Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > toombaru Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > toombaru > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > -- Dan Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. There is only the dream....dreaming. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 a dreamed character dreams it is a dreamer where is the dreamer where is the dream where is what is and what is not ? love c toombaru2004 <cptc wrote: Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > toombaru > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > -- Dan Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. There is only the dream....dreaming. toombaru ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2005 Report Share Posted April 17, 2005 Hi Charlie, there is only here there is only now how could there Be anything else? who would Be this someone else? ! love anna gassho to you for your homage to That which sells... - " Charlie Hayes " <chreiki3 <Nisargadatta > Sunday, April 17, 2005 7:07 PM Re: Re: Dream / T a dreamed character dreams it is a dreamer where is the dreamer where is the dream where is what is and what is not ? love c toombaru2004 <cptc wrote: Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > toombaru > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > -- Dan Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. There is only the dream....dreaming. toombaru ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > > > -- Dan > > > > Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... > > Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? > > No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > > > toombaru ** " there is only... " statements are nonsensical. Some kind of separate observer assumption is involved, but not examined/inquired-into. " There is only the dream " ... " there is only Consciousness " " there is only God " .... " there is only Love, " etc.-- all of a kind, as statements go. Something affirmed, something thereby denied and vice-versa. A circular exercise of descriptions, only-- but mistaken as some ultimate verity, or actuality. Yes, you're right when you point out that there are no entities, things (as such) and objects. But same applies to 'the dream,' as if it were an object. So, no dream, no 'mystery,' no 'illusion,' whatsoever--just the inability to perceive the obvious-- directly. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... > > > > > > Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? > > > > > > No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. > > > > > > > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > ** " there is only... " statements are nonsensical. > > Some kind of separate observer assumption is involved, > > but not examined/inquired-into. > > > We've covered this. The observer...is the observed. ..there is no separation.....anywhere. > > > > > > " There is only the dream " ... " there is only Consciousness " > > " there is only God " .... " there is only Love, " etc.-- all of a > > kind, > > as statements go. Something affirmed, something thereby denied > > and vice-versa. A circular exercise of descriptions, only-- > > but mistaken as some ultimate verity, or actuality. > > > > Yes, you're right when you point out that there are no > > entities, things (as such) and objects. But same applies to > > 'the dream,' as if it were an object. > > > > So, no dream, no 'mystery,' no 'illusion,' whatsoever--just the > > inability to perceive the obvious-- directly. > > > > Ken > > a swing.......and a miss. Perception is the labyrinth....not the road out. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 In a message dated 4/18/05 7:37:41 AM, mybox234 writes: > He hasn't quite grasped the " difficult " concept - metaphor. > He read somewhere (probably Wei Wu Wei) that " there is only the dream > dreaming " (WWW probably didn't use the silly ellipses for effect as T > can't seem to help from using, ad infinitum), but failed to discover > (or WWW didn't know it either), that it's just a metaphor, the very > idea is just a metaphor, not to be taken concretely as DOGMA. > > P: Really! Un-poetic, literally minded people are a hemorrhoid in their own ass. Just an un-poetic meta4, not to be taken literally. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > > > -- Dan > > > > Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... > > Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? > > No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > > > toombaru No, there isn't. What makes you think there's a dream? -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... > > > > > > > > Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? > > > > > > > > No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > ** " there is only... " statements are nonsensical. > > > Some kind of separate observer assumption is involved, > > > but not examined/inquired-into. > > > > > > > We've covered this. > > The observer...is the observed. > > ..there is no separation.....anywhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > " There is only the dream " ... " there is only Consciousness " > > > " there is only God " .... " there is only Love, " etc.