Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 In the Gita I (Krishna) tell Arjuna that not only does he have to fight but there is nothing he, Arjuna, can do to not fight. Nobody seems to know what I (Krishna) was/am saying. Ramana knew and Nisargadatta knew and Papaji knew but they could never say it – point-blank -- in their books. For Advaita to survive in a dualistic society it cannot give us the most obvious facts about non-duality because these facts would blow society and its dualities and beliefs and needs, and cults, out of the universe. This ineffable message: THERE IS NO DOER. If you put the formula – there is no doer – into the formula of maya, life, then maya is exactly like a movie that has already been made. THAT IS: NOTHING CAN MATTER, because the movie has already been made. It’s like everything has already happened, so the mind and its body are just going through the motions. And so, Krishna tells Arjuna that he has no choice but to do what has already been done. Nothing can matter because nobody is doing anything, we are all imaginary doers who are just going through the motions. This is the meaning of maya. With this formula you can laugh at anything you think and do because there is no “you” who can be doing anything. Further? If you want to commit suicide then " I, " Krishna, will say " Go right ahead " – if it is not in maya then it will never ever happen, and if it is in maya then there is nothing you can do that can prevent the suicide that has already happened. There is no other possible way to read " there is no doer. " And so the joke: there is never a doer that can commit suicide in the first place Further? If you are driving along a busy freeway then let the steering wheel go and step on the accelerator and laugh yourself to death because if you are meant to have an accident then you will have one, and if not, then the car will have to drive by itself (as it did with Papaji) because there is nothing you can do to have the accident that is not written into the movie called maya. Can you now understand what I, Krishna was/am saying? If so then you are Papaji’s 1 in 200 million. All the worry and suffering and rebirths and …. everything is utterly meaningless because from the beginning to the end everything is just thoughts that have to disappear into where they came from the Samadhi of dreamless-sleep called Self. (The Samadhi that is an unfathomable ocean of such JOY that it makes the universe into an imaginary drop. ) LIFE, MAYA, is the Supreme Comedy because NOTHING MATTERS because there is no Doer for whom it can matter. This is the one-and-only-message these Hindu’s woke up to over 5000 years ago. Everything else is utter dualistic rhetoric and garbage. Only if you can understand this no-doer can you understand why I could care less about what “I” write or think or do because there is no I, so I cannot be thinking or doing anything that I can/should care about. And for this, the proverbial 200million-minus-1 are ready to crucify me .. because I am just like Jesus Christ himself who needs yet another crucifixion. I obviously need a crucifixion because I can laugh at any other relative-fool who cannot believe that a saint is a sinner, that Jesus is/was Hitler. Because 2000 years ago, to the Jews Jesus was (a) Hitler; and after WW I, to the Germans Hitler was a (the) savior Jesus. It cannot be any other way: the mind is what it thinks be it the saint Hitler or the devil Jesus. All because only the dreamless-sleep called Samadhi is Real. _____________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Semmi " <semmin@e...> wrote: > > In the Gita I (Krishna) tell Arjuna that not only does he have to fight but there is nothing he, Arjuna, can do to not fight. Nobody seems to know what I (Krishna) was/am saying. > Ramana knew and Nisargadatta knew and Papaji knew but they could never say it – point-blank -- in their books. For Advaita to survive in a dualistic society it cannot give us the most obvious facts about non-duality because these facts would blow society and its dualities and beliefs and needs, and cults, out of the universe. This ineffable message: THERE IS NO DOER. > If you put the formula – there is no doer – into the formula of maya, life, then maya is exactly like a movie that has already been made. THAT IS: NOTHING CAN MATTER, because the movie has already been made. It's like everything has already happened, so the mind and its body are just going through the motions. > And so, Krishna tells Arjuna that he has no choice but to do what has already been done. > Nothing can matter because nobody is doing anything, we are all imaginary doers who are just going through the motions. This is the meaning of maya. With this formula you can laugh at anything you think and do because there is no " you " who can be doing anything. > Further? If you want to commit suicide then " I, " Krishna, will say " Go right ahead " – if it is not in maya then it will never ever happen, and if it is in maya then there is nothing you can do that can prevent the suicide that has already happened. There is no other possible way to read " there is no doer. " And so the joke: there is never a doer that can commit suicide in the first place > Further? If you are driving along a busy freeway then let the steering wheel go and step on the accelerator and laugh yourself to death because if you are meant to have an accident then you will have one, and if not, then the car will have to drive by itself (as it did with Papaji) because there is nothing you can do to have the accident that is not written into the movie called maya. Can you now understand what I, Krishna was/am saying? If so then you are Papaji's 1 in 200 million. > All the worry and suffering and rebirths and …. everything is utterly meaningless because from the beginning to the end everything is just thoughts that have to disappear into where they came from the Samadhi of dreamless-sleep called Self. (The Samadhi that is an unfathomable ocean of such JOY that it makes the universe into an imaginary