Guest guest Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 ------------------------------ Q: Should there be a feeling of freedom or ease? Stephen: A feeling of freedom and ease will arise, and then a feeling of contraction and uneasiness will arise. Happy thoughts and feelings will arise, and then sad thoughts and feelings will arise. Pleasurable bodily sensations will arise, and then painful bodily sensations will arise. There is no problem with thoughts, feelings, or sensations that arise. Thoughts, feelings, and sensations are not the cause of suffering. Suffering begins when REJECTION of a thought, feeling, or sensation arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to avoid this experience now, and in the future. Suffering begins when ACCEPTANCE of a thought, feeling, or sensation arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to grasp onto this experience now, and in the future. The root cause of suffering is the belief or sense that at your core is a controlling entity, ego, a me that can exercise control over the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. And that in order to be happy and at peace, I must exercise this control. I must take action to ensure that I will always be happy and never be sad. This attempt to control our thoughts, feelings, and sensations leads us down many paths throughout our lifetime. When we learn of the possibility of enlightenment, this becomes the ultimate way to achieve and maintain control over our experience. Attaining enlightenment, we assume, will give us the ultimate control over our thoughts, feelings, and sensations. Enlightenment, as it turns out, is the realization that there is no controlling entity here, no ego, no me who can exercise control over thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. When this realization happens, we could say there is a surrendering to whatever arises. The recognition is that there is no one here to reject or accept what arises; there is only awareness, and awareness is what I am. So, yes, there is a constant, underlying sense of freedom and ease. This underlying sense of freedom and ease is untouched, even by feelings of contraction and uneasiness. But, you say, isn't that a contradiction? When you are at peace with war, you are always at peace - even in the midst of war! When the realization dawns that there is no controlling entity there in you, there is no ego, no me in control; there is no one there to fight anymore! There's no one there to reject or accept whatever arises. All there is is consciousness, and you are that. Therein lies the peace that surpasses all understanding. Stephen Wingate http://livinginpeace-thenaturalstate.com/correspondence.htm --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Stephen Wingate " <stephenwingate11> wrote: > ------------------------------ > > Q: Should there be a feeling of freedom or ease? > > Stephen: A feeling of freedom and ease will arise, and then a > feeling of contraction and uneasiness will arise. Happy thoughts and > feelings will arise, and then sad thoughts and feelings will arise. > Pleasurable bodily sensations will arise, and then painful bodily > sensations will arise. > > There is no problem with thoughts, feelings, or sensations that > arise. Thoughts, feelings, and sensations are not the cause of > suffering. > > Suffering begins when REJECTION of a thought, feeling, or sensation > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to avoid this > experience now, and in the future. > > Suffering begins when ACCEPTANCE of a thought, feeling, or sensation > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to grasp onto this > experience now, and in the future. > > The root cause of suffering is the belief or sense that at your core > is a controlling entity, ego, a me that can exercise control over > the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. And that in order > to be happy and at peace, I must exercise this control. I must take > action to ensure that I will always be happy and never be sad. > > This attempt to control our thoughts, feelings, and sensations leads > us down many paths throughout our lifetime. When we learn of the > possibility of enlightenment, this becomes the ultimate way to > achieve and maintain control over our experience. Attaining > enlightenment, we assume, will give us the ultimate control over our > thoughts, feelings, and sensations. > > Enlightenment, as it turns out, is the realization that there is no > controlling entity here, no ego, no me who can exercise control over > thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. > > When this realization happens, we could say there is a surrendering > to whatever arises. The recognition is that there is no one here to > reject or accept what arises; there is only awareness, and awareness > is what I am. > > So, yes, there is a constant, underlying sense of freedom and ease. > This underlying sense of freedom and ease is untouched, even by > feelings of contraction and uneasiness. But, you say, isn't that a > contradiction? When you are at peace with war, you are always at > peace - even in the midst of war! > > When the realization dawns that there is no controlling entity there > in you, there is no ego, no me in control; there is no one there to > fight anymore! There's no one there to reject or accept whatever > arises. All there is is consciousness, and you are that. Therein > lies the peace that surpasses all understanding. > > Stephen Wingate > http://livinginpeace-thenaturalstate.com/correspondence.htm > > --------- so one can try out the " enlightenment " ...in don't falling asleep ....or in being still at peace......in the middle of this wonderful story...... Regards Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Stephen Wingate " <stephenwingate11> wrote: > ------------------------------ > > Q: Should there be a feeling of freedom or ease? > > Stephen: A feeling of freedom and ease will arise, and then a > feeling of contraction and uneasiness will arise. Happy thoughts and > feelings will arise, and then sad thoughts and feelings will arise. > Pleasurable bodily sensations will arise, and then painful bodily > sensations will arise. > > There is no problem with thoughts, feelings, or sensations that > arise. Thoughts, feelings, and sensations are not the cause of > suffering. > > Suffering begins when REJECTION of a thought, feeling, or sensation > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to avoid this > experience now, and in the future. > > Suffering begins when ACCEPTANCE of a thought, feeling, or sensation > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to grasp onto this > experience now, and in the future. > > The root cause of suffering is the belief or sense that at your core > is a controlling entity, ego, a me that can exercise control over > the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. And that in order > to be happy and at peace, I must exercise this control. I must take > action to ensure that I will always be happy and never be sad. > > This attempt to control our thoughts, feelings, and sensations leads > us down many paths throughout our lifetime. When we learn of the > possibility of enlightenment, this becomes the ultimate way to > achieve and maintain control over our experience. Attaining > enlightenment, we assume, will give us the ultimate control over our > thoughts, feelings, and sensations. > > Enlightenment, as it turns out, is the realization that there is no > controlling entity here, no ego, no me who can exercise control over > thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. > > When this realization happens, we could say there is a surrendering > to whatever arises. The recognition is that there is no one here to > reject or accept what arises; there is only awareness, and awareness > is what I am. > > So, yes, there is a constant, underlying sense of freedom and ease. > This underlying sense of freedom and ease is untouched, even by > feelings of contraction and uneasiness. But, you say, isn't that a > contradiction? When you are at peace with war, you are always at > peace - even in the midst of war! > > When the realization dawns that there is no controlling entity there > in you, there is no ego, no me in control; there is no one there to > fight anymore! There's no one there to reject or accept whatever > arises. All there is is consciousness, and you are that. Therein > lies the peace that surpasses all understanding. > > Stephen Wingate > http://livinginpeace-thenaturalstate.com/correspondence.htm > > --------- My idea is that when body and mind work in balance there will not be contraction or unease anymore. Thus, any idea about contraction and unease being unavoidable sounds false to me. There may not be a separate me in control, but there is a Me in control. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Stephen Wingate " > <stephenwingate11> wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > > > Q: Should there be a feeling of freedom or ease? > > > > Stephen: A feeling of freedom and ease will arise, and then a > > feeling of contraction and uneasiness will arise. Happy thoughts and > > feelings will arise, and then sad thoughts and feelings will arise. > > Pleasurable bodily sensations will arise, and then painful bodily > > sensations will arise. > > > > There is no problem with thoughts, feelings, or sensations that > > arise. Thoughts, feelings, and sensations are not the cause of > > suffering. > > > > Suffering begins when REJECTION of a thought, feeling, or sensation > > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to avoid this > > experience now, and in the future. > > > > Suffering begins when ACCEPTANCE of a thought, feeling, or sensation > > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to grasp onto this > > experience now, and in the future. > > > > The root cause of suffering is the belief or sense that at your core > > is a controlling entity, ego, a me that can exercise control over > > the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. And that in order > > to be happy and at peace, I must exercise this control. I must take > > action to ensure that I will always be happy and never be sad. > > > > This attempt to control our thoughts, feelings, and sensations leads > > us down many paths throughout our lifetime. When we learn of the > > possibility of enlightenment, this becomes the ultimate way to > > achieve and maintain control over our experience. Attaining > > enlightenment, we assume, will give us the ultimate control over our > > thoughts, feelings, and sensations. > > > > Enlightenment, as it turns out, is the realization that there is no > > controlling entity here, no ego, no me who can exercise control over > > thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. > > > > When this realization happens, we could say there is a surrendering > > to whatever arises. The recognition is that there is no one here to > > reject or accept what arises; there is only awareness, and awareness > > is what I am. > > > > So, yes, there is a constant, underlying sense of freedom and ease. > > This underlying sense of freedom and ease is untouched, even by > > feelings of contraction and uneasiness. But, you say, isn't that a > > contradiction? When you are at peace with war, you are always at > > peace - even in the midst of war! > > > > When the realization dawns that there is no controlling entity there > > in you, there is no ego, no me in control; there is no one there to > > fight anymore! There's no one there to reject or accept whatever > > arises. All there is is consciousness, and you are that. Therein > > lies the peace that surpasses all understanding. > > > > Stephen Wingate > > http://livinginpeace-thenaturalstate.com/correspondence.htm > > > > --------- > > > My idea is that when body and mind work in balance there will not be > contraction or unease anymore. Thus, any idea about contraction and > unease being unavoidable sounds false to me. There may not be a > separate me in control, but there is a Me in control. > > al. ....maybe there is not only " body and mind " .....but also " soul " ...... (or Self) in your " ideas " ...this " open mind " of you seem to be missing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stephen Wingate " > > <stephenwingate11> wrote: > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Q: Should there be a feeling of freedom or ease? > > > > > > Stephen: A feeling of freedom and ease will arise, and then a > > > feeling of contraction and uneasiness will arise. Happy thoughts > and > > > feelings will arise, and then sad thoughts and feelings will > arise. > > > Pleasurable bodily sensations will arise, and then painful bodily > > > sensations will arise. > > > > > > There is no problem with thoughts, feelings, or sensations that > > > arise. Thoughts, feelings, and sensations are not the cause of > > > suffering. > > > > > > Suffering begins when REJECTION of a thought, feeling, or > sensation > > > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to avoid this > > > experience now, and in the future. > > > > > > Suffering begins when ACCEPTANCE of a thought, feeling, or > sensation > > > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to grasp onto > this > > > experience now, and in the future. > > > > > > The root cause of suffering is the belief or sense that at your > core > > > is a controlling entity, ego, a me that can exercise control over > > > the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. And that in > order > > > to be happy and at peace, I must exercise this control. I must > take > > > action to ensure that I will always be happy and never be sad. > > > > > > This attempt to control our thoughts, feelings, and sensations > leads > > > us down many paths throughout our lifetime. When we learn of the > > > possibility of enlightenment, this becomes the ultimate way to > > > achieve and maintain control over our experience. Attaining > > > enlightenment, we assume, will give us the ultimate control over > our > > > thoughts, feelings, and sensations. > > > > > > Enlightenment, as it turns out, is the realization that there is > no > > > controlling entity here, no ego, no me who can exercise control > over > > > thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. > > > > > > When this realization happens, we could say there is a > surrendering > > > to whatever arises. The recognition is that there is no one here > to > > > reject or accept what arises; there is only awareness, and > awareness > > > is what I am. > > > > > > So, yes, there is a constant, underlying sense of freedom and > ease. > > > This underlying sense of freedom and ease is untouched, even by > > > feelings of contraction and uneasiness. But, you say, isn't that > a > > > contradiction? When you are at peace with war, you are always at > > > peace - even in the midst of war! > > > > > > When the realization dawns that there is no controlling entity > there > > > in you, there is no ego, no me in control; there is no one there > to > > > fight anymore! There's no one there to reject or accept whatever > > > arises. All there is is consciousness, and you are that. Therein > > > lies the peace that surpasses all understanding. > > > > > > Stephen Wingate > > > http://livinginpeace-thenaturalstate.com/correspondence.htm > > > > > > --------- > > > > > > My idea is that when body and mind work in balance there will not be > > contraction or unease anymore. Thus, any idea about contraction and > > unease being unavoidable sounds false to me. There may not be a > > separate me in control, but there is a Me in control. > > > > al. > > ...maybe there is not only " body and mind " .....but also " soul " ...... > (or Self) > > in your " ideas " ...this " open mind " of you seem to be missing.... My idea is that this planet is not born yet. That's why ALL humans live in contraction. It's like Plato's cave, or like a chicken inside its eggshell. As the chicken mature, the eggshell provides protection and inside the egg there is all the food needed. But there comes a time when the food begins to run out. The chicken is then fully matured and the eggshell is no longer a protection but a hideous dark prison. Our world today is like that chicken inside its eggshell. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Stephen Wingate " > > > <stephenwingate11> wrote: > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Q: Should there be a feeling of freedom or ease? > > > > > > > > Stephen: A feeling of freedom and ease will arise, and then a > > > > feeling of contraction and uneasiness will arise. Happy thoughts > > and > > > > feelings will arise, and then sad thoughts and feelings will > > arise. > > > > Pleasurable bodily sensations will arise, and then painful bodily > > > > sensations will arise. > > > > > > > > There is no problem with thoughts, feelings, or sensations that > > > > arise. Thoughts, feelings, and sensations are not the cause of > > > > suffering. > > > > > > > > Suffering begins when REJECTION of a thought, feeling, or > > sensation > > > > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to avoid this > > > > experience now, and in the future. > > > > > > > > Suffering begins when ACCEPTANCE of a thought, feeling, or > > sensation > > > > arises, and the sense that " I " must take action to grasp onto > > this > > > > experience now, and in the future. > > > > > > > > The root cause of suffering is the belief or sense that at your > > core > > > > is a controlling entity, ego, a me that can exercise control over > > > > the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. And that in > > order > > > > to be happy and at peace, I must exercise this control. I must > > take > > > > action to ensure that I will always be happy and never be sad. > > > > > > > > This attempt to control our thoughts, feelings, and sensations > > leads > > > > us down many paths throughout our lifetime. When we learn of the > > > > possibility of enlightenment, this becomes the ultimate way to > > > > achieve and maintain control over our experience. Attaining > > > > enlightenment, we assume, will give us the ultimate control over > > our > > > > thoughts, feelings, and sensations. > > > > > > > > Enlightenment, as it turns out, is the realization that there is > > no > > > > controlling entity here, no ego, no me who can exercise control > > over > > > > thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arise. > > > > > > > > When this realization happens, we could say there is a > > surrendering > > > > to whatever arises. The recognition is that there