is the I am (identity) itself out of which the dream spins its-self. > > Beyond the I am door.......nothing is. > > > > > > > Finally, tell me, yes or no, do you exist? > > > > > Does a river exist? > > Does a mountain exist? > > > > Even if you say " no " , it is > > clear that that which speaks most assuredly does exist. Otherwise, you > > would not respond. Then, secondly, do you have awareness? > > > > There is awareness...but no one has it. > > > > If you > > answer these two questions sincerely, honestly, you will realize you > > are nothing but pure being-awareness. The body, the mind, the world, > > etc., etc., are tertiary, superfluous, conditional, impermanent, etc. > > But, the I AM awareness is constant. > > > Nisargadatta speaks of That ....beyond the Iamness. > > > > There is never a time when you > > are not being-aware. > > > > > " Time " and " I Am " are conjoined twins. > > > > > > > > > Not even when you are in denial. > > > ..there is denial......but no one is " in it " > > > toombaru Dear toombaru: I can't get any straight answers from you. Just denials. You should work for the State Department. No, but, really... you are saying that mountains and rivers don't exist, either? I think mountains and rivers are totally conscious and are just as much God and Guru as anything, even Sri Nisargadatta. But, I can see there's not much use in arguing with you. Your mind is made up. You're harder to crack than a hardshell Baptist. But, it's all good, bro. It is what it is. I still love ya, anyway. Yours, fuzzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 > > Dear toombaru: > > I can't get any straight answers from you. Just denials. You should > work for the State Department. No, but, really... you are saying > that mountains and rivers don't exist, either? I think mountains and > rivers are totally conscious and are just as much God and Guru as > anything, even Sri Nisargadatta. > > But, I can see there's not much use in arguing with you. Your mind is > made up. You're harder to crack than a hardshell Baptist. But, it's > all good, bro. It is what it is. I still love ya, anyway. > > Yours, > > fuzzie Can you draw a line around a mountain? Does it go all the way to the center of the earth? Where does a river begin or end? When the Missouri River flows into the Mississippi River.....where does it go? How big does a pile of dirt have to be...... to be called a mountain? When does a stream become a river? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 - toombaru2004 Nisargadatta Monday, April 18, 2005 9:19 PM Re: The Impossible Nothingness of Being > > Dear toombaru: > > I can't get any straight answers from you. Just denials. You should > work for the State Department. No, but, really... you are saying > that mountains and rivers don't exist, either? I think mountains and > rivers are totally conscious and are just as much God and Guru as > anything, even Sri Nisargadatta. > > But, I can see there's not much use in arguing with you. Your mind is > made up. You're harder to crack than a hardshell Baptist. But, it's > all good, bro. It is what it is. I still love ya, anyway. > > Yours, > > fuzzie Can you draw a line around a mountain? Does it go all the way to the center of the earth? Where does a river begin or end? When the Missouri River flows into the Mississippi River.....where does it go? How big does a pile of dirt have to be...... to be called a mountain? When does a stream become a river? toombaru You two, Absolutely adorable you are.... (in Yoda voice) ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear toombaru: > > > > I can't get any straight answers from you. Just denials. You should > > work for the State Department. No, but, really... you are saying > > that mountains and rivers don't exist, either? I think mountains and > > rivers are totally conscious and are just as much God and Guru as > > anything, even Sri Nisargadatta. > > > > But, I can see there's not much use in arguing with you. Your mind is > > made up. You're harder to crack than a hardshell Baptist. But, it's > > all good, bro. It is what it is. I still love ya, anyway. > > > > Yours, > > > > fuzzie > > > > Can you draw a line around a mountain? > > > Does it go all the way to the center of the earth? > > > Where does a river begin or end? > > When the Missouri River flows into the Mississippi River.....where does it go? > > How big does a pile of dirt have to be...... to be called a mountain? > > When does a stream become a river? > > > toombaru hello, toombaru: Yeah, I know: Who was that mountain in my dream last night? (That was no mountain, that was my wife [drum rimshot]). You are just playing semantical games, toombaru. And, that's cool. We all need to amuse ourselves. And, that's as good a way as any. Peace, brother fuzzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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