Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 In a message dated 1/12/2006 12:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, dennis_travis33 writes: > Ok. Then, simply tell me about that [peace, > love, joy, Bliss] without attaching the labels like > liberation, non duality, nirvana, realization, > enlightenment! Labels like these simply > complicate the whole thing and cause much > confusion! > > > Their use is many times counter-productive as > they often lead to quite useless fight/argument/ > debates about... whether someone is 'realized' > or Not! > > ... > > It is quite easily and quite simply understood > by peace, joy, bliss and joy that we can all > easily elate to and understand. > > Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, Liberation, > Salvation are the labels which have now 'expired' > in my view! > > > Just gain Peace... > > and, sustain it! > > That's All! > > > [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, > enlightenment worry about themselves! > > They are none of our concerns! ] > > > > Regards, > ac. ac, why you don't believe that Phil has not the peace.....exactly same than the one you are talking about....? does it matter on which path one come to peace....? do you believe that your experienced past is the only possible way to feel peace....now....? do you believe that Phil don't wish this same peace....to everybody......just like you do......? what is your problem....?....if not, maybe, your ego-mind.....which pass for the moment....a little period of emotions.....a peaceless period........which will pass again.....with the next " wave " of peace.....you will feel....after it had happened.... Marc Just as a general comment, not necessarily directed toward our friend, experiences of deep peace brought about through meditation are, of course, dualistic experiences, and therefore are generally followed by something that is decidedly not peaceful. This is the nature of all dualistic experience and cannot be avoided. This can set folks on a roller coaster ride as they try to find a way to make a dualistic experience permanent. Of course, it can't be done. What's occurring here, which I'm guessing you can identify with, Marc, is a detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other than it is. To the degree that this is done, the peace/non-peace game is simply not played, and this is a source of constant peace that isn't determined by anything that occurs, or doesn't occur , within the illusion. It may not be as powerful as a peak experience at this point, but it never leaves me entirely. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 1/11/2006 2:26:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > adithya_comming writes: > > > > > In a message dated 1/11/2006 12:34:26 PM Pacific Standard > Time, > > > adithya_comming writes: > > > > > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > > > the Deep Sleep Happens! > > > > > > > > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > > > yet remain Alert, Aware, Conscious... > > > the Samadhi happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > Wonderful! I would not want to devalue your experience of > Samadhi, > > assuming > > > it is, in fact, your experience, but one returns from Samadhi > > because the > > > experiencer remains. Samadhi is not liberation, nor can it > cause > > liberation. > > > Duality remains the perception. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Phil. > > > > I respect and love your freedom to the think > > the way you think. > > > > But, please allow me to make it clear that > > I am not looking for... any 'liberation' or > > any 'end of duality'! > > > > And, I say that without implying any > > disrespect! > > > > > > You can think the way you feel fit and > > needed but, I have no desire for liberation > > nor do I see... any 'duality' or 'non duality'! > > > > ... > > > > > > I AM... > > > > that is all I [really] know! > > > > > > ... > > > > > > 'Duality', 'non duality', 'liberation', 'bondage' > > are just labels and names and simply complicate > > everything! > > > > They require " too much " thinking! > > > > I don't [like to] spend my time thinking whether > > something 'duality' or 'non duality'! > > > > > > But, peace... that is something else! > > > > Sat-Chit-Ananda... that is something else! > > > > > > That I can feel... > > > > and, that I can wish for my wife, my children, > > my parents, my brothers, my friends and everyone > > else! > > > > > > Liberation... I have absolutely No idea [or concern]! > > > > 'Non duality'... I will let it lie in the " books " on > > philosophy! > > > > Tell me how to gain and sustain 'peace'... anytime > > you can and that's all I am really interested in > > expressing, sharing, teaching and learning! > > > > > > regards, > > ac. > > > > > > > > Okay, now I'm confused. You say you have no interest in liberation > but only > > sustained peace and yet liberation IS sustained peace. This is > what we've > > been talking about. Permanent peace, joy, love that nothing and no > one can ever > > take from you. > > > > Phil > > Ok. Then, simply tell me about that [peace, > love, joy, Bliss] without attaching the labels like > liberation, non duality, nirvana, realization, > enlightenment! Labels like these simply > complicate the whole thing and cause much > confusion! > > > Their use is many times counter-productive as > they often lead to quite useless fight/argument/ > debates about... whether someone is 'realized' > or Not! > > ... > > It is quite easily and quite