Guest guest Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 Hi Ho Silver verses Epston LE: " They may look or act unconscious, and unintelligent, and unfeeling, but that is only the external appearance. " Silver: Larry, if it appears to me that someone is behaving in a way that threatens my existence, I will not take the time to consider our common caveman ancestry. I don't care one iota that this person descends from our Mother Monkey or not. If he is going to harm me, I will take measures to reduce him to nothing before he does. LELE: Who is threatening your existence? Who is going to harm you? You represent the Pol Pot, and Stalin attitude. That you will kill anyone that is a threat, and that is everyone. You are talking like George Bush. We had better get them before they get us. Anyone that disagrees with you is considered the enemy. Too bad. You are either joking or are dangerous. Hitler was an artist before he was a murderer and dictator. And if you didn't like his art, you were a dead man later. LE: " That is the role or part the Infinite Life Being is playing out as who they are, just as the who you are. " Silver: Well, if your Infinite Life Being wants to play the role of my assailant, I guess I'll just have to live with my role as His worst nightmare. LELE: Who want to be your " assailant. " Do you see Life as enemy? And if your life is a nightmare, or you are a violent person, that is what the Infinite Life Being is doing as you, and every other viscious, unkind, meanhearted and cruel person. That's the hard part to swallow. Even harder than the first part. LE: " You wouldn't be here at all if it weren't for them who create the mass of human flesh out of which you arise. You are standing on the shoulders of that dull flesh, so to speak. " Silver: Bull shit! I am standing with my foot up his ass. L.E.L.E: True enough. Nice of you to admit it. But you don't stand there alone. You are another expression of Life's experience as you. LE: " Back before there was you, the intelligent, the perceptive, there were your ancestors, the brutish, the ignorant, the dark mass of humans who could hardly speak a word 100,000 years ago, or 200,000 years ago. Only because they lived, do you live. Silver: I live because I was strong enough to endure the odds against my having been born. Evolution provided the means to my end. And I didn’t ask for it either. L.E.L.E: There probably were no odds against you being born unless you were born from a Jewish mother in a concentration camp, or to an Iraqi women when we Americans were bombing everything. What you call evolution, I am calling Infinite Life Being. Just a broader and deeper version of the same thing. In the sense that the child is simply an extension of its parents, as your mother and father asked for it, you also asked for it. When your parents produced you, there was no you to ask for anything, so you have no right to resent being born at this point. LE: " And this mass of human flesh that lives, but does not think very well, is still here although changed, just as your ancestor line has changed. You have come out of them, they are you, so perhaps a bit of kindness and charity is needed here, rather than superiority and arrogance. " Silver: I am here because my ancestors were superior and arrogant enough to fight their inferior enemies. LELE: There is no way for you to know that. Other beings and life forms died for a wide variety of reasons other than inferior attributes. And more recently, your ancestors could have been the same weak inferior people you mentioned earlier, and you might be the child of the ignorant, unintelligent and unfeeling, rather than the superior and arrogant. LE: " And some of their children may be smarter and more intelligent than you. " Silver: I don't have a problem with the children of idiots if they're not idiots. LELE: Honor your father and mother, and all fathers and mothers even if they are idiots. LE: " You are like the genius whose parents are ignorant and uneducated, and rough in their manners, and who is ashamed of his ancestory, his parents, and denies his parentage and says, " I did not come out of them, I am above them, I do not accept them. They are nothing, but I, I, am something great. " " Silver: Some of my ancestors would have scalped you or eaten you for breakfast. I, on the other hand, would not. LELE: It’s nice to know you have changed your diet, but although you do not eat humans, you sneer, and insult, show arrogance and faux superiority. LE: " You know, some people place very high value on crystals as transforming energies, although I do not, but to compare people to crystals is perhaps giving them more value than you think they deserve. " Silver: You're right. Some have a higher value than a crystal and deserve my respect. Some don't. LELE: You can respect who you want, and disrespect who you want, within the laws of your country, but there is moral law as well, and arrogance is usually seen as a deficiency. Not that you care. LE: " All and any contemporary human is more conscious and aware than a rock or a tree, or a dog, or a monkey even though you may not agree since you compare them to a crystal which is a rock or stone. So obviously you are exaggerating. " Silver: I wasn't comparing people to rocks. I was saying that some people are about as useless as a quartz crystal is to a non-New Ager like myself. LELE: That’s true enough, but no one is useless, and all have the life they have, being born into their circumstances. Is running a concentration camp being useful, and how about torturing prisoners in Iraq. Are