Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Ramanama: imagine that one took even the first step towards divesting himself of notions of doership, of being a person who accomplishes things. he would have opened in himself the unlimited potential, the creative freedom to build a thousand houses and have no concern for an imaginary future. P: Building is the arrogance of illusion. What could change in the immutable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 appearances are not real. is the yogi in a cave sitting, doing nothing, or is he supremely active? perfection in action is the realization that the means are themselves the end. that is creative freedom. Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@e...> wrote: > > Ramanama: imagine that one took even the first step towards divesting > himself of notions > of doership, > of being a person who accomplishes things. he would have opened in > himself the > unlimited potential, the creative freedom to build a thousand houses > and have no > concern > for an imaginary future. > > P: Building is the arrogance of illusion. > What could change in the immutable? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 This is Excellent, Pete! .... Dreams vanish... as you soon as the Dreamer realizes itself! As soon as it sees... it was creating massive mansions... out of [that which in not even] ...Thin Air! Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@e...> wrote: > > Imagine, if you will, that you owned a magical > piece of land, which had been cursed by a > Green Peace genii. And this piece of ground > wouldn't tolerate any house. You could build on > it, and everything would look normal as long as > you keep on working, but the minute you stop > building, everything will vanish, as if by magic. > > So the only solution is to keep on building without > respite, and making the edifice taller and taller, but > knowing that it's an exercise in futility, because all > will vanish as soon as you stop. > > Many would think no one would want such piece > of land, but we all stand on one, It's our basic > ground. A ground on which, we are constantly > trying to build a separate self. A self which vanish > the moment we stop adding thoughts, memories, > emotions and activities to it. Most try to ignore > this vanishing act. They fear the insight that the house > is just a mental house of cards. They pretend the > house is really there, and that the 'absence of house' > they feel when stopping, it is not what they really are. > > But, that is exactly, the Basic Ground, that basic > pervasive absence of all you can know. And if you > don't like it, keep busy, keep thinking, keep building, > but know, it's a case of, " you and I, building castles in > the sky. " > > Pete > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 ramanama06, " perfection in action is the realization that the means are themselves the end. that is creative freedom. " The soul has action, God is the act; drop one, let the other happen. Tat Tvam Asi!.. Siddhananda Devi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Siddhananda Devi " <siddhananda_devi> wrote: > > ramanama06, " perfection in action is the realization that the means are > themselves the end. that is creative freedom. " there is no need of creating your own freedom. One who acts in God according to His desire experiences pure liberation in the soul. He is in salvation, which implies he's preserved by God. So action in perfection is the means to an end. which is perfect liberation, b/c the Source of Perfection is pleased. That's why you are judged by your actions not words. You may say you have faith in God, but i will show you my faith by my actions. For your actions are the proof of your love for Me. That is the Word of the Holy Spirit. You must recognize Holy and not Holy. perfect is holiness. That is God's promise for these latter days that He will send His son who will build a 'highway to holiness.' written by Isaiah over 2500 years ago and now coming to fruition. lol there you go the whitehorserides again lol > > The soul has action, God is the act; drop one, let the other happen. > > Tat Tvam Asi!.. > Siddhananda Devi > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 In a message dated 11/29/2005 11:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Pete S <pedsie4 Basic Ground Imagine, if you will, that you owned a magical piece of land, which had been cursed by a Green Peace genii. And this piece of ground wouldn't tolerate any house. You could build on it, and everything would look normal as long as you keep on working, but the minute you stop building, everything will vanish, as if by magic. So the only solution is to keep on building without respite, and making the edifice taller and taller, but knowing that it's an exercise in futility, because all will vanish as soon as you stop. Many would think no one would want such piece of land, but we all stand on one, It's our basic ground. A ground on which, we are constantly trying to build a separate self. A self which vanish the moment we stop adding thoughts, memories, emotions and activities to it. Most try to ignore this vanishing act. They fear the insight that the house is just a mental house of cards. They pretend the house is really there, and that the 'absence of house' they feel when stopping, it is not what they really are. But, that is exactly, the Basic Ground, that basic pervasive absence of all you can know. And if you don't like it, keep busy, keep thinking, keep building, but know, it's a case of, " you and I, building castles in the sky. " Pete I llllike it! Thanks, Pete. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 In a message dated 11/29/2005 11:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Pete S <pedsie4 Basic Ground Bigwaaba: yes, the " absence of the house " is still a subtle object which appears in awareness, is still the play consciousness. Even the absence is perceived by this that i am, which never changes, never goes anywhere. Obviously, as you say, if consciousness is ignorant of itself it will continue to build objects of any kind to identify itself with, but even the most ignorant, at the moment of death, will come to the recognition of the self. and...it is NOT necessary to wait for the death of this body or this ghost called ego! the green peace genii love P; Why call it 'I am' Is not this name another room in the phantom house? And if no thing exist but the absence of the house, who could be there to recognize any absence at the moment of death? Maybe death is just another event of the illusion; The ending of one dream and the beginning of another. I don't see it as an awakening. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 - ADHHUB Nisargadatta Tuesday, November 29, 2005 11:56 PM Re: Basic Ground In a message dated 11/29/2005 11:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Pete S <pedsie4 Basic Ground Imagine, if you will, that you owned a magical piece of land, which had been cursed by a Green Peace genii. And this piece of ground wouldn't tolerate any house. You could build on it, and everything would look normal as long as you keep on working, but the minute you stop building, everything will vanish, as if by magic. So the only solution is to keep on building without respite, and making the edifice taller and taller, but knowing that it's an exercise in futility, because all will vanish as soon as you stop. Many would think no one would want such piece of land, but we all stand on one, It's our basic ground. A ground on which, we are constantly trying to build a separate self. A self which vanish the moment we stop adding thoughts, memories, emotions and activities to it. Most try to ignore this vanishing act. They fear the insight that the house is just a mental house of cards. They pretend the house is really there, and that the 'absence of house' they feel when stopping, it is not what they really are. But, that is exactly, the Basic Ground, that basic pervasive absence of all you can know. And if you don't like it, keep busy, keep thinking, keep building, but know, it's a case of, " you and I, building castles in the sky. " Pete I llllike it! Thanks, Pete. Phil Or 'a house of cards'.....which card are we dealing ourselves and others? Ana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 so happy for you phil! you don't need to die at all!! Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/29/2005 11:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Pete S <pedsie4@e...> > Basic Ground > > Bigwaaba: yes, the " absence of the house " is still a subtle object which > appears in awareness, is still the play consciousness. Even the > absence is perceived by this that i am, which never changes, never > goes anywhere. Obviously, as you say, if consciousness is ignorant of > itself it will continue to build objects of any kind to identify > itself with, but even the most ignorant, at the moment of death, will > come to the recognition of the self. and...it is NOT necessary to > wait for the death of this body or this ghost called ego! > the green peace genii > love > > P; Why call it 'I am' Is not this name another > room in the phantom house? And if no thing exist > but the absence of the house, who could be there > to recognize any absence at the moment of death? > > > > > Maybe death is just another event of the illusion; The ending of one dream > and the beginning of another. I don't see it as an awakening. > > Phil > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 dear P. the same one that sees the presence of the house sees the absence too. this one, when it refers to itself, calls it " i " and obviously it is, so...I AM. thank you waaba Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@e...> wrote: > > Bigwaaba: yes, the " absence of the house " is still a subtle object which > appears in awareness, is still the play consciousness. Even the > absence is perceived by this that i am, which never changes, never > goes anywhere. Obviously, as you say, if consciousness is ignorant of > itself it will continue to build objects of any kind to identify > itself with, but even the most ignorant, at the moment of death, will > come to the recognition of the self. and...it is NOT necessary to > wait for the death of this body or this ghost called ego! > the green peace genii > love > > P; Why call it 'I am' Is not this name another > room in the phantom house? And if no thing exist > but the absence of the house, who could be there > to recognize any absence at the moment of death? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: if the ego-mind is already dead.....there is no change if one " die " or not.....but why not staying here....?....it make no difference, indead > > so happy for you phil! you don't need to die at all!! > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 11/29/2005 11:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > Pete S <pedsie4@e...> > > Basic Ground > > > > Bigwaaba: yes, the " absence of the house " is still a subtle object > which > > appears in awareness, is still the play consciousness. Even the > > absence is perceived by this that i am, which never changes, never > > goes anywhere. Obviously, as you say, if consciousness is ignorant > of > > itself it will continue to build objects of any kind to identify > > itself with, but even the most ignorant, at the moment of death, > will > > come to the recognition of the self. and...it is NOT necessary to > > wait for the death of this body or this ghost called ego! > > the green peace genii > > love > > > > P; Why call it 'I am' Is not this name another > > room in the phantom house? And if no thing exist > > but the absence of the house, who could be there > > to recognize any absence at the moment of death? > > > > > > > > > > Maybe death is just another event of the illusion; The ending of > one dream > > and the beginning of another. I don't see it as an awakening. > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/29/2005 11:50:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > Pete S <pedsie4@e...> > Basic Ground > > Bigwaaba: yes, the " absence of the house " is still a subtle object which > appears in awareness, is still the play consciousness. Even the > absence is perceived by this that i am, which never changes, never > goes anywhere. Obviously, as you say, if consciousness is ignorant of > itself it will continue to build objects of any kind to identify > itself with, but even the most ignorant, at the moment of death, will > come to the recognition of the self. and...it is NOT necessary to > wait for the death of this body or this ghost called ego! > the green peace genii > love > > P; Why call it 'I am' Is not this name another > room in the phantom house? And if no thing exist > but the absence of the house, who could be there > to recognize any absence at the moment of death? > > > > > Maybe death is just another event of the illusion; The ending of one dream > and the beginning of another. I don't see it as an awakening. > > Phil > > God says by the mouth of the the Holy Prophets, that when you wake up to Truth, and realize the self it's like waking up from a nighmare or dream, at which point you are as if born again and the transition is but in thought and your actions may not change so much, but your perception becomes whole. David the psalmist, God's beloved and begotten son anointed and in with a perect heart, has written of such. Open to the center of your Bible and read of a heart of love. How can anyone say that the heart of David is not in love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@e...> wrote: > > Imagine, if you will, that you owned a magical > piece of land, which had been cursed by a > Green Peace genii. And this piece of ground > wouldn't tolerate any house. You could build on > it, and everything would look normal as long as > you keep on working, but the minute you stop > building, everything will vanish, as if by magic. > > So the only solution is to keep on building without > respite, and making the edifice taller and taller, but > knowing that it's an exercise in futility, because all > will vanish as soon as you stop. > > Many would think no one would want such piece > of land, Maybe, in reality too... Nobody really 'wants' such a 'land'! Maybe, that's why we keep dreaming of being somewhere else! .... Maybe, that's why... we keep dreaming of... 'being somebody else'! > but we all stand on one, It's our basic > ground. A ground on which, we are constantly > trying to build a separate self. A self which vanish > the moment we stop adding thoughts, memories, > emotions and activities to it. Most try to ignore > this vanishing act. They fear the insight that the house > is just a mental house of cards. They pretend the > house is really there, and that the 'absence of house' > they feel when stopping, it is not what they really are. > > But, that is exactly, the Basic Ground, that basic > pervasive absence of all you can know. And if you > don't like it, keep busy, keep thinking, keep building, > but know, it's a case of, " you and I, building castles in > the sky. " > > Pete > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 But, that is exactly, the Basic Ground, that basic pervasive absence of all you can know. >>> The first time I read this post I skipped over the line, " ...that basic pervasive absence of all you can know, " all too quickly. the pervasive absense of all you can know... " pervasive absence " is clear... simple awareness really. " absence of all you know " makes sense well enough... the knowing is just the jumble in the way of simple awareness... awareness is a *seeing through*... that is its nature... it doesn't matter to awareness whether there is a jumble there or not. But " absence of all you *can* know " ... that takes it another step. As if to squeeze the last little drop out of the DESIRE TO BE. The " castle-building " doesn't really have to end... it doesn't matter at all. Being will spew its spurious effusions of selfness every which-windwardly way... and yet it must ultimately know (or must it?) that its emptiness is the mulling of silence... for in the end, always, silence stares back in the face of any folly, and the meagerness of being is dwarfted in the vastness. Bill NondualitySalon , Pete S <pedsie4@e...