[NonDualPhil] mirror neurons, reposted extended, typos corrected

[Guest guest]

The implications of this notion of mirror neurons for psychology are

enormous, the regular understanding of bonding, projection, learning,

transference, empathy/apathy/sympathy, obsession, compulsion, being

'anal' - all that and more needs to be reviewed.

This may even form some basis for discussing serious guidelines or

even formal legislation to limit access to violent depictions in

plays, games, or tv shows aimed at young children now that we may have

some physio-biological understanding behind the process of almost (I

see it as 'almost') automatic absorption of what children 'see' and

'will' replicatingly act out.

Is it necessarily so that children 'w i l l' act them out. OK we have

'monkey see, monkey do', but with humans is that also 'human see,

human do...' or is it perhaps 'human see, human may or may not do'?

 

Is there is a 'control of error' mechanism built into or around this

mirror cell infrastructure?

Or - if there is no such thing built in - is that why we have the

'old-fashioned and tested moral code' acting as a set of 'checks and

balances'?

 

I myself believe that there is something structurally built in around

the mirror cells that acts as 'control of error' (I am after all a

true Montessorian, to which 'control of error' is natural comes

without saying), something of which more conventional moral codes are

watered down copies that have been reprogrammed to attain ulterior

goals that do not necessarily benefit the individual itself but

something or someone else that is made to feel more important or

greater than the individual (kind of like the 'Nazi ideal')

 

A lot of rethinking is warranted...

 

Are we ready for a possible paradigm shift in education and culture

cultivating...?

 

Even some popular notions developed by Piaget, some of his conclusions

(that I was almost forced to accept when I was studying psychology and

didactics) need to be thoroughly reviewed. Some of them even became

urban myths..., and urban myths are so resilient...

(Maybe there are specialized mirror neurons that turn modeling based

on flawed thinking - when it is brought forward 'cleverly and

craftily' - into urban-mythical postconceptions or maybe even cultural

preconceptions. :-)

 

Other questions:

.. Can we implant new mirror neurons? Should we?

.. Can we replace those neurons that replicated/duplicated less savory

or less acceptable impressions and thus produced less beneficial

social behavior? Should we?

.. Can we fix the broken neurons? Should we?

.. Can we now also find out what actually causes autism, obsessive

compulsive disorders and even... sociopathic or psychopathic behavior?

 

There is an issue not touched upon in depth yet when it come to mirror

neurons: is there not a certain 'proposal' quality to what mirror

neurons replicate/duplicate?

The way I see it, in humans, there seems to be a choice somewhere in

the individual to:

- take the impressions seriously and follow up on them as though they

were one's own

OR

- to hold them in abeyance for the time being and not choosing - after

certain considerations - to act them out in perpetuity and

'thoughtlessly'?

 

Is that where consciousness comes in and following that conscience or

moral considerations?

 

And IF there is an 'observer' to all this, a 'witness', how is that

witness/observer present, does the possible presence of the witness

fade or return after fading?

 

What is it, if so, what makes that occur?

 

Another thing... If we, instead of using the word, " MIRROR " neuron,

use the word " ECHO " neuron, we might pick up on a different model and

understanding of this phenomenon, and come up with questions like:

.. Is there a 'fade' effect? (As in the theory of sound: 'attack',

'sustain', 'decay'.

.. Are there built in volume, loudness or intensity controls?

.. Do initial 'impressions' - when they are verbal or auditory they are

called 'engrams' - need to be re-struck like we can strike a bell

again, to stay active?

 

How do we forget?

If we believe that they can be stopped, how do say 'compulsive

actions' or addictions stop, as a result therapy, meditation or

whatever we do to become less driven by or attached to our them?

 

What have we done with those mirror neurons when we deactivated, say,

addiction (if we did if those mirror cells were involved in

creating obsessive compulsive behavior?!

 

Just an hour or so ago, Emmy and myself actually came up with some

answers that after a closer look are still holding... It has to do

with identification, which by itself is GOOD.

There is in principle nothing wrong with identification!!!

 

However when individual identification gets adulterated (from the

Latin ad-alterare) with 'alien' identities that are pressed upon it by

fear and social pressure, the original identification gets tainted or

enveloped by the additional exterior descriptive packaging and turns

into adverse non authentic behavior... the pseudo self or the usual

state of conflict that someone is in, someone who is not 'feeling him

or herself' - who lost touch with their core and does not live

directly from it. The tainting or enveloping is brought about by

verbal sentencing or ambiguous labeling. Emmy especially understands

the dynamics of that adulterating mechanism well, but at this point it

is too late to spell it out at length...

 

But in short (let me try)

- When we say " pig " to the oinking animal that we hold on our lap,

then the word " pig " is not a lie, it is a NOUN, and 'as that' it is

simply a sound that symbolically labels the oinking thing on our lap.

