Guest guest Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 In a message dated 1/11/2006 2:26:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, adithya_comming writes: > In a message dated 1/11/2006 12:34:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, > adithya_comming writes: > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > the Deep Sleep Happens! > > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > yet remain Alert, Aware, Conscious... > the Samadhi happens! > > > > Wonderful! I would not want to devalue your experience of Samadhi, assuming > it is, in fact, your experience, but one returns from Samadhi because the > experiencer remains. Samadhi is not liberation, nor can it cause liberation. > Duality remains the perception. > > Phil Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Phil. I respect and love your freedom to the think the way you think. But, please allow me to make it clear that I am not looking for... any 'liberation' or any 'end of duality'! And, I say that without implying any disrespect! You can think the way you feel fit and needed but, I have no desire for liberation nor do I see... any 'duality' or 'non duality'! .... I AM... that is all I [really] know! .... 'Duality', 'non duality', 'liberation', 'bondage' are just labels and names and simply complicate everything! They require " too much " thinking! I don't [like to] spend my time thinking whether something 'duality' or 'non duality'! But, peace... that is something else! Sat-Chit-Ananda... that is something else! That I can feel... and, that I can wish for my wife, my children, my parents, my brothers, my friends and everyone else! Liberation... I have absolutely No idea [or concern]! 'Non duality'... I will let it lie in the " books " on philosophy! Tell me how to gain and sustain 'peace'... anytime you can and that's all I am really interested in expressing, sharing, teaching and learning! regards, ac. Okay, now I'm confused. You say you have no interest in liberation but only sustained peace and yet liberation IS sustained peace. This is what we've been talking about. Permanent peace, joy, love that nothing and no one can ever take from you. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 In a message dated 1/11/2006 3:12:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, adithya_comming writes: Tell me how to gain and sustain 'peace'... anytime > you can and that's all I am really interested in > expressing, sharing, teaching and learning! > > > regards, > ac. > > > > Okay, now I'm confused. You say you have no interest in liberation but only > sustained peace and yet liberation IS sustained peace. This is what we've > been talking about. Permanent peace, joy, love that nothing and no one can ever > take from you. > > Phil Ok. Then, simply tell me about that [peace, love, joy, Bliss] without attaching the labels like liberation, non duality, nirvana, realization, enlightenment! Labels like these simply complicate the whole thing and cause much confusion! Their use is many times counter-productive as they often lead to quite useless fight/argument/ debates about... whether someone is 'realized' or Not! .... It is quite easily and quite simply understood by peace, joy, bliss and joy that we can all easily elate to and understand. Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, Liberation, Salvation are the labels which have now 'expired' in my view! Just gain Peace... and, sustain it! That's All! [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, enlightenment worry about themselves! They are none of our concerns! ] Regards, ac. Okay, thanks for clarifying where you're 'coming from'. To me, this is how humans talk about things......with concepts. None of the concepts that we offer each other are of any value if the truth is not looked for within the listener because it remains a useless mentation. The funny thing is, I have very little interest in whether anyone accepts or rejects a concept that I jabber about because I'm exploring these concepts for my own benefit. Discussions such as occur on this forum help me to look within myself to find the answers. As limited as those answers may be, they help me to understand, and that understanding leads to the willingness to let go. The mind finally says, okay, I get it now, I'll stop with that nonsense and go on to other nonsense. Anyhoo, I don't know how to discuss why peace is sometimes present and other times not, without using concepts in which you have no interest. I wish you well. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 In a message dated 1/11/2006 4:43:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, adithya_comming writes: > Okay, thanks for clarifying where you're 'coming from'. To me, this is how humans talk about things......with concepts. None of the concepts that we offer each other are of any value if the truth is not looked for within the listener because it remains a useless mentation. The funny thing is, I have very little interest in whether anyone accepts or rejects a concept that I jabber about because I'm exploring these concepts for my own benefit. Discussions such as occur on this forum help me to look within myself to find the answers. As limited as those answers may be, they help me to understand, and that understanding leads to the willingness to let go. The mind finally says, okay, I get it now, I'll stop with that nonsense and go on to other nonsense. > > Anyhoo, I don't know how to discuss why peace is sometimes present and other times not, without