Guest guest Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 Talking About Spiritual Teachers John: The tendency to talk about spiritual teachers, whether they are realized or not, which teaching is clearer and so on, is a complete diversion from the core understanding. It is a habit that simply diverts one away from the immediate and direct recognition of what is clear and available right in this moment. There is no teacher outside and independent of us who 'has the understanding', has awakened, is enlightened or what have you. This kind of assumption leads to mistaken beliefs that just cloud the simplicity of what is being pointed to. There are a couple of problems with this way of thinking. First, the idea that teacher 'so-and-so' is realized has the implicit assumption for most of us that 'therefore, I am not'. Thus the belief in the sense of separation from our own presence is subtly strengthened. Second, talking about teachers who have it (or not) reinforces a belief that what is being pointed to is outside of ourselves—again emphasizing a sense of separation. Third, the teachers being discussed are usually not in our immediate environment and we are simply spinning in conceptual thought about people that are figments in imagination in that moment. Even if there were such a being as an enlightened teacher, if you approached them, the most you would find is a physical form composed of matter, chemicals and cells—which are just transient appearances in awareness. So the whole notion of beings who are awake or have the understanding is a complete fiction when looked at head on. What is happening in this kind of thinking is that the attention is simply wandering in imagination and concepts. And the belief that reality is not present and that we exist as separate beings apart from it goes on without being exposed. Yet we can easily slip into statements such as, 'So-and-so is so clear', 'So-and-so has the understanding', 'Teacher X is realized, but teacher Y is not' and so on. Utter bullshit! So what is this all about? What is being pointed to? It is the very fact of present awareness, which is completely clear and fully accessible right now. It is illuminating every thought, feeling and experience. That is the one and only reality to be understood or recognized. No teacher has this. It stands on its own, completely free of any particular people or their experiences. At best, a teacher is simply a sign post that can point back to what is real and present within you. There is no enlightened sign post. There is only the fact of being-awareness itself. As soon as we begin to talk about others who have it or not, we overlook the fact that it is fully present and shining as our own real nature here and now. John Wheeler http://the naturalstate.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ love, Era Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 In a message dated 11/13/2005 10:52:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Talking About Spiritual Teachers John: The tendency to talk about spiritual teachers, whether they are realized or not, which teaching is clearer and so on, is a complete diversion from the core understanding. It is a habit that simply diverts one away from the immediate and direct recognition of what is clear and available right in this moment. There is no teacher outside and independent of us who 'has the understanding', has awakened, is enlightened or what have you. This kind of assumption leads to mistaken beliefs that just cloud the simplicity of what is being pointed to. There are a couple of problems with this way of thinking. First, the idea that teacher 'so-and-so' is realized has the implicit assumption for most of us that 'therefore, I am not'. Thus the belief in the sense of separation from our own presence is subtly strengthened. Second, talking about teachers who have it (or not) reinforces a belief that what is being pointed to is outside of ourselves—again emphasizing a sense of separation. Third, the teachers being discussed are usually not in our immediate environment and we are simply spinning in conceptual thought about people that are figments in imagination in that moment. Even if there were such a being as an enlightened teacher, if you approached them, the most you would find is a physical form composed of matter, chemicals and cells—which are just transient appearances in awareness. So the whole notion of beings who are awake or have the understanding is a complete fiction when looked at head on. What is happening in this kind of thinking is that the attention is simply wandering in imagination and concepts. And the belief that reality is not present and that we exist as separate beings apart from it goes on without being exposed. Yet we can easily slip into statements such as, 'So-and-so is so clear', 'So-and-so has the understanding', 'Teacher X is realized, but teacher Y is not' and so on. Utter bullshit! So what is this all about? What is being pointed to? It is the very fact of present awareness, which is completely clear and fully accessible right now. It is illuminating every thought, feeling and experience. That is the one and only reality to be understood or recognized. No teacher has this. It stands on its own, completely free of any particular people or their experiences. At best, a teacher is simply a sign post that can point back to what is real and present within you. There is no enlightened sign post. There is only the fact of being-awareness itself. As soon as we begin to talk about others who have it or not, we overlook the fact that it is fully present and shining as our own real nature here and now. John Wheeler Good stuff. One point that I didn't hear him articulate is that the mind/body mechanism of the teacher is as much a part of the dream as we are. He has no more control over the functioning of that mechanism than we do, and if pressed on the matter of why he teaches, he's likely to simply say, " I don't know " . It functions according to the totality of consciousness, just as we do, and there's no involvement with that. There are not things that are dreamed and things that are not. Even the appearance of those who have awakened is part of your dream. Sometimes I wish that didn't fascinate me so, but there it is. I have no choice about that either. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/13/2005 10:52:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Talking About Spiritual Teachers > > > John: The tendency to talk about spiritual teachers, whether they are > realized or not, which teaching is clearer and so on, is a complete diversion from > the core understanding. It is a habit that simply diverts one away from the > immediate and direct recognition of what is clear and available right in this > moment. > > There is no teacher outside and independent of us who 'has the > understanding', has awakened, is enlightened or what have you. This kind of assumption > leads to mistaken beliefs that just cloud the simplicity of what is being > pointed to. There are a couple of problems with this way of thinking. First, the > idea that teacher 'so-and-so' is realized has the implicit assumption for most > of us that 'therefore, I am not'. Thus the belief in the sense of separation > from our own presence is subtly strengthened. Second, talking about teachers > who have it (or not) reinforces a belief that what is being pointed to is > outside of ourselves†" again emphasizing a sense of separation. Third, the > teachers being discussed are usually not in our immediate environment and we are > simply spinning in conceptual thought about people that are figments in > imagination in that moment. Even if there were such a being as an enlightened > teacher, if you approached them, the most you would find is a physical form composed > of matter, chemicals and cells†" which are just transient appearances in > awareness. So the whole notion of beings who are awake or have the understanding > is a complete fiction when looked at head on. > > What is happening in this kind of thinking is that the attention is simply > wandering in imagination and concepts. And the belief that reality is not > present and that we exist as separate beings apart from it goes on without being > exposed. Yet we can easily slip into statements such as, 'So-and-so is so > clear', 'So-and-so has the understanding', 'Teacher X is realized, but teacher Y > is not' and so on. Utter bullshit! > > So what is this all about? What is being pointed to? It is the very fact of > present awareness, which is completely clear and fully accessible right now. > It is illuminating every thought, feeling and experience. That is the one and > only reality to be understood or recognized. No teacher has this. It stands > on its own, completely free of any particular people or their experiences. At > best, a teacher is simply a sign post that can point back to what is real > and present within you. > > > There is no enlightened sign post. There is only the fact of being-awareness > itself. As soon as we begin to talk about others who have it or not, we > overlook the fact that it is fully present and shining as our own real nature > here and now. > > > John Wheeler > > > > Good stuff. > One point that I didn't hear him articulate is that the mind/body mechanism > of the teacher is as much a part of the dream as we are. He has no more > control over the functioning of that mechanism than we do, and if pressed on the > matter of why he teaches, he's likely to simply say, " I don't know " . It > functions according to the totality of consciousness, just as we do, and there's no > involvement with that. > > There are not things that are dreamed and things that are not. Even the > appearance of those who have awakened is part of your dream. Sometimes I wish > that didn't fascinate me so, but there it is. I have no choice about that either. > > Phil > It isn't that you have no choice. There simply is no you to have....... or not have............ a choice. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 _____ Nisargadatta [Nisargadatta ] On Behalf Of toombaru2004 Sunday, November 13, 2005 8:44 PM Nisargadatta Re: Tha natural State It isn't that you have no choice. There simply is no you to have....... or not have............ a choice. toombaru Are you sure? :-). _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 - Harsha Nisargadatta Sunday, November 13, 2005 10:36 PM RE: Re: Tha natural State _____ Nisargadatta [Nisargadatta ] On Behalf Of toombaru2004 Sunday, November 13, 2005 8:44 PM Nisargadatta Re: Tha natural State It isn't that you have no choice. There simply is no you to have....... or not have............ a choice. toombaru Are you sure? :-). _____ Hi Harsha, No one is sure ;-) Ana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 11/13/2005 10:52:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > Talking About Spiritual Teachers > > > > > > John: The tendency to talk about spiritual teachers, whether they are > > realized or not, which teaching is clearer and so on, is a complete diversion from > > the core understanding. It is a habit that simply diverts one away from the > > immediate and direct recognition of what is clear and available right in this > > moment. > > > > There is no teacher outside and independent of us who 'has the > > understanding', has awakened, is enlightened or what have you. This kind of > assumption > > leads to mistaken beliefs that just cloud the simplicity of what is being > > pointed to. There are a couple of problems with this way of thinking. First, the > > idea that teacher 'so-and-so' is realized has the implicit assumption for most > > of us that 'therefore, I am not'. Thus the belief in the sense of separation > > from our own presence is subtly strengthened. Second, talking about teachers > > who have it (or not) reinforces a belief that what is being pointed to is > > outside of ourselves†" again emphasizing a sense of separation. Third, the > > teachers being discussed are usually not in our immediate environment and we are > > simply spinning in conceptual thought about people that are figments in > > imagination in that moment. Even if there were such a being as an enlightened > > teacher, if you approached them, the most you would find is a physical form composed > > of matter, chemicals and cells†" which are just transient appearances in > > awareness. So the whole notion of beings who are awake or have the understanding > > is a complete fiction when looked at head on. > > > > What is happening in this kind of thinking is that the attention is simply > > wandering in imagination and concepts. And the belief that reality is not > > present and that we exist as separate beings apart from it goes on without being > > exposed. Yet we can easily slip into statements such as, 'So-and- so is so > > clear', 'So-and-so has the understanding', 'Teacher X is realized, but teacher Y > > is not' and so on. Utter bullshit! > > > > So what is this all about? What is being pointed to? It is the very fact of > > present awareness, which is completely clear and fully accessible right now. > > It is illuminating every thought, feeling and experience. That is the one and > > only reality to be understood