is no one here > > to > > > > reject or accept what arises; there is only awareness, and > > awareness > > > > is what I am. > > > > > > > > So, yes, there is a constant, underlying sense of freedom and > > ease. > > > > This underlying sense of freedom and ease is untouched, even by > > > > feelings of contraction and uneasiness. But, you say, isn't that > > a > > > > contradiction? When you are at peace with war, you are always at > > > > peace - even in the midst of war! > > > > > > > > When the realization dawns that there is no controlling entity > > there > > > > in you, there is no ego, no me in control; there is no one there > > to > > > > fight anymore! There's no one there to reject or accept whatever > > > > arises. All there is is consciousness, and you are that. Therein > > > > lies the peace that surpasses all understanding. > > > > > > > > Stephen Wingate > > > > http://livinginpeace-thenaturalstate.com/correspondence.htm > > > > > > > > --------- > > > > > > > > > My idea is that when body and mind work in balance there will not be > > > contraction or unease anymore. Thus, any idea about contraction and > > > unease being unavoidable sounds false to me. There may not be a > > > separate me in control, but there is a Me in control. > > > > > > al. > > > > ...maybe there is not only " body and mind " .....but also " soul " ...... > > (or Self) > > > > in your " ideas " ...this " open mind " of you seem to be missing.... > > > My idea is that this planet is not born yet. That's why ALL humans > live in contraction. It's like Plato's cave, or like a chicken inside > its eggshell. As the chicken mature, the eggshell provides protection > and inside the egg there is all the food needed. But there comes a > time when the food begins to run out. The chicken is then fully > matured and the eggshell is no longer a protection but a hideous dark > prison. Our world today is like that chicken inside its eggshell. > > al. hi al., you have fantastic " ideas " ..... but ok....if you miss the soul (your real Self).....i understand that maybe this is the reason....of your fantasies... and your " will " to get out of this " egg " ... this your " world " which " is like a chicken inside its eggshell " ....is your own perception of your (own) world....... maybe it's time to get out of this dream perception...... the form of an egg is indead interesting...... read in the past about the some " egg form " related theories.... maybe there is somebody who could write about....thank you you have a smal paper in your hand (mind)......on which the concentration of your words (thoughts) is of high density..... imagine that this paper will change into a form....endless bigger.... now...what would be the density of this your appearing " words and thoughts " ....? there is no more " space " on your paper (ego-mind)......time for another dimension..... of soul Regards and love Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: .... > > > > > > My idea is that this planet is not born yet. That's why ALL humans > > live in contraction. It's like Plato's cave, or like a chicken > inside > > its eggshell. As the chicken mature, the eggshell provides > protection > > and inside the egg there is all the food needed. But there comes a > > time when the food begins to run out. The chicken is then fully > > matured and the eggshell is no longer a protection but a hideous > dark > > prison. Our world today is like that chicken inside its eggshell. > > > > al. > > hi al., > > you have fantastic " ideas " ..... > but ok....if you miss the soul (your real Self).....i understand that > maybe this is the reason....of your fantasies... > and your " will " to get out of this " egg " ... > > this your " world " which " is like a chicken inside its eggshell " ....is > your own perception of your (own) world....... > maybe it's time to get out of this dream perception...... > > > the form of an egg is indead interesting...... > read in the past about the some " egg form " related theories.... > maybe there is somebody who could write about....thank you > > > you have a smal paper in your hand (mind)......on which the > concentration of your words (thoughts) is of high density..... > imagine that this paper will change into a form....endless bigger.... > > now...what would be the density of this your appearing " words and > thoughts " ....? > > there is no more " space " on your paper (ego-mind)......time for > another dimension..... > > of soul > > Regards and love > > Marc Hehe. Yes, the idea about this planet not being born yet is speculative to the extreme. But if we look how evolution develops as holons (wholes that are part of other wholes) then there is a slight possibility that I may be correct (but I wouldn't bet my money on this idea). Holons are for example atoms, molecules, cells and mutli-celled organisms. Molecules are holons (wholes) that are made of atoms which are holons on a lower level. The highest (and therefore most complex) holon on this planet today is the human being. Societies can also be seen as holons, but for me they are not complete holons, but rather inter-holon structures. The next true level of holon is..................a planetary organism! It would be silly if in a human being the left arm would be in war with its right arm. But if we look at the planet as a whole, then we see that parts of humanity ARE in war with other parts, i.e. the planet is not a complete holon yet, only an embryo for a holon. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > ... > > > > > > > > > My idea is that this planet is not born yet. That's why ALL humans > > > live in contraction. It's like Plato's cave, or like a chicken > > inside > > > its eggshell. As the chicken mature, the eggshell provides > > protection > > > and inside the egg there is all the food needed. But there comes a > > > time when the food begins to run out. The chicken is then fully > > > matured and the eggshell is no longer a protection but a hideous > > dark > > > prison. Our world today is like that chicken inside its eggshell. > > > > > > al. > > > > hi al., > > > > you have fantastic " ideas " ..... > > but ok....if you miss the soul (your real Self).....i understand that > > maybe this is the reason....of your fantasies... > > and your " will " to get out of this " egg " ... > > > > this your " world " which " is like a chicken inside its eggshell " ....is > > your own perception of your (own) world....... > > maybe it's time to get out of this dream perception...... > > > > > > the form of an egg is indead interesting...... > > read in the past about the some " egg form " related theories.... > > maybe there is somebody who could write about....thank you > > > > > > you have a smal paper in your hand (mind)......on which the > > concentration of your words (thoughts) is of high density..... > > imagine that this paper will change into a form....endless bigger.... > > > > now...what would be the density of this your appearing " words and > > thoughts " ....? > > > > there is no more " space " on your paper (ego-mind)......time for > > another dimension..... > > > > of soul > > > > Regards and love > > > > Marc > > > Hehe. Yes, the idea about this planet not being born yet is > speculative to the extreme. But if we look how evolution develops as > holons (wholes that are part of other wholes) then there is a slight > possibility that I may be correct (but I wouldn't bet my money on this > idea). Holons are for example atoms, molecules, cells and mutli- celled > organisms. Molecules are holons (wholes) that are made of atoms which > are holons on a lower level. The highest (and therefore most complex) > holon on this planet today is the human being. Societies can also be > seen as holons, but for me they are not complete holons, but rather > inter-holon structures. The next true level of holon > is..................a planetary organism! It would be silly if in a > human being the left arm would be in war with its right arm. But if we > look at the planet as a whole, then we see that parts of humanity ARE > in war with other parts, i.e. the planet is not a complete holon yet, > only an embryo for a holon. > > al. Hi al., ....are you a scientific person...?.... only asking.....trying to find out in how far i'm just somebody who help you to develop (sell) wonderful dreams.... bliss is never " sold out " ..... but if you talk about humanity.....there is maybe no balance, indead..... many people are " sold out " .... it's a positiv attitude trying to " see " the whole...of the planet.... or your " holon view " and so...to create some " unity " to what happen...in your perception of the planet and world (it's about your own unity of body-mind-soul....) maybe some people have different " tasks " ....in order to kill.....during life time...this their ego-minds.....and get out of the " egg " ....of a limited being maybe the " wholeness of perception " of the planet.....is also a kind of " holon " .......?.....only an " idea " ... ok, coming back to Karma...and the attachments the minds are born with.....and have to detach from if it is related to your Karma....to " balance " humanity with nice plans and " ideas " ..........you should do so what is the Karma of whatever " holon " ?..... to get out of " limitations " ..... (no garantie for any concepts and words) ciao for now Regards Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > My idea is that this planet is not born yet. That's why ALL > humans > > > > live in contraction. It's like Plato's cave, or like a chicken > > > inside > > > > its eggshell. As the chicken mature, the eggshell provides > > > protection > > > > and inside the egg there is all the food needed. But there > comes a > > > > time when the food begins to run out. The chicken is then fully > > > > matured and the eggshell is no longer a protection but a > hideous > > > dark > > > > prison. Our world today is like that chicken inside its > eggshell. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > hi al., > > > > > > you have fantastic " ideas " ..... > > > but ok....if you miss the soul (your real Self).....i understand > that > > > maybe this is the reason....of your fantasies... > > > and your " will " to get out of this " egg " ... > > > > > > this your " world " which " is like a chicken inside its > eggshell " ....is > > > your own perception of your (own) world....... > > > maybe it's time to get out of this dream perception...... > > > > > > > > > the form of an egg is indead interesting...... > > > read in the past about the some " egg form " related theories.... > > > maybe there is somebody who could write about....thank you > > > > > > > > > you have a smal paper in your hand (mind)......on which the > > > concentration of your words (thoughts) is of high density..... > > > imagine that this paper will change into a form....endless > bigger.... > > > > > > now...what would be the density of this your appearing " words and > > > thoughts " ....? > > > > > > there is no more " space " on your paper (ego-mind)......time for > > > another dimension..... > > > > > > of soul > > > > > > Regards and love > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > Hehe. Yes, the idea about this planet not being born yet is > > speculative to the extreme. But if we look how evolution develops as > > holons (wholes that are part of other wholes) then there is a slight > > possibility that I may be correct (but I wouldn't bet my money on > this > > idea). Holons are for example atoms, molecules, cells and mutli- > celled > > organisms. Molecules are holons (wholes) that are made of atoms > which > > are holons on a lower level. The highest (and therefore most > complex) > > holon on this planet today is the human being. Societies can also be > > seen as holons, but for me they are not complete holons, but rather > > inter-holon structures. The next true level of holon > > is..................a planetary organism! It would be silly if in a > > human being the left arm would be in war with its right arm. But if > we > > look at the planet as a whole, then we see that parts of humanity > ARE > > in war with other parts, i.e. the planet is not a complete holon > yet, > > only an embryo for a holon. > > > > al. > > Hi al., > > ...are you a scientific person...?.... > only asking.....trying to find out in how far i'm just somebody who > help you to develop (sell) wonderful dreams.... > > bliss is never " sold out " ..... > > but if you talk about humanity.....there is maybe no balance, > indead..... > many people are " sold out " .... > > it's a positiv attitude trying to " see " the whole...of the planet.... > or your " holon view " > and so...to create some " unity " to what happen...in your perception > of the planet and world > (it's about your own unity of body-mind-soul....) > > maybe some people have different " tasks " ....in order to > kill.....during life time...this their ego-minds.....and get out of > the " egg " ....of a limited being > > maybe the " wholeness of perception " of the planet.....is also a kind > of " holon " .......?.....only an " idea " ... > > ok, coming back to Karma...and the attachments the minds are born > with.....and have to detach from > > if it is related to your Karma....to " balance " humanity with nice > plans and " ideas " ..........you should do so > > what is the Karma of whatever " holon " ?..... > to get out of " limitations " ..... > > > (no garantie for any concepts and words) > > > > ciao for now > > Regards > > Marc I work as a computer consultant and have some scientific background in that area. Karma is the effect of incompleteness of a holon in relation to the next higher level of holon. When the planetary organism is born, then the lower holons (humans) will no longer have karma because they will then work in harmony with the higher level of holon (Gaia). The next level of holon after planetary organism would be galactic organism. But that would be a holon so advanced that we can probably only speculate about it. We must be careful about using our level of thinking and try to understand what a planetary organism is. It would be like a single cell trying to understand what a human being is. When we use our level of thinking then it is easy that our idea of a planetary consciousness is that it would be some mechanical totalitarian flatland grid of telepathically connected humans; a planet where humans would be mere " cells " working for the greater whole (the planet). My idea is that humans in a planetary organism would be Gaia itself, with a level of intelligence that is way beyond any human today. There may be very advanced forms of telepathic communication going on between humans in a planetary organism, but more or less on a subconscious level. No person would be afraid of another person. That would be like the left arm in a human being being afraid of the right arm in the same body! al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My idea is that this planet is not born yet. That's why ALL > > humans > > > > > live in contraction. It's like Plato's cave, or like a chicken > > > > inside > > > > > its eggshell. As the chicken mature, the eggshell provides > > > > protection > > > > > and inside the egg there is all the food needed. But there > > comes a > > > > > time when the food begins to run out. The chicken is then fully > > > > > matured and the eggshell is no longer a protection but a > > hideous > > > > dark > > > > > prison. Our world today is like that chicken inside its > > eggshell. > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > hi al., > > > > > > > > you have fantastic " ideas " ..... > > > > but ok....if you miss the soul (your real Self).....i understand > > that > > > > maybe this is the reason....of your fantasies... > > > > and your " will " to get out of this " egg " ... > > > > > > > > this your " world " which " is like a chicken inside its > > eggshell " ....is > > > > your own perception of your (own) world....... > > > > maybe it's time to get out of this dream perception...... > > > > > > > > > > > > the form of an egg is indead interesting...... > > > > read in the past about the some " egg form " related theories.... > > > > maybe there is somebody who could write about....thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > you have a smal paper in your hand (mind)......on which the > > > > concentration of your words (thoughts) is of high density..... > > > > imagine that this paper will change into a form....endless > > bigger.... > > > > > > > > now...what would be the density of this your appearing " words and > > > > thoughts " ....? > > > > > > > > there is no more " space " on your paper (ego-mind)......time for > > > > another dimension..... > > > > > > > > of soul > > > > > > > > Regards and love > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > Hehe. Yes, the idea about this planet not being born yet is > > > speculative to the extreme. But if we look how evolution develops as > > > holons (wholes that are part of other wholes) then there is a slight > > > possibility that I may be correct (but I wouldn't bet my money on > > this > > > idea). Holons are for example atoms, molecules, cells and mutli- > > celled > > > organisms. Molecules are holons (wholes) that are made of atoms > > which > > > are holons on a lower level. The highest (and therefore most > > complex) > > > holon on this planet today is the human being. Societies can also be > > > seen as holons, but for me they are not complete holons, but rather > > > inter-holon structures. The next true level of holon > > > is..................a planetary organism! It would be silly if in a > > > human being the left arm would be in war with its right arm. But if > > we > > > look at the planet as a whole, then we see that parts of humanity > > ARE > > > in war with other parts, i.e. the planet is not a complete holon > > yet, > > > only an embryo for a holon. > > > > > > al. > > > > Hi al., > > > > ...are you a scientific person...?.... > > only asking.....trying to find out in how far i'm just somebody who > > help you to develop (sell) wonderful dreams.... > > > > bliss is never " sold out " ..... > > > > but if you talk about humanity.....there is maybe no balance, > > indead..... > > many people are " sold out " .... > > > > it's a positiv attitude trying to " see " the whole...of the planet.... > > or your " holon view " > > and so...to create some " unity " to what happen...in your perception > > of the planet and world > > (it's about your own unity of body-mind-soul....) > > > > maybe some people have different " tasks " ....in order to > > kill.....during life time...this their