simply understood > by peace, joy, bliss and joy that we can all > easily elate to and understand. > > Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, Liberation, > Salvation are the labels which have now 'expired' > in my view! > > > Just gain Peace... > > and, sustain it! > > That's All! > > > [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, > enlightenment worry about themselves! > > They are none of our concerns! ] > > > > Regards, > ac. ac, why you don't believe that Phil has not the peace.....exactly same than the one you are talking about....? does it matter on which path one come to peace....? do you believe that your experienced past is the only possible way to feel peace....now....? do you believe that Phil don't wish this same peace....to everybody......just like you do......? what is your problem....?....if not, maybe, your ego-mind.....which pass for the moment....a little period of emotions.....a peaceless period........which will pass again.....with the next " wave " of peace.....you will feel....after it had happened.... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 1/11/2006 2:26:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > > adithya_comming writes: > > > > > > > In a message dated 1/11/2006 12:34:26 PM Pacific Standard > > Time, > > > > adithya_comming writes: > > > > > > > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > > > > the Deep Sleep Happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > When you allow yourself to relax, let go... > > > > yet remain Alert, Aware, Conscious... > > > > the Samadhi happens! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wonderful! I would not want to devalue your experience of > > Samadhi, > > > assuming > > > > it is, in fact, your experience, but one returns from Samadhi > > > because the > > > > experiencer remains. Samadhi is not liberation, nor can it > > cause > > > liberation. > > > > Duality remains the perception. > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Phil. > > > > > > I respect and love your freedom to the think > > > the way you think. > > > > > > But, please allow me to make it clear that > > > I am not looking for... any 'liberation' or > > > any 'end of duality'! > > > > > > And, I say that without implying any > > > disrespect! > > > > > > > > > You can think the way you feel fit and > > > needed but, I have no desire for liberation > > > nor do I see... any 'duality' or 'non duality'! > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > I AM... > > > > > > that is all I [really] know! > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > 'Duality', 'non duality', 'liberation', 'bondage' > > > are just labels and names and simply complicate > > > everything! > > > > > > They require " too much " thinking! > > > > > > I don't [like to] spend my time thinking whether > > > something 'duality' or 'non duality'! > > > > > > > > > But, peace... that is something else! > > > > > > Sat-Chit-Ananda... that is something else! > > > > > > > > > That I can feel... > > > > > > and, that I can wish for my wife, my children, > > > my parents, my brothers, my friends and everyone > > > else! > > > > > > > > > Liberation... I have absolutely No idea [or concern]! > > > > > > 'Non duality'... I will let it lie in the " books " on > > > philosophy! > > > > > > Tell me how to gain and sustain 'peace'... anytime > > > you can and that's all I am really interested in > > > expressing, sharing, teaching and learning! > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > ac. > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, now I'm confused. You say you have no interest in > liberation > > but only > > > sustained peace and yet liberation IS sustained peace. This is > > what we've > > > been talking about. Permanent peace, joy, love that nothing and > no > > one can ever > > > take from you. > > > > > > Phil > > > > Ok. Then, simply tell me about that [peace, > > love, joy, Bliss] without attaching the labels like > > liberation, non duality, nirvana, realization, > > enlightenment! Labels like these simply > > complicate the whole thing and cause much > > confusion! > > > > > > Their use is many times counter-productive as > > they often lead to quite useless fight/argument/ > > debates about... whether someone is 'realized' > > or Not! > > > > ... > > > > It is quite easily and quite simply understood > > by peace, joy, bliss and joy that we can all > > easily elate to and understand. > > > > Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, Liberation, > > Salvation are the labels which have now 'expired' > > in my view! > > > > > > Just gain Peace... > > > > and, sustain it! > > > > That's All! > > > > > > [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, > > enlightenment worry about themselves! > > > > They are none of our concerns! ] > > > > > > > > Regards, > > ac. > > ac, > > why you don't believe that Phil has not the peace.....exactly same > than the one you are talking about....? > > does it matter on which path one come to peace....? > > do you believe that your experienced past is the only possible way to > feel peace....now....? > > do you believe that Phil don't wish this same peace....to > everybody......just like you do......? > > what is your problem....?....if not, maybe, your ego-mind.....which > pass for the moment....a little period of emotions.....a peaceless > period........which will pass again.....with the next " wave " of > peace.....you will feel....after it had happened.... > > Marc sorry....little mistake... should be: > " why you don't believe that Phil has the peace.....exactly same > than the one you are talking about....? " (but ok, sure....how could one " confuse " a peaceful mind.....) Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/12/2006 12:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, > dennis_travis33 writes: > > > Ok. Then, simply tell me about that [peace, > > love, joy, Bliss] without attaching the labels like > > liberation, non duality, nirvana, realization, > > enlightenment! Labels like these simply > > complicate the whole thing and cause much > > confusion! > > > > > > Their use is many times counter-productive as > > they often lead to quite useless fight/argument/ > > debates about... whether someone is 'realized' > > or Not! > > > > ... > > > > It is quite easily and quite simply understood > > by peace, joy, bliss and joy that we can all > > easily elate to and understand. > > > > Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, Liberation, > > Salvation are the labels which have now 'expired' > > in my view! > > > > > > Just gain Peace... > > > > and, sustain it! > > > > That's All! > > > > > > [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, > > enlightenment worry about themselves! > > > > They are none of our concerns! ] > > > > > > > > Regards, > > ac. > > ac, > > why you don't believe that Phil has not the peace.....exactly same > than the one you are talking about....? > > does it matter on which path one come to peace....? > > do you believe that your experienced past is the only possible way to > feel peace....now....? > > do you believe that Phil don't wish this same peace....to > everybody......just like you do......? > > what is your problem....?....if not, maybe, your ego- mind.....which > pass for the moment....a little period of emotions.....a peaceless > period........which will pass again.....with the next " wave " of > peace.....you will feel....after it had happened.... > > Marc > > > > > Just as a general comment, not necessarily directed toward our friend, > experiences of deep peace brought about through meditation are, of course, > dualistic experiences, and therefore are generally followed by something that is > decidedly not peaceful. This is the nature of all dualistic experience and > cannot be avoided. This can set folks on a roller coaster ride as they try to find > a way to make a dualistic experience permanent. Of course, it can't be done. > > What's occurring here, which I'm guessing you can identify with, Marc, is a > detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other than it is. > To the degree that this is done, the peace/non-peace game is simply not > played, and this is a source of constant peace that isn't determined by anything > that occurs, or doesn't occur , within the illusion. It may not be as powerful > as a peak experience at this point, but it never leaves me entirely. > > Phil Hi Phil, yes.....the meditation " experiences " that you describe are not the " peace " we are writing about..... i agree that what " happen " between the meditations....can be far away from any peaceful and ....so so, non-dual activities meditations, i believe....on a certain path....are necessary..... meditations can help to come over the ego-mind " experience " ...... can help to get in touch with truth.....and so, on the path, to just be...what one ever have been.....without having had " known " before yes...the peace, that i (we) discuss this days about is what you write.... > " detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other than it is. " .... i started to write about " witness " ....recently..... slowly an awareness about this " witness " .....and so the " relative " view of ....appearences....by myself.....dissolve it's difficult to talk about this....it's not an " experience " .....it's not a theorie or concept.......it's about a real relationship to this witness....which let appear the world....and myself.....this " Marc " .......as what it Is.....and nothing else.... so this peace.....is the peace that i have....with the " witness " .....or the Self...... sorry if my words appear confusing....i can't describe realy this my peace....... (and i even thought about that the time ...to write many things.....here......will be finished.......because of some " misunderstandings " .....concerning this) but like you told before....it's all about the peace.. ...to be Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 beware you guys, this way you are going to become Enlightened! Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 1/12/2006 12:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > dennis_travis33 writes: > > > > > Ok. Then, simply tell me about that [peace, > > > love, joy, Bliss] without attaching the labels like > > > liberation, non duality, nirvana, realization, > > > enlightenment! Labels like these simply > > > complicate the whole thing and cause much > > > confusion! > > > > > > > > > Their use is many times counter-productive as > > > they often lead to quite useless fight/argument/ > > > debates about... whether someone is 'realized' > > > or Not! > > > > > > ... > > > > > > It is quite easily and quite simply understood > > > by peace, joy, bliss and joy that we can all > > > easily elate to and understand. > > > > > > Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, Liberation, > > > Salvation are the labels which have now 'expired' > > > in my view! > > > > > > > > > Just gain Peace... > > > > > > and, sustain it! > > > > > > That's