Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 In a message dated 12/17/2005 2:30:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from desire. A > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and falling > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. This results > in a state of peace. > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can fulfill > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > Phil > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call psychological time. al. It can be noticed that dualistic happiness can never be accomplished in the long run. As soon as a desire is fulfilled, the mind 'normalizes' to this state and begins the process again with a new desire, since the mind creates the duality of happy/unhappy to begin with and so continues to create new ones regardless of how many desires are fulfilled. This continual search for dualistic fulfillment keeps the mind engaged in the battle to improve it's situation. The thoughts will never be controlled as long as it's believed that this will work someday. When this is clearly seen, the thoughts are calmed and we give up trying to get the world to make us happy and we seek nondualistic joy, which is not dependent upon what occurs in the world. This surrender is, in itself, a great source of peace. Now, the mind can be focussed on the longing for Truth/God, which was always the source of desire to begin with. Then it's necessary to end the questioning, since this is just the mind seeking fulfillment once again in the form of nondualistic joy. Again, the thoughts cannot be controlled. Rather, the questions are asked until there are no more questions, and the mind once again settles in peace. The mind is the tool of it's own destruction. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u Re: Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:37 AM Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from desire. A > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and falling > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. This results > in a state of peace. > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can fulfill > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > Phil > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call psychological time. al. My beloved al, Desire is all there is. Thank on that for a few minutes. Meditate on the desire. See how it is the next moment and the next. I AM is desire itself. Ana -------------------- Tis not, dear Ana. Desire is a human delusion sourced in the confusion of separateness; incompleteness. The entire dream is sourced by the illusion of unwholeness. Wholeness cannot create a dream of something. I AM is wholeness itself. Wholeness lacks nothing; desires nothing; IS everything. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions AL: When desire operates in harmony with action and being in the moment, then there is flow. But when desire creates 1001 thoughts about the future, then that will create waiting and/or stress. It seems that the intellect CANNOT desire what is now, and instead is compelled to always try to run away from the now. Phil: If what IS now is what is desired, then it's no longer a desire, eh? Desire is always something that will occur in the future. The mind is in the business of trying to fulfill future desires. AL: That's why the intellect becomes restless or bored when not occupied with some activity that makes it forget its own sense of time. Phil: It's not really about the mind's sense of time. The mind becomes restless because it believes it must get on with the work of fulfilling desires and avoiding misery. This, of course, is the source of misery, since it can never really succeed. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u Re: Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Saturday, December 17, 2005 4:18 AM Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:37 AM > Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from > desire. A > > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and > falling > > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. > This results > > in a state of peace. > > > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can > fulfill > > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > > > Phil > > > > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire > is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present > moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call > psychological time. > > al. > > > My beloved al, > > Desire is all there is. Thank on that for a few minutes. Meditate on the desire. See how it is the next moment and the next. > > I AM is desire itself. > > Ana > . When desire operates in harmony with action and being in the moment, then there is flow. But when desire creates 1001 thoughts about the future, then that will create waiting and/or stress. It seems that the intellect CANNOT desire what is now, and instead is compelled to always try to run away from the now. That's why the intellect becomes restless or bored when not occupied with some activity that makes it forget its own sense of time. al. Perhaps the natural progression of life needs to be reviewed: Life begins with desire, the desire of One to know Two, and so Soul formed from Spirit of One descends into human form and begins his/her ascent in the desire to return to One. The method is Love, the return is to Love for the sake of Love, Love moves the intellect through all feelings and senses for the experience of Two in Love with One. Ana -------------- In my perception, life doesn't begin with the desire of One to know two, but rather the potentiality to know Self. The eye cannot see the eye, and so there must be an 'other'. It is from the perspective of the illusion of otherness that the One can look back upon itself. Is that a possibility? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > in your own mail you have already labelled Tolle's teachings as > " sincere and certainly correct " !!! so, which game are you playing al? > > Awakening is not about correct or not correct ideas, it is about you. His teachings seems to be sincere to me, but I could be wrong. One has to know inner peace oneself. Only that will make it certain. al. > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Your point of view is all based on some concept of the present > moment > > > that i guess you have picked up from some teacher ( Tolle?). > > > With that concept hold in consciousness Reality is missed. drop > it, > > > and see what you are. > > > much love from your self > > > > > > > Tolle could be a big fraud, making money on some mixture of ancient > > teachings, but what he says seems to be sincere and certainly > correct > > when we step back and look at ourselves. But I agree that we must > get > > our own view and sense of all this " spiritual " stuff. The day I > feel > > complete inner peace and all fear has evaporated, then I will say > that > > these spiritual ideas are correct. Until then, I remain skeptical. > > > > al. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> wrote: > > Anders, > > Your own views or those of another are still views, which is just > thought. And you already are such a thought-maniac, full of mental > baloney and nonsens, that it is time now to end all views. > > What are you without any views, concepts, assumptions, idas and > beliefs ? > > And now you start thinking again and to offer new concepts and ideas > and mental eggs what you could be, right ? > > Noone here is inteested in your offerings bred by your incessant > mind. People here already are full with their own shit. > > Werner > In this post you see things through the static stuckness of the intellect. Things change all the time, but the intellect stubbornly hold on to its own ideas about itself and others. The intellect hate change, because it becomes even more confused than it aready is. al. > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wroeliefste: > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Your point of view is all based on some concept of the present > moment > > > that i guess you have picked up from some teacher ( Tolle?). > > > With that concept hold in consciousness Reality is missed. drop > it, > > > and see what you are. > > > much love from your self > > > > > > > Tolle could be a big fraud, making money on some mixture of ancient > > teachings, but what he says seems to be sincere and certainly > correct > > when we step back and look at ourselves. But I agree that we must > get > > our own view and sense of all this " spiritual " stuff. The day I > feel > > complete inner peace and all fear has evaporated, then I will say > that > > these spiritual ideas are correct. Until then, I remain skeptical. > > > > al. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 - ADHHUB Nisargadatta Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:51 PM Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u Re: Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:37 AM Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from desire. A > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and falling > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. This results > in a state of peace. > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can fulfill > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > Phil > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call psychological time. al. My beloved al, Desire is all there is. Thank on that for a few minutes. Meditate on the desire. See how it is the next moment and the next. I AM is desire itself. Ana Phil, We are not so far apart... but you are not I. Desire is the EXPERIENCE of I, my Beloved Phil. Ana -------------------- Tis not, dear Ana. Desire is a human delusion sourced in the confusion of separateness; incompleteness. The entire dream is sourced by the illusion of unwholeness. Wholeness cannot create a dream of something. I AM is wholeness itself. Wholeness lacks nothing; desires nothing; IS everything. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 - ADHHUB Nisargadatta Saturday, December 17, 2005 3:36 PM Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u Re: Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions - anders_lindman Nisargadatta Saturday, December 17, 2005 4:18 AM Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > anders_lindman > Nisargadatta > Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:37 AM > Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > It seems unnecessarily complex to me. All thought results from > desire. A > > detached, virtually desireless state results in thoughts arising and > falling > > without the creation of 'thought trains' that result in conflict. > This results > > in a state of peace. > > > > Thought, itself, is not the problem, but the belief that thought can > fulfill > > desire. This belief must be challenged. > > > > Phil > > > > It could be true that desire is the driving force for thoughts. Desire > is always negative, because desire is always an enemy to the present > moment. Desire always causes waiting and/or stress, what I call > psychological time. > > al. > > > My beloved al, > > Desire is all there is. Thank on that for a few minutes. Meditate on the desire. See how it is the next moment and the next. > > I AM is desire itself. > > Ana > . When desire operates in harmony with action and being in the moment, then there is flow. But when desire creates 1001 thoughts about the future, then that will create waiting and/or stress. It seems that the intellect CANNOT desire what is now, and instead is compelled to always try to run away from the now. That's why the intellect becomes restless or bored when not occupied with some activity that makes it forget its own sense of time. al. Perhaps the natural progression of life needs to be reviewed: Life begins with desire, the desire of One to know Two, and so Soul formed from Spirit of One descends into human form and begins his/her ascent in the desire to return to One. The method is Love, the return is to Love for the sake of Love, Love moves the intellect through all feelings and senses for the experience of Two in Love with One. Ana -------------- In my perception, life doesn't begin with the desire of One to know two, but rather the potentiality to know Self. The eye cannot see the eye, and so there must be an 'other'. It is from the perspective of the illusion of otherness that the One can look back upon itself. Is that a possibility? Phil all things are possible within the storyline...;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> > Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions > > > > AL: When desire operates in harmony with action and being in the moment, > then there is flow. But when desire creates 1001 thoughts about the > future, then that will create waiting and/or stress. It seems that the > intellect CANNOT desire what is now, and instead is compelled to > always try to run away from the now. > > > > Phil: If what IS now is what is desired, then it's no longer a desire, eh? > > Desire is always something that will occur in the future. The mind is in the > business of trying to fulfill future desires. > > > > > AL: That's why the intellect becomes > restless or bored when not occupied with some activity that makes it > forget its own sense of time. > > > > Phil: It's not really about the mind's sense of time. The mind becomes > restless because it believes it must get on with the work of fulfilling desires > and avoiding misery. This, of course, is the source of misery, since it can > never really succeed. > > Phil > The effort to fulfill desire IS psychological time, the mind's sense of time, which can only create waiting and/or stress. al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 if this is the case, then the validity of teaching is irrilevant. Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > in your own mail you have already labelled Tolle's teachings as > > " sincere and certainly correct " !!! so, which game are you playing al? > > > > Awakening is not about correct or not correct ideas, it is about you. > > > His teachings seems to be sincere to me, but I could be wrong. One has > to know inner peace oneself. Only that will make it certain. > > al. > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Your point of view is all based on some concept of the present > > moment > > > > that i guess you have picked up from some teacher ( Tolle?). > > > > With that concept hold in consciousness Reality is missed. drop > > it, > > > > and see what you are. > > > > much love from your self > > > > > > > > > > Tolle could be a big fraud, making money on some mixture of ancient > > > teachings, but what he says seems to be sincere and certainly > > correct > > > when we step back and look at ourselves. But I agree that we must > > get > > > our own view and sense of all this " spiritual " stuff. The day I > > feel > > > complete inner peace and all fear has evaporated, then I will say > > that > > > these spiritual ideas are correct. Until then, I remain skeptical. > > > > > > al. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > if this is the case, then the validity of teaching is irrilevant. Spiritual teaching can be seen as a part of the whole movement of life. One could say that nothing in life is irrelevant including those things we think are irrelevant. al. > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> > wrote: > > > > > > in your own mail you have already labelled Tolle's teachings as > > > " sincere and certainly correct " !!! so, which game are you playing > al? > > > > > > Awakening is not about correct or not correct ideas, it is about > you. > > > > > > His teachings seems to be sincere to me, but I could be wrong. One > has > > to know inner peace oneself. Only that will make it certain. > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your point of view is all based on some concept of the > present > > > moment > > > > > that i guess you have picked up from some teacher ( Tolle?). > > > > > With that concept hold in consciousness Reality is missed. > drop > > > it, > > > > > and see what you are. > > > > > much love from your self > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tolle could be a big fraud, making money on some mixture of > ancient > > > > teachings, but what he says seems to be sincere and certainly > > > correct > > > > when we step back and look at ourselves. But I agree that we > must > > > get > > > > our own view and sense of all this " spiritual " stuff. The day > I > > > feel > > > > complete inner peace and all fear has evaporated, then I will > say > > > that > > > > these spiritual ideas are correct. Until then, I remain > skeptical. > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 ya, i meant the VALIDITY of teaching, its being good for reaching something. Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > if this is the case, then the validity of teaching is irrilevant. > > Spiritual teaching can be seen as a part of the whole movement of > life. One could say that nothing in life is irrelevant including those > things we think are irrelevant. > > al. > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > in your own mail you have already labelled Tolle's teachings as > > > > " sincere and certainly correct " !!! so, which game are you playing > > al? > > > > > > > > Awakening is not about correct or not correct ideas, it is about > > you. > > > > > > > > > His teachings seems to be sincere to me, but I could be wrong. One > > has > > > to know inner peace oneself. Only that will make it certain. > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your point of view is all based on some concept of the > > present > > > > moment > > > > > > that i guess you have picked up from some teacher ( Tolle?). > > > > > > With that concept hold in consciousness Reality is missed. > > drop > > > > it, > > > > > > and see what you are. > > > > > > much love from your self > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tolle could be a big fraud, making money on some mixture of > > ancient > > > > > teachings, but what he says seems to be sincere and certainly > > > > correct > > > > > when we step back and look at ourselves. But I agree that we > > must > > > > get > > > > > our own view and sense of all this " spiritual " stuff. The day > > I > > > > feel > > > > > complete inner peace and all fear has evaporated, then I will > > say > > > > that > > > > > these spiritual ideas are correct. Until then, I remain > > skeptical. > > > > > > > > > > al. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > > > ya, i meant the VALIDITY of teaching, its being good for reaching > something. Yes, bad things are maybe needed when they happen, as for example following a " false " teacher, but at the same time the good is the direction we need to go, and certainly it is important that one abandon following a false teacher when one sees that his or her teachings are not valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions My beloved al, Desire is all there is. Thank on that for a few minutes. Meditate on the desire. See how it is the next moment and the next. I AM is desire itself. Ana ---------------- Tis not, dear Ana. Desire is a human delusion sourced in the confusion of separateness; incompleteness. The entire dream is sourced by the illusion of unwholeness. Wholeness cannot create a dream of something. I AM is wholeness itself. Wholeness lacks nothing; desires nothing; IS everything. Phil ------------------ Phil, We are not so far apart... but you are not I. Desire is the EXPERIENCE of I, my Beloved Phil. Ana -------------- Tis not, dear Ana. Desire is the longing for wholeness; to BE 'I'. As long as you seek the experience of 'I', you remain other than 'I'. You seek a repeat performance, but the play must always end as long as you remain one of the actors or a member of the audience. You're right. We're not far apart at all. I wrote something to you on the poetry forum which was intercepted and banned because it wasn't understood. I let it go weeks ago, but I'll copy it for you here: I think you know Always have you been seen I think you know From the first verse that told a tale Beyond words of passion. There is a gathering of man I think you know Threaded by a silver chord. We meet in our dreams And conspire with God To bring light to darkness. Some are warriors I think you know. Some inspire love With words of wonder. Some go where angels Fear to tread. Every now and then I think you know The chord draws us near. This is for you, Ana. See you in your dreams. Namaste, my friend. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman Re: Psychological time, thinking and emotions > AL: That's why the intellect becomes > restless or bored when not occupied with some activity that makes it > forget its own sense of time. > > > > Phil: It's not really about the mind's sense of time. The mind becomes > restless because it believes it must get on with the work of fulfilling desires > and avoiding misery. This, of course, is the source of misery, since it can > never really succeed. > > Phil > The effort to fulfill desire IS psychological time, the mind's sense of time, which can only create waiting and/or stress. al. Does time perception create stress or does desire create stress and lead to time perception as a means of trying to resolve it? It makes a difference when it comes to which one you attempt to eliminate. As long as desire is experienced, the mind won't remain in the present. You can't end desire by trying to end time perception. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.