those people useful? Is selling you a hamburger, or shining your shoes being useful enough for you? LE: " And you are using the word " consciousness " in a different sense than I. Just imagine being one of these people and looking out of their eyes. What is going on? " Silver: I ask myself that question all the time. What the hell is wrong with that asshole? Is he on drugs or something? LELE: There are people using drugs that harm themselves and people who hurt others. Are those to whom you address you complaint, " what’s wrong with that asshole? " LE: " Is there some basic difference between you and them in the perception of experience? " Silver: Uh...yes, there is a difference. When I am assaulted by a disruptive idiot, there is something wrong with the way he is perceiving life and I am forced to perceive him as an enemy who needs to be subdued. LELE: Who has assaulted you lately? And when someone perceives life differently, you see them as your enemy, and you feel obligated to attack them, right? Are my comments and ideas an assault by a disruptive idiot? Do you see me as a disruptive idiot? Do you feel a need to subdue me? You know, your attitude here is like the worst, most violent and cruel people who have ever lived. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Cortez and his killers, the Catholic Church’s Inquisition. They all thought and acted just like you. LE: " Who is looking out? The superior versus the lesser? " Silver: No. The sane (that would be me) versus the insane. LELE: I think they call it meglomania. Of course you think you are perfectly sane and self-righteous and its all those OTHERS who are wrong and dangerous .. If you are not kidding, again, you are dangerous to the well-being of people. LE: " How is your experience of eating a bowl of rice when you are hungry different from theirs? " Silver: I appreciate it and eat it in gratitude. I can't speak for other people. LELE: Gratitude to whom, and for what I wonder. LE: " And when you are having sex? Is your sexual experience more profound, deeper, more intelligent than theirs? " Silver: I can only speak for myself. I don't know how others experience sex. LELE: If my view is correct, on the deepest level, just as you do. LE: " When you are sick, and your nose is dripping with snot, is your discomfort more than theirs? " Silver: It might be or it might not be, depending on how much snot is dripping out of my nose. LE: " It is One Being looking out from all eyes, from all the senses of all beings and non-beings. All humans and others are like the fingers of a hand, separate at the ends, and joined at the root. " Silver: But if one of your fingers becomes infected with gangarene, I bet you wouldn't hesitate to chop it off before it spread to the others. LELE: That’s why we have prisons and executions. LE " Everything is like that, separate in appearance, and joined at the root, and it is the One Life Being who is experiencing all of this, here and now and everywhere, strange and impossible as it may seem. " Silver: Prove it. LELE: Proof is a strange business Silver. Different kind of proof for different purposes. When a child dies, the parents grieve. When a lover dies, the other grieves. That shows kind of a connectedness. If you died, would anyone care, or are you disconnected? When Marco Polo returned from China, on one accepted that there was such a place. How could he prove it. He probably said, " go there and see. " What else could he say? So I say to you, " go there/here " and see for yourself, or read about it. There are many books documenting the experiences of others. But you have to ask, how much proof is enough? A person can be so extremely skeptical that in fact, no amount of proof is enough. LE: " And why do you object so strongly? If I have that fantasy, that sense, that point of view, that pointless point of view, what difference does it make to you? " Silver: It makes no difference to me at all. I was bored and wanted to kill some time. LELE: So if you have some more time to kill, kill some more. And then, why are you bored? I’m not bored. Do you have some deficiency of entertainment? What would you rather be doing than what you are doing? LE: " Why do you even bother with this idea? Let it be, let me be to go my own way? What is your concern if I am dumb, blind or ignorant? Perhaps I am just another of the unconscious, unintelligent, and unfeeling persons you see everyday and look down in your superior arrogance. " Silver: Lol. No, I don't think you're one of the people I have to deal with every day. LELE: Maybe not, but there is still the issue of your hostility and arrogance and your superior attitude to others. LE: " Do you offer them any help or advice or assistance, or do you just sneer at them and walk by, and are you sneering at me in my ignorance as well? " Silver: You're nothing like them, Larry. Chill out, brother. Or I'll kick your ass, too. LELE: I’m cool man, No tension here. Just having a good time. As for your kicking, I’d never give you the opportunity. Wait until you grow up and can run your own concentration camp. Then you can get rid of as many enemies as you desire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 - epston Nisargadatta Monday, December 19, 2005 11:58 AM Hi Ho Silver vs Epston Hi Ho Silver verses Epston LE: " They may look or act unconscious, and unintelligent, and unfeeling, but that is only the external appearance. " Silver: Larry, if it appears to me that someone is behaving in a way that threatens my existence, I will not take the time to consider our common caveman ancestry. I