ego-minds.....and get out of > > the " egg " ....of a limited being > > > > maybe the " wholeness of perception " of the planet.....is also a kind > > of " holon " .......?.....only an " idea " ... > > > > ok, coming back to Karma...and the attachments the minds are born > > with.....and have to detach from > > > > if it is related to your Karma....to " balance " humanity with nice > > plans and " ideas " ..........you should do so > > > > what is the Karma of whatever " holon " ?..... > > to get out of " limitations " ..... > > > > > > (no garantie for any concepts and words) > > > > > > > > ciao for now > > > > Regards > > > > Marc > > I work as a computer consultant and have some scientific background in > that area. > > Karma is the effect of incompleteness of a holon in relation to the > next higher level of holon. When the planetary organism is born, then > the lower holons (humans) will no longer have karma because they will > then work in harmony with the higher level of holon (Gaia). > > The next level of holon after planetary organism would be galactic > organism. But that would be a holon so advanced that we can probably > only speculate about it. We must be careful about using our level of > thinking and try to understand what a planetary organism is. It would > be like a single cell trying to understand what a human being is. When > we use our level of thinking then it is easy that our idea of a > planetary consciousness is that it would be some mechanical > totalitarian flatland grid of telepathically connected humans; a > planet where humans would be mere " cells " working for the greater > whole (the planet). My idea is that humans in a planetary organism > would be Gaia itself, with a level of intelligence that is way beyond > any human today. There may be very advanced forms of telepathic > communication going on between humans in a planetary organism, but > more or less on a subconscious level. No person would be afraid of > another person. That would be like the left arm in a human being being > afraid of the right arm in the same body! > > al. ....this discussion become very " scientific " .... you describe different kind of " holons " ....different levels of " holons " ..... what does make a " holon " , whatever kind of, what it Is?....if not the relation to all other " holons " at same time...... this kind of " seperations " of " holons " ....in your description .....let it look like many different (seperated) parts ....of a whole.... it describe the tendency for a " holon " , whatever kind of, to grow.......in order to become, one day.....The holon, of all " others " .... (there again, is your personal tendency to " control " ...ok, joking) is there only a tendency for a " holon " to grow.....?....you can't imagine a " holon " giving up the " wholeness " of it?....(black hole kind of.... your " idea " of a planetery organism in which humans would be Gaia itself ...sound a very nice (dream) maybe those places....this " systems " already exists.....in other parts of the " whole " ..... in other consciousness.... means in other " unities " of.....body-mind-soul..... Regards Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My idea is that this planet is not born yet. That's why ALL > > > humans > > > > > > live in contraction. It's like Plato's cave, or like a > chicken > > > > > inside > > > > > > its eggshell. As the chicken mature, the eggshell provides > > > > > protection > > > > > > and inside the egg there is all the food needed. But there > > > comes a > > > > > > time when the food begins to run out. The chicken is then > fully > > > > > > matured and the eggshell is no longer a protection but a > > > hideous > > > > > dark > > > > > > prison. Our world today is like that chicken inside its > > > eggshell. > > > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > hi al., > > > > > > > > > > you have fantastic " ideas " ..... > > > > > but ok....if you miss the soul (your real Self).....i > understand > > > that > > > > > maybe this is the reason....of your fantasies... > > > > > and your " will " to get out of this " egg " ... > > > > > > > > > > this your " world " which " is like a chicken inside its > > > eggshell " ....is > > > > > your own perception of your (own) world....... > > > > > maybe it's time to get out of this dream perception...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the form of an egg is indead interesting...... > > > > > read in the past about the some " egg form " related > theories.... > > > > > maybe there is somebody who could write about....thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you have a smal paper in your hand (mind)......on which the > > > > > concentration of your words (thoughts) is of high density..... > > > > > imagine that this paper will change into a form....endless > > > bigger.... > > > > > > > > > > now...what would be the density of this your appearing " words > and > > > > > thoughts " ....? > > > > > > > > > > there is no more " space " on your paper (ego-mind)......time > for > > > > > another dimension..... > > > > > > > > > > of soul > > > > > > > > > > Regards and love > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > Hehe. Yes, the idea about this planet not being born yet is > > > > speculative to the extreme. But if we look how evolution > develops as > > > > holons (wholes that are part of other wholes) then there is a > slight > > > > possibility that I may be correct (but I wouldn't bet my money > on > > > this > > > > idea). Holons are for example atoms, molecules, cells and mutli- > > > celled > > > > organisms. Molecules are holons (wholes) that are made of atoms > > > which > > > > are holons on a lower level. The highest (and therefore most > > > complex) > > > > holon on this planet today is the human being. Societies can > also be > > > > seen as holons, but for me they are not complete holons, but > rather > > > > inter-holon structures. The next true level of holon > > > > is..................a planetary organism! It would be silly if > in a > > > > human being the left arm would be in war with its right arm. > But if > > > we > > > > look at the planet as a whole, then we see that parts of > humanity > > > ARE > > > > in war with other parts, i.e. the planet is not a complete > holon > > > yet, > > > > only an embryo for a holon. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > Hi al., > > > > > > ...are you a scientific person...?.... > > > only asking.....trying to find out in how far i'm just somebody > who > > > help you to develop (sell) wonderful dreams.... > > > > > > bliss is never " sold out " ..... > > > > > > but if you talk about humanity.....there is maybe no balance, > > > indead..... > > > many people are " sold out " .... > > > > > > it's a positiv attitude trying to " see " the whole...of the > planet.... > > > or your " holon view " > > > and so...to create some " unity " to what happen...in your > perception > > > of the planet and world > > > (it's about your own unity of body-mind-soul....) > > > > > > maybe some people have different " tasks " ....in order to > > > kill.....during life time...this their ego-minds.....and get out > of > > > the " egg " ....of a limited being > > > > > > maybe the " wholeness of perception " of the planet.....is also a > kind > > > of " holon " .......?.....only an " idea " ... > > > > > > ok, coming back to Karma...and the attachments the minds are born > > > with.....and have to detach from > > > > > > if it is related to your Karma....to " balance " humanity with nice > > > plans and " ideas " ..........you should do so > > > > > > what is the Karma of whatever " holon " ?..... > > > to get out of " limitations " ..... > > > > > > > > > (no garantie for any concepts and words) > > > > > > > > > > > > ciao for now > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Marc > > > > I work as a computer consultant and have some scientific background > in > > that area. > > > > Karma is the effect of incompleteness of a holon in relation to the > > next higher level of holon. When the planetary organism is born, > then > > the lower holons (humans) will no longer have karma because they > will > > then work in harmony with the higher level of holon (Gaia). > > > > The next level of holon after planetary organism would be galactic > > organism. But that would be a holon so advanced that we can probably > > only speculate about it. We must be careful about using our level of > > thinking and try to understand what a planetary organism is. It > would > > be like a single cell trying to understand what a human being is. > When > > we use our level of thinking then it is easy that our idea of a > > planetary consciousness is that it would be some mechanical > > totalitarian flatland grid of telepathically connected humans; a > > planet where humans would be mere " cells " working for the greater > > whole (the planet). My idea is that humans in a planetary organism > > would be Gaia itself, with a level of intelligence that is way > beyond > > any human today. There may be very advanced forms of telepathic > > communication going on between humans in a planetary organism, but > > more or less on a subconscious level. No person would be afraid of > > another person. That would be like the left arm in a human being > being > > afraid of the right arm in the same body! > > > > al. > > ...this discussion become very " scientific " .... > > you describe different kind of " holons " ....different levels > of " holons " ..... > what does make a " holon " , whatever kind of, what it Is?....if not the > relation to all other " holons " at same time...... > > this kind of " seperations " of " holons " ....in your > description .....let it look like many different (seperated) > parts ....of a whole.... > it describe the tendency for a " holon " , whatever kind of, to > grow.......in order to become, one day.....The holon, of > all " others " .... > > (there again, is your personal tendency to " control " ...ok, joking) > > is there only a tendency for a " holon " to grow.....?....you can't > imagine a " holon " giving up the " wholeness " of it?....