or recognized. No teacher has this. It stands > > on its own, completely free of any particular people or their experiences. At > > best, a teacher is simply a sign post that can point back to what is real > > and present within you. > > > > > > There is no enlightened sign post. There is only the fact of being-awareness > > itself. As soon as we begin to talk about others who have it or not, we > > overlook the fact that it is fully present and shining as our own real nature > > here and now. > > > > > > John Wheeler > > > > > > > > Good stuff. > > One point that I didn't hear him articulate is that the mind/body mechanism > > of the teacher is as much a part of the dream as we are. He has no more > > control over the functioning of that mechanism than we do, and if pressed on the > > matter of why he teaches, he's likely to simply say, " I don't know " . It > > functions according to the totality of consciousness, just as we do, and there's no > > involvement with that. > > > > There are not things that are dreamed and things that are not. Even the > > appearance of those who have awakened is part of your dream. Sometimes I wish > > that didn't fascinate me so, but there it is. I have no choice about that either. > > > > Phil > > > > > It isn't that you have no choice. > > There simply is no you to have....... or not have............ a choice. > > > > toombaru thank you Phil and toombaru ....nice (view)points... in (awareness) Oneness of being...... " who " could be there to have a choice or not.....? .....it only appear that one is in the " world " ....a " part " of it.....like " others " too...... ....just like the dream during sleep appear to be true.....until one wake up... Regards and peace Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > - > Harsha > Nisargadatta > Sunday, November 13, 2005 10:36 PM > RE: Re: Tha natural State > > > _____ > > Nisargadatta > [Nisargadatta ] On Behalf Of > toombaru2004 > Sunday, November 13, 2005 8:44 PM > Nisargadatta > Re: Tha natural State > > > It isn't that you have no choice. > > There simply is no you to have....... or not > have............ a choice. > > toombaru > > Are you sure? :-). > _____ > > > Hi Harsha, > > No one is sure ;-) > > Ana ....no one " who " could assure (you) the truth......except your-Self > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > - > Harsha > Nisargadatta > Sunday, November 13, 2005 10:36 PM > RE: Re: Tha natural State > > > _____ > > Nisargadatta > [Nisargadatta ] On Behalf Of > toombaru2004 > Sunday, November 13, 2005 8:44 PM > Nisargadatta > Re: Tha natural State > > > It isn't that you have no choice. > > There simply is no you to have....... or not > have............ a choice. > > toombaru > > Are you sure? :-). > _____ > > > Hi Harsha, > > No one is sure ;-) > > Ana > > ************* Guess again. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Harsha " wrote: > > _____ > > Nisargadatta > [Nisargadatta ] On Behalf Of > toombaru2004 > Sunday, November 13, 2005 8:44 PM > Nisargadatta > Re: Tha natural State > > > It isn't that you have no choice. > > There simply is no you to have....... or not > have............ a choice. > > toombaru > > Are you sure? :-). > _____ > > ********** Show us your teeth, Harsha. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > - > Judi Rhodes > Nisargadatta > Monday, November 14, 2005 9:19 AM > Re: Tha natural State > > > Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > > > > - > > Harsha > > Nisargadatta > > Sunday, November 13, 2005 10:36 PM > > RE: Re: Tha natural State > > > > > > _____ > > > > Nisargadatta > > [Nisargadatta ] On Behalf Of > > toombaru2004 > > Sunday, November 13, 2005 8:44 PM > > Nisargadatta > > Re: Tha natural State > > > > > > It isn't that you have no choice. > > > > There simply is no you to have....... or not > > have............ a choice. > > > > toombaru > > > > Are you sure? :-). > > _____ > > > > > > Hi Harsha, > > > > No one is sure ;-) > > > > Ana > > > > > ************* > Guess again. > > Judi > > I am fresh outta guesses... > save me...'-) > > > ********* Speak for yourself then. And while you're at it, show us your teeth too, show us who you are. Let's take a good look at what Anna really is underneath the facade. Some of us here already know. Self-realization 101. Judi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 In a message dated 11/14/2005 12:41:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: It isn't that you have no choice. There simply is no you to have....... or not have............ a choice. toombaru Are you sure? :-). _____ Hi Harsha, No one is sure ;-) Ana It's all a trick! They're trying to control us! Hehe. Actually, it's not very difficult to notice that we don't have choices. If you ponder what makes up our choice, you notice that it's based on experience and desire. The desire is always to seek pleasure and avoid pain. The experience component is the result of all previous seeming choices, which were based on previous experiences, and so on. You can notice that it begins to look very mechanical, as if you could potentially program all experiences into a computer and only one possible option would pop out as a given. There's a cliche that repeating the same behavior over and over, expecting different results is the definition of insanity. This insanity is more often the rule because we do actually repeat these behaviors even though we consciously choose not to. A close examination of your own major life choices might also reveal a series of synchronistic events that seem to have lead you to an inevitable choice, over which you really had no control. It becomes clear that diets, habits, behavioral patterns are extremely stubborn and don't bend to our will. Even beliefs are not chosen, but rather seem to be conclusions based on our experience, over which we had no control. Of course, ego wants to believe it has choice, free will and control, and so it fills in the actual experience with a bit of extra 'data' so that it sometimes seems so. Of course, one can also create a dream in which all of this is disproved. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/14/2005 12:41:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > It isn't that you have no choice. > > There simply is no you to have....... or not > have............ a choice. > > toombaru > > Are you sure? :-). > _____ > > > Hi Harsha, > > No one is sure ;-) > > Ana > > > > It's all a trick! They're trying to control us! Hehe. > Actually, it's not very difficult to notice that we don't have choices. If > you ponder what makes up our choice, you notice that it's based on experience > and desire. The desire is always to seek pleasure and avoid pain. The > experience component is the result of all previous seeming choices, which were based > on previous experiences, and so on. You can notice that it begins to look > very mechanical, as if you could potentially program all experiences into a > computer and only one possible option would pop out as a given. > > There's a cliche that repeating the same behavior over and over, expecting > different results is the definition of insanity. This insanity is more often > the rule because we do actually repeat these behaviors even though we > consciously choose not to. > > A close examination of your own major life choices might also reveal a > series of synchronistic events that seem to have lead you to an inevitable choice, > over which you really had no control. > > It becomes clear that diets, habits, behavioral patterns are extremely > stubborn and don't bend to our will. Even beliefs are not chosen, but rather seem > to be conclusions based on our experience, over which we had no control. > > Of course, ego wants to believe it has choice, free will and control, and so > it fills in the actual experience with a bit of extra 'data' so that it > sometimes seems so. Of course, one can also create a dream in which all of this > is disproved. > > Phil Hi Phil, the only free choice " one " could have....is to just Be....oneSelf.... to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... to be One with It.... to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through oneself..... to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain point.....to be repeated..... by attitudes..... by attachments in the appearent world..... The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the movie need to be projected.... .....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). Regards and peace Marc > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 11/14/2005 12:41:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > It isn't that you have no choice. > > > > There simply is no you to have....... or not > > have............ a choice. > > > > toombaru > > > > Are you sure? :-). > > _____ > > > > > > Hi Harsha, > > > > No one is sure ;-) > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > It's all a trick! They're trying to control us! Hehe. > > Actually, it's not very difficult to notice that we don't have > choices. If > > you ponder what makes up our choice, you notice that it's based on > experience > > and desire. The desire is always to seek pleasure and avoid pain. > The > > experience component is the result of all previous seeming > choices, which were based > > on previous experiences, and so on. You can notice that it begins > to look > > very mechanical, as if you could potentially program all > experiences into a > > computer and only one possible option would pop out as a given. > > > > There's a cliche that repeating the same behavior over and over, > expecting > > different results is the definition of insanity. This insanity is > more often > > the rule because we do actually repeat these behaviors even though > we > > consciously choose not to. > > > > A close examination of your own major life choices might also > reveal a > > series of synchronistic events that seem to have lead you to an > inevitable choice, > > over which you really had no control. > > > > It becomes clear that diets, habits, behavioral patterns are > extremely > > stubborn and don't bend to our will. Even beliefs are not chosen, > but rather seem > > to be conclusions based on our experience, over which we had no > control. > > > > Of course, ego wants to believe it has choice, free will and > control, and so > > it fills in the actual experience with a bit of extra 'data' so > that it > > sometimes seems so. Of course, one can also create a dream in which > all of this > > is disproved. > > > > Phil > > Hi Phil, > > the only free choice " one " could have....is to just Be....oneSelf.... > > to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... > to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... > to be One with It.... > to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through > oneself..... > > to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... > > any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain > point.....to be repeated..... > > by attitudes..... > > by attachments in the appearent world..... > > The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the movie > need to be projected.... > > ....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? > > how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving > shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). > > Regards and peace > > Marc > " One " is nothing other then the obstruction that obscures the 'awakening'. 'You' can't have both. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/14/2005 12:41:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > It isn't that you have no choice. > > > > > > There simply is no you to have....... or not > > > have............ a choice. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Are you sure? :-). > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > Hi Harsha, > > > > > > No one is sure ;-) > > > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > It's all a trick! They're trying to control us! Hehe. > > > Actually, it's not very difficult to notice that we don't have > > choices. If > > > you ponder what makes up our choice, you notice that it's based on > > experience > > > and desire. The desire is always to seek pleasure and avoid pain. > > The > > > experience component is the result of all previous seeming > > choices, which were based > > > on previous experiences, and so on. You can notice that it begins > > to look > > > very mechanical, as if you could potentially program all > > experiences into a > > > computer and only one possible option would pop out as a given. > > > > > > There's a cliche that repeating the same behavior over and over, > > expecting > > > different results is the definition of insanity. This insanity is > > more often > > > the rule because we do actually repeat these behaviors even though > > we > > > consciously choose not to. > > > > > > A close examination of your own major life choices might also > > reveal a > > > series of synchronistic events that seem to have lead you to an > > inevitable choice, > > > over which you really had no control. > > > > > > It becomes clear that diets, habits, behavioral patterns are > > extremely > > > stubborn and don't bend to our will. Even beliefs are