Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 A good morning too, Dennis, Ok, lets see: The ego mind's perseption of the fiction 'world' 1) The ego mind does not perceive the world. The world is the ego mind. 2) It is neither a fiction nor real, it is jus what it is: The content of consciousness. The ego/mind doesn't identify with anything - it is identification. There is no separation between the identifier and the identified - it is the same. Awareness is neither What is nor is it the Self - that is all total nonsense which you have read somewhere and are now selling it as " truth " . But ok, if for you awareness is just another word for consciouness then you are awareness or consciousness. Forget " the nature of the Self " , that is just another crap you have read somwhere. Werner Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > Good morning Werner, > > the ego-mind has no choice....so there is no " chooser " in the ego- > mind perception of the fiction called world > > the ego-mind make identification with body-mind-intellect.....thats > the illusions....and dream....and the dream of " chooser " or " non- > chooser " ....or whatever > > Awareness is what Is....constantly.....its the nature of Self......of > infinite, timeless, changless ....being > > we are " that " .....nature of Self......and nothing else....... > > yes, ok.....we are " that " ....even if we are not aware of It......even > if the ego-mind is dreaming to be " this are that... " > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > Choice ? Who is the chooser ? > > > > Identification ? Who is the identifier ? > > > > Awareness ? Who is aware ? > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific Standard > Time, > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone > > > > present to > > > > > make > > > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent > > witness > > > to > > > > the > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you > > think > > > > you would > > > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent > > witness > > > to > > > > the > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your > choice' > > to > > > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this your > > > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other choice....than to > > just > > > be > > > > Self..... > > > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to choose what > > is > > > chosen, > > > > since there is no volitional entity present to choose. The > human > > > mind/body/ego > > > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It simply > > > cannot make > > > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The choice > was > > > made as a part > > > > of the dream. > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > hi Phil, > > > > > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in identification > > with > > > body-mind-intellect........there is no free choice........ > > > > > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream-play " ....as > there > > is > > > in a dream during sleep...... > > > means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " > > > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... > > > > > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if there is > > > awareness.....or non-awareness > > > > > > if one write something with awareness.......there is no > > > choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... > > > if one write without awareness.....the words turn > around....nothing > > > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > > > > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Hi Werner, you write: " the world is the ego-mind " would say....the world appear because of the ego-mind..... and so, the world " look like " the consciousness of ego-mind but if " the world is the ego-mind " ......then why talking about " ego " - mind.......it could be : " the world is mind " ....? you write " It is neither a fiction nor real, it is just what it is: The content of consciousness " yes...ok, .....it's a " game " of mind......of a mind-consciousness but you can't imagine a " being outside mind " ....?..... as for example in meditation.....the world disappear in.....a thought only.....a dream.....an " unreal consciousness " ......what only an " ego- mind " could take for real.... you write: " no separation between the identifier and the identified " ...... why detecting " nonsense " in the words you are reading......is it not your own " nonsense " of ego-mind perception maybe? No need to read tonnes of books....indead.....an onze of practice is more than tonnes of theories.... for me this practice is meditation..... Regards and peace Marc > A good morning too, Dennis, > > Ok, lets see: > > The ego mind's perseption of the fiction 'world' > > 1) The ego mind does not perceive the world. The world is the ego > mind. > 2) It is neither a fiction nor real, it is jus what it is: The > content of consciousness. > > The ego/mind doesn't identify with anything - it is identification. > There is no separation between the identifier and the identified - it > is the same. > > Awareness is neither What is nor is it the Self - that is all total > nonsense which you have read somewhere and are now selling it > as " truth " . But ok, if for you awareness is just another word for > consciouness then you are awareness or consciousness. > > Forget " the nature of the Self " , that is just another crap you have > read somwhere. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > > Good morning Werner, > > > > the ego-mind has no choice....so there is no " chooser " in the ego- > > mind perception of the fiction called world > > > > the ego-mind make identification with body-mind- intellect.....thats > > the illusions....and dream....and the dream of " chooser " or " non- > > chooser " ....or whatever > > > > Awareness is what Is....constantly.....its the nature of > Self......of > > infinite, timeless, changless ....being > > > > we are " that " .....nature of Self......and nothing else....... > > > > yes, ok.....we are " that " ....even if we are not aware of > It......even > > if the ego-mind is dreaming to be " this are that... " > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > Choice ? Who is the chooser ? > > > > > > Identification ? Who is the identifier ? > > > > > > Awareness ? Who is aware ? > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific Standard > > Time, > > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were > anyone > > > > > present to > > > > > > make > > > > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent > > > witness > > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you > > > think > > > > > you would > > > > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent > > > witness > > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > > > > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your > > choice' > > > to > > > > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > > > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > > > > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this your > > > > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > > > > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other choice....than to > > > just > > > > be > > > > > Self..... > > > > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to choose > what > > > is > > > > chosen, > > > > > since there is no volitional entity present to choose. The > > human > > > > mind/body/ego > > > > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It simply > > > > cannot make > > > > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The choice > > was > > > > made as a part > > > > > of the dream. > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > hi Phil, > > > > > > > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in identification > > > with > > > > body-mind-intellect........there is no free choice........ > > > > > > > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream-play " ....as > > there > > > is > > > > in a dream during sleep...... > > > > means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " > > > > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... > > > > > > > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if there > is > > > > awareness.....or non-awareness > > > > > > > > if one write something with awareness.......there is no > > > > choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... > > > > if one write without awareness.....the words turn > > around....nothing > > > > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > > > > > > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Marc, Please see it very simple: What do you know of your ego/mind besides all that which is the content of your consciousness ? There are no two consciousnesses, one which reflects your ego/mind and the other which reflects the world. Therefore you must conclude that the world IS your ego/mind and all the rest of it - they are not separate. Ego, mind, thought, the world, they don't exist separately - they are all your consciousness and your are that consciousness. Why do you say it is a game of the mind, why this need to introduce a new definition " game " ? It just makes a simple thing móre complicated. Werner Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > Hi Werner, > > you write: > " the world is the ego-mind " > > would say....the world appear because of the ego-mind..... > and so, the world " look like " the consciousness of ego-mind > > but if " the world is the ego-mind " ......then why talking about " ego " - > mind.......it could be : " the world is mind " ....? > > you write > " It is neither a fiction nor real, it is just what it is: The content > of consciousness " > > yes...ok, .....it's a " game " of mind......of a mind-consciousness > > but you can't imagine a " being outside mind " ....?..... > as for example in meditation.....the world disappear in.....a thought > only.....a dream.....an " unreal consciousness " ......what only an " ego- > mind " could take for real.... > > you write: > " no separation between the identifier and the identified " ...... > > why detecting " nonsense " in the words you are reading......is it not > your own " nonsense " of ego-mind perception maybe? > > No need to read tonnes of books....indead.....an onze of practice is > more than tonnes of theories.... > > for me this practice is meditation..... > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > > A good morning too, Dennis, > > > > Ok, lets see: > > > > The ego mind's perseption of the fiction 'world' > > > > 1) The ego mind does not perceive the world. The world is the ego > > mind. > > 2) It is neither a fiction nor real, it is jus what it is: The > > content of consciousness. > > > > The ego/mind doesn't identify with anything - it is identification. > > There is no separation between the identifier and the identified - > it > > is the same. > > > > Awareness is neither What is nor is it the Self - that is all total > > nonsense which you have read somewhere and are now selling it > > as " truth " . But ok, if for you awareness is just another word for > > consciouness then you are awareness or consciousness. > > > > Forget " the nature of the Self " , that is just another crap you have > > read somwhere. > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Good morning Werner, > > > > > > the ego-mind has no choice....so there is no " chooser " in the ego- > > > mind perception of the fiction called world > > > > > > the ego-mind make identification with body-mind- > intellect.....thats > > > the illusions....and dream....and the dream of " chooser " or " non- > > > chooser " ....or whatever > > > > > > Awareness is what Is....constantly.....its the nature of > > Self......of > > > infinite, timeless, changless ....being > > > > > > we are " that " .....nature of Self......and nothing else....... > > > > > > yes, ok.....we are " that " ....even if we are not aware of > > It......even > > > if the ego-mind is dreaming to be " this are that... " > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > Choice ? Who is the chooser ? > > > > > > > > Identification ? Who is the identifier ? > > > > > > > > Awareness ? Who is aware ? > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific Standard > > > Time, > > > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were > > anyone > > > > > > present to > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser > present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent > > > > witness > > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > > > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't > you > > > > think > > > > > > you would > > > > > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > > > > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent > > > > witness > > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > > > > > > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your > > > choice' > > > > to > > > > > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > > > > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this > your > > > > > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > > > > > > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other choice....than > to > > > > just > > > > > be > > > > > > Self..... > > > > > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to choose > > what > > > > is > > > > > chosen, > > > > > > since there is no volitional entity present to choose. The > > > human > > > > > mind/body/ego > > > > > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It > simply > > > > > cannot make > > > > > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The > choice > > > was > > > > > made as a part > > > > > > of the dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in > identification > > > > with > > > > > body-mind-intellect........there is no free choice........ > > > > > > > > > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream- play " ....as > > > there > > > > is > > > > > in a dream during sleep...... > > > > > means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " > > > > > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... > > > > > > > > > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if there > > is > > > > > awareness.....or non-awareness > > > > > > > > > > if one write something with awareness.......there is no > > > > > choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... > > > > > if one write without awareness.....the words turn > > > around....nothing > > > > > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > > > > > > > > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > Hello Werner, yes....there are no " two consciousnesses " ..... the world reflects the ego/mind....and ego/mind reflects the world.... all this happen in one consciousness....at same time so when " your " ego/mind die....the " world " disappear too? or when the world end.....the ego/mind end too? ....this must be true....in this your pure logical point of view....is it not? if this is true....this your described ego/mind " consciousness " is limited by time and space......is it not? if it is limited by time and space......how could " it " ever " reflect " the real nature....means, the timeless and infinite nature.....? therefor....i talked about " mind/game " .....because everything concerning ego/mind (consciousness)....appear only to be true, stable....endless......but in reality.....it " come and go " .....it change all the time...... thats the nature of mind........ to change all the time i feel that this can't be the real nature of ourSelf..... Regards and peace Marc > Marc, > > Please see it very simple: > > What do you know of your ego/mind besides all that which is the > content of your consciousness ? There are no two consciousnesses, one > which reflects your ego/mind and the other which reflects the world. > > Therefore you must conclude that the world IS your ego/mind and all > the rest of it - they are not separate. > > Ego, mind, thought, the world, they don't exist separately - they are > all your consciousness and your are that consciousness. > > Why do you say it is a game of the mind, why this need to introduce a > new definition " game " ? It just makes a simple thing móre > complicated. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Werner, > > > > you write: > > " the world is the ego-mind " > > > > would say....the world appear because of the ego-mind..... > > and so, the world " look like " the consciousness of ego-mind > > > > but if " the world is the ego-mind " ......then why talking > about " ego " - > > mind.......it could be : " the world is mind " ....? > > > > you write > > " It is neither a fiction nor real, it is just what it is: The > content > > of consciousness " > > > > yes...ok, .....it's a " game " of mind......of a mind-consciousness > > > > but you can't imagine a " being outside mind " ....?..... > > as for example in meditation.....the world disappear in.....a > thought > > only.....a dream.....an " unreal consciousness " ......what only > an " ego- > > mind " could take for real.... > > > > you write: > > " no separation between the identifier and the identified " ...... > > > > why detecting " nonsense " in the words you are reading......is it > not > > your own " nonsense " of ego-mind perception maybe? > > > > No need to read tonnes of books....indead.....an onze of practice > is > > more than tonnes of theories.... > > > > for me this practice is meditation..... > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > A good morning too, Dennis, > > > > > > Ok, lets see: > > > > > > The ego mind's perseption of the fiction 'world' > > > > > > 1) The ego mind does not perceive the world. The world is the ego > > > mind. > > > 2) It is neither a fiction nor real, it is jus what it is: The > > > content of consciousness. > > > > > > The ego/mind doesn't identify with anything - it is > identification. > > > There is no separation between the identifier and the identified - > > > it > > > is the same. > > > > > > Awareness is neither What is nor is it the Self - that is all > total > > > nonsense which you have read somewhere and are now selling it > > > as " truth " . But ok, if for you awareness is just another word for > > > consciouness then you are awareness or consciousness. > > > > > > Forget " the nature of the Self " , that is just another crap you > have > > > read somwhere. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Good morning Werner, > > > > > > > > the ego-mind has no choice....so there is no " chooser " in the > ego- > > > > mind perception of the fiction called world > > > > > > > > the ego-mind make identification with body-mind- > > intellect.....thats > > > > the illusions....and dream....and the dream of " chooser " > or " non- > > > > chooser " ....or whatever > > > > > > > > Awareness is what Is....constantly.....its the nature of > > > Self......of > > > > infinite, timeless, changless ....being > > > > > > > > we are " that " .....nature of Self......and nothing else....... > > > > > > > > yes, ok.....we are " that " ....even if we are not aware of > > > It......even > > > > if the ego-mind is dreaming to be " this are that... " > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choice ? Who is the chooser ? > > > > > > > > > > Identification ? Who is the identifier ? > > > > > > > > > > Awareness ? Who is aware ? > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific > Standard > > > > Time, > > > > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were > > > anyone > > > > > > > present to > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser > > present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the > silent > > > > > witness > > > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > > > > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't > > you > > > > > think > > > > > > > you would > > > > > > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the > silent > > > > > witness > > > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your > > > > choice' > > > > > to > > > > > > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > > > > > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this > > your > > > > > > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other > choice....than > > to > > > > > just > > > > > > be > > > > > > > Self..... > > > > > > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to > choose > > > what > > > > > is > > > > > > chosen, > > > > > > > since there is no volitional entity present to choose. > The > > > > human > > > > > > mind/body/ego > > > > > > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It > > simply > > > > > > cannot make > > > > > > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The > > choice > > > > was > > > > > > made as a part > > > > > > > of the dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in > > identification > > > > > with > > > > > > body-mind-intellect........there is no free choice........ > > > > > > > > > > > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream- > play " ....as > > > > there > > > > > is > > > > > > in a dream during sleep...... > > > > > > means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " > > > > > > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... > > > > > > > > > > > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if > there > > > is > > > > > > awareness.....or non-awareness > > > > > > > > > > > > if one write something with awareness.......there is no > > > > > > choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... > > > > > > if one write without awareness.....the words turn > > > > around....nothing > > > > > > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > > > > > > > > > > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Marc, Since I have read you already since longer, I don't expect from you logic but lots of spiritual day-dreaming. Go ahead with your journey through time and space, find new worlds and universes, encounter incredible depths of miraculous insights til you finally realized the Divine Self and the dawning of a New Age. Good luck Werner You are my prejudices and I am your's. Werner Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > Hello Werner, > > yes....there are no " two consciousnesses " ..... > the world reflects the ego/mind....and ego/mind reflects the world.... > all this happen in one consciousness....at same time > > so when " your " ego/mind die....the " world " disappear too? > or when the world end.....the ego/mind end too? > > ...this must be true....in this your pure logical point of view....is > it not? > > if this is true....this your described ego/mind " consciousness " is > limited by time and space......is it not? > > if it is limited by time and space......how could " it " ever " reflect " > the real nature....means, the timeless and infinite nature.....? > > therefor....i talked about " mind/game " .....because everything > concerning ego/mind (consciousness)....appear only to be true, > stable....endless......but in reality.....it " come and go " .....it > change all the time...... > thats the nature of mind........ > to change all the time > > i feel that this can't be the real nature of ourSelf..... > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > > Marc, > > > > Please see it very simple: > > > > What do you know of your ego/mind besides all that which is the > > content of your consciousness ? There are no two consciousnesses, > one > > which reflects your ego/mind and the other which reflects the world. > > > > Therefore you must conclude that the world IS your ego/mind and all > > the rest of it - they are not separate. > > > > Ego, mind, thought, the world, they don't exist separately - they > are > > all your consciousness and your are that consciousness. > > > > Why do you say it is a game of the mind, why this need to introduce > a > > new definition " game " ? It just makes a simple thing móre > > complicated. > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Werner, > > > > > > you write: > > > " the world is the ego-mind " > > > > > > would say....the world appear because of the ego-mind..... > > > and so, the world " look like " the consciousness of ego-mind > > > > > > but if " the world is the ego-mind " ......then why talking > > about " ego " - > > > mind.......it could be : " the world is mind " ....? > > > > > > you write > > > " It is neither a fiction nor real, it is just what it is: The > > content > > > of consciousness " > > > > > > yes...ok, .....it's a " game " of mind......of a mind- consciousness > > > > > > but you can't imagine a " being outside mind " ....?..... > > > as for example in meditation.....the world disappear in.....a > > thought > > > only.....a dream.....an " unreal consciousness " ......what only > > an " ego- > > > mind " could take for real.... > > > > > > you write: > > > " no separation between the identifier and the identified " ...... > > > > > > why detecting " nonsense " in the words you are reading......is it > > not > > > your own " nonsense " of ego-mind perception maybe? > > > > > > No need to read tonnes of books....indead.....an onze of practice > > is > > > more than tonnes of theories.... > > > > > > for me this practice is meditation..... > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > A good morning too, Dennis, > > > > > > > > Ok, lets see: > > > > > > > > The ego mind's perseption of the fiction 'world' > > > > > > > > 1) The ego mind does not perceive the world. The world is the > ego > > > > mind. > > > > 2) It is neither a fiction nor real, it is jus what it is: The > > > > content of consciousness. > > > > > > > > The ego/mind doesn't identify with anything - it is > > identification. > > > > There is no separation between the identifier and the > identified - > > > > > it > > > > is the same. > > > > > > > > Awareness is neither What is nor is it the Self - that is all > > total > > > > nonsense which you have read somewhere and are now selling it > > > > as " truth " . But ok, if for you awareness is just another word > for > > > > consciouness then you are awareness or consciousness. > > > > > > > > Forget " the nature of the Self " , that is just another crap you > > have > > > > read somwhere. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Good morning Werner, > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind has no choice....so there is no " chooser " in the > > ego- > > > > > mind perception of the fiction called world > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind make identification with body-mind- > > > intellect.....thats > > > > > the illusions....and dream....and the dream of " chooser " > > or " non- > > > > > chooser " ....or whatever > > > > > > > > > > Awareness is what Is....constantly.....its the nature of > > > > Self......of > > > > > infinite, timeless, changless ....being > > > > > > > > > > we are " that " .....nature of Self......and nothing else....... > > > > > > > > > > yes, ok.....we are " that " ....even if we are not aware of > > > > It......even > > > > > if the ego-mind is dreaming to be " this are that... " > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choice ? Who is the chooser ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Identification ? Who is the identifier ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness ? Who is aware ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific > > Standard > > > > > Time, > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > present to > > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser > > > present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the > > silent > > > > > > witness > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > > > > > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, > don't > > > you > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > you would > > > > > > > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the > > silent > > > > > > witness > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words > else....than 'your > > > > > choice' > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > > > > > > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this > > > your > > > > > > > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other > > choice....than > > > to > > > > > > just > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > Self..... > > > > > > > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to > > choose > > > > what > > > > > > is > > > > > > > chosen, > > > > > > > > since there is no volitional entity present to choose. > > The > > > > > human > > > > > > > mind/body/ego > > > > > > > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It > > > simply > > > > > > > cannot make > > > > > > > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The > > > choice > > > > > was > > > > > > > made as a part > > > > > > > > of the dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in > > > identification > > > > > > with > > > > > > > body-mind-intellect........there is no free choice........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream- > > play " ....as > > > > > there > > > > > > is > > > > > > > in a dream during sleep...... > > > > > > > means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " > > > > > > > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if > > there > > > > is > > > > > > > awareness.....or non-awareness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if one write something with awareness.......there is no > > > > > > > choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... > > > > > > > if one write without awareness.....the words turn > > > > > around....nothing > > > > > > > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > .....this is the incredible depth of Werner.... you talk about " spiritual day-dreaming " .....yes, i think your consciousness could be described like this..... since i have read you.......i hardly can remember few deep words.....coming from somewhere ....which is not this your deep ego- mind.... don't worry about insights..... after all......nobody cares...... i remind you that you replied to a post of mine.....please remind yourself....to don't do it again.......it make not much sense..... Regards and peace Marc if you could meditate for some moments....you could discover more and more.......how deep is your ego-mind..... > Marc, > > Since I have read you already since longer, I don't expect from you > logic but lots of spiritual day-dreaming. > > Go ahead with your journey through time and space, find new worlds > and universes, encounter incredible depths of miraculous insights til > you finally realized the Divine Self and the dawning of a New Age. > Good luck > > Werner > > You are my prejudices and I am your's. > > Werner > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > > > Hello Werner, > > > > yes....there are no " two consciousnesses " ..... > > the world reflects the ego/mind....and ego/mind reflects the > world.... > > all this happen in one consciousness....at same time > > > > so when " your " ego/mind die....the " world " disappear too? > > or when the world end.....the ego/mind end too? > > > > ...this must be true....in this your pure logical point of > view....is > > it not? > > > > if this is true....this your described ego/mind " consciousness " is > > limited by time and space......is it not? > > > > if it is limited by time and space......how could " it " > ever " reflect " > > the real nature....means, the timeless and infinite nature.....? > > > > therefor....i talked about " mind/game " .....because everything > > concerning ego/mind (consciousness)....appear only to be true, > > stable....endless......but in reality.....it " come and go " .....it > > change all the time...... > > thats the nature of mind........ > > to change all the time > > > > i feel that this can't be the real nature of ourSelf..... > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > Marc, > > > > > > Please see it very simple: > > > > > > What do you know of your ego/mind besides all that which is the > > > content of your consciousness ? There are no two consciousnesses, > > one > > > which reflects your ego/mind and the other which reflects the > world. > > > > > > Therefore you must conclude that the world IS your ego/mind and > all > > > the rest of it - they are not separate. > > > > > > Ego, mind, thought, the world, they don't exist separately - they > > are > > > all your consciousness and your are that consciousness. > > > > > > Why do you say it is a game of the mind, why this need to > introduce > > a > > > new definition " game " ? It just makes a simple thing móre > > > complicated. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Werner, > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > " the world is the ego-mind " > > > > > > > > would say....the world appear because of the ego-mind..... > > > > and so, the world " look like " the consciousness of ego-mind > > > > > > > > but if " the world is the ego-mind " ......then why talking > > > about " ego " - > > > > mind.......it could be : " the world is mind " ....? > > > > > > > > you write > > > > " It is neither a fiction nor real, it is just what it is: The > > > content > > > > of consciousness " > > > > > > > > yes...ok, .....it's a " game " of mind......of a mind- > consciousness > > > > > > > > but you can't imagine a " being outside mind " ....?..... > > > > as for example in meditation.....the world disappear in.....a > > > thought > > > > only.....a dream.....an " unreal consciousness " ......what only > > > an " ego- > > > > mind " could take for real.... > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > " no separation between the identifier and the identified " ...... > > > > > > > > why detecting " nonsense " in the words you are reading......is > it > > > not > > > > your own " nonsense " of ego-mind perception maybe? > > > > > > > > No need to read tonnes of books....indead.....an onze of > practice > > > is > > > > more than tonnes of theories.... > > > > > > > > for me this practice is meditation..... > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A good morning too, Dennis, > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets see: > > > > > > > > > > The ego mind's perseption of the fiction 'world' > > > > > > > > > > 1) The ego mind does not perceive the world. The world is the > > ego > > > > > mind. > > > > > 2) It is neither a fiction nor real, it is jus what it is: > The > > > > > content of consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > The ego/mind doesn't identify with anything - it is > > > identification. > > > > > There is no separation between the identifier and the > > identified - > > > > > > > it > > > > > is the same. > > > > > > > > > > Awareness is neither What is nor is it the Self - that is all > > > total > > > > > nonsense which you have read somewhere and are now selling it > > > > > as " truth " . But ok, if for you awareness is just another word > > for > > > > > consciouness then you are awareness or consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Forget " the nature of the Self " , that is just another crap > you > > > have > > > > > read somwhere. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Good morning Werner, > > > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind has no choice....so there is no " chooser " in > the > > > ego- > > > > > > mind perception of the fiction called world > > > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind make identification with body-mind- > > > > intellect.....thats > > > > > > the illusions....and dream....and the dream of " chooser " > > > or " non- > > > > > > chooser " ....or whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness is what Is....constantly.....its the nature of > > > > > Self......of > > > > > > infinite, timeless, changless ....being > > > > > > > > > > > > we are " that " .....nature of Self......and nothing > else....... > > > > > > > > > > > > yes, ok.....we are " that " ....even if we are not aware of > > > > > It......even > > > > > > if the ego-mind is dreaming to be " this are that... " > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choice ? Who is the chooser ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Identification ? Who is the identifier ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness ? Who is aware ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific > > > Standard > > > > > > Time, > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there > were > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > > present to > > > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser > > > > present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the > > > silent > > > > > > > witness > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > > > > > > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, > > don't > > > > you > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > you would > > > > > > > > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the > > > silent > > > > > > > witness > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words > > else....than 'your > > > > > > choice' > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > > > > > > > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by > this > > > > your > > > > > > > > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other > > > choice....than > > > > to > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > Self..... > > > > > > > > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to > > > choose > > > > > what > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > chosen, > > > > > > > > > since there is no volitional entity present to > choose. > > > The > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > mind/body/ego > > > > > > > > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. > It > > > > simply > > > > > > > > cannot make > > > > > > > > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The > > > > choice > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > made as a part > > > > > > > > > of the dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in > > > > identification > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > body-mind-intellect........there is no free > choice........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream- > > > play " ....as > > > > > > there > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > in a dream during sleep...... > > > > > > > > means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " > > > > > > > > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if > > > there > > > > > is > > > > > > > > awareness.....or non-awareness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if one write something with awareness.......there is no > > > > > > > > choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... > > > > > > > > if one write without awareness.....the words turn > > > > > > around....nothing > > > > > > > > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I like you smileys, Marc They are a hopeful sign that one day you will leave all that laughable spirituality and get a simple man with hunour and common sense. Werner Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > wrote: > > > > ....this is the incredible depth of Werner.... > > you talk about " spiritual day-dreaming " .....yes, i think your > consciousness could be described like this..... > > since i have read you.......i hardly can remember few deep > words.....coming from somewhere ....which is not this your deep ego- > mind.... > > don't worry about insights..... > > after all......nobody cares...... > > i remind you that you replied to a post of mine.....please remind > yourself....to don't do it again.......it make not much sense..... > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > if you could meditate for some moments....you could discover more