Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 " Gene Poole " <gene_poole Re: Language As An Art / P > Pedsie2@a... wrote: > No doubt, language as a yardstick of phenomena > falls short, and as a vessel for reality is as > efficient as a net is, in conveying water. If we know that to be the case (as I do) then that is a 'given' and is taken into account. The 'DECA' disorder means that one does not know this to be the case, and the 'conversation' devolves. > But, > there is another dimension to language, which > transcends semantics and semiotics: language as > art. To say 'transcends' these things may be an error. Rather, the art of language utilizes them to the fullest. > If you ask me exactly what I mean, > I'd have to confess I don't really know, but I > know it when I see it. If you press, I would say > it's the magic of arranging, of inspired blending, > which attains certain tone, tempo, and rhythm > that stimulates brain centers beyond that of > speech, and even emotions. IMO, there are two distinct ways that the art of language 'wins' its goal; One is when the words seem to be those that I myself am speaking or thinking; The other is when it is very obvious that I 'could never' (yet) say or think those words; that the words emanate from an 'intelligence' beyond mine, that they are distinctly the words of 'other'. > Artistic language could stimulate an intelligence, > which is not discursive, call it intuition, or > epiphany, if you will. Poetry, great religious > literature partakes of this. This sort of language > has its place, as music, and dance has its place > in revealing the ineffable to those who are ready. > > The danger arises when we take art literally. > When we indulge in entification and objectification > of the ineffable. Then, verbal loops become > inescapable traps, and spirituality a verbal pastime, > no more relevant that a crossword puzzle. > > Pete Pete, people are afraid of words. They are afraid to hear them. And they are so afraid to speak them, that listening to most speakers is like watching a very constipated person try to 'shit a brick'. This is because people are afraid of other people and the 'judgments' made by them. It is a case of anxiety so deep and chronic that it is assumed to be 'normal background tension'. 'The Original Fall of Man', as in the Genesis story, clearly shows that 'our problems' began upon the introduction of language. Satan's corruption of Eve was a result of the introduction of language. Use of language inevitably 'creates' schizophrenia in all users. This 'language-induced schizophrenia' screams at high volume, the story of loss of animal-innocence; and 'healing', which is possible, results when the language-user succeeds in integrating language into the native network of sensory (eg, truly survival- oriented) information processing. Language must be able to be deployed with a skill and facility similar to that of the master of the bullwhip; he can cut deeply or merely flick the flame from a candle, at will. Less than that portrays the agonized writhings of a tortured and panicked Being. Intensity is no substitute for accuracy. Language by nature is Lying. This is so because it is always a substitution. And this is why most find the study of language to be so difficult; it is the only area in which what is being described is language, itself, without substitution. People are addicted to the loose and sloppy almost-fit of language-as-substitute; try to get them to be precise, and angry and petulant reactions occur. For one who is healed of the breakage caused by use of language, stories can be told and heard in a very few words. Those still broken, cannot tell or hear stories with any facility; a consequence of this is 'gluttony' for information. It is like using a battering-ram on a door that will not open. The true story of Eden and 'the fall' is that our schizophrenia, caused by language, is a split wedged between 'man' and the All. Man learned to create a 'virtual world' in which 'God' logically cannot exist, except as a placeholder (like 'zero'). This 'dilemma' is fierce and will hold one by the throat, until it is dealt with. The occurrence (event) of Advaita is an attempt to lead people into awareness of the realities described by language as being 'virtual' and not literal. 'Transcendental Religious experience', or 'meeting God', is the return of animal innocence; healing is when we master language. To master language does not mean to have a huge vocabulary. It means that it is being used by a master, eg, a whole person, not one who is isolated from animal nature. ==Gene Poole== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > " Gene Poole " <gene_poole@q...