" Pig " means nothing more or less than that what it symbolizes, in

principle there are no secondary meanings to nouns applied this way...

they are 'eigen' labels (German 'eigentlich'), that is what Adam did

so to speak, he simply tagged when he named.

Identification with such a label is not detrimental... it does not

describe it is just a 'sound stamp'.

- BUT... When we have a child on our lap, and we label it with an

ADJECTIVE (one part of a set of dualistic opposites. e.g. good or bad,

or dirty or clean) AND/OR a NOUN which the child may have heard (or

will hear) also labeling another thing say " PIG " or " PAL " or " SQUIRT "

then an self identity conflict is created, as the child will now

identify with ambiguity... eventually, especially after a few repeats,

leading to not feeling him or herself, the identities are confusable.

Identification with such a label IS detrimental... it does describe

and alter (the meaning of 'adulterate'), it is not just a 'sound

stamp', it is something that marks the child as that what it is

actually not... 'being-who-one-is-that-one-is' is then traumatized.

 

How to undo that... how to undo that pseudo ambiguous self (German

'uneigentlich')?

Sitting simply and congruently in oneself (maybe return to the lap and

getting simply and unambiguously relabeled, de-identified and

re-identified) 'unsaying oneself', unsaying the conflicted/conflicting

self-meanings!!!

That is then of course the thing to do... silence, un-wording, erasing

ambiguous labeling.

 

OK to bed...

 

+Wim

 

> On Jan 10, 2006, at 8:59 AM, Wim Borsboom wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/10/science/10mirr.html?th= & emc=th & pagewanted=all

Nisargadatta , " Wim Borsboom "

<wim_borsboom> wrote:

>

> > On Jan 10, 2006, at 8:59 AM, Wim Borsboom wrote:

>

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/10/science/10mirr.html?th= & emc=th & pagewanted=all

>

> Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@e...> wrote:

> > P: Thanks Wim. Since I first read about mirror neurons

> > I thought it was a landmark discovery. This article is

> > very good at bringing its implications to laymen.

>

> It is! And I'm still thankful that you called attention to this topic

> a while ago.

>

> The implications for psychology are enormous, the regular

> understanding of bonding, projection, learning, transference,

> empathy/apathy/empathy, obsession, compulsion, being 'anal' - all that

> and more needs to be reviewed.

> This may even form some basis for seriously discussing legislation to

> limit access to violent depictions in games, films or plays for young

> children now that we may have some physio-biological understanding

> behind the process of almost (?) automatic absorption of what children

> 'see' and thus can (?) act out. How do we create 'control or error's

> or 'checks and balances'? A lot of rethinking is warranted...

>

> Are we ready for a possible paradigm shift in education...

>

> Even some popular notions developed by Piaget, some of his conclusions

> (that I was almost forced to accept when I was studying psychology and

> didactics) need to be thoroughly reviewed. Some of them even became

> urban myths..., and urban myths are so resilient... (Maybe there

> are specialized mirror neurons that turn modeling based on flawed

> thinking when brought forward 'cleverly and craftily' into urban

> mythology.:-)

>

> Can we implant new mirror neurons? Should we?

> Can we replace those neurons that replicated/duplicated less savory or

> less acceptable impressions and thus produced less beneficial social

> behavior? Should we?

> Can we fix the broken neurons? Should we?

> Can we now also find out what actually causes autism and even

> sociopathic or psychopathic behavior?

>

> There is an issue not touched upon in depth yet: is there not a

> certain 'proposal' quality to what mirror neurons replicate/duplicate?

> The way I see it, in humans, there seems to be a choice somewhere in

> the individual to take the impressions seriously and follow up on them

> as though they were one's own OR... to hold them in abeyance for the

> time being and not choosing - after certain considerations - to act

> them out in perpetuity 'thoughtlessly'?

>

> Is that where consciousness or conscience comes in?

> And if there is an 'observer' to all this, a witness, how is that

> witness/observer present, does the possible presence of the witness

fade?

>

> What is it, if so, what makes that occur?

>

> If we, instead of using the word, " MIRROR " neuron, would use the word

> " ECHO " neuron, is there a 'fade' effect? (As in the theory of sound:

> 'attack', 'sustain', 'decay'. Is there volume, loudness or intensity

> control?)

>

> Do initial 'impressions' (when they are verbal, they are called

> 'engrams') need to be rekindled once in a while, to stay active?

>

> How do we forget?

> How do (if we believe that they do) because of' therapy, mediation or

> whatever we do to become less driven and attached) 'compulsive

> actions' stop?

> What have we done with those mirror neurons when we deactivated them

> (if we did , if they were involved in creating obsessive compulsive

> behavior?!

>

> +Wim

>