not chosen, > > but rather seem > > > to be conclusions based on our experience, over which we had no > > control. > > > > > > Of course, ego wants to believe it has choice, free will and > > control, and so > > > it fills in the actual experience with a bit of extra 'data' so > > that it > > > sometimes seems so. Of course, one can also create a dream in which > > all of this > > > is disproved. > > > > > > Phil > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > the only free choice " one " could have....is to just Be....oneSelf.... > > > > to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... > > to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... > > to be One with It.... > > to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through > > oneself..... > > > > to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... > > > > any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain > > point.....to be repeated..... > > > > by attitudes..... > > > > by attachments in the appearent world..... > > > > The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the movie > > need to be projected.... > > > > ....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? > > > > how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving > > shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > " One " is nothing other then the obstruction that obscures the 'awakening'. > > 'You' can't have both. > > > toombaru .....yes, true.....it happen that " One " or " Oneness " let the mind tend....to just " stay in illusion " .......in being satisfied to be a " part of this nice (One) illusion " .....or believe that one is this Oneness ....or whatever........ but the awareness of a Oneness in perception can help to dissolve the identification with body-mind-intellect.........getting slowly a different consciousness....and awareness..... awareness of " behind the mind-perception " .... i agree that it's impossible to be in " both " ....at same time Regards Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 In a message dated 11/15/2005 12:26:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Hi Phil, the only free choice " one " could have....is to just Be....oneSelf.... to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... to be One with It.... to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through oneself..... to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain point.....to be repeated..... by attitudes..... by attachments in the appearent world..... The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the movie need to be projected.... .....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). Regards and peace Marc That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone present to make such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/15/2005 12:26:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > > Hi Phil, > > the only free choice " one " could have....is to just Be....oneSelf.... > > to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... > to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... > to be One with It.... > to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through > oneself..... > > to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... > > any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain > point.....to be repeated..... > > by attitudes..... > > by attachments in the appearent world..... > > The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the movie > need to be projected.... > > ....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? > > how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving > shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone present to make > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > Phil lol..... the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... are you present? Regards and peace Marc > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 In a message dated 11/16/2005 2:00:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: > Hi Phil, > > the only free choice " one " could have....is to just Be....oneSelf.... > > to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... > to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... > to be One with It.... > to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through > oneself..... > > to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... > > any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain > point.....to be repeated..... > > by attitudes..... > > by attachments in the appearent world..... > > The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the movie > need to be projected.... > > ....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? > > how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving > shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone present to make > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > Phil lol..... the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... are you present? Regards and peace Marc ::::: checking....checking :::: Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to the illusory choosing going on in the human mind. If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you think you would have done so by now? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/16/2005 2:00:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > > Hi Phil, > > > > the only free choice " one " could have....is to just > Be....oneSelf.... > > > > to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... > > to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... > > to be One with It.... > > to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through > > oneself..... > > > > to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... > > > > any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain > > point.....to be repeated..... > > > > by attitudes..... > > > > by attachments in the appearent world..... > > > > The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the > movie > > need to be projected.... > > > > ....