(black hole > kind of.... > > your " idea " of a planetery organism in which humans would be Gaia > itself ...sound a very nice (dream) > > maybe those places....this " systems " already exists.....in other > parts of the " whole " ..... > > in other consciousness.... > > means in other " unities " of.....body-mind-soul..... > > Regards > > Marc The basic truth, which I think science today has missed, is that everything is one wholeness. We can call this common ground Noumenon to borrow from the philosophy of Kant. The idea that there are separate (othogonal) dimensions in existence is a myth. Science today talk about reality having 11 dimensions. On a relative level that may be true, but fundamentally there can only be one " dimension " . Within Noumenon exist seemingly separate objects, like dimensions, particles, atoms e t c. We can call all forms of seemingly separate objects in Noumenon for Phenomena. Pheomena, which means " stuff " , things that appear to be separate, evolves. Evolution has an arrow that goes from subatomic particles at the beginning of the " Big Bang " and evolves into atoms, then molecules, then cells, then into multi-celled organisms, then into planetary organisms, followed by galactic organisms, universal organisms, inter-universal organisms... What you call other parts of the whole may indeed contain holons on every conceivable level and of all types. But in our universe evolution has only reached the treshold for holon level: planetary organism. Holons don't grow, the emerge. When the lower level of holons have reach sufficient maturity they form a new level of being, a new level of holon, such as atoms forming molecules and molecules forming cells. What makes a holon a holon is its relation to the holons whithin it; a holon transcends and embraces the holons on the lower level, such as a molecule transcends and embraces atoms. A holon can give up its wholeness. For example a molecule can be broken down into its parts, atoms. But here is the trick: holons are only phenomena and as such it it is just information; seemingly separate parts. Reality is Noumenon, indestructible and the container for the whole " holon factory " . Reality is eternal Oneness. A human being is a holon, but is also Noumenon shining through the human form. A physical body is in reality not a separate thing, but only a projection of phenomena. For a description of the evolution of holons, see: http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=10 & pageid=113 & pgtype=1 al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My idea is that this planet is not born yet. That's why ALL > > > > humans > > > > > > > live in contraction. It's like Plato's cave, or like a > > chicken > > > > > > inside > > > > > > > its eggshell. As the chicken mature, the eggshell provides > > > > > > protection > > > > > > > and inside the egg there is all the food needed. But there > > > > comes a > > > > > > > time when the food begins to run out. The chicken is then > > fully > > > > > > > matured and the eggshell is no longer a protection but a > > > > hideous > > > > > > dark > > > > > > > prison. Our world today is like that chicken inside its > > > > eggshell. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > hi al., > > > > > > > > > > > > you have fantastic " ideas " ..... > > > > > > but ok....if you miss the soul (your real Self).....i > > understand > > > > that > > > > > > maybe this is the reason....of your fantasies... > > > > > > and your " will " to get out of this " egg " ... > > > > > > > > > > > > this your " world " which " is like a chicken inside its > > > > eggshell " ....is > > > > > > your own perception of your (own) world....... > > > > > > maybe it's time to get out of this dream perception...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the form of an egg is indead interesting...... > > > > > > read in the past about the some " egg form " related > > theories.... > > > > > > maybe there is somebody who could write about....thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you have a smal paper in your hand (mind)......on which the > > > > > > concentration of your words (thoughts) is of high density..... > > > > > > imagine that this paper will change into a form....endless > > > > bigger.... > > > > > > > > > > > > now...what would be the density of this your appearing " words > > and > > > > > > thoughts " ....? > > > > > > > > > > > > there is no more " space " on your paper (ego- mind)......time > > for > > > > > > another dimension..... > > > > > > > > > > > > of soul > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and love > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hehe. Yes, the idea about this planet not being born yet is > > > > > speculative to the extreme. But if we look how evolution > > develops as > > > > > holons (wholes that are part of other wholes) then there is a > > slight > > > > > possibility that I may be correct (but I wouldn't bet my money > > on > > > > this > > > > > idea). Holons are for example atoms, molecules, cells and mutli- > > > > celled > > > > > organisms. Molecules are holons (wholes) that are made of atoms > > > > which > > > > > are holons on a lower level. The highest (and therefore most > > > > complex) > > > > > holon on this planet today is the human being. Societies can > > also be > > > > > seen as holons, but for me they are not complete holons, but > > rather > > > > > inter-holon structures. The next true level of holon > > > > > is..................a planetary organism! It would be silly if > > in a > > > > > human being the left arm would be in war with its right arm. > > But if > > > > we > > > > > look at the planet as a whole, then we see that parts of > > humanity > > > > ARE > > > > > in war with other parts, i.e. the planet is not a complete > > holon > > > > yet, > > > > > only an embryo for a holon. > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > Hi al., > > > > > > > > ...are you a scientific person...?.... > > > > only asking.....trying to find out in how far i'm just somebody > > who > > > > help you to develop (sell) wonderful dreams.... > > > > > > > > bliss is never " sold out " ..... > > > > > > > > but if you talk about humanity.....there is maybe no balance, > > > > indead..... > > > > many people are " sold out " .... > > > > > > > > it's a positiv attitude trying to " see " the whole...of the > > planet.... > > > > or your " holon view " > > > > and so...to create some " unity " to what happen...in your > > perception > > > > of the planet and world > > > > (it's about your own unity of body-mind-soul....) > > > > > > > > maybe some people have different " tasks " ....in order to > > > > kill.....during life time...this their ego-minds.....and get out > > of > > > > the " egg " ....of a limited being > > > > > > > > maybe the " wholeness of perception " of the planet.....is also a > > kind > > > > of " holon " .......?.....only an " idea " ... > > > > > > > > ok, coming back to Karma...and the attachments the minds are born > > > > with.....and have to detach from > > > > > > > > if it is related to your Karma....to " balance " humanity with nice > > > > plans and " ideas " ..........you should do so > > > > > > > > what is the Karma of whatever " holon " ?..... > > > > to get out of " limitations " ..... > > > > > > > > > > > > (no garantie for any concepts and words) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ciao for now > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > I work as a computer consultant and have some scientific background > > in > > > that area. > > > > > > Karma is the effect of incompleteness of a holon in relation to the > > > next higher level of holon. When the planetary organism is born, > > then > > > the lower holons (humans) will no longer have karma because they > > will > > > then work in harmony with the higher level of holon (Gaia). > > > > > > The next level of holon after planetary organism would be galactic > > > organism. But that would be a holon so advanced that we can probably > > > only speculate about it. We must be careful about using our level of > > > thinking and try to understand what a planetary organism is. It > > would > > > be like a single cell trying to understand what a human being is. > > When > > > we use our level of thinking then it is easy that our idea of a > > > planetary consciousness is that it would be some mechanical > > > totalitarian flatland grid of telepathically connected humans; a > > > planet where humans would be mere " cells " working for the greater > > > whole (the planet). My idea is that humans in a planetary organism > > > would be Gaia itself, with a level of intelligence that is way > > beyond > > > any human today. There may be very advanced forms of telepathic > > > communication going on between humans in a planetary organism, but > > > more or less on a subconscious level. No person would be afraid of > > > another person. That would be like the left arm in a human being > > being > > > afraid of the right arm in the same body! > > > > > > al. > > > > ...this discussion become very " scientific " .... > > > > you describe different kind of " holons " ....different levels > > of " holons " ..... > > what does make a " holon " , whatever kind of, what it Is?....if not the > > relation to all other " holons " at same time...... > > > > this kind of " seperations " of " holons " ....in your > > description .....let it look like many different (seperated) > > parts ....of a whole.... > > it describe the tendency for a " holon " , whatever kind of, to > > grow.......in order to become, one day.....The holon, of > > all " others " .... > > > > (there again, is your personal tendency to " control " ...ok, joking) > > > > is there only a tendency for a " holon " to grow.....?....you can't > > imagine a " holon " giving up the " wholeness " of it?....