All! > > > > > > > > > [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, > > > enlightenment worry about themselves! > > > > > > They are none of our concerns! ] > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > ac. > > > > ac, > > > > why you don't believe that Phil has not the peace.....exactly same > > than the one you are talking about....? > > > > does it matter on which path one come to peace....? > > > > do you believe that your experienced past is the only possible way > to > > feel peace....now....? > > > > do you believe that Phil don't wish this same peace....to > > everybody......just like you do......? > > > > what is your problem....?....if not, maybe, your ego- > mind.....which > > pass for the moment....a little period of emotions.....a peaceless > > period........which will pass again.....with the next " wave " of > > peace.....you will feel....after it had happened.... > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > Just as a general comment, not necessarily directed toward our > friend, > > experiences of deep peace brought about through meditation are, of > course, > > dualistic experiences, and therefore are generally followed by > something that is > > decidedly not peaceful. This is the nature of all dualistic > experience and > > cannot be avoided. This can set folks on a roller coaster ride as > they try to find > > a way to make a dualistic experience permanent. Of course, it can't > be done. > > > > What's occurring here, which I'm guessing you can identify with, > Marc, is a > > detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other > than it is. > > To the degree that this is done, the peace/non-peace game is > simply not > > played, and this is a source of constant peace that isn't > determined by anything > > that occurs, or doesn't occur , within the illusion. It may not be > as powerful > > as a peak experience at this point, but it never leaves me > entirely. > > > > Phil > > Hi Phil, > > yes.....the meditation " experiences " that you describe are not > the " peace " we are writing about..... > i agree that what " happen " between the meditations....can be far away > from any peaceful and ....so so, non-dual activities > > meditations, i believe....on a certain path....are necessary..... > meditations can help to come over the ego-mind " experience " ...... > can help to get in touch with truth.....and so, on the path, to just > be...what one ever have been.....without having had " known " before > > yes...the peace, that i (we) discuss this days about is what you > write.... > > " detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other > than it is. " .... > > i started to write about " witness " ....recently..... > > slowly an awareness about this " witness " .....and so the " relative " > view of ....appearences....by myself.....dissolve > > it's difficult to talk about this....it's not > an " experience " .....it's not a theorie or concept.......it's about a > real relationship to this witness....which let appear the > world....and myself.....this " Marc " .......as what it Is.....and > nothing else.... > > so this peace.....is the peace that i have....with > the " witness " .....or the Self...... > > sorry if my words appear confusing....i can't describe realy this my > peace....... > > (and i even thought about that the time ...to write many > things.....here......will be finished.......because of > some " misunderstandings " .....concerning this) > > > but like you told before....it's all about the peace.. > > ..to be > > Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > you mean that they will remind themSelf? > beware you guys, this way you are going to become Enlightened! > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 1/12/2006 12:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > > dennis_travis33 writes: > > > > > > > Ok. Then, simply tell me about that [peace, > > > > love, joy, Bliss] without attaching the labels like > > > > liberation, non duality, nirvana, realization, > > > > enlightenment! Labels like these simply > > > > complicate the whole thing and cause much > > > > confusion! > > > > > > > > > > > > Their use is many times counter-productive as > > > > they often lead to quite useless fight/argument/ > > > > debates about... whether someone is 'realized' > > > > or Not! > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > It is quite easily and quite simply understood > > > > by peace, joy, bliss and joy that we can all > > > > easily elate to and understand. > > > > > > > > Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, Liberation, > > > > Salvation are the labels which have now 'expired' > > > > in my view! > > > > > > > > > > > > Just gain Peace... > > > > > > > > and, sustain it! > > > > > > > > That's All! > > > > > > > > > > > > [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, > > > > enlightenment worry about themselves! > > > > > > > > They are none of our concerns! ] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > ac. > > > > > > ac, > > > > > > why you don't believe that Phil has not the peace.....exactly > same > > > than the one you are talking about....? > > > > > > does it matter on which path one come to peace....? > > > > > > do you believe that your experienced past is the only possible > way > > to > > > feel peace....now....? > > > > > > do you believe that Phil don't wish this same peace....to > > > everybody......just like you do......? > > > > > > what is your problem....?....if not, maybe, your ego- > > mind.....which > > > pass for the moment....a little