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? > > > > how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving > > shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone present to > make > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > Phil > > lol..... > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > are you present? > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to the > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you think you would > have done so by now? > > Phil > Hi, Phil: It is thought which creates the illusion of a separate ego. " I thought " this and " I thought " that... etc., etc. When thought is not there, neither am " I " . sincerely, dannyc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " dannyc_1eyeluv " <dannyc_1eyeluv> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 11/16/2005 2:00:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > the only free choice " one " could have....is to just > > Be....oneSelf.... > > > > > > to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... > > > to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... > > > to be One with It.... > > > to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through > > > oneself..... > > > > > > to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... > > > > > > any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain > > > point.....to be repeated..... > > > > > > by attitudes..... > > > > > > by attachments in the appearent world..... > > > > > > The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the > > movie > > > need to be projected.... > > > > > > ....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? > > > > > > how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving > > > shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone present to > > make > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > > > Phil > > > > lol..... > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > are you present? > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to the > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you think you > would > > have done so by now? > > > > Phil > > > > Hi, Phil: > > It is thought which creates the illusion of a separate ego. " I > thought " this and " I thought " that... etc., etc. When thought is not > there, neither am " I " . > > sincerely, > > dannyc > Yes, and when thought is present there is no ego too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 In a message dated 11/17/2005 2:13:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: > Hi Phil, > > > > the only free choice " one " could have....is to just > Be....oneSelf.... > > > > to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... > > to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... > > to be One with It.... > > to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through > > oneself..... > > > > to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... > > > > any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain > > point.....to be repeated..... > > > > by attitudes..... > > > > by attachments in the appearent world..... > > > > The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the > movie > > need to be projected.... > > > > ....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? > > > > how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving > > shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone present to > make > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > Phil > > lol..... > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > are you present? > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to the > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you think you would > have done so by now? > > Phil > Hi, Phil: It is thought which creates the illusion of a separate ego. " I thought " this and " I thought " that... etc., etc. When thought is not there, neither am " I " . sincerely, dannyc Yup. From the perspective of that 'I', it's both fortunate and unfortunate that the ceasing of the thoughts cannot be chosen. An interesting conundrum for a non-existent being, eh? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/16/2005 2:00:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > > Hi Phil, > > > > the only free choice " one " could have....is to just > Be....oneSelf.... > > > > to be oneSelf....is to " look " behind all this appearences..... > > to discover the shadow of oneself....in all this appearences..... > > to be One with It.... > > to be completely open (minded).....letting the light pass through > > oneself..... > > > > to be aware of formless Self....Brahman.....infinite emptyness..... > > > > any other choices have the tendency to come to an end at a certain > > point.....to be repeated..... > > > > by attitudes..... > > > > by attachments in the appearent world..... > > > > The Self care for all appearences......for all the energy the > movie > > need to be projected.... > > > > ....how could one loose " onself " in being aware of Self? > > > > how could one be aware of Self....if one is attached to the moving > > shadows....means, the projections of the appearent world (dream). > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone present to > make > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > Phil > > lol..... > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > are you present? > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to the > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you think you would > have done so by now? > > Phil Hi Phil, sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently you write: " ::::: checking....checking :::: > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to the > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " ....what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your choice' to see the dream as dream.....to be witness to the 'illusory'....whatever the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this your described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' ....ok, maybe the present Self has no other choice....than to just be Self..... nothing realy else existing.... Regards and peace Marc > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone present to > make > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > Phil > > lol..... > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > are you present? > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to the > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you think you would > have done so by now? > > Phil Hi Phil, sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently you write: " ::::: checking....checking :::: > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to the > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " ....what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your choice' to see the dream as dream.....to be witness to the 'illusory'....whatever the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this your described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' ....ok, maybe the present Self has no other choice....than to just be Self..... nothing realy else existing.... Regards and peace Marc The present self (human) has no other choice but to choose what is chosen, since there is no volitional entity present to choose. The human mind/body/ego is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It simply cannot make choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The choice was made as a part of the dream. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone > present to > > make > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > > > Phil > > > > lol..... > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > are you present? > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to > the > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you think > you would > > have done so by now? > > > > Phil > > Hi Phil, > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > you write: > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to > the > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your choice' to > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > the 'illusory'....whatever > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this your > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other choice....than to just be > Self..... > nothing realy else existing.... > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to choose what is chosen, > since there is no volitional entity present to choose. The human mind/body/ego > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It simply cannot make > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The choice was made as a part > of the dream. > > Phil hi Phil, yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in identification with body-mind-intellect........there is no free choice........ there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream-play " ....as there is in a dream during sleep...... means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if there is awareness.....or non-awareness if one write something with awareness.......there is no choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... if one write without awareness.....the words turn around....nothing but " fiction " (illusion)..... wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... Regards and peace Marc > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Choice ? Who is the chooser ? Identification ? Who is the identifier ? Awareness ? Who is aware ? Werner Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone > > present to > > > make > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness > to > > the > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you think > > you would > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > Phil > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > > > you write: > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness > to > > the > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your choice' to > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this your > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other choice....than to just > be > > Self..... > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to choose what is > chosen, > > since there is no volitional entity present to choose. The human > mind/body/ego > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It simply > cannot make > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The choice was > made as a part > > of the dream. > > > > Phil > > hi Phil, > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in identification with > body-mind-intellect........there is no free choice........ > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream-play " ....as there is > in a dream during sleep...... > means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if there is > awareness.....or non-awareness > > if one write something with awareness.......there is no > choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... > if one write without awareness.....the words turn around....nothing > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: Good morning Werner, the ego-mind has no choice....so there is no " chooser " in the ego- mind perception of the fiction called world the ego-mind make identification with body-mind-intellect.....thats the illusions....and dream....and the dream of " chooser " or " non- chooser " ....or whatever Awareness is what Is....constantly.....its the nature of Self......of infinite, timeless, changless ....being we are " that " .....nature of Self......and nothing else....... yes, ok.....we are " that " ....even if we are not aware of It......even if the ego-mind is dreaming to be " this are that... " Regards and peace Marc > Choice ? Who is the chooser ? > > Identification ? Who is the identifier ? > > Awareness ? Who is aware ? > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone > > > present to > > > > make > > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent > witness > > to > > > the > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you > think > > > you would > > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent > witness > > to > > > the > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your choice' > to > > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this your > > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other choice....than to > just > > be > > > Self..... > > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to choose what > is > > chosen, > > > since there is no volitional entity present to choose. The human > > mind/body/ego > > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It simply > > cannot make > > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The choice was > > made as a part > > > of the dream. > > > > > > Phil > > > > hi Phil, > > > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in identification > with > > body-mind-intellect........there is no free choice........ > > > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream-play " ....as there > is > > in a dream during sleep...... > > means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " > > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... > > > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if there is > > awareness.....or non-awareness > > > > if one write something with awareness.......there is no > > choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... > > if one write without awareness.....the words turn around....nothing > > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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