and > more.......how deep is your ego-mind..... > > > > Marc, > > > > Since I have read you already since longer, I don't expect from you > > logic but lots of spiritual day-dreaming. > > > > Go ahead with your journey through time and space, find new worlds > > and universes, encounter incredible depths of miraculous insights > til > > you finally realized the Divine Self and the dawning of a New Age. > > Good luck > > > > Werner > > > > You are my prejudices and I am your's. > > > > Werner > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Werner, > > > > > > yes....there are no " two consciousnesses " ..... > > > the world reflects the ego/mind....and ego/mind reflects the > > world.... > > > all this happen in one consciousness....at same time > > > > > > so when " your " ego/mind die....the " world " disappear too? > > > or when the world end.....the ego/mind end too? > > > > > > ...this must be true....in this your pure logical point of > > view....is > > > it not? > > > > > > if this is true....this your described ego/mind " consciousness " > is > > > limited by time and space......is it not? > > > > > > if it is limited by time and space......how could " it " > > ever " reflect " > > > the real nature....means, the timeless and infinite nature.....? > > > > > > therefor....i talked about " mind/game " .....because everything > > > concerning ego/mind (consciousness)....appear only to be true, > > > stable....endless......but in reality.....it " come and go " .....it > > > change all the time...... > > > thats the nature of mind........ > > > to change all the time > > > > > > i feel that this can't be the real nature of ourSelf..... > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc, > > > > > > > > Please see it very simple: > > > > > > > > What do you know of your ego/mind besides all that which is the > > > > content of your consciousness ? There are no two > consciousnesses, > > > one > > > > which reflects your ego/mind and the other which reflects the > > world. > > > > > > > > Therefore you must conclude that the world IS your ego/mind and > > all > > > > the rest of it - they are not separate. > > > > > > > > Ego, mind, thought, the world, they don't exist separately - > they > > > are > > > > all your consciousness and your are that consciousness. > > > > > > > > Why do you say it is a game of the mind, why this need to > > introduce > > > a > > > > new definition " game " ? It just makes a simple thing móre > > > > complicated. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Werner, > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > " the world is the ego-mind " > > > > > > > > > > would say....the world appear because of the ego-mind..... > > > > > and so, the world " look like " the consciousness of ego-mind > > > > > > > > > > but if " the world is the ego-mind " ......then why talking > > > > about " ego " - > > > > > mind.......it could be : " the world is mind " ....? > > > > > > > > > > you write > > > > > " It is neither a fiction nor real, it is just what it is: The > > > > content > > > > > of consciousness " > > > > > > > > > > yes...ok, .....it's a " game " of mind......of a mind- > > consciousness > > > > > > > > > > but you can't imagine a " being outside mind " ....?..... > > > > > as for example in meditation.....the world disappear in.....a > > > > thought > > > > > only.....a dream.....an " unreal consciousness " ......what only > > > > an " ego- > > > > > mind " could take for real.... > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > " no separation between the identifier and the > identified " ...... > > > > > > > > > > why detecting " nonsense " in the words you are reading......is > > it > > > > not > > > > > your own " nonsense " of ego-mind perception maybe? > > > > > > > > > > No need to read tonnes of books....indead.....an onze of > > practice > > > > is > > > > > more than tonnes of theories.... > > > > > > > > > > for me this practice is meditation..... > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A good morning too, Dennis, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets see: > > > > > > > > > > > > The ego mind's perseption of the fiction 'world' > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) The ego mind does not perceive the world. The world is > the > > > ego > > > > > > mind. > > > > > > 2) It is neither a fiction nor real, it is jus what it is: > > The > > > > > > content of consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > The ego/mind doesn't identify with anything - it is > > > > identification. > > > > > > There is no separation between the identifier and the > > > identified - > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > is the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness is neither What is nor is it the Self - that is > all > > > > total > > > > > > nonsense which you have read somewhere and are now selling > it > > > > > > as " truth " . But ok, if for you awareness is just another > word > > > for > > > > > > consciouness then you are awareness or consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > Forget " the nature of the Self " , that is just another crap > > you > > > > have > > > > > > read somwhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good morning Werner, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind has no choice....so there is no " chooser " in > > the > > > > ego- > > > > > > > mind perception of the fiction called world > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind make identification with body-mind- > > > > > intellect.....thats > > > > > > > the illusions....and dream....and the dream of " chooser " > > > > or " non- > > > > > > > chooser " ....or whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness is what Is....constantly.....its the nature of > > > > > > Self......of > > > > > > > infinite, timeless, changless ....being > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we are " that " .....nature of Self......and nothing > > else....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes, ok.....we are " that " ....even if we are not aware of > > > > > > It......even > > > > > > > if the ego-mind is dreaming to be " this are that... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choice ? Who is the chooser ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Identification ? Who is the identifier ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness ? Who is aware ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific > > > > Standard > > > > > > > Time, > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there > > were > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > > > present to > > > > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a > chooser > > > > > present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the > > > > silent > > > > > > > > witness > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > > > > > > > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, > > > don't > > > > > you > > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > > you would > > > > > > > > > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online > recently > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the > > > > silent > > > > > > > > witness > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words > > > else....than 'your > > > > > > > choice' > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > > > > > > > > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by > > this > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other > > > > choice....than > > > > > to > > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > Self..... > > > > > > > > > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to > > > > choose > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > chosen, > > > > > > > > > > since there is no volitional entity present to > > choose. > > > > The > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > mind/body/ego > > > > > > > > > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. > > It > > > > > simply > > > > > > > > > cannot make > > > > > > > > > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. > The > > > > > choice > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > made as a part > > > > > > > > > > of the dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in > > > > > identification > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > body-mind-intellect........there is no free > > choice........