period of emotions.....a > peaceless > > > period........which will pass again.....with the next " wave " of > > > peace.....you will feel....after it had happened.... > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just as a general comment, not necessarily directed toward our > > friend, > > > experiences of deep peace brought about through meditation are, > of > > course, > > > dualistic experiences, and therefore are generally followed by > > something that is > > > decidedly not peaceful. This is the nature of all dualistic > > experience and > > > cannot be avoided. This can set folks on a roller coaster ride as > > they try to find > > > a way to make a dualistic experience permanent. Of course, it > can't > > be done. > > > > > > What's occurring here, which I'm guessing you can identify with, > > Marc, is a > > > detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other > > than it is. > > > To the degree that this is done, the peace/non-peace game is > > simply not > > > played, and this is a source of constant peace that isn't > > determined by anything > > > that occurs, or doesn't occur , within the illusion. It may not > be > > as powerful > > > as a peak experience at this point, but it never leaves me > > entirely. > > > > > > Phil > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > yes.....the meditation " experiences " that you describe are not > > the " peace " we are writing about..... > > i agree that what " happen " between the meditations....can be far > away > > from any peaceful and ....so so, non-dual activities > > > > meditations, i believe....on a certain path....are necessary..... > > meditations can help to come over the ego-mind " experience " ...... > > can help to get in touch with truth.....and so, on the path, to > just > > be...what one ever have been.....without having had " known " before > > > > yes...the peace, that i (we) discuss this days about is what you > > write.... > > > " detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything > other > > than it is. " .... > > > > i started to write about " witness " ....recently..... > > > > slowly an awareness about this " witness " .....and so the " relative " > > view of ....appearences....by myself.....dissolve > > > > it's difficult to talk about this....it's not > > an " experience " .....it's not a theorie or concept.......it's about > a > > real relationship to this witness....which let appear the > > world....and myself.....this " Marc " .......as what it Is.....and > > nothing else.... > > > > so this peace.....is the peace that i have....with > > the " witness " .....or the Self...... > > > > sorry if my words appear confusing....i can't describe realy this > my > > peace....... > > > > (and i even thought about that the time ...to write many > > things.....here......will be finished.......because of > > some " misunderstandings " .....concerning this) > > > > > > but like you told before....it's all about the peace.. > > > > ..to be > > > > Marc > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Well, Marc might be in danger, but I figure as long as I keep my sleeping bag far enough away from the edge of the cliff, I'll be safe. Hehe. Phil In a message dated 1/12/2006 3:04:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, bigwaaba writes: beware you guys, this way you are going to become Enlightened! Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 1/12/2006 12:07:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > dennis_travis33 writes: > > > > > Ok. Then, simply tell me about that [peace, > > > love, joy, Bliss] without attaching the labels like > > > liberation, non duality, nirvana, realization, > > > enlightenment! Labels like these simply > > > complicate the whole thing and cause much > > > confusion! > > > > > > > > > Their use is many times counter-productive as > > > they often lead to quite useless fight/argument/ > > > debates about... whether someone is 'realized' > > > or Not! > > > > > > ... > > > > > > It is quite easily and quite simply understood > > > by peace, joy, bliss and joy that we can all > > > easily elate to and understand. > > > > > > Enlightenment, Realization, Nirvana, Liberation, > > > Salvation are the labels which have now 'expired' > > > in my view! > > > > > > > > > Just gain Peace... > > > > > > and, sustain it! > > > > > > That's All! > > > > > > > > > [Let non-duality, liberation, nirvana, > > > enlightenment worry about themselves! > > > > > > They are none of our concerns! ] > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > ac. > > > > ac, > > > > why you don't believe that Phil has not the peace.....exactly same > > than the one you are talking about....? > > > > does it matter on which path one come to peace....? > > > > do you believe that your experienced past is the only possible way > to > > feel peace....now....? > > > > do you believe that Phil don't wish this same peace....to > > everybody......just like you do......? > > > > what is your problem....?....if not, maybe, your ego- > mind.....which > > pass for the moment....a little period of emotions.....a peaceless > > period........which will pass again.....with the next " wave " of > > peace.....you will feel....after it had happened.... > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > Just as a general comment, not necessarily directed toward our > friend, > > experiences of deep peace brought about through meditation are, of > course, > > dualistic experiences, and therefore are generally followed by > something that is > > decidedly