drop. ) > LIFE, MAYA, is the Supreme Comedy because NOTHING MATTERS because there is no Doer for whom it can matter. This is the one-and-only-message these Hindu's woke up to over 5000 years ago. Everything else is utter dualistic rhetoric and garbage. > Only if you can understand this no-doer can you understand why I could care less about what " I " write or think or do because there is no I, so I cannot be thinking or doing anything that I can/should care about. And for this, the proverbial 200million-minus-1 are ready to crucify me .. because I am just like Jesus Christ himself who needs yet another crucifixion. I obviously need a crucifixion because I can laugh at any other relative-fool who cannot believe that a saint is a sinner, that Jesus is/was Hitler. Because 2000 years ago, to the Jews Jesus was (a) Hitler; and after WW I, to the Germans Hitler was a (the) savior Jesus. > It cannot be any other way: the mind is what it thinks be it the saint Hitler or the devil Jesus. > All because only the dreamless-sleep called Samadhi is Real. Dear Semmi, Those words are bold, fearless, rugged, controversial for some, curosity arousing. No doer is understood and I have a request. For some readers, the idea of no doer and or the actuality of no doer is counterintuitive. For example, usual questions are: How can there be no doer when conscious doing is always occurring during waking time? Who is writing posts? Who responds to posts? Who is the I that says " I cannot be thinking or doing anything that I can/should care about. " How can there be no doer when doing is occuring? This is nonsense! Then there are also qualified assertions, where the doer is not personal: There is consciousness/awareness that you are. There is a doer just not a personal one. It is impersonal. There is a purusha that interacts with the material world through the mind. The mind does. There is I AM. The impersonal I Am does. Then there is Nirguna Brahman: Nothing ever happened. All doing never happened. Now it seems a simple matter that there is no doer to be found even as as all sorts of doing appears. Yet it is not understood. Could you explain in words the " experience " of no doer and no doing? Could you explain without asserting illusion? Can you describe what it is like to read and post a response or some other " doing " commonly undergone like eating or driving a car or playing a sport or conversing? Thanks. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Lewis Burgess " <lbb10@c...> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Semmi " <semmin@e...> wrote: > > > > In the Gita I (Krishna) tell Arjuna that not only does he have to > fight but there is nothing he, Arjuna, can do to not fight. Nobody > seems to know what I (Krishna) was/am saying. > > Ramana knew and Nisargadatta knew and Papaji knew but they could > never say it – point-blank -- in their books. For Advaita to survive > in a dualistic society it cannot give us the most obvious facts about > non-duality because these facts would blow society and its dualities > and beliefs and needs, and cults, out of the universe. This ineffable > message: THERE IS NO DOER. > > If you put the formula – there is no doer – into the formula of > maya, life, then maya is exactly like a movie that has already been > made. THAT IS: NOTHING CAN MATTER, because the movie has already been > made. It's like everything has already happened, so the mind and its > body are just going through the motions. > > And so, Krishna tells Arjuna that he has no choice but to do what > has already been done. > > Nothing can matter because nobody is doing anything, we are all > imaginary doers who are just going through the motions. This is the > meaning of maya. With this formula you can laugh at anything you think > and do because there is no " you " who can be doing anything. > > Further? If you want to commit suicide then " I, " Krishna, will say > " Go right ahead " – if it is not in maya then it will never ever > happen, and if it is in maya then there is nothing you can do that can > prevent the suicide that has already happened. There is no other > possible way to read " there is no doer. " And so the joke: there is > never a doer that can commit suicide in the first place > > Further? If you are driving along a busy freeway then let the > steering wheel go and step on the accelerator and laugh yourself to > death because if you are meant to have an accident then you will have > one, and if not, then the car will have to drive by itself (as it > did with Papaji) because there is nothing you can do to have the > accident that is not written into the movie called maya. Can you now > understand what I, Krishna was/am saying? If so then you are Papaji's > 1 in 200 million. > > All the worry and suffering and rebirths and …. everything is > utterly meaningless because from the beginning to the end everything > is just thoughts that have to disappear into where they came from the > Samadhi of dreamless-sleep called Self. (The Samadhi that is an > unfathomable ocean of such JOY that it makes the universe into an > imaginary drop. ) > > LIFE, MAYA, is the Supreme Comedy because NOTHING MATTERS because > there is no Doer for whom it can matter. This is the > one-and-only-message these Hindu's woke up to over 5000 years ago. > Everything else is utter dualistic rhetoric and garbage. > > Only if you can understand this no-doer can you understand why I > could care less about what " I " write or think or do because there is > no I, so I cannot be thinking or doing anything that I can/should > care about. And for this, the proverbial 200million-minus-1 are ready > to crucify me .. because I am just like Jesus Christ himself who > needs yet another crucifixion. I obviously need a crucifixion > because I can laugh at any other relative-fool who cannot believe > that a saint is a sinner, that Jesus is/was Hitler. Because 2000 > years ago, to the Jews Jesus was (a) Hitler; and after WW I, to the > Germans Hitler was a (the) savior Jesus. > > It cannot be any other way: the mind is what it thinks