Stefan-No External Forces

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/29/2005 7:59:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,

silver-1069 writes:

 

> " I " am the world, there is no external emperor. If

> >you disagree, then you have to tell me: Who or What is above you

> then?

 

Larry: There is no one above me and no one below me, therefore I cannot be an

emperor.

 

> Do you believe in God or Faith or Mother Earth or Holy Consciousness

> >as external forces? If you carry such a belief, we can quickly come

> to

> >a peaceful agreement of disagreement

 

Larry: I do not carry such a belief. so, no peacful agreement of

disagreement is possible. There are no external forces.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/30/2005 3:22:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,

s.petersilge writes:

 

> This is wonderful. Now, can you go one step further? Can you see now,

> as there are no external forces, how you are all alone and how there

> is no instance where you can direct your complaints about the

> condition of the world?

>

 

That's O.K., You go first.

I already said there were no external forces, why are you repeating?

And, I am not alone, you are here, as well as everyone and everthing.

In the deeper sense, I am my own company, and that's O.K. too.

 

Larry

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , epston@a... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 12/29/2005 7:59:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> silver-1069@h... writes:

 

*****CORRECTION: " Silver " wrote none of what's below. You are

addressing the wrong author. However, it really doesn't matter to

me. Just pointing out your mistake, Larry. Try not to take it

personally, okay?

 

" Silver "

>

> > " I " am the world, there is no external emperor. If

> > >you disagree, then you have to tell me: Who or What is above you

> > then?

>

> Larry: There is no one above me and no one below me, therefore I

cannot be an

> emperor.

>

> > Do you believe in God or Faith or Mother Earth or Holy

Consciousness

> > >as external forces? If you carry such a belief, we can quickly

come

> > to

> > >a peaceful agreement of disagreement

>

> Larry: I do not carry such a belief. so, no peacful agreement of

> disagreement is possible. There are no external forces.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Larry, you say:

 

>There is no one above me and no one below me, therefore I cannot be

>an emperor.

>...I do not carry such a belief. so, no peacful agreement of

>disagreement is possible. There are no external forces.

 

This is wonderful. Now, can you go one step further? Can you see now,

as there are no external forces, how you are all alone and how there

is no instance where you can direct your complaints about the

condition of the world?

 

The following you did send to me as PM, maybe by mistake. Since it is

related to our small conversation I think it is ok to quote it here:

 

>I'm sure you are a very nice guy, but you sure have a lot of

mind-stuff going on. Going back and forth with you is like quicksand.

The more you say, the deeper we go.

 

Look, this is one of the greatest compliments I have ever received.

You start to see the mind-stuff that is going on within you, as it

happens between us. Yes, mindstuff is like quicksand! And I am so

happy to see how we start to drown in it through sincere and earnest

inquiring, as Nisargadatta used to call it. Let it happen, go deeper

and deeper, what do you have to lose? That which drowns did never

exist, haha!

 

But you decide how deep you go. I never expect an answer from you. I

am not playing ping-pong. Nevertheless I am greatful to you for giving

me the opportunity to pose those arising questions, again and again.

And once again they leave me in wordless wonder.

 

Lolila

Stefan

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/31/2005 4:42:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,

s.petersilge writes:

 

>

> Nisargadatta , epston@a... wrote:

>

> >That's O.K., You go first.

>

> Yes, I will. I also do not believe in external forces. But for me this

> means I am utterly alone. In my world you exist only as an image in my

> mind. There is no way around, no way across a bridge. No telescope. I am

> already all and everything, everything is already here as it appears

> and vanishes when it is gone.

>

> In the beginning it was hard to accept this kind of stuff, but later

> everything fell into place and felt natural, ordinary.

>

> I love that picture of the quicksand, Larry! I thought about it all

> day and it made me smile.

>

> Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express all this.

>

> Stefan

>

 

L.E. Stefan, you are just pretending. I can tell from your words and the

way they are phrased, the music between the lines. This following sentence shows

me you are not it, you are talking about it. Pretense. But that's O.K. Try

it on, and it may fit soon.

 

In the beginning it was hard to accept this kind of stuff, but later

everything fell into place and felt natural, ordinary.

 

Your use of the word 'believe " also betrays you. Self-realized beings do not

believe, the know, and you don't yet know, but persist, you may yet.

 

" But for me this means I am utterly alone. "

 

If you were utterly along in the absolute sense, you wouldn't be saying this.

Oneness is not alone, it has all of the relative world to enjoy. There is no

suffering in it. It just is, I am, we are, it is.

 

And, you are welcome. Keep on going.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/31/2005 7:20:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,

s.petersilge writes:

 

In Nisargadatta , epston@a... wrote

 

L.E: Oneness is not alone, it has all of the relative world to enjoy.