using concepts in which you have no interest. I wish you well. > > Phil I don't mean to discourage you, Phil and I don't mean to say that the concepts should never be used. Concepts do have some value in communicating ideas. But, they become a hurdle when we 'attach' ourselves too much to them and start fighting over them in place of being concerned 'only' with the truth they attempt to describe. Religions, sects as well as many spiritual 'debaters' have been doing it for centuries! Further, sometime they can also block the understanding and real communication! The [possible] value of something [possibly] useful may not 'considered' because it is not seen to fit a 'label' that someone finds valuable [and the meaning that person associates to that label]. Consider our first discussion in this thread: I talked about how to achieve total peace [samadhi]... Now... today... any moment... and, you said: Well that is not 'liberation'! Well, who cares? My thought was that you would care because your peace does not remain. You do not care, and this is not a problem for me. My concern is my own liberation. Phil ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 In a message dated 1/11/2006 5:41:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, adithya_comming writes: > I talked about how to achieve total > peace [samadhi]... Now... today... any > moment... > > > and, you said: Well that is not > 'liberation'! > > > Well, who cares? > > > > > My thought was that you would care because your peace does not remain. You > do not care, and this is not a problem for me. My concern is my own liberation. > > Phil Be at peace... and, see if this 'concern' of 'liberation' remains! Be 'concerned' for 'liberation'... and, see if the Peace Remains! .... Alternatively, be Consciously at Total Peace... and, see if there is Anybody that can be 'liberated'! See if there is Anybody who is in 'bondage' Now! Have you done that? If not... let it happen just Once... and See! If yes... tell 'who' can possibly get 'liberated' and 'who' really is in bondage Now! Is the 'concern for liberation' part of that which blocks liberation Now or is it something that 'allows' liberation happen? Further, when talking about something that lasts or not... Ponder a little on the meaning of: There is Only Now! .... 'Who' cares for 'the future'? 'Who' cares for 'all the time'? What is...'all the time'? .... You are either... at peace... Now! or you are Not! What can possibly enable it? - 'concern' for 'liberation', 'non duality' or.... 'non concern' for everything! PS: Please let me know if I am being rude, disrespectful or impolite. That is not my intent. No, you're not being rude. It's fine. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/11/2006 12:34:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, > adithya_comming writes: > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > the Deep Sleep Happens! > > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > yet remain Alert, Aware, Conscious... > the Samadhi happens! > > > > Wonderful! I would not want to devalue your experience of Samadhi, assuming > it is, in fact, your experience, but one returns from Samadhi because the > experiencer remains. Samadhi is not liberation, nor can it cause liberation. > Duality remains the perception. > > Phil Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Phil. I respect and love your freedom to the think the way you think. But, please allow me to make it clear that I am not looking for... any 'liberation' or any 'end of duality'! And, I say that without implying any disrespect! You can think the way you feel fit and needed but, I have no desire for liberation nor do I see... any 'duality' or 'non duality'! .... I AM... that is all I [really] know! .... 'Duality', 'non duality', 'liberation', 'bondage' are just labels and names and simply complicate everything! They require " too much " thinking! I don't [like to] spend my time thinking whether something 'duality' or 'non duality'! But, peace... that is something else! Sat-Chit-Ananda... that is something else! That I can feel... and, that I can wish for my wife, my children, my parents, my brothers, my friends and everyone else! Liberation... I have absolutely No idea [or concern]! 'Non duality'... I will let it lie in the " books " on philosophy! Tell me how to gain and sustain 'peace'... anytime you can and that's all I am really interested in expressing, sharing, teaching and learning! regards, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/11/2006 2:26:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, > adithya_comming writes: > > > In a message dated 1/11/2006 12:34:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > adithya_comming writes: > > > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > > the Deep Sleep Happens! > > > > > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > > yet remain Alert, Aware, Conscious... > > the Samadhi happens! > > > > > > > > Wonderful! I would not want to devalue your experience of Samadhi, > assuming > > it is, in fact, your experience, but one returns from Samadhi > because the > > experiencer remains. Samadhi is not liberation, nor can it cause > liberation. > > Duality remains the perception. > > > > Phil > > > Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Phil. > > I respect and love your freedom to the think > the way you think. > > But, please allow me to make it clear that > I am not looking for... any 'liberation' or > any 'end of duality'! > > And, I say that without implying any > disrespect! > > > You can think the way you feel fit and > needed but, I have no desire for liberation > nor do I see... any 'duality' or 'non duality'! > > ... > > > I AM... > > that is all I [really] know! > > > ... > > > 'Duality', 'non duality', 'liberation', 'bondage' > are just labels and names and simply complicate > everything! > > They require " too much " thinking! > > I don't [like to] spend my time thinking whether > something 'duality' or 'non duality'! > > > But, peace... that is something else! > > Sat-Chit-Ananda... that is something else! > > > That I can feel... > > and, that I can wish for my wife, my children, > my parents, my brothers, my friends and everyone > else! > > > Liberation... I have absolutely No idea [or concern]! > > 'Non duality'... I will let it lie in the " books " on > philosophy! > > Tell me how to gain and sustain 'peace'... anytime > you can and that's all I am really interested in > expressing, sharing, teaching and learning! > > > regards, > ac. > > > > Okay, now I'm confused. You say you have no interest in liberation but only > sustained peace and yet liberation IS sustained peace. This is what we've > been talking about. Permanent peace, joy, love that nothing and no one can ever > take from you. > > Phil Ok. Then, simply tell me about that [peace, love, joy, Bliss] without attaching the labels like liberation, non duality, nirvana, realization, enlightenment! Labels like these simply complicate the whole thing and cause much confusion! Their use is many times counter-productive as they often lead to quite useless fight/argument/ debates about... whether someone is 'realized' or Not! .... It is quite easily and quite simply understood by peace, joy, bliss and joy that we can all easily elate to and understand. Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, Liberation, Salvation are the labels which have now 'expired' in my view! Just gain Peace... and, sustain it! That's All! [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, enlightenment worry about themselves! They are none of our concerns! ] Regards, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 [...] > Just gain Peace... > > and, sustain it! > > That's All! > > > [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, > enlightenment worry about themselves! > > They are none of our concerns! ] > > Regards, > ac. > > > > > Okay, thanks for clarifying where you're 'coming from'. To me, this is how humans talk about things......with concepts. None of the concepts that we offer each other are of any value if the truth is not looked for within the listener because it remains a useless mentation. The funny thing is, I have very little interest in whether anyone accepts or rejects a concept that I jabber about because I'm exploring these concepts for my own benefit. Discussions such as occur on this forum help me to look within myself to find the answers. As limited as those answers may be, they help me to understand, and that understanding leads to the willingness to let go. The mind finally says, okay, I get it now, I'll stop with that nonsense and go on to other nonsense. > > Anyhoo, I don't know how to discuss why peace is sometimes present and other times not, without using concepts in which you have no interest. I wish you well. > > Phil I don't mean to discourage you, Phil and I don't mean to say that the concepts should never be used. Concepts do have some value in communicating ideas. But, they become a hurdle when we 'attach' ourselves too much to them and start fighting over them in place of being concerned 'only' with the truth they attempt to describe. Religions, sects as well as many spiritual 'debaters' have been doing it for centuries! Further, sometime they can also block the understanding and real communication! The [possible] value of something [possibly] useful may not 'considered' because it is not seen to fit a 'label' that someone finds valuable [and the meaning that person associates to that label]. Consider our first discussion in this thread: I talked about how to achieve total peace [samadhi]... Now... today... any moment... and, you said: Well that is not 'liberation'! Well, who cares? ..... Be peaceful now... Be peaceful today... Be peaceful anytime you want... Be peaceful and See 'who' remains [and 'Why'] to care for any 'liberation'! See for 'whom' the liberation is! See 'who' really 'claims' to be interested in 'liberation', 'nirvana', 'end of duality' and the rest of it! See 'who' is 'waiting' to be liberated! Say 'who' 'wants' 'freedom' and, see if it TRULY wants it or if it is simply using it as an 'excuse'! As an excuse to 'keep running' now! An 'excuse' to not be free Now! An excuse to not be at peace... Now! Be at Peace... and, See! regards, ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 [...] > I talked about how to achieve total > peace [samadhi]... Now... today... any > moment... > > > and, you said: Well that is not > 'liberation'! > > > Well, who cares? > > > > > My thought was that you would care because your peace does not remain. You > do not care, and this is not a problem for me. My concern is my own liberation. > > Phil Be at peace... and, see if this 'concern' of 'liberation' remains! Be 'concerned' for 'liberation'... and, see if the Peace Remains! .... Alternatively, be Consciously at Total Peace... and, see if there is Anybody that can be 'liberated'! See if there is Anybody who is in 'bondage' Now! Have you done that? If not... let it happen just Once... and See! If yes... tell 'who' can possibly get 'liberated' and 'who' really is in bondage Now! Is the 'concern for liberation' part of that which blocks liberation Now or is it something that 'allows' liberation happen? Further, when talking about something that lasts or not... Ponder a little on the meaning of: There is Only Now! .... 