(black hole > > kind of.... > > > > your " idea " of a planetery organism in which humans would be Gaia > > itself ...sound a very nice (dream) > > > > maybe those places....this " systems " already exists.....in other > > parts of the " whole " ..... > > > > in other consciousness.... > > > > means in other " unities " of.....body-mind-soul..... > > > > Regards > > > > Marc > > > The basic truth, which I think science today has missed, is that > everything is one wholeness. We can call this common ground Noumenon > to borrow from the philosophy of Kant. The idea that there are > separate (othogonal) dimensions in existence is a myth. Science today > talk about reality having 11 dimensions. On a relative level that may > be true, but fundamentally there can only be one " dimension " . > > Within Noumenon exist seemingly separate objects, like dimensions, > particles, atoms e t c. We can call all forms of seemingly separate > objects in Noumenon for Phenomena. > > Pheomena, which means " stuff " , things that appear to be separate, > evolves. Evolution has an arrow that goes from subatomic particles at > the beginning of the " Big Bang " and evolves into atoms, then > molecules, then cells, then into multi-celled organisms, then into > planetary organisms, followed by galactic organisms, universal > organisms, inter-universal organisms... > > What you call other parts of the whole may indeed contain holons on > every conceivable level and of all types. But in our universe > evolution has only reached the treshold for holon level: planetary > organism. > > Holons don't grow, the emerge. When the lower level of holons have > reach sufficient maturity they form a new level of being, a new level > of holon, such as atoms forming molecules and molecules forming cells. > > What makes a holon a holon is its relation to the holons whithin it; a > holon transcends and embraces the holons on the lower level, such as a > molecule transcends and embraces atoms. > > A holon can give up its wholeness. For example a molecule can be > broken down into its parts, atoms. But here is the trick: holons are > only phenomena and as such it it is just information; seemingly > separate parts. Reality is Noumenon, indestructible and the container > for the whole " holon factory " . Reality is eternal Oneness. > > A human being is a holon, but is also Noumenon shining through the > human form. A physical body is in reality not a separate thing, but > only a projection of phenomena. > > For a description of the evolution of holons, see: > http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm? confid=10 & pageid=113 & pgtype=1 > > al. ..... " one dimension " .....ok, sounds better....or more " realistic " ... you remember the smal paper....in which the thoughts and words are percieved..... you remember the larger paper......on which the density of thoughts and words is less..... the " paper " itself...... " the screen " .....is also part of the " whole " ....... .....the screen allow to percieve....something...whatever..... but is not " of the thoughts and words " ....and world so.... wish a nice weekend Regards Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My idea is that this planet is not born yet. That's why > ALL > > > > > humans > > > > > > > > live in contraction. It's like Plato's cave, or like a > > > chicken > > > > > > > inside > > > > > > > > its eggshell. As the chicken mature, the eggshell > provides > > > > > > > protection > > > > > > > > and inside the egg there is all the food needed. But > there > > > > > comes a > > > > > > > > time when the food begins to run out. The chicken is > then > > > fully > > > > > > > > matured and the eggshell is no longer a protection but > a > > > > > hideous > > > > > > > dark > > > > > > > > prison. Our world today is like that chicken inside its > > > > > eggshell. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi al., > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you have fantastic " ideas " ..... > > > > > > > but ok....if you miss the soul (your real Self).....i > > > understand > > > > > that > > > > > > > maybe this is the reason....of your fantasies... > > > > > > > and your " will " to get out of this " egg " ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this your " world " which " is like a chicken inside its > > > > > eggshell " ....is > > > > > > > your own perception of your (own) world....... > > > > > > > maybe it's time to get out of this dream perception...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the form of an egg is indead interesting...... > > > > > > > read in the past about the some " egg form " related > > > theories.... > > > > > > > maybe there is somebody who could write about....thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you have a smal paper in your hand (mind)......on which > the > > > > > > > concentration of your words (thoughts) is of high > density..... > > > > > > > imagine that this paper will change into a > form....endless > > > > > bigger.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now...what would be the density of this your > appearing " words > > > and > > > > > > > thoughts " ....? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is no more " space " on your paper (ego- > mind)......time > > > for > > > > > > > another dimension..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of soul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and love > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hehe. Yes, the idea about this planet not being born yet is > > > > > > speculative to the extreme. But if we look how evolution > > > develops as > > > > > > holons (wholes that are part of other wholes) then there is > a > > > slight > > > > > > possibility that I may be correct (but I wouldn't bet my > money > > > on > > > > > this > > > > > > idea). Holons are for example atoms, molecules, cells and > mutli- > > > > > celled > > > > > > organisms. Molecules are holons (wholes) that are made of > atoms > > > > > which > > > > > > are holons on a lower level. The highest (and therefore > most > > > > > complex) > > > > > > holon on this planet today is the human being. Societies > can > > > also be > > > > > > seen as holons, but for me they are not complete holons, > but > > > rather > > > > > > inter-holon structures. The next true level of holon > > > > > > is..................a planetary organism! It would be silly > if > > > in a > > > > > > human being the left arm would be in war with its right > arm. > > > But if > > > > > we > > > > > > look at the planet as a whole, then we see that parts of > > > humanity > > > > > ARE > > > > > > in war with other parts, i.e. the planet is not a complete > > > holon > > > > > yet, > > > > > > only an embryo for a holon. > > > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > Hi al., > > > > > > > > > > ...are you a scientific person...?.... > > > > > only asking.....trying to find out in how far i'm just > somebody > > > who > > > > > help you to develop (sell) wonderful dreams.... > > > > > > > > > > bliss is never " sold out " ..... > > > > > > > > > > but if you talk about humanity.....there is maybe no balance, > > > > > indead..... > > > > > many people are " sold out " .... > > > > > > > > > > it's a positiv attitude trying to " see " the whole...of the > > > planet.... > > > > > or your " holon view " > > > > > and so...to create some " unity " to what happen...in your > > > perception > > > > > of the planet and world > > > > > (it's about your own unity of body-mind-soul....) > > > > > > > > > > maybe some people have different " tasks " ....in order to > > > > > kill.....during life time...this their ego-minds.....and get > out > > > of > > > > > the " egg " ....of a limited being > > > > > > > > > > maybe the " wholeness of perception " of the planet.....is also > a > > > kind > > > > > of " holon " .......?.....only an " idea " ... > > > > > > > > > > ok, coming back to Karma...and the attachments the minds are > born > > > > > with.....and have to detach from > > > > > > > > > > if it is related to your Karma....to " balance " humanity with > nice > > > > > plans and " ideas " ..........you should do so > > > > > > > > > > what is the Karma of whatever " holon " ?..... > > > > > to get out of " limitations " ..