don't care one iota that this person descends from our Mother Monkey or not. If he is going to harm me, I will take measures to reduce him to nothing before he does. LELE: Who is threatening your existence? Who is going to harm you? You represent the Pol Pot, and Stalin attitude. That you will kill anyone that is a threat, and that is everyone. You are talking like George Bush. We had better get them before they get us. Anyone that disagrees with you is considered the enemy. Too bad. You are either joking or are dangerous. Hitler was an artist before he was a murderer and dictator. And if you didn't like his art, you were a dead man later. LE: " That is the role or part the Infinite Life Being is playing out as who they are, just as the who you are. " Silver: Well, if your Infinite Life Being wants to play the role of my assailant, I guess I'll just have to live with my role as His worst nightmare. LELE: Who want to be your " assailant. " Do you see Life as enemy? And if your life is a nightmare, or you are a violent person, that is what the Infinite Life Being is doing as you, and every other viscious, unkind, meanhearted and cruel person. That's the hard part to swallow. Even harder than the first part. LE: " You wouldn't be here at all if it weren't for them who create the mass of human flesh out of which you arise. You are standing on the shoulders of that dull flesh, so to speak. " Silver: Bull shit! I am standing with my foot up his ass. L.E.L.E: True enough. Nice of you to admit it. But you don't stand there alone. You are another expression of Life's experience as you. LE: " Back before there was you, the intelligent, the perceptive, there were your ancestors, the brutish, the ignorant, the dark mass of humans who could hardly speak a word 100,000 years ago, or 200,000 years ago. Only because they lived, do you live. Silver: I live because I was strong enough to endure the odds against my having been born. Evolution provided the means to my end. And I didn’t ask for it either. L.E.L.E: There probably were no odds against you being born unless you were born from a Jewish mother in a concentration camp, or to an Iraqi women when we Americans were bombing everything. What you call evolution, I am calling Infinite Life Being. Just a broader and deeper version of the same thing. In the sense that the child is simply an extension of its parents, as your mother and father asked for it, you also asked for it. When your parents produced you, there was no you to ask for anything, so you have no right to resent being born at this point. LE: " And this mass of human flesh that lives, but does not think very well, is still here although changed, just as your ancestor line has changed. You have come out of them, they are you, so perhaps a bit of kindness and charity is needed here, rather than superiority and arrogance. " Silver: I am here because my ancestors were superior and arrogant enough to fight their inferior enemies. LELE: There is no way for you to know that. Other beings and life forms died for a wide variety of reasons other than inferior attributes. And more recently, your ancestors could have been the same weak inferior people you mentioned earlier, and you might be the child of the ignorant, unintelligent and unfeeling, rather than the superior and arrogant. LE: " And some of their children may be smarter and more intelligent than you. " Silver: I don't have a problem with the children of idiots if they're not idiots. LELE: Honor your father and mother, and all fathers and mothers even if they are idiots. LE: " You are like the genius whose parents are ignorant and uneducated, and rough in their manners, and who is ashamed of his ancestory, his parents, and denies his parentage and says, " I did not come out of them, I am above them, I do not accept them. They are nothing, but I, I, am something great. " " Silver: Some of my ancestors would have scalped you or eaten you for breakfast. I, on the other hand, would not. LELE: It’s nice to know you have changed your diet, but although you do not eat humans, you sneer, and insult, show arrogance and faux superiority. LE: " You know, some people place very high value on crystals as transforming energies, although I do not, but to compare people to crystals is perhaps giving them more value than you think they deserve. " Silver: You're right. Some have a higher value than a crystal and deserve my respect. Some don't. LELE: You can respect who you want, and disrespect who you want, within the laws of your country, but there is moral law as well, and arrogance is usually seen as a deficiency. Not that you care. LE: " All and any contemporary human is more conscious and aware than a rock or a tree, or a dog, or a monkey even though you may not agree since you compare them to a crystal which is a rock or stone. So obviously you are exaggerating. " Silver: I wasn't comparing people to rocks. I was saying that some people are about as useless as a quartz crystal is to a non-New Ager like myself. LELE: That’s true enough, but no one is useless, and all have the life they have, being born into their circumstances. Is running a concentration camp being useful, and how about torturing prisoners in Iraq. Are those people useful? Is selling you a hamburger, or shining your shoes being useful enough for you? LE: " And you are using the word " consciousness " in a different sense than I. Just imagine being one of these people and looking out of their eyes. What is going on? " Silver: I ask myself that question all the time. What the hell is wrong with that asshole? Is he on