 

Stefan says: You can be alone and still enjoy the relative world

 

L.E: Is that what you are doing? Is there a difference between being along

and feeling lonely. Is the ONE alone? How can one who reaches NO OTHER feel

alone?

 

But as long as you are still looking for Mum and Dad, to prove what a great

boy you are so they won't let you down, you are feeling lonely. You

feel lonely until you accept that you are alone.

 

L.E: That’s not me you are describing. I wonder why you would even say

that?

So you do feel alone, but not lonely.

 

To be alone (which is the consequence of being all-one) is a different

animal. Hard to accept, I know ;-)

 

L.E: Why do I have to accept anything? It is your task to describe, not mine

to accept. I accept you as you are. That’s no problem.

 

But for me it is how it is, I cant help it. I have described it in my

last post: I am already all and everything, everything is already here

as it appears and vanishes when it is gone. I do not think that you

are different, Larry, it is just a question of acceptance.

 

L.E. Again I ask, why do you talk about acceptance concerning your state of

being? I accept you. I don’t deny anything you say. Just as you are is O.K.

with me. And, why are you apologizing? No regrets, no excuses, just be who you

are. Put it on and wear it!

 

And, just to correct you one more time, I have clearly said: I do NOT

believe in external forces. You have over-looked this subtlety. No

problem, just to give you more food for thought.

 

L.E. Look! It is not a matter of belief. It is or it isn’t. They exist or

they don’t.

Your belief has nothing to do with it. Self-realized masters don’t need

beliefs, they know!!

 

Go on with your exercises, sharpen the sword of your critical mind, it

can be very useful one day...

 

L.E. One day! How about now, with you?

 

Thanks again

Stefan

 

L.E: You are welcome.

Thank you too.

 

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[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , epston@a... wrote:

 

>That's O.K., You go first.

 

Yes, I will. I also do not believe in external forces. But for me this

means I am utterly alone. In my world you exist only as an image in my

mind. There is no way around, no way across a bridge. No telescope. I am

already all and everything, everything is already here as it appears

and vanishes when it is gone.

 

In the beginning it was hard to accept this kind of stuff, but later

everything fell into place and felt natural, ordinary.

 

I love that picture of the quicksand, Larry! I thought about it all

day and it made me smile.

 

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express all this.

 

Stefan

[Guest guest]

Nisargadatta , epston@a... wrote:

 

>Oneness is not alone, it has all of the relative world to enjoy.

 

You can be alone and still enjoy the relative world, Larry. But as

long as you are still looking for Mum and Dad, to prove what a great

boy you are so they won't let you down, you are feeling lonely. You

feel lonely until you accept that you are alone. To be alone (which is

the consequence of being all-one) is a different animal. Hard to

accept, I know ;-)

 

But for me it is how it is, I cant help it. I have described it in my

last post: I am already all and everything, everything is already here

as it appears and vanishes when it is gone. I do not think that you

are different, Larry, it is just a question of acceptance.

 

And, just to correct you one more time, I have clearly said: I do NOT

believe in external forces. You have over-looked this subtlety. No

problem, just to give you more food for thought.

 

Go on with your exercises, sharpen the sword of your critical mind, it

can be very useful one day...

 

Thanks again

Stefan

[Guest guest]

Hi Larry,

 

I think you have to exercise more before you can use your sword

successfully. What do you think it should be used for. To fight the

external forces?

 

You write:

>Look! It is not a matter of belief. It is or it isnt. They exist or

they dont. Your belief has nothing to do with it.

 

Larry, thats exactly why I wrote: " I do NOT believe " . Are you already

so deeply in the quicksand that you can not understand such a simple

sentence? ;-)

 

>Self-realized masters dont need beliefs, they know!!

 

My goodness, what are " self realized masters " ? Maybe, do you talk

about yourself?

 

However, now some words about acceptance: I do not want to be accepted

by you. It would be a stupid, futile attempt. It would mean that I do

not accept things as they are.

 

But when you complain about others, the state of the world, so

desperately seek appreciation here: you are falling back again and

again into the patterns of a child, which needs to be feeded in order

to survive. Even this is natural and has to be accepted, if you want

to accept yourself.

 

Then there comes the step of understanding. To see that the world is

you means the beginning to accept your aloneness. If you are all, if

the world is you, how can be there someone else to feed you? Where you

can direct your complaints? As long as you fear your aloneness and try

to avoid it you are like somebody who tries to look through both ends

of the telescope at the same time. But there is no telescope. There is

simply what is: experiencing moment to moment. I said " I cant help

it " . This was not an apologize. Here is helplessness and always was.

Acceptance, and it means ahhh.... letting go.

 

Maybe are you too deep in the quicksand now? Remember what I told you:

YOU decide how deep you go.

 

Greetings

Stefan