'Who' cares for 'the future'? 'Who' cares for 'all the time'? What is...'all the time'? .... You are either... at peace... Now! or you are Not! What can possibly enable it? - 'concern' for 'liberation', 'non duality' or.... 'non concern' for everything! PS: Please let me know if I am being rude, disrespectful or impolite. That is not my intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 In a message dated 1/12/2006 10:53:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, s.petersilge writes: Phil, you wrote: >My thought was that you would care because your peace does not >remain. You do not care, and this is not a problem for me. My concern >is my own liberation. Great discussion, thank you, both. For your effort and your authenticity. Phil, I would like to ask you something: you say your concern is liberation. Liberation from what? Just now somebody quoted Nisargadatta: " By knowing what you are not, you come to know your Self. " So, lets ask: are you the one who is in some kind of bondage and seeks liberation? LoLiLa Stefan Liberation of the ego self is dissolution of the ego self. We both know this. Am I misunderstanding your question? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Phil, you wrote: >My thought was that you would care because your peace does not >remain. You do not care, and this is not a problem for me. My concern >is my own liberation. Great discussion, thank you, both. For your effort and your authenticity. Phil, I would like to ask you something: you say your concern is liberation. Liberation from what? Just now somebody quoted Nisargadatta: " By knowing what you are not, you come to know your Self. " So, lets ask: are you the one who is in some kind of bondage and seeks liberation? LoLiLa Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 In a message dated 1/12/2006 3:34:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, s.petersilge writes: >Stefan: >Just now somebody quoted Nisargadatta: > " By knowing what you are not, you come to know your Self. " > >So, lets ask: are you the one who is in some kind of bondage and >seeks liberation? >Phil: >Liberation of the ego self is dissolution of the ego self. We both >know this. Am I misunderstanding your question? I will try to explain. Inquiring what you are not, you may discover that you are not the " ego/self " . Hence the question. Once this is clear it is unnecessary (and in fact makes no sense) to seek liberation from it. It is like if somebody thinks he is a slave and locked in a prison. For years and years he searches for all kind of solutions to break the door. He is completely accustomed to this kind of life, being imprisoned and seeking liberation becomes the purpose of his life. But only when he considers the possibility that this whole idea was wrong will he try and find the door unlocked. And there are no guards outside. Imagine how he feels when he discovers that he was free all the time. Nisargadatta has said: " After all, liberation is but the freedom to discover. " Haha! Maybe this sounds to you as if I am splitting hairs. In fact we are not far apart, as I understood you from other postings. But I feel, through the use of concepts like " liberation from ego/self " the focus still remains on the false and even nourishes it. Only by identifying the false it loses its grip and the focus can turn back to that which one already is and always was. Greetings Stefan Yeah, I understand what you're saying. First of all, how does one speak of wanting freedom when freedom has not been realized, without opening oneself up to such questions as 'Who is this who wants freedom?' or 'As long as you want freedom, you decide that it's not present'. I understand the concepts and their limitations and foolishness and yet this is what we're left to work with in any discussion. I see believing as very different from knowing. Beliefs are just mental constructs about what seems to make rational sense, usually skewed by various fears and desires. Do I believe that mind/ego is just an illusion sourced in the singular consciousness that we all are? Yes. Do I know this to be so? Clearly not, or I wouldn't continue to see myself as the separate individual that, for all intents and purposes, I appear to be. What's clear is that I continue to identify myself as ego. It's necessary, therefore, that I begin from there, and not from where my concepts tell me I should be. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 >Stefan: >Just now somebody quoted Nisargadatta: > " By knowing what you are not, you come to know your Self. " > >So, lets ask: are you the one who is in some kind of bondage and >seeks liberation? >Phil: >Liberation of the ego self is dissolution of the ego self. We both >know this. Am I misunderstanding your question? I will try to explain. Inquiring what you are not, you may discover that you are not the " ego/self " . Hence the question. Once this is clear it is unnecessary (and in fact makes no sense) to seek liberation from it. It is like if somebody thinks he is a slave and locked in a prison. For years and years he searches for all kind of solutions to break the door. He is completely accustomed to this kind of life, being imprisoned and seeking liberation becomes the purpose of his life. But only when he considers the possibility that this whole idea was wrong will he try and find the door unlocked. And there are no guards outside. Imagine how he feels when he discovers that he was free all the time. Nisargadatta has said: " After all, liberation is but the freedom to discover. " Haha! Maybe this sounds to you as if I am splitting hairs. In fact we are not far apart, as I understood you from other postings. But I feel, through the use of concepts like " liberation from ego/self " the focus still remains on the false and even nourishes it. Only by identifying the false it loses its grip and the focus can turn back to that which one already is and always was. Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 Hi Phil, nice to talk to you. I hope it is ok that I just quote a part of what you wrote, which I would like to comment: >Do I believe that mind/ego is just an illusion sourced in the >singular consciousness that we all are? Yes. >Do I know this to be so? Clearly not, or I wouldn't continue >to see myself as the separate individual that, for all intents >and purposes, I appear to be. What's clear is that I continue >to identify myself as ego. It's necessary, therefore, that I >begin from there, and not from where my concepts tell me I >should be. How do you know that you are not creating another concept? What is wrong with your ego? If you could not see yourself as a separate individual you could not even eat. It is a magic talent! That which you truly are is not in conflict with this talent. It is embracing everything. The problem is the belief: " it is just an illusion " . It entangles one into inner conflicts, because obviously the so called " illusion " is part of experience. It is like when you see a mirage. The mirage exists and can be watched. There is only a problem if someone thinks it can quench thirst. Then the disappointed seeker turns to the belief: " it is just an illusion! " . Such a belief leads to conflicts, because the mirage obviously does exist. All that is needed is to see the mirage as what it is. Then it can be enjoyed and everything is at ease. Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 In a message dated 1/13/2006 3:24:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, s.petersilge writes: Hi Phil, nice to talk to you. I hope it is ok that I just quote a part of what you wrote, which I would like to comment: >Do I believe that mind/ego is just an illusion sourced in the >singular consciousness that we all are? Yes. >Do I know this to be so? Clearly not, or I wouldn't continue >to see myself as the separate individual that, for all intents >and purposes, I appear to be. What's clear is that I continue >to identify myself as ego. It's necessary, therefore, that I >begin from there, and not from where my concepts tell me I >should be. How do you know that you are not creating another concept? What is wrong with your ego? If you could not see yourself as a separate individual you could not even eat. It is a magic talent! That which you truly are is not in conflict with this talent. It is embracing everything. The problem is the belief: " it is just an illusion " . It entangles one into inner conflicts, because obviously the so called " illusion " is part of experience. It is like when you see a mirage. The mirage exists and can be watched. There is only a problem if someone thinks it can quench thirst. Then the disappointed seeker turns to the belief: " it is just an illusion! " . Such a belief leads to conflicts, because the mirage obviously does exist. All that is needed is to see the mirage as what it is. Then it can be enjoyed and everything is at ease. Greetings Stefan Yes. I'm not struggling with the illusion. It's fine just as it is. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/13/2006 3:24:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, > s.petersilge@o... writes: > > Hi Phil, nice to talk to you. I hope it is ok that I just quote a part > of what you wrote, which I would like to comment: > > >Do I believe that mind/ego is just an illusion sourced in the > >singular consciousness that we all are? Yes. > >Do I know this to be so? Clearly not, or I wouldn't continue > >to see myself as the separate individual that, for all intents > >and purposes, I appear to be. What's clear is that I continue > >to identify myself as ego. It's necessary, therefore, that I > >begin from there, and not from where my concepts tell me I > >should be. > > How do you know that you are not creating another concept? What is > wrong with your ego? If you could not see yourself as a separate > individual you could not even eat. It is a magic talent! That which > you truly are is not in conflict with this talent. It is embracing > everything. The problem is the belief: " it is just an illusion " . It > entangles one into inner conflicts, because obviously the so called > " illusion " is part of experience. > > It is like when you see a mirage. The mirage exists and can be > watched. There is only a problem if someone thinks it can quench > thirst. Then the disappointed seeker turns to the belief: " it is just > an illusion! " . Such a belief leads to conflicts, because the mirage > obviously does exist. All that is needed is to see the mirage as what > it is. Then it can be enjoyed and everything is at ease. > > Greetings > Stefan > > > > > Yes. I'm not struggling with the illusion. It's fine just as it is. > > Phil I raise the question: Who gives the so-called 'Grand Illusion' its meaning? Does this Illusion seem to mean pretty