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (no garantie for any concepts and words) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ciao for now > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > I work as a computer consultant and have some scientific > background > > > in > > > > that area. > > > > > > > > Karma is the effect of incompleteness of a holon in relation to > the > > > > next higher level of holon. When the planetary organism is > born, > > > then > > > > the lower holons (humans) will no longer have karma because > they > > > will > > > > then work in harmony with the higher level of holon (Gaia). > > > > > > > > The next level of holon after planetary organism would be > galactic > > > > organism. But that would be a holon so advanced that we can > probably > > > > only speculate about it. We must be careful about using our > level of > > > > thinking and try to understand what a planetary organism is. It > > > would > > > > be like a single cell trying to understand what a human being > is. > > > When > > > > we use our level of thinking then it is easy that our idea of a > > > > planetary consciousness is that it would be some mechanical > > > > totalitarian flatland grid of telepathically connected humans; a > > > > planet where humans would be mere " cells " working for the > greater > > > > whole (the planet). My idea is that humans in a planetary > organism > > > > would be Gaia itself, with a level of intelligence that is way > > > beyond > > > > any human today. There may be very advanced forms of telepathic > > > > communication going on between humans in a planetary organism, > but > > > > more or less on a subconscious level. No person would be afraid > of > > > > another person. That would be like the left arm in a human > being > > > being > > > > afraid of the right arm in the same body! > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > ...this discussion become very " scientific " .... > > > > > > you describe different kind of " holons " ....different levels > > > of " holons " ..... > > > what does make a " holon " , whatever kind of, what it Is?....if not > the > > > relation to all other " holons " at same time...... > > > > > > this kind of " seperations " of " holons " ....in your > > > description .....let it look like many different (seperated) > > > parts ....of a whole.... > > > it describe the tendency for a " holon " , whatever kind of, to > > > grow.......in order to become, one day.....The holon, of > > > all " others " .... > > > > > > (there again, is your personal tendency to " control " ...ok, > joking) > > > > > > is there only a tendency for a " holon " to grow.....?....you can't > > > imagine a " holon " giving up the " wholeness " of it?....(black hole > > > kind of.... > > > > > > your " idea " of a planetery organism in which humans would be Gaia > > > itself ...sound a very nice (dream) > > > > > > maybe those places....this " systems " already exists.....in other > > > parts of the " whole " ..... > > > > > > in other consciousness.... > > > > > > means in other " unities " of.....body-mind-soul..... > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > The basic truth, which I think science today has missed, is that > > everything is one wholeness. We can call this common ground Noumenon > > to borrow from the philosophy of Kant. The idea that there are > > separate (othogonal) dimensions in existence is a myth. Science > today > > talk about reality having 11 dimensions. On a relative level that > may > > be true, but fundamentally there can only be one " dimension " . > > > > Within Noumenon exist seemingly separate objects, like dimensions, > > particles, atoms e t c. We can call all forms of seemingly separate > > objects in Noumenon for Phenomena. > > > > Pheomena, which means " stuff " , things that appear to be separate, > > evolves. Evolution has an arrow that goes from subatomic particles > at > > the beginning of the " Big Bang " and evolves into atoms, then > > molecules, then cells, then into multi-celled organisms, then into > > planetary organisms, followed by galactic organisms, universal > > organisms, inter-universal organisms... > > > > What you call other parts of the whole may indeed contain holons on > > every conceivable level and of all types. But in our universe > > evolution has only reached the treshold for holon level: planetary > > organism. > > > > Holons don't grow, the emerge. When the lower level of holons have > > reach sufficient maturity they form a new level of being, a new > level > > of holon, such as atoms forming molecules and molecules forming > cells. > > > > What makes a holon a holon is its relation to the holons whithin > it; a > > holon transcends and embraces the holons on the lower level, such > as a > > molecule transcends and embraces atoms. > > > > A holon can give up its wholeness. For example a molecule can be > > broken down into its parts, atoms. But here is the trick: holons are > > only phenomena and as such it it is just information; seemingly > > separate parts. Reality is Noumenon, indestructible and the > container > > for the whole " holon factory " . Reality is eternal Oneness. > > > > A human being is a holon, but is also Noumenon shining through the > > human form. A physical body is in reality not a separate thing, but > > only a projection of phenomena. > > > > For a description of the evolution of holons, see: > > http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm? > confid=10 & pageid=113 & pgtype=1 > > > > al. > > .... " one dimension " .....ok, sounds better....or more " realistic " ... > > you remember the smal paper....in which the thoughts and words are > percieved..... > > you remember the larger paper......on which the density of thoughts > and words is less..... > > the " paper " itself...... " the screen " .....is also part of > the " whole " ....... > > ....the screen allow to percieve....something...whatever..... > > but is not " of the thoughts and words " ....and world so.... > > wish a nice weekend > > Regards > > Marc The screen/paper is Noumenon, and the movie/writings on it is Phenomena. A nice weekend to you too al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 >...you become free of this fire by > simply not putting yourself in it. > > Something that you can do NOW... > > Something that you can do Only Now... > > Put your hand in the fire... or Not. > > ... > > > Mentally indulging in Samsara is that > Fire! > What is Enlightenment? [or, why someone 'enlightened' like Tolle needs to stay Vigilant? What about you? Wht would happen, if you stayed Vigilant?] **************** Tolle: < http://www.wie.org/ > Article: Ripples on the Surface of Being An interview with Eckhart Tolle by Andrew Cohen ---------- There is a balance now in my life, which perhaps wasn't there before. When the inner transformation happened many years ago, one could almost say a balance was lost....... ....There is now a pull toward increasing doing. People want me to talk here and talk there—there are constant demands. I KNOW THAT I NEED TO BE ATTENTIVE NOW, SO THAT THE BALANCE IS NOT LOST, AND I DON'T GET LOST IN DOING. I don't think it would ever happen, but it requires a certain amount of vigilance. AC: What would it mean to get lost in doing? ET: Theoretically, it would mean that I would continuously travel, teach, and interact with people. PERHAPS IF THAT HAPPENED, AT SOME POINT THE FLOW, THE STILLNESS, MIGHT NOT BE THERE. I don't know; it may always be there. Or physical exhaustion may set in. But I feel now that I NEED to return to the pure stillness periodically. And then, when the teaching happens, just allow it to arise out of the stillness. So the teaching and stillness are very closely connected. The teaching arises out of the stillness. But when I'm alone, there's only the stillness, and that is my favorite place. Ramana: ---------- from http://www.ajati.com/ramana2.htm http://www.terebess.hu/english/maharshi.html http://www.beezone.com/Ramana/Talks_with_.html and http://www.hermetic-philosophy.com/2.htm Realization is nothing to be gained afresh; it is already there. All that is necessary is to get rid of the thought " I have not realized " . # .....The feeling that I have not realised is the obstruction to realisation. In fact it is already realised; there is nothing more to be realised. Otherwise, the realisation will be new; it has not existed so far, it must take place hereafter. What is born will also die. ....... # M. ... If you STRENGTHEN the mind, that peace will continue for all time. Its duration is PROPORTIONAL to the strength of mind acquired by REPEATED practice. # ...... The only freedom you have is to turn your mind inward and renounces activities there. ....... 213. Mr. B. C. Das asked why the mind cannot be turned inward in spite of repeated attempts. M.: It is done by practice and dispassion and that succeeds ONLY gradually. ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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