Guest guest Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 In a message dated 6/30/05 8:21:56 AM, lbb10 writes: > It is not philosophy or words that tie down or chain. It is fixity in > beliefs, obsessions, of whatever sort, that tie down, that limit, that > attach, that dull, that blind, that makes things so that they " will > always be the same. " > > > From the Pali Canon > P: As corrected in the Pete Canon: It is not philosophy or words that tie down or chain. It is fixity in beliefs, obsessions, of whatever sort, that tie down, that limit, that attach, that dull, that blind, that makes things [ as conceptually represented] so that they " will always [seem] the same. " > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.15 > > Kaccayanagotta Sutta > To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) > > Translated from English by Bhikkhu Pete. ) > > > > > " By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its > object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one > sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right > discernment,[ the concept] 'non-existence' with reference to the world does > not occur > to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with > right discernment,[ the concept] of 'existence' with reference to the world > does not > occur to one. > P: The Buddha never denied, neither affirmed, existence, being, nor world. It seems funny you quoting sutras, your hero Nagarjuna and the Buddha himself are reputedly said were never preached. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 --- Pedsie2 wrote: **Things are what they are. Philosophy will never dull their edge. Hunger and rice, rocks and hurts, kisses and blows, pleasure and pain will always be the same [From the Pete Canon #1]. Your words, and their meanings are in vain. You could be free, free from meanings and words. You could stand naked in the mystery, divested of beliefs, silent, mute like a beast.It's not things that tie you down, your chains are words, and you pretend to understand, and sort, an analyze, and classify your words, yet never stop, no never stop talking because you love them, and like a verbal hog, you wallow in your words.[From the Pete Canon #2] Pete ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " Things are what they are. Philosophy will never dull their edge. Hunger and rice, rocks and hurts, kisses and blows, pleasure and pain will always be the same. " --Pete ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is not philosophy or words that tie down or chain. It is fixity in beliefs, obsessions, of whatever sort, that tie down, that limit, that attach, that dull, that blind, that makes things so that they " will always be the same " [phrase quoted from Pete Canon #1]. " P: As corrected in the newly Revised Pete Canon #1 (see brackets): It is not philosophy or words that tie down or chain. It is fixity in beliefs, obsessions, of whatever sort, that tie down, that limit, that attach, that dull, that blind, that makes things [as conceptually represented] so that they " will always [seem] the same. " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Samyutta Nikaya XII.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) Translated from English by Bhikkhu Pete. ) " By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment,[the concept] 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment,[ the concept] of 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ P: The Buddha never denied, neither affirmed, existence, being, nor world. It seems funny you quoting sutras, your hero Nagarjuna and the Buddha himself are reputedly said were never preached. Lewis: Yes. He and Nagarjuna placed living as in the middle between these two extremes. The paradox of teaching sutras and then saying nothing was taught is not a paradox when comrehending the middle way. Nisargadatta says more, by adding " becoming, " to being and nonbeing. He says in " I am That: " " ...the fundamental reality is beyond awareness, beyond the three states of becoming, being and not-being. " More has been said before on what has been left out of those expressions. Affirming or denying, believing or obsessing on the real existence of things or in the conceptual existence of things, usually dies hard or not at all. It can begin with recognition that such affirming, denying, believing or obsessing is done. Or it cannot. It matters only to the affirmer, denier, believer, obsessor. (This is not new to you in any way. You know it well in others). Since you assume or believe in things existing as real, conceptual or otherwise and have always argued or posited such, whether it be the reality of the brain and brain function, the universe talking through you, death, the ineffable unknown darkness or the " mystery of things " that exist, it may matter to you or not. You know. I do not know what it is to you in life. We do as we are and anything can go in it. It is a always in the end a matter of preference not argument. As for Nagarjuna being my hero or the Buddha having anything to do with what I am about is mistaken. Their words [and mine] are convenient tools to direct at your expressed assumptions, beliefs, arguments, and preachments here and elsewhere as as a balance of sorts and as an exploration and learning experience for me as I happily engage your expression. You are incorrigible in it as it goes and there is nothing wrong with that! I am incorrigible in what I am as it goes in the moment. What can be done!? Is there anything to be done but to go on? And so there is no effort to change you or make you see what those two spoke about. By engagement and challenge I [we?] learn what can arise and what cannot and in seeing the arising I [we?] can know. I challenge you as you are not adverse to it and I enjoy your challenges whatever they may be, in whatever form they take. As you know, I pull out all sorts of words, from all sorts of personages to engage others and since Zen, neuroscience and Nisargadatta are objects that you know and use, out pops words from Uncle Nagarjuna, the Buddha, Nisargadatta and references to neurophysiology and neuropathology. If I pull out Lacan, Frege, Voegelin, Ramana or the many others hanging about to engage you, there is no engagement. It is a matter of communication by constructing together some common stream or universe of discourse. So, if it seems funny that Buddha's words entered then laugh hard at it if it possible. There are stories that say " laughter is the best medicine. " It just may work! Never know till you test it out! Have a jolly on me, you aromatic old fart! Hahahahahahahahaha! Lewis ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From the Pali Canon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Samyutta Nikaya XII.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: " Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view? " " By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. " By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. " 'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name- & -form. From name- & -form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. " Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name- & -form. From the cessation of name- & -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. " Samyutta Nikaya XII.38 Cetana Sutta Intention Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. " Staying at Savatthi... [the Blessed One said,] " What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about:[1] This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress. " If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress. " But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress. " Samyutta Nikaya XII.20 Paccaya Sutta Requisite Conditions Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Dwelling at Savatthi... " Monks, I will teach you dependent co-arising & dependently co-arisen phenomena. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak. " " As you say, lord, " the monks replied. The Blessed One said: " Now what is dependent co-arising? From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands -- this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. " From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... " From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming... " From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance... " From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving... " From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling... " From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact... " From name- & -form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... " From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name- & -form... " From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness... " From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands -- this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. What's there in this way is a reality, not an unreality, not other than what it seems, conditioned by this/that. This is called dependent co-arising. " And what are dependently co-arisen phenomena? Aging & death are dependently co-arisen phenomena: inconstant, compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation. " Birth is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon... " Becoming is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon... " Clinging/sustenance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon... " Craving is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon... " Feeling is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon... " Contact is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon... " The six sense media are dependently co-arisen phenomena... " Name- & -form is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon... " Consciousness is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon... " Fabrications are dependently co-arisen phenomena... " Ignorance is a dependently co-arisen phenomenon: inconstant, compounded, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to passing away, subject to fading, subject to cessation. These are called dependently co-arisen phenomena. " When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they are actually present. " __ Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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