much the same to most people? Or does it have a different meaning for each individual sense-perceiever on earth? What's it like to be a goldfish living in a round glass bowl on somebody's kitchen counter? Does the goldfish have a goldfish world of its own? Is there an orangutang world, giraff world, shark world, human world? What kind of Illusion are we each personally living in? Are there no others except me? I see other people in my world that look as human to me as I do. I classify myself as a human. Okay, so now what? I forget what I was talking about. Oh, yeah. Meaning. Do I alone give the meaning to my Illusion? What if nothing means anything? In other words, what if everything means nothing? This leads me to ponder, what if nothing means everything? The meaning I give to each object I see in my Illusion is the meaning I have accepted as true because someone told me so and I believed that person, whether mother, father, teacher, or self. In the end, I have sole responsibility for how I interpret my Illusion. I am sure that I am even responsible for the meaning I give to all these other people I see in my Illusion. Are they real? Or not? It's like the wave/particle issue in Particle Physics. Is it a wave or is it a particle? Is it a plane or is it Superman? I have no idea how Superman got in there. Where was I? What the hell am I even talking about? I've given it all the meaning it has for me personally. Only I could know exactly what I mean when I'm communicating with others who I only think are there. How do I know you're real? For all I know, you could be just a part of my Illusion. But I can't deny you existence, for by doing so I would only be denying existence to myself. How do I know I even exist? Duh! As if?! That is the silliest question one could put to oneself. How do you know you exist? Is'nt that silly? Funny question. And yet, I believe I've read somewhere about how some people actually do believe that they don't really exist! I believe there's a few right here on this list, in fact. Raise your hand if you don't believe you exist. Okay, now how many of you believe you do exist? Task: Find out how you got to believing all the things you believe in, including your belief that you have existence or not. " Silver " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > >Yes. I'm not struggling with the illusion. It's fine just as it is. Thats great, Phil! But I went one step further and said: there is no illusion. To call the mirage an illusion means creating another concept, another belief. It means exchanging one belief for another. But everything is as it is. The mirage simply is a mirage. If everything is embraced equally then there is no need for concepts like illusion and liberation. Then there is just the natural state. Ordinary. It is not a higher state, it does not avard one with privileges like a university degree. We all are already in that state. It is the only state that exists. It simply has to be accepted. But as long as one expects peace, bliss, love... and all that has to be lasting of course... he is hunting his own tail and may do so forever. What is peace? Everybody experiences his little peace from time to time, but he might find himself in the midst of war the next moment. But what has all this to do with truth? What do we want: truth or wonderful higher states? If we really want truth then we have to be ready to accept whatever we find. We can stop to ponder and fathom at any moment and instead look for what is. (But it might be different from what we expect :-))) LiLaLo Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 A refreshing posting, Silver! Like bathing in champagne! May I add something to your last sentence: >Task: Find out how you got to believing all the things you believe >in, including your belief that you have existence or not. My existence will probably cease before the task can be completely fulfilled, so the problem will solve itself. :-))) LaLoLi Stefan Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-1069@h...> wrote: > I raise the question: Who gives the so-called 'Grand Illusion' its > meaning? Does this Illusion seem to mean pretty much the same to > most people? Or does it have a different meaning for each individual > sense-perceiever on earth? What's it like to be a goldfish living in > a round glass bowl on somebody's kitchen counter? Does the goldfish > have a goldfish world of its own? Is there an orangutang world, > giraff world, shark world, human world? What kind of Illusion are we > each personally living in? Are there no others except me? I see > other people in my world that look as human to me as I do. I > classify myself as a human. Okay, so now what? I forget what I was > talking about. > > Oh, yeah. Meaning. Do I alone give the meaning to my Illusion? > What if nothing means anything? In other words, what if everything > means nothing? This leads me to ponder, what if nothing means > everything? The meaning I give to each object I see in my Illusion > is the meaning I have accepted as true because someone told me so and > I believed that person, whether mother, father, teacher, or self. In > the end, I have sole responsibility for how I interpret my Illusion. > I am sure that I am even responsible for the meaning I give to all > these other people I see in my Illusion. Are they real? Or not? > It's like the wave/particle issue in Particle Physics. Is it a wave > or is it a particle? Is it a plane or is it Superman? > > I have no idea how Superman got in there. Where was I? What the > hell am I