-- all of a > > > kind, > > > as statements go. Something affirmed, something thereby denied > > > and vice-versa. A circular exercise of descriptions, only-- > > > but mistaken as some ultimate verity, or actuality. > > > > > > Yes, you're right when you point out that there are no > > > entities, things (as such) and objects. But same applies to > > > 'the dream,' as if it were an object. > > > > > > So, no dream, no 'mystery,' no 'illusion,' whatsoever-- just the > > > inability to perceive the obvious-- directly. > > > > > > Ken > > > a swing.......and a miss. > > > Perception is the labyrinth....not > the road out. > > > > toombaru Oh, I see, T. You've found the road out and Ken hasn't. So, from what you've been saying, I gather that you're in the dream where there's a road out of the dream, and you found it, but other dream characters didn't. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > > > > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... > > > > Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? > > > > No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. > > > > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > No, there isn't. > > What makes you think there's a dream? > > -- Dan This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > wrote: > > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > toombaru > > No, there isn't. > What makes you think there's a dream? > -- Dan He hasn't quite grasped the " difficult " concept - metaphor. He read somewhere (probably Wei Wu Wei) that " there is only the dream dreaming " (WWW probably didn't use the silly ellipses for effect as T can't seem to help from using, ad infinitum), but failed to discover (or WWW didn't know it either), that it's just a metaphor, the very idea is just a metaphor, not to be taken concretely as DOGMA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... > > > > > > Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? > > > > > > No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. > > > > > > > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > No, there isn't. > > > > What makes you think there's a dream? > > > > -- Dan > > > > >T: This. D: This is just this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 :-) Anna Ruiz <nli10u wrote:Hi Charlie, there is only here there is only now how could there Be anything else? who would Be this someone else? ! love anna gassho to you for your homage to That which sells... - " Charlie Hayes " <chreiki3 <Nisargadatta > Sunday, April 17, 2005 7:07 PM Re: Re: Dream / T a dreamed character dreams it is a dreamer where is the dreamer where is the dream where is what is and what is not ? love c toombaru2004 <cptc wrote: Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > toombaru > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > -- Dan Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. There is only the dream....dreaming. toombaru ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " > <kenj02001> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " > <cptc@w...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " > <cptc@w...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment > about? > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... > > > > > > > > > > Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? > > > > > > > > > > No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > ** " there is only... " statements are nonsensical. > > > > Some kind of separate observer assumption is involved, > > > > but not examined/inquired-into. > > > > > > > > > > > We've covered this. > > > > The observer...is the observed. > > > > ..there is no separation.....anywhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " There is only the dream " ... " there is only Consciousness " > > > > " there is only God " .... " there is only Love, " etc.-- all > of a > > > > kind, > > > > as statements go. Something affirmed, something thereby > denied > > > > and vice-versa. A circular exercise of descriptions, > only-- > > > > but mistaken as some ultimate verity, or actuality. > > > > > > > > Yes, you're right when you point out that there are no > > > > entities, things (as such) and objects. But same applies > to > > > > 'the dream,' as if it were an object. > > > > > > > > So, no dream, no 'mystery,' no 'illusion,' whatsoever-- > just the > > > > inability to perceive the obvious-- directly. > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a swing.......and a miss. > > > > > > Perception is the labyrinth....not > > the road out. > > > > > > > > toombaru > > Oh, I see, T. > > You've found the road out and Ken hasn't. > > So, from what you've been saying, I > gather that you're in the dream where there's > a road out of the dream, and you found > it, but other dream characters didn't. > > -- Dan Nisargadatta refers to the " I am " as the " door in " and the " door out " . (They aren't really doors Dan.... " doors " .... " roads " .... " dream " etc....are just symbols ya know.) toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta refers to the " I am " as the " door in " and the " door out " . > > (They aren't really doors Dan.... " doors " .... " roads " .... " dream " etc....are just symbols ya know.) > > > toombaru Hi Toombaru - Yup. And direct knowing involves no symbol, no image, no memory. Spontaneous clarity. Just this. Certainly, such doesn't involve the symbols I provided above. Nor is Niz here, nor the symbols he provided by placing one word after another in a sequence that could be understood and comprehended by associating those symbols with their known meanings. If one wants to use the image of a door in and out, i am is fine, works for me. Imageless knowing has no need of a door, though. A door implies someone who came out and then went back. So, that symbol certainly has