> > Re: Language As An Art / P > > > Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > > No doubt, language as a yardstick of phenomena > > falls short, and as a vessel for reality is as > > efficient as a net is, in conveying water. > > If we know that to be the case (as I do) then > that is a 'given' and is taken into account. > > The 'DECA' disorder means that one does > not know this to be the case, and the > 'conversation' devolves. > > > But, > > there is another dimension to language, which > > transcends semantics and semiotics: language as > > art. > > To say 'transcends' these things may be > an error. Rather, the art of language > utilizes them to the fullest. It is a rare thing that can transcend itself. > > > If you ask me exactly what I mean, > > I'd have to confess I don't really know, but I > > know it when I see it. Thinking that you know anything........Is a great misunderstanding If you press, I would say > > it's the magic of arranging, of inspired blending, > > which attains certain tone, tempo, and rhythm > > that stimulates brain centers beyond that of > > speech, and even emotions. That is only self-pleasuring. > > IMO, there are two distinct ways that > the art of language 'wins' its goal; > > One is when the words seem to be those > that I myself am speaking or thinking; There's that disease if the " I' thing again. > > The other is when it is very obvious that I > 'could never' (yet) say or think those words; > that the words emanate from an 'intelligence' > beyond mine, that they are distinctly the words > of 'other'. > > > > Artistic language could stimulate an intelligence, > > which is not discursive, call it intuition, or > > epiphany, if you will. Poetry, great religious > > literature partakes of this. This sort of language > > has its place, as music, and dance has its place > > in revealing the ineffable to those who are ready. .......more self-pleasuring. > > > > The danger Danger to what? arises when we take art literally. > > When we indulge in entification and objectification > > of the ineffable. Then, verbal loops become > > inescapable traps, and spirituality a verbal pastime, > > no more relevant that a crossword puzzle. > > > > Pete > > Pete, people are afraid of words. Baloney! " People " are made of words. Fear is the conjoined twin of the illusion of separation which is the result of wording. They are afraid > to hear them. And they are so afraid to speak them, > that listening to most speakers is like watching > a very constipated person try to 'shit a brick'. > > This is because people are afraid of other people .....for good reason. > and the 'judgments' made by them. It is a case > of anxiety so deep and chronic that it is assumed > to be 'normal background tension'. Fear is the tension that keeps the illusion moving. > > 'The Original Fall of Man', as in the Genesis story, > clearly shows that 'our problems' began upon the > introduction of language. Satan's corruption of Eve > was a result of the introduction of language. Use of > language inevitably 'creates' schizophrenia in all > users. Language is its users....they are not different. > > This 'language-induced schizophrenia' screams > at high volume, the story of loss of animal-innocence; > and 'healing', which is possible, results when the > language-user succeeds in integrating language into > the native network of sensory (eg, truly survival- > oriented) information processing. There is no entity beyond language.....there is nothing to fix. > > Language must be able to be deployed with a > skill and facility similar to that of the master > of the bullwhip; he can cut deeply or merely > flick the flame from a candle, at will. Less than > that portrays the agonized writhings of a > tortured and panicked Being. Intensity is no > substitute for accuracy. More baloney. > > Language by nature is Lying. .....a speaker that says all speakers are lying............... This is so because > it is always a substitution. And this is why most > find the study of language to be so difficult; > it is the only area in which what is being > described is language, itself, without substitution. > > People are addicted to the loose and sloppy > almost-fit of language-as-substitute; try to > get them to be precise, and angry and petulant > reactions occur. Learning how to tighten up knots...will never help to undo them. > > For one who is healed of the breakage caused > by use of language, stories can be told and heard > in a very few words. Baloney. You hypothesize a super entity that lives just over the edge of " language " ...... I'm sorry to be the one to tell you.......It's not so. Those still broken, cannot > tell or hear stories with any facility; a consequence > of this is 'gluttony' for information. It is like using > a battering-ram on a door that will not open. I can see why it seems like that to you.....it must be very frustrating. > > The true story of Eden and 'the fall' is that our > schizophrenia, caused by language, is a split > wedged between 'man' and the All. Makes you feel kinda lost.......doesn't it? Man learned > to create a 'virtual world' in which 'God' logically > cannot exist, except as a placeholder (like 'zero'). No. " Man " is a character being played by all that is... " He " learns nothing. > > This 'dilemma' is fierce and will hold one by the > throat, until it is dealt with. Baloney. You prescribe medicine for a disease that does not exist.... How's it workin for you so far? The occurrence (event) > of Advaita is an attempt to lead people into awareness > of the realities described by language as being 'virtual' and > not literal. 'Transcendental Religious experience', > or 'meeting God', is the return of animal innocence; > healing is when we master language. Baloney. Fundimentalist bullshit. > > To master language does not mean to have > a huge vocabulary. It means that it is being > used by a master, eg, a whole person, not one > who is isolated from animal nature. Gene, I find it hard to believe that you buy into this. This has been your line for a long time........It should be getting a bit heavy by now...... Are you getting any closer to becoming a master of language? toombaru > > > ==Gene Poole== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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