drugs or something? LELE: There are people using drugs that harm themselves and people who hurt others. Are those to whom you address you complaint, " what’s wrong with that asshole? " LE: " Is there some basic difference between you and them in the perception of experience? " Silver: Uh...yes, there is a difference. When I am assaulted by a disruptive idiot, there is something wrong with the way he is perceiving life and I am forced to perceive him as an enemy who needs to be subdued. LELE: Who has assaulted you lately? And when someone perceives life differently, you see them as your enemy, and you feel obligated to attack them, right? Are my comments and ideas an assault by a disruptive idiot? Do you see me as a disruptive idiot? Do you feel a need to subdue me? You know, your attitude here is like the worst, most violent and cruel people who have ever lived. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Cortez and his killers, the Catholic Church’s Inquisition. They all thought and acted just like you. LE: " Who is looking out? The superior versus the lesser? " Silver: No. The sane (that would be me) versus the insane. LELE: I think they call it meglomania. Of course you think you are perfectly sane and self-righteous and its all those OTHERS who are wrong and dangerous . If you are not kidding, again, you are dangerous to the well-being of people. LE: " How is your experience of eating a bowl of rice when you are hungry different from theirs? " Silver: I appreciate it and eat it in gratitude. I can't speak for other people. LELE: Gratitude to whom, and for what I wonder. LE: " And when you are having sex? Is your sexual experience more profound, deeper, more intelligent than theirs? " Silver: I can only speak for myself. I don't know how others experience sex. LELE: If my view is correct, on the deepest level, just as you do. LE: " When you are sick, and your nose is dripping with snot, is your discomfort more than theirs? " Silver: It might be or it might not be, depending on how much snot is dripping out of my nose. LE: " It is One Being looking out from all eyes, from all the senses of all beings and non-beings. All humans and others are like the fingers of a hand, separate at the ends, and joined at the root. " Silver: But if one of your fingers becomes infected with gangarene, I bet you wouldn't hesitate to chop it off before it spread to the others. LELE: That’s why we have prisons and executions. LE " Everything is like that, separate in appearance, and joined at the root, and it is the One Life Being who is experiencing all of this, here and now and everywhere, strange and impossible as it may seem. " Silver: Prove it. LELE: Proof is a strange business Silver. Different kind of proof for different purposes. When a child dies, the parents grieve. When a lover dies, the other grieves. That shows kind of a connectedness. If you died, would anyone care, or are you disconnected? When Marco Polo returned from China, on one accepted that there was such a place. How could he prove it. He probably said, " go there and see. " What else could he say? So I say to you, " go there/here " and see for yourself, or read about it. There are many books documenting the experiences of others. But you have to ask, how much proof is enough? A person can be so extremely skeptical that in fact, no amount of proof is enough. LE: " And why do you object so strongly? If I have that fantasy, that sense, that point of view, that pointless point of view, what difference does it make to you? " Silver: It makes no difference to me at all. I was bored and wanted to kill some time. LELE: So if you have some more time to kill, kill some more. And then, why are you bored? I’m not bored. Do you have some deficiency of entertainment? What would you rather be doing than what you are doing? LE: " Why do you even bother with this idea? Let it be, let me be to go my own way? What is your concern if I am dumb, blind or ignorant? Perhaps I am just another of the unconscious, unintelligent, and unfeeling persons you see everyday and look down in your superior arrogance. " Silver: Lol. No, I don't think you're one of the people I have to deal with every day. LELE: Maybe not, but there is still the issue of your hostility and arrogance and your superior attitude to others. LE: " Do you offer them any help or advice or assistance, or do you just sneer at them and walk by, and are you sneering at me in my ignorance as well? " Silver: You're nothing like them, Larry. Chill out, brother. Or I'll kick your ass, too. LELE: I’m cool man, No tension here. Just having a good time. As for your kicking, I’d never give you the opportunity. Wait until you grow up and can run your own concentration camp. Then you can get rid of as many enemies as you desire. ...and the arrogance that considers itself " I " , noblesse oblige? signed, curious not into dharma sparring these days or nights ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 LE: " Who is threatening your existence? Who is going to harm you? " Silver: Larry, in my line of work, I have to deal with problematic people on a regular basis. Some are violently aggressive. LE: " You represent the Pol Pot, and Stalin attitude. That you will kill anyone that is a threat, and that is everyone. Silver: Well, thankfully, not everyone poses a threat to me. Those who do, however, do not deserve my respect. I would'nt hesitate to use extreme force in order to subdue them if it was necessary to preserve my life. LE: " You are talking like George Bush. We had better get them before they get us. " Silver: No, Larry. I