its limitations. But then, they all do. -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta refers to the " I am " as the " door in " and the " door > out " . > > > > (They aren't really doors Dan.... " doors " .... " roads " .... " dream " > etc....are just symbols ya know.) > > > > > > toombaru > > Hi Toombaru - > > Yup. > > And direct knowing involves no symbol, no image, > no memory. Spontaneous clarity. Just this. > > Certainly, such doesn't involve the symbols I provided > above. Nor is Niz here, nor the symbols he provided > by placing one word after another in a sequence that > could be understood and comprehended by associating > those symbols with their known meanings. > > If one wants to use the image of a door in and out, > i am is fine, works for me. > > Imageless knowing has no need of a door, though. > > A door implies someone who came out and then > went back. So, that symbol certainly has its limitations. > But then, they all do. > > -- Dan " Direct knowing " .......seems oxymoronic. I'm wondering if " thought " can think its self out of this ..........self contained membrain. :-0 toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta refers to the " I am " as the " door in " and the " door > > out " . > > > > > > (They aren't really doors Dan.... " doors " .... " roads " .... " dream " > > etc....are just symbols ya know.) > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Hi Toombaru - > > > > Yup. > > > > And direct knowing involves no symbol, no image, > > no memory. Spontaneous clarity. Just this. > > > > Certainly, such doesn't involve the symbols I provided > > above. Nor is Niz here, nor the symbols he provided > > by placing one word after another in a sequence that > > could be understood and comprehended by associating > > those symbols with their known meanings. > > > > If one wants to use the image of a door in and out, > > i am is fine, works for me. > > > > Imageless knowing has no need of a door, though. > > > > A door implies someone who came out and then > > went back. So, that symbol certainly has its limitations. > > But then, they all do. > > > > -- Dan > > > > " Direct knowing " .......seems oxymoronic. > > I'm wondering if " thought " can think its self out of this ..........self contained membrain. > > > :-0 > > > toombaru Thought is a construct, and includes a construct labelled " knower " as an aspect of " the known " - the known always involving a relation to one who perceives or feels. But that construct of " knower " is itself something known. No actual knower in sight. The known, which depends on a relationship with a knower, dissolves in/as this clarity. Yet, nothing has actually dissolved, because it wasn't there in the first place. A construct never maintains an actual existence in/as a static form over time. Constructs are referred to as if they have this property, which they don't. The thought construct of known and knower is seen through, broken through. And " by whom " is the wrong question :-) -- Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2005 Report Share Posted April 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... > > > > > > > > Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? > > > > > > > > No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > ** " there is only... " statements are nonsensical. > > > Some kind of separate observer assumption is involved, > > > but not examined/inquired-into. > > > > > > > We've covered this. > > The observer...is the observed. ** Is that one no-thing...or two? Look, whether it's dream-ing, image-ing, cognize-ing -- any perceptual/conceptual bubble-ing -- it's instantly, always-already transcended. The art of point-ing is not talking something already dead to death. Trying to 'bury' the dead is... deadening. Ken > > ..there is no separation.....anywhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > " There is only the dream " ... " there is only Consciousness " > > > " there is only God " .... " there is only Love, " etc.-- all of a > > > kind, > > > as statements go. Something affirmed, something thereby denied > > > and vice-versa. A circular exercise of descriptions, only-- > > > but mistaken as some ultimate verity, or actuality. > > > > > > Yes, you're right when you point out that there are no > > > entities, things (as such) and objects. But same applies to > > > 'the dream,' as if it were an object. > > > > > > So, no dream, no 'mystery,' no 'illusion,' whatsoever-- just the > > > inability to perceive the obvious-- directly. > > > > > > Ken > > > a swing.......and a miss. > > > Perception is the labyrinth....not > the road out. > > > > toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leaving some place in a dream....really isn't leaving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that there is a dream you can comment about? > > > > > > > > Are you dreaming that you commented about a dream? > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Dan.......no one's dreaming... > > > > > > Are the people in your dreams at night dreaming? > > > > > > No...........There are no people..........there.....or here. > > > > > > > > > There is only the dream....dreaming. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > No, there isn't. > > > > What makes you think there's a dream? > > > > -- Dan > > > > > This. ** No way. No dream survives the annihilation which is This, which is...Now. And now, this.... -Dan Rather ;=) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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