Professional Avoiders and the Advaita Trip/Wingate

[Guest guest]

TheEndOfTheRopeRanch , " Judi Rhodes "

<judirhodes@c...> wrote:

> >>

> > ***********

> > Which again proves my point of these teachers either not seeing

it,

> > or not having the heart to tell these people that what they need

is

> > psycho-therapy. Iow, go deal with your self-esteem problem, your

> > emotional problem of yourself, and get yourself clear of that,

then

> > come back. Cause like you said Dan, all it's doing is

> creating " pod "

> > people. Creepy! And this sickness, this " disease " seems to be

> > spreading like wildfire. Oh joy! :-(

> >

> > Judi

>

> **********

> And something else I was thinking about on the way to work this

> morning, is that telling someone to " inquire " before they're ready

> doesn't do any good, because it just becomes an intellectual trip.

> Inquiry is done AFTER you find yourself in a hole, at the end of

> your rope, NOT before. Iow, it just becomes " something to do " for

> entertainment purposes, nothing more.

>

> Inquiry is digging yourself out AFTER you find yourself in a hole.

>

> Judi

 

Yes, excellent point, Judi.

 

It's for one who finds one's entire life to be the hole

one is in.

 

It's not for someone wanting a new way to have self-esteem

and then continuing on with the same life but dressed

up with a spiritual understanding and with

a new way to make friends and influence people.

 

And it's not for someone looking to belong to something.

 

To use your metaphor of digging yourself out --

you dig yourself out, you dig yourself through -

that is, you don't come back to where you were before,

only improved.

 

And that's what a lot of the various trips going on today

in the name of a spiritual awakening are -- they

are a kind of awakening that is an improvement in

one's life, so now one has something to be into, to

tell people about and try to get others into it.

 

So, that's just another experience in the dream, a way

to continue the dream with a superficial bandaid to

patch up one's self-esteem. So, even the self-examination

required to understand one's self-esteem problem was

avoided by this maneuver. Let alone the kind of self-

examination that reveals the entirety of one's life

and one's process as being the hole one has

dug for oneself. One has to face that one's own digging

has made the hole, that is, one's own activity.

But how can that be faced when one is busy

convincing oneself that a great new

spiritual experience that someone else was talking

about has shown me to be the peace

I always wanted? That's too groovy to ever drop.

I want to get more and more into it, tell folks

about it, develop a persona that really fits

what someone would be like who had a great understanding

that " I am the peace I always wanted. "

What a great avoidance technique.

I don't see how someone into this trip will ever

self-examine. It's like a band-aid that will have to

be kept on forever and ever in order to work -- so how

will one ever look underneath the bandaid and see the pus?

 

-- Dan

 

 

**************

Yeah I don't think these guys will ever come out of it either,

hence, the danger of advaita. They've dug themselves such a

" nice " hole. Sad, and all due to a stupid little

self-esteem problem. Hell, it's the demonstration OF their

self-esteem problem, if only they would see it?

 

Judi

[Guest guest]

Hi Judi and Dan,

 

Thanks for your post and the previous one. They just meet the point.

 

When reading it I found myself represented again, thats how I too am

ticking, but it is nothing new. I am conscious since longer of this

child wanting to be mom's darling. This 'wanting to be others

darling " reflected as self-esteem indeed is the hole we all are stuck

in.

 

The larger part of the brain is just needed for social reasons and so

we are social beings. To become attractive and lovable is the main

drive of socialisation. And so it is legitime if one has found a gem

to share it with others and so to polish one's self-esteem, but

legitime or not it also is the source of never ending conflicts.

 

So I would say we haven't dug that hole ouselves, we rather are born

as hole diggers, it is the demand of the genes.

 

What I am wondering Judi and Dan, what are your motives to post your

message, not just here but also in other lists, what is the drive

behind your offerings ? Love, compassion, pity ? Or is it again a

social drive ?

 

What was the drive to leave your hole, did it happen out of the blue,

was it insight that the child (mom's darling) has to leave in order

to end conflict, or have you just been fed up with that hole as your

home ?

 

Werner

 

 

 

 

Nisargadatta , " Judi Rhodes " <judirhodes@c...>

wrote:

> TheEndOfTheRopeRanch , " Judi Rhodes "

> <judirhodes@c...> wrote:

> > >>

> > > ***********

> > > Which again proves my point of these teachers either not seeing

> it,

> > > or not having the heart to tell these people that what they

need

> is

> > > psycho-therapy. Iow, go deal with your self-esteem problem,

your

> > > emotional problem of yourself, and get yourself clear of that,

> then

> > > come back. Cause like you said Dan, all it's doing is

> > creating " pod "

> > > people. Creepy! And this sickness, this " disease " seems to be

> > > spreading like wildfire. Oh joy! :-(

> > >

> > > Judi

> >

> > **********

> > And something else I was thinking about on the way to work this

> > morning, is that telling someone to " inquire " before they're ready

> > doesn't do any good, because it just becomes an intellectual trip.

> > Inquiry is done AFTER you find yourself in a hole, at the end of

> > your rope, NOT before. Iow, it just becomes " something to do " for

> > entertainment purposes, nothing more.

> >

> > Inquiry is digging yourself out AFTER you find yourself in a hole.

> >

> > Judi

>

> Yes, excellent point, Judi.

>

> It's for one who finds one's entire life to be the hole

> one is in.

>

> It's not for someone wanting a new way to have self-esteem

> and then continuing on with the same life but dressed

> up with a spiritual understanding and with

> a new way to make friends and influence people.