even talking about? I've given it all the meaning it has > for me personally. Only I could know exactly what I mean when I'm > communicating with others who I only think are there. How do I know > you're real? For all I know, you could be just a part of my Illusion. > > But I can't deny you existence, for by doing so I would only be > denying existence to myself. How do I know I even exist? > > Duh! As if?! That is the silliest question one could put to > oneself. How do you know you exist? Is'nt that silly? Funny > question. And yet, I believe I've read somewhere about how some > people actually do believe that they don't really exist! I believe > there's a few right here on this list, in fact. Raise your hand if > you don't believe you exist. Okay, now how many of you believe you > do exist? > > Task: Find out how you got to believing all the things you believe > in, including your belief that you have existence or not. > > " Silver " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 In a message dated 1/14/2006 4:51:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, s.petersilge writes: >Yes. I'm not struggling with the illusion. It's fine just as it is. Thats great, Phil! But I went one step further and said: there is no illusion. To call the mirage an illusion means creating another concept, another belief. It means exchanging one belief for another. But everything is as it is. The mirage simply is a mirage. If everything is embraced equally then there is no need for concepts like illusion and liberation. Then there is just the natural state. Ordinary. It is not a higher state, it does not avard one with privileges like a university degree. We all are already in that state. It is the only state that exists. It simply has to be accepted. But as long as one expects peace, bliss, love... and all that has to be lasting of course... he is hunting his own tail and may do so forever. What is peace? Everybody experiences his little peace from time to time, but he might find himself in the midst of war the next moment. But what has all this to do with truth? What do we want: truth or wonderful higher states? If we really want truth then we have to be ready to accept whatever we find. We can stop to ponder and fathom at any moment and instead look for what is. (But it might be different from what we expect :-))) LiLaLo Stefan Okay. I don't know that there's a point of disagreement between us, Stephan. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 In a message dated 1/14/2006 10:11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, nli10u writes: >Yes. I'm not struggling with the illusion. It's fine just as it is. Thats great, Phil! But I went one step further and said: there is no illusion. To call the mirage an illusion means creating another concept, another belief. It means exchanging one belief for another. But everything is as it is. The mirage simply is a mirage. If everything is embraced equally then there is no need for concepts like illusion and liberation. Then there is just the natural state. Ordinary. It is not a higher state, it does not avard one with privileges like a university degree. We all are already in that state. It is the only state that exists. It simply has to be accepted. But as long as one expects peace, bliss, love... and all that has to be lasting of course... he is hunting his own tail and may do so forever. What is peace? Everybody experiences his little peace from time to time, but he might find himself in the midst of war the next moment. But what has all this to do with truth? What do we want: truth or wonderful higher states? If we really want truth then we have to be ready to accept whatever we find. We can stop to ponder and fathom at any moment and instead look for what is. (But it might be different from what we expect :-))) LiLaLo Stefan Okay. I don't know that there's a point of disagreement between us, Stephan. Phil ana bows to Phil takiing off his Stefan suit after ana takes off her ordinary suit ;-) and finds Stefan.peeling away Phil Nice skin we're in...;-) Do ya think it's proper that we're all standing around naked like this?! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 In a message dated 1/14/2006 10:11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, nli10u writes: > We can stop to ponder and fathom at any moment and instead look for > what is. (But it might be different from what we expect :-))) > > LiLaLo > And it might not. But either way, at least you can stop looking and speculating. What a relief to finally relax, let go and get happy. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 - ADHHUB Nisargadatta Sunday, January 15, 2006 12:10 AM Re: Re: The Secret / Phil. In a message dated 1/14/2006 4:51:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, s.petersilge writes: >Yes. I'm not struggling with the illusion. It's fine just as it is. Thats great, Phil! But I went one step further and said: there is no illusion. To call the mirage an illusion means creating another concept, another belief. It means exchanging one belief for another. But everything is as it is. The mirage simply is a mirage. If everything is embraced equally then there is no need for concepts like illusion and liberation. Then there is just the natural state. Ordinary. It is not a higher state, it does not avard one with privileges like a university degree. We all are already in that state. It is the only state that exists. It simply has to be accepted. But as long as one expects peace, bliss, love... and all that has