> wrote: > > Imagine, if you will, that you owned a magical > piece of land, which had been cursed by a > Green Peace genii. And this piece of ground > wouldn't tolerate any house. You could build on > it, and everything would look normal as long as > you keep on working, but the minute you stop > building, everything will vanish, as if by magic. > > So the only solution is to keep on building without > respite, and making the edifice taller and taller, but > knowing that it's an exercise in futility, because all > will vanish as soon as you stop. > > Many would think no one would want such piece > of land, but we all stand on one, It's our basic > ground. A ground on which, we are constantly > trying to build a separate self. A self which vanish > the moment we stop adding thoughts, memories, > emotions and activities to it. Most try to ignore > this vanishing act. They fear the insight that the house > is just a mental house of cards. They pretend the > house is really there, and that the 'absence of house' > they feel when stopping, it is not what they really are. > > But, that is exactly, the Basic Ground, that basic > pervasive absence of all you can know. And if you > don't like it, keep busy, keep thinking, keep building, > but know, it's a case of, " you and I, building castles in > the sky. " > > Pete > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 On Dec 3, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Nisargadatta wrote: >>> It's true that castle building need not end, >>> and doesn't, anyway. What ends is the taking >>> of castles made of mental cards for ourselves. >>> What ends is the feeling of being solid, like a >>> chunk of lead sinking in an ocean of otherness. >>> That feeling is replaced by the feeling of being >>> ice floating in an ocean of selfhood. That sense >>> that there is no where to sink or vanish that it >>> wouldn't be self, that even death is Self. >> >> Yes... well said indeed. And the ice is ever-melting! >> >> re: What ends is the taking of castles made of >> mental cards for ourselves. >> >> There can be a lot of flotsam in the " sea of self " ... >> but it doesn't matter... it is no longer a " fly in >> the ointment " because it is *seen through*... as if >> somehow transparent. >> >> That sea you mention is awareness itself, and as such >> " sees through " because whatever is in it is *of* it... >> it is not that " we " see through, but that awareness >> does... and the distinction, awareness/we gets lost >> because whatever silly notions were deemed " us " have >> been " seen through " , are seen as merely flotsam... >> >> it is as if the entire " sea " is both the eye that sees >> and what is seen... >> >> It is really quite fun! >> >> Bill Hi Bill, It's more fun, if we give up the temptation to name it awareness, why name it at all, except to hold on to identity? Below ( in part) is something Kip contributed to NDP, written by a guy named Levi. I'm sure you remember Kip ( he went Psychological, and hangs around Lacanians lists nowadays) ) I think you and Werner, at least, will find what Levi wrote of some significance: When Frege defines the Zero as the number that is not identical to itself, he is indicating this structure and is able to generate number on the basis of this. When Miller, in his article " Suture " , picks up the empty set as a way of defining the subject, what is important here is this structure of negation or of not-being-identical-with itself. If this structure is important, then this is because it formulates the logic of identification. Insofar as the subject is not identical to itself it is led to identity with a master-signifier or suture itself to a signifying chain so as to give itself content or being. But it is never able to fully attach itself to this chain as it's not identical to itself. This establishes the metonymous nature of identity where the subject displaces itself from signifier to signifier trying to produce a content or being for itself. What Miller does not say (or Lacan) is that the subject can simply rest in being the void or a nothing, that it can halt this sliding or cease drawing boundaries (an identification is also a drawing of boundaries or distinctions). It strikes me that this is a significant difference between the Buddhist conception of abolition of self and the Lacanian conception of the subject as a lack perpetually striving to fill its lack. The former invites a return into the ground of the undifferentiated, whereas the latter understands negativity to always be determinate and to contain within itself a sort of perpetual unrest that constantly drives it to new identifications. The number-not-identical-to-itself, from a psychoanalytic point of view, could thus be thought as a sort of perpetual motion machine. Levi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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