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream- > > > > play " ....as > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > in a dream during sleep...... > > > > > > > > > means, also in dream during sleep....there is > no " real " > > > > > > > > > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced > to........if > > > > there > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > awareness.....or non-awareness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if one write something with awareness.......there is > no > > > > > > > > > choice.....the words turn all around " that " > truth....... > > > > > > > > > if one write without awareness.....the words turn > > > > > > > around....nothing > > > > > > > > > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > i am ......whatever you " see " or like to " see " or expect to " see " ....or....... if you could see the " divine Self " ....that you were talking about before........maybe you could see so too.....how endless meaningless all this our words are....... nothing but words......trying to reflect the no-meaning of any theories, concepts, " enlightenment " ....and so on.... the truth is but ONE...... nothing to share concerning the truth.... fools only are trying to share the " truth " ..... your distance to this foolish attitudes are a good sign.....indead....... i have no idea what this " man with honor and common sense " would be........and i have to admit......that i don't care about..... Regards and peace Marc > I like you smileys, Marc > > They are a hopeful sign that one day you will leave all that > laughable spirituality and get a simple man with hunour and common > sense. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > ....this is the incredible depth of Werner.... > > > > you talk about " spiritual day-dreaming " .....yes, i think your > > consciousness could be described like this..... > > > > since i have read you.......i hardly can remember few deep > > words.....coming from somewhere ....which is not this your deep ego- > > mind.... > > > > don't worry about insights..... > > > > after all......nobody cares...... > > > > i remind you that you replied to a post of mine.....please remind > > yourself....to don't do it again.......it make not much sense..... > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > if you could meditate for some moments....you could discover more > and > > more.......how deep is your ego-mind..... > > > > > > > Marc, > > > > > > Since I have read you already since longer, I don't expect from > you > > > logic but lots of spiritual day-dreaming. > > > > > > Go ahead with your journey through time and space, find new > worlds > > > and universes, encounter incredible depths of miraculous insights > > til > > > you finally realized the Divine Self and the dawning of a New > Age. > > > Good luck > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > You are my prejudices and I am your's. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello Werner, > > > > > > > > yes....there are no " two consciousnesses " ..... > > > > the world reflects the ego/mind....and ego/mind reflects the > > > world.... > > > > all this happen in one consciousness....at same time > > > > > > > > so when " your " ego/mind die....the " world " disappear too? > > > > or when the world end.....the ego/mind end too? > > > > > > > > ...this must be true....in this your pure logical point of > > > view....is > > > > it not? > > > > > > > > if this is true....this your described ego/mind " consciousness " > > is > > > > limited by time and space......is it not? > > > > > > > > if it is limited by time and space......how could " it " > > > ever " reflect " > > > > the real nature....means, the timeless and infinite nature.....? > > > > > > > > therefor....i talked about " mind/game " .....because everything > > > > concerning ego/mind (consciousness)....appear only to be true, > > > > stable....endless......but in reality.....it " come and > go " .....it > > > > change all the time...... > > > > thats the nature of mind........ > > > > to change all the time > > > > > > > > i feel that this can't be the real nature of ourSelf..... > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc, > > > > > > > > > > Please see it very simple: > > > > > > > > > > What do you know of your ego/mind besides all that which is > the > > > > > content of your consciousness ? There are no two > > consciousnesses, > > > > one > > > > > which reflects your ego/mind and the other which reflects the > > > world. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore you must conclude that the world IS your ego/mind > and > > > all > > > > > the rest of it - they are not separate. > > > > > > > > > > Ego, mind, thought, the world, they don't exist separately - > > they > > > > are > > > > > all your consciousness and your are that consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > Why do you say it is a game of the mind, why this need to > > > introduce > > > > a > > > > > new definition " game " ? It just makes a simple thing móre > > > > > complicated. > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Werner, > > > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > " the world is the ego-mind " > > > > > > > > > > > > would say....the world appear because of the ego-mind..... > > > > > > and so, the world " look like " the consciousness of ego- mind > > > > > > > > > > > > but if " the world is the ego-mind " ......then why talking > > > > > about " ego " - > > > > > > mind.......it could be : " the world is mind " ....? > > > > > > > > > > > > you write > > > > > > " It is neither a fiction nor real, it is just what it is: > The > > > > > content > > > > > > of consciousness " > > > > > > > > > > > > yes...ok, .....it's a " game " of mind......of a mind- > > > consciousness > > > > > > > > > > > > but you can't imagine a " being outside mind " ....?..... > > > > > > as for example in meditation.....the world disappear > in.....a > > > > > thought > > > > > > only.....a dream.....an " unreal consciousness " ......what > only > > > > > an " ego- > > > > > > mind " could take for real.... > > > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > " no separation between the identifier and the > > identified " ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > why detecting " nonsense " in the words you are > reading......is > > > it > > > > > not > > > > > > your own " nonsense " of ego-mind perception maybe? > > > > > > > > > > > > No need to read tonnes of books....indead.....an onze of > > > practice > > > > > is > > > > > > more than tonnes of theories.... > > > > > > > > > > > > for me this practice is meditation..... > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A good morning too, Dennis, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, lets see: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The ego mind's perseption of the fiction 'world' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) The ego mind does not perceive the world. The world is > > the > > > > ego > > > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > 2) It is neither a fiction nor real, it is jus what it > is: > > > The > > > > > > > content of consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The ego/mind doesn't identify with anything - it is > > > > > identification. > > > > > > > There is no separation between the identifier and the > > > > identified - > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > is the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness is neither What is nor is it the Self - that is > > all > > > > > total > > > > > > > nonsense which you have read somewhere and are now > selling > > it > > > > > > > as " truth " . But ok, if for you awareness is just another > > word > > > > for > > > > > > > consciouness then you are awareness or consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forget " the nature of the Self " , that is just another > crap > > > you > > > > > have > > > > > > > read somwhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " > > > > > <wwoehr@p...> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good morning Werner, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind has no choice....so there is no " chooser " > in > > > the > > > > > ego- > > > > > > > > mind perception of the fiction called world > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the ego-mind make identification with body-mind- > > > > > > intellect.....thats > > > > > > > > the illusions....and dream....and the dream > of " chooser " > > > > > or " non- > > > > > > > > chooser " ....or whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness is what Is....constantly.....its the nature > of > > > > > > > Self......of > > > > > > > > infinite, timeless, changless ....being > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we are " that " .....nature of Self......and nothing > > > else....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes, ok.....we are " that " ....even if we are not aware > of > > > > > > > It......even > > > > > > > > if the ego-mind is dreaming to be " this are that... " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choice ? Who is the chooser ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Identification ? Who is the identifier ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Awareness ? Who is aware ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > > > > > > > > > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific > > > > > Standard > > > > > > > > Time, > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if > there > > > were > > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > > > > present to > > > > > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a > > chooser > > > > > > present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are you present? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is > the > > > > > silent > > > > > > > > > witness > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your > dream, > > > > don't > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > > > you would > > > > > > > > > > > > have done so by now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online > > recently > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you write: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is > the > > > > > silent > > > > > > > > > witness > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words > > > > else....than 'your > > > > > > > > choice' > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > > > > > > > > > > > the 'illusory'....whatever > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible > by > > > this > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other > > > > > choice....than > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > Self..... > > > > > > > > > > > nothing realy else existing.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but > to > > > > > choose > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > chosen, > > > > > > > > > > > since there is no volitional entity present to > > > choose. > > > > > The > > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > > mind/body/ego > > > > > > > > > > > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you > prefer. > > > It > > > > > > simply > > > > > > > > > > cannot make > > > > > > > > > > > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. > > The > > > > > > choice > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > made as a part > > > > > > > > > > > of the dream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in > > > > > > identification > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > body-mind-intellect........there is no free > > > choice........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream- > > > > > play " ....as > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > in a dream during sleep...... > > > > > > > > > > means, also in dream during sleep....there is > > no " real " > > > > > > > > > > choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly > about....... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced > > to........if > > > > > there > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > awareness.....or non-awareness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if one write something with awareness.......there > is > > no > > > > > > > > > > choice.....the words turn all around " that " > > truth....... > > > > > > > > > > if one write without awareness.....the words turn > > > > > > > > around....nothing > > > > > > > > > > but " fiction " (illusion)..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards and peace > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 In a message dated 11/22/2005 3:08:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/21/2005 11:47:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > That would be a wise choice to make if there were anyone > present to > > make > > > such a choice to " look " . I don't see a chooser present. > > > > > > Phil > > > > lol..... > > > > the one " who " could choose....is yourself..... > > > > are you present? > > > > Regards and peace > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > ::::: checking....checking :::: > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to > the > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. > > If 'You' could choose to awaken from your dream, don't you think > you would > > have done so by now? > > > > Phil > > Hi Phil, > > sorry for the late answer.....wasn't online recently > > you write: > > " ::::: checking....checking :::: > > Yes, Self is present, but that is all. It is the silent witness to > the > > illusory choosing going on in the human mind. " > > ...what are this 'your' awaken words else....than 'your choice' to > see the dream as dream.....to be witness to > the 'illusory'....whatever > > the see the dream as dream....is only possible by this your > described 'choice'.....or 'awareness' > > ...ok, maybe the present Self has no other choice....than to just be > Self..... > nothing realy else existing.... > > Regards and peace > > Marc > > > > > > The present self (human) has no other choice but to choose what is chosen, > since there is no volitional entity present to choose. The human mind/body/ego > is a dream character, or a mechanism if you prefer. It simply cannot make > choices. My typing this was not 'my' free choice. The choice was made as a part > of the dream. > > Phil hi Phil, yes....sure....in being in ego-mind.....means in identification with body-mind-intellect........there is no free choice........ there is a much free choice in this Whole " dream-play " ....as there is in a dream during sleep...... means, also in dream during sleep....there is no " real " choice.....of " what " the dream is exactly about....... maybe the free " choice " is as much reduced to........if there is awareness.....or non-awareness if one write something with awareness.......there is no choice.....the words turn all around " that " truth....... if one write without awareness.....the words turn around....nothing but " fiction " (illusion)..... wish you to keep on being aware of Self..... Regards and peace Marc Yes, as awareness changes, the outpicturing of that awareness, in the form of a dreamscape, brings about different scenarios with different inevitable choices. If this is known to be so, there is much peace. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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