be it the > saint Hitler or the devil Jesus. > > All because only the dreamless-sleep called Samadhi is Real. > > > Dear Semmi, > > Those words are bold, fearless, rugged, controversial for some, > curosity arousing. No doer is understood and I have a request. For > some readers, the idea of no doer and or the actuality of no doer is > counterintuitive. > > For example, usual questions are: > > How can there be no doer when conscious doing is always occurring > during waking time? > Who is writing posts? > Who responds to posts? > Who is the I that says " I cannot be thinking or doing anything that I > can/should care about. " > How can there be no doer when doing is occuring? This is nonsense! > > Then there are also qualified assertions, where the doer is not personal: > > There is consciousness/awareness that you are. There is a doer just > not a personal one. It is impersonal. > There is a purusha that interacts with the material world through the > mind. The mind does. > There is I AM. The impersonal I Am does. > > > Then there is Nirguna Brahman: > Nothing ever happened. All doing never happened. > > > Now it seems a simple matter that there is no doer to be found even as > as all sorts of doing appears. Yet it is not understood. > > Could you explain in words the " experience " of no doer and no doing? > Could you explain without asserting illusion? Can you describe what it > is like to read and post a response or some other " doing " commonly > undergone like eating or driving a car or playing a sport or conversing? > > Thanks. > > Lewis See a detailed response here. 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Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Semmi " <semmin@e...> wrote: > > In the Gita I (Krishna) tell Arjuna that not only does he have to fight but there is nothing he, Arjuna, can do to not fight. Nobody seems to know what I (Krishna) was/am saying. > Ramana knew and Nisargadatta knew and Papaji knew but they could never say it – point-blank -- in their books. For Advaita to survive in a dualistic society it cannot give us the most obvious facts about non-duality because these facts would blow society and its dualities and beliefs and needs, and cults, out of the universe. This ineffable message: THERE IS NO DOER. > If you put the formula – there is no doer – into the formula of maya, life, then maya is exactly like a movie that has already been made. THAT IS: NOTHING CAN MATTER, because the movie has already been made. It's like everything has already happened, so the mind and its body are just going through the motions. > And so, Krishna tells Arjuna that he has no choice but to do what has already been done. > Nothing can matter because nobody is doing anything, we are all imaginary doers who are just going through the motions. This is the meaning of maya. With this formula you can laugh at anything you think and do because there is no " you " who can be doing anything. > Further? If you want to commit suicide then " I, " Krishna, will say " Go right ahead " – if it is not in maya then it will never ever happen, and if it is in maya then there is nothing you can do that can prevent the suicide that has already happened. There is no other possible way to read " there is no doer. " And so the joke: there is never a doer that can commit suicide in the first place > Further? If you are driving along a busy freeway then let the steering wheel go and step on the accelerator and laugh yourself to death because if you are meant to have an accident then you will have one, and if not, then the car will have to drive by itself (as it did with Papaji) because there is nothing you can do to have the accident that is not written into the movie called maya. Can you now understand what I, Krishna was/am saying? If so then you are Papaji's 1 in 200 million. > All the worry and suffering and rebirths and …. everything is utterly meaningless because from the beginning to the end everything is just thoughts that have to disappear into where they came from the Samadhi of dreamless-sleep called Self. (The Samadhi that is an unfathomable ocean of such JOY that it makes the universe into an imaginary drop. ) > LIFE, MAYA, is the Supreme Comedy because NOTHING MATTERS because there is no Doer for whom it can matter. This is the one-and-only- message these Hindu's woke up to over 5000 years ago. Everything else is utter dualistic rhetoric and garbage. > Only if you can understand this no-doer can you understand why I could care less about what " I " write or think or do because there is no I, so I cannot be thinking or doing anything that I can/should care about. And for this, the proverbial 200million-minus-1 are ready to crucify me .. because I am just like Jesus Christ himself who needs yet another crucifixion. I obviously need a crucifixion because I can laugh at any other relative-fool who cannot believe that a saint is a sinner, that Jesus is/was Hitler. Because 2000 years ago, to the Jews Jesus was (a) Hitler; and after WW I, to the Germans Hitler was a (the) savior Jesus. > It cannot be any other way: the mind is what it thinks be it the saint Hitler or the devil Jesus. > All because only the dreamless-sleep called Samadhi is Real. > Dear Semmi, But, the argument of 'destiny', 'everything decided' can go to any extent ... You can say: ---- Krishna said what he was destined to say. ---- Ramana, Niz said what they were destined to say. ---- People who are destined to believe in " free will " , " personal / individual doer " believe in them. ---- People who are destined to " NOT believe " in " free will " , " personal / individual doer " wouldn't believe in them. Krishna may or may NOT say " Go Ahead " to person expressing will of suicide but Krishna would say and do ... " what he is destined to do then and there " . ---- You may or may not accept this ideas. You may or may NOT argue, debate with it based on what you are 'destined' to do ! With warm regards, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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