had better defend myself against an active assailant. LE: " Anyone that disagrees with you is considered the enemy. Too bad. You are either joking or are dangerous. " Silver: If I do not agree with my enemy, it is simply over the fact that he wants to harm me. Should I agree to hand my life over to him? LE: " Hitler was an artist before he was a murderer and dictator. And if you didn't like his art, you were a dead man later. " Silver: Yes and I would have defended myself against him. LE: " That is the role or part the Infinite Life Being is playing out as who they are, just as the who you are. " Silver: Well, if your Infinite Life Being wants to play the role of my assailant, I guess I'll just have to live with my role as His worst nightmare. LE: " Who want to be your " assailant. " Do you see Life as enemy? And if your life is a nightmare, or you are a violent person... " Silver: I sometimes have to defend myself against active aggressors while I'm trying to earn my living. My life is not a nightmare; but I can be someone else's nightmare if they provoke me enough to warrant it. LE: " ...that is what the Infinite Life Being is doing as you, and every other viscious, unkind, meanhearted and cruel person. That's the hard part to swallow. Even harder than the first part. " Silver: Swallow away, Larry. Personally, I don't buy it. LE: " But you don't stand there alone. You are another expression of Life's experience as you. " Silver: I don't perceive myself in that way. LE: " There probably were no odds against you being born unless you were born from a Jewish mother in a concentration camp, or to an Iraqi women when we Americans were bombing everything. Silver: The body's birth is a miracle. LE: " What you call evolution, I am calling Infinite Life Being. Just a broader and deeper version of the same thing. Silver: No, you put a spiritual slant on it. I don't. LE: " In the sense that the child is simply an extension of its parents, as your mother and father asked for it, you also asked for it. When your parents produced you, there was no you to ask for anything, so you have no right to resent being born at this point. " Silver: You contradict yourself. If there was no me to ask to be born, then how could I have asked to be born? I don't feel any resentment. On one level, I accept that I have a body. LE: " Is running a concentration camp being useful, and how about torturing prisoners in Iraq. Are those people useful? Silver: They serve a function. But not a useful one, in my opinion. LE: " Is selling you a hamburger, or shining your shoes being useful enough for you? " Silver: Yes. LE: " There are people using drugs that harm themselves and people who hurt others. Are those to whom you address you complaint, " what’s wrong with that asshole? " " Silver: Yes. LE: " Is there some basic difference between you and them in the perception of experience? " Silver: Uh...yes, there is a difference. When I am assaulted by a disruptive idiot, there is something wrong with the way he is perceiving life and I am forced to perceive him as an enemy who needs to be subdued. LE: " Who has assaulted you lately? And when someone perceives life differently, you see them as your enemy, and you feel obligated to attack them, right? " Silver: Wrong. I feel obligated to defend myself. LE: " Are my comments and ideas an assault by a disruptive idiot? Do you see me as a disruptive idiot? Do you feel a need to subdue me? " Silver: No, Larry. I wasn't referring to you. LE: " You know, your attitude here is like the worst, most violent and cruel people who have ever lived. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Cortez and his killers, the Catholic Church’s Inquisition. They all thought and acted just like you. " Silver: You misunderstood. I won't take the above personally. LELE: " I think they call it meglomania. Of course you think you are perfectly sane and self-righteous and its all those OTHERS who are wrong and dangerous. If you are not kidding, again, you are dangerous to the well-being of people. " Silver: Again, you misunderstood and I accept the blame. Silver: But if one of your fingers becomes infected with gangarene, I bet you wouldn't hesitate to chop it off before it spread to the others. LE: That’s why we have prisons and executions. Silver: Agreed. LE: " Proof is a strange business Silver. Different kind of proof for different purposes. When a child dies, the parents grieve. When a lover dies, the other grieves. That shows kind of a connectedness. " Silver: Grief proves that there is grief. LE: " If you died, would anyone care, or are you disconnected? " Silver: Someone would grieve for me, yes. What kind of connection are you trying to prove? LE: " When Marco Polo returned from China, on one accepted that there was such a place. How could he prove it. He probably said, " go there and see. " What else could he say? So I say to you, " go there/here " and see for yourself, or read about it. There are many books documenting the experiences of others. But you have to ask, how much proof is enough? A person can be so extremely skeptical that in fact, no amount of proof is enough. " Silver: What is it that you are trying to prove? LE: " So if you have some more time to kill, kill some more. And then, why are you bored? I’m not bored. Do you have some deficiency of entertainment? " Silver: I'm not bored now. Thank you. LE: " What would you rather be doing than what you are doing? " Silver: I should be doing my laundry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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