to be lasting of course... he is hunting his own tail and may do so forever. What is peace? Everybody experiences his little peace from time to time, but he might find himself in the midst of war the next moment. But what has all this to do with truth? What do we want: truth or wonderful higher states? If we really want truth then we have to be ready to accept whatever we find. We can stop to ponder and fathom at any moment and instead look for what is. (But it might be different from what we expect :-))) LiLaLo Stefan Okay. I don't know that there's a point of disagreement between us, Stephan. Phil ana bows to Phil takiing off his Stefan suit after ana takes off her ordinary suit ;-) and finds Stefan.peeling away Phil Nice skin we're in...;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 In a message dated 1/14/2006 10:17:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, ADHHUB writes: > Okay. > I don't know that there's a point of disagreement between us, Stephan. > > Phil > > > ana bows to Phil takiing off his Stefan suit after ana takes off her > ordinary suit ;-) and finds Stefan.peeling away Phil > > Nice skin we're in...;-) > > > > > > Do ya think it's proper that we're all standing around naked like this?! > > Phil > > If you were really naked, there wouldn't be anyone here at all. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 As in DEATH, you mean?!? Wait a minute. You don't really believe you're gonna' die, do 'ya? " Silver " Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> wrote: > > A refreshing posting, Silver! Like bathing in champagne! May I add > something to your last sentence: > > >Task: Find out how you got to believing all the things you believe > >in, including your belief that you have existence or not. > > My existence will probably cease before the task can be completely > fulfilled, so the problem will solve itself. :-))) > > LaLoLi > Stefan > > Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " > <silver-1069@h...> wrote: > > > I raise the question: Who gives the so-called 'Grand Illusion' its > > meaning? Does this Illusion seem to mean pretty much the same to > > most people? Or does it have a different meaning for each individual > > sense-perceiever on earth? What's it like to be a goldfish living in > > a round glass bowl on somebody's kitchen counter? Does the goldfish > > have a goldfish world of its own? Is there an orangutang world, > > giraff world, shark world, human world? What kind of Illusion are we > > each personally living in? Are there no others except me? I see > > other people in my world that look as human to me as I do. I > > classify myself as a human. Okay, so now what? I forget what I was > > talking about. > > > > Oh, yeah. Meaning. Do I alone give the meaning to my Illusion? > > What if nothing means anything? In other words, what if everything > > means nothing? This leads me to ponder, what if nothing means > > everything? The meaning I give to each object I see in my Illusion > > is the meaning I have accepted as true because someone told me so and > > I believed that person, whether mother, father, teacher, or self. In > > the end, I have sole responsibility for how I interpret my Illusion. > > I am sure that I am even responsible for the meaning I give to all > > these other people I see in my Illusion. Are they real? Or not? > > It's like the wave/particle issue in Particle Physics. Is it a wave > > or is it a particle? Is it a plane or is it Superman? > > > > I have no idea how Superman got in there. Where was I? What the > > hell am I even talking about? I've given it all the meaning it has > > for me personally. Only I could know exactly what I mean when I'm > > communicating with others who I only think are there. How do I know > > you're real? For all I know, you could be just a part of my Illusion. > > > > But I can't deny you existence, for by doing so I would only be > > denying existence to myself. How do I know I even exist? > > > > Duh! As if?! That is the silliest question one could put to > > oneself. How do you know you exist? Is'nt that silly? Funny > > question. And yet, I believe I've read somewhere about how some > > people actually do believe that they don't really exist! I believe > > there's a few right here on this list, in fact. Raise your hand if > > you don't believe you exist. Okay, now how many of you believe you > > do exist? > > > > Task: Find out how you got to believing all the things you believe > > in, including your belief that you have existence or not. > > > > " Silver " > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Nisargadatta , " s_i_l_v_e_r1069 " <silver-1069@h...> wrote: > >As in DEATH, you mean?!? > >Wait a minute. You don't really believe you're gonna' die, do 'ya? well, I am not so much into beliefs, but there already has been more than one person whom I had to watch being rappelled down into a grave, neetly packed into a coffin, and until now none of them ever showed up again... :-) Stefan >Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@o...> >wrote: >> >>A refreshing posting, Silver! Like bathing in champagne! May I add >> something to your last sentence: >> >> >Task: Find out how you got to believing all the things you believe >> >in, including your belief that you have existence or not. >> >> My existence will probably cease before the task can be completely >> fulfilled, so the problem will solve itself. :-))) >> >> LaLoLi >> Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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