Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 What I heard Bill say is that self honesty requires the willingness to be vulnerable, rather than the reverse. I agree wholeheartedly. Phil In a message dated 1/3/2006 1:41:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr Re: Pete is faking Bill, You don't need honesty to be vulnerable but you need ideals which hurt (they produce tension) when meeting reality. The honesty you need is to confess that YOU (and therefore your ideals) are the source of vulnerability. Werner --- In Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illieusion@h...> wrote: > > An interesting post Werner. > But I am puzzled by a connection you seem to make > between honesty and " no vulnerability " . > > It seems to me, and by this I mean per my own experience, > that honesty *requires* vulnerability. I don't have to > be vulnerable to others, but I certainly must be so to > myself. Otherwise, I am not being honest with myself. > And honesty, as far as I am concerned, is really about > honesty *with myself*. > > Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2006 Report Share Posted January 4, 2006 Hi Phil, Did you ever had the willingness to be vulnerable ? Ok, you hadn't. Now you say, from now on I will have that willingness. Question: How long will it last ? It will last for a wile and then you forget it, right ? " Willingness " is just a thought, an ideal. And your " wholehearted " agreeing very soon is too forgotten. All just thoughts, mind bubbles. Werner Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > What I heard Bill say is that self honesty requires the willingness to be > vulnerable, rather than the reverse. I agree wholeheartedly. > > Phil > > > > > > In a message dated 1/3/2006 1:41:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > Re: Pete is faking > > Bill, > > You don't need honesty to be vulnerable but you need ideals which > hurt (they produce tension) when meeting reality. > > The honesty you need is to confess that YOU (and therefore your > ideals) are the source of vulnerability. > > Werner > > > --- In Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illieusion@h...> > wrote: > > > > An interesting post Werner. > > But I am puzzled by a connection you seem to make > > between honesty and " no vulnerability " . > > > > It seems to me, and by this I mean per my own experience, > > that honesty *requires* vulnerability. I don't have to > > be vulnerable to others, but I certainly must be so to > > myself. Otherwise, I am not being honest with myself. > > And honesty, as far as I am concerned, is really about > > honesty *with myself*. > > > > Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Hi Werner If you've been listening to me ramble for a while, you know that I see choice as an illusion, and so I agree that the thought to be willing doesn't cause willingness to occur. The questions continue: What leads to willingness? If ego believes it can get what it wants by being willing, it will be willing. Lets say, for example, I say to you, " You're a God damn belligerent son of a bitch! " . Now, it's clear to you that I'm angry and belligerent and I'm projecting that onto you, and you tell me so. If, through my own experience with other projected issues, I've learned that being willing to look honestly within myself to see if your accusation is true can lead to a greater understanding, the acceptance of which leads to the removal of 'ego buttons' and a greater freedom, I may be willing to be vulnerable and risk the temporary discomfort in order to gain that greater peace and freedom. This is actually exactly how it worked for me. Ego is what keeps us in bondage, but it's also what motivates us to clean up our crap cause it sucks to live in crap. As such, my wholehearted agreement comes out of my experience and is not just a passing theoretical thought. Phil In a message dated 1/4/2006 6:56:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr Re: Vulnerability Hi Phil, Did you ever had the willingness to be vulnerable ? Ok, you hadn't. Now you say, from now on I will have that willingness. Question: How long will it last ? It will last for a wile and then you forget it, right ? " Willingness " is just a thought, an ideal. And your " wholehearted " agreeing very soon is too forgotten. All just thoughts, mind bubbles. Werner Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > What I heard Bill say is that self honesty requires the willingness to be > vulnerable, rather than the reverse. I agree wholeheartedly. > > Phil > > > > > > In a message dated 1/3/2006 1:41:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > Re: Pete is faking > > Bill, > > You don't need honesty to be vulnerable but you need ideals which > hurt (they produce tension) when meeting reality. > > The honesty you need is to confess that YOU (and therefore your > ideals) are the source of vulnerability. > > Werner > > > --- In Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illieusion@h...> > wrote: > > > > An interesting post Werner. > > But I am puzzled by a connection you seem to make > > between honesty and " no vulnerability " . > > > > It seems to me, and by this I mean per my own experience, > > that honesty *requires* vulnerability. I don't have to > > be vulnerable to others, but I certainly must be so to > > myself. Otherwise, I am not being honest with myself. > > And honesty, as far as I am concerned, is really about > > honesty *with myself*. > > > > Bill > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Phil, Someone gets mad at you. That will cause some disturbances in you or it will not which depend on your momentary situation. If there is a disturbance then it is a mix of emotions and thoughts. After a while these emotions get weaker and also the corresponding thoughts do. This one calls forgetting. With the same amount those disurbances get weaker also your so called " willingness " will disappear. Is readiness for cooperation willingness ? There will be people who will call your willingness cowardice. Others might call it canny, and still others will call you a conditioned robot. Werner Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > Hi Werner > If you've been listening to me ramble for a while, you know that I see > choice as an illusion, and so I agree that the thought to be willing doesn't cause > willingness to occur. The questions continue: What leads to willingness? If > ego believes it can get what it wants by being willing, it will be willing. > > Lets say, for example, I say to you, " You're a God damn belligerent son of a > bitch! " . Now, it's clear to you that I'm angry and belligerent and I'm > projecting that onto you, and you tell me so. If, through my own experience with > other projected issues, I've learned that being willing to look honestly within > myself to see if your accusation is true can lead to a greater > understanding, the acceptance of which leads to the removal of 'ego buttons' and a greater > freedom, I may be willing to be vulnerable and risk the temporary discomfort > in order to gain that greater peace and freedom. > > This is actually exactly how it worked for me. Ego is what keeps us in > bondage, but it's also what motivates us to clean up our crap cause it sucks to > live in crap. As such, my wholehearted agreement comes out of my experience and > is not just a passing theoretical thought. > > Phil > > > In a message dated 1/4/2006 6:56:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@p...> > Re: Vulnerability > > Hi Phil, > > Did you ever had the willingness to be vulnerable ? > Ok, you hadn't. > > Now you say, from now on I will have that willingness. Question: How > long will it last ? It will last for a wile and then you forget it, > right ? > > " Willingness " is just a thought, an ideal. > > And your " wholehearted " agreeing very soon is too forgotten. All just > thoughts, mind bubbles. > > Werner > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 In a message dated 1/5/2006 3:03:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr Re: Vulnerability Phil, Someone gets mad at you. That will cause some disturbances in you or it will not which depend on your momentary situation. If there is a disturbance then it is a mix of emotions and thoughts. After a while these emotions get weaker and also the corresponding thoughts do. This one calls forgetting. With the same amount those disurbances get weaker also your so called " willingness " will disappear. Is readiness for cooperation willingness ? There will be people who will call your willingness cowardice. Others might call it canny, and still others will call you a conditioned robot. Werner The process of getting angry until it fades in memory and repeating this cycle every time we are threatened is the height of ego silliness. Strike while the iron is hot and the willingness is present, and the silliness can be ended. The silliness has been ended here, and so there is no concern whatever what others will call me. The definitions of others don't define me, nor do my own. Ego sits in a corner waiting for something a bit more interesting to occur. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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