>

> And it's not for someone looking to belong to something.

>

> To use your metaphor of digging yourself out --

> you dig yourself out, you dig yourself through -

> that is, you don't come back to where you were before,

> only improved.

>

> And that's what a lot of the various trips going on today

> in the name of a spiritual awakening are -- they

> are a kind of awakening that is an improvement in

> one's life, so now one has something to be into, to

> tell people about and try to get others into it.

>

> So, that's just another experience in the dream, a way

> to continue the dream with a superficial bandaid to

> patch up one's self-esteem. So, even the self-examination

> required to understand one's self-esteem problem was

> avoided by this maneuver. Let alone the kind of self-

> examination that reveals the entirety of one's life

> and one's process as being the hole one has

> dug for oneself. One has to face that one's own digging

> has made the hole, that is, one's own activity.

> But how can that be faced when one is busy

> convincing oneself that a great new

> spiritual experience that someone else was talking

> about has shown me to be the peace

> I always wanted? That's too groovy to ever drop.

> I want to get more and more into it, tell folks

> about it, develop a persona that really fits

> what someone would be like who had a great understanding

> that " I am the peace I always wanted. "

> What a great avoidance technique.

> I don't see how someone into this trip will ever

> self-examine. It's like a band-aid that will have to

> be kept on forever and ever in order to work -- so how

> will one ever look underneath the bandaid and see the pus?

>

> -- Dan

>

>

> **************

> Yeah I don't think these guys will ever come out of it either,

> hence, the danger of advaita. They've dug themselves such a

> " nice " hole. Sad, and all due to a stupid little

> self-esteem problem. Hell, it's the demonstration OF their

> self-esteem problem, if only they would see it?

>

> Judi

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote:

> Hi Judi and Dan,

>

>

> What was the drive to leave your hole, did it happen out of the blue,

> was it insight that the child (mom's darling) has to leave in order

> to end conflict, or have you just been fed up with that hole as your

> home ?

>

> Werner

>

>

*********

Well FIRST you have to acknowledge that you're in a hole - no place to

turn, no one to turn to, no guru, no god, no tomorrow, no " love " ,

no " peaceful now " to see you through, no " alternatives " , no telling

yourself stories, no bullshitting yourself whatsoeover.

 

So it's matter of responsibility, a turn back around to yourself,

taking a look at yourself, stuck with yourself. In your own grave so to

speak. A totally objective, a " brutal " look at yourself, understanding

who and what you are, that whole " mis-understanding " of identity must

be seen for what it is, an activity, a mis-understanding based in fear,

the demonstration of fear itself.

 

Judi

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote:

> What I am wondering Judi and Dan, what are your motives to post your

> message, not just here but also in other lists, what is the drive

> behind your offerings ? Love, compassion, pity ? Or is it again a

> social drive ?

>

>

**********

For me, it's a matter of responsibility, of compassion, of love for my

fellow men, for sanity, for the peace and happiness of the world at

large.

 

That's why I do it.

 

Because I care.

 

As Jesus I think put it, I used to suffer myself, now I suffer you.

 

Judi

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , " Judi Rhodes " <judirhodes@c...>

wrote:

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...>

wrote:

> > Hi Judi and Dan,

> >

> >

> > What was the drive to leave your hole, did it happen out of the

blue,

> > was it insight that the child (mom's darling) has to leave in

order

> > to end conflict, or have you just been fed up with that hole as

your

> > home ?

> >

> > Werner

> >

> >

> *********

> Well FIRST you have to acknowledge that you're in a hole - no place

to

> turn, no one to turn to, no guru, no god, no tomorrow, no " love " ,

> no " peaceful now " to see you through, no " alternatives " , no telling

> yourself stories, no bullshitting yourself whatsoeover.

>

> So it's matter of responsibility, a turn back around to yourself,

> taking a look at yourself, stuck with yourself. In your own grave

so to

> speak. A totally objective, a " brutal " look at yourself,

understanding

> who and what you are, that whole " mis-understanding " of identity

must

> be seen for what it is, an activity, a mis-understanding based in

fear,

> the demonstration of fear itself.

>

> Judi

 

 

**************

And let me emphasize, the only way out of that fear is to go

*through* it, no by-passing of it possible.

 

To be totally alone with yourself is the greatest gift you can give

to yourself. And no one else can give that to you. You have to give

it to yourself.

 

Judi

[Guest guest]

Yes Judi,

 

Thanks I understand what you mean and I have no problems with seeing

that (what you meant). All that is already going on.

 

Werner

 

 

 

Nisargadatta , " Judi Rhodes " <judirhodes@c...>

wrote:

> Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...>

wrote:

> > Hi Judi and Dan,

> >

> >

> > What was the drive to leave your hole, did it happen out of the

blue,

> > was it insight that the child (mom's darling) has to leave in

order

> > to end conflict, or have you just been fed up with that hole as

your

> > home ?

> >

> > Werner

> >

> >

> *********

> Well FIRST you have to acknowledge that you're in a hole - no place

to

> turn, no one to turn to, no guru, no god, no tomorrow, no " love " ,

> no " peaceful now " to see you through, no " alternatives " , no telling

> yourself stories, no bullshitting yourself whatsoeover.

>

> So it's matter of responsibility, a turn back around to yourself,

> taking a look at yourself, stuck with yourself. In your own grave

so to

> speak. A totally objective, a " brutal " look at yourself,

understanding

> who and what you are, that whole " mis-understanding " of identity

must

> be seen for what it is, an activity, a mis-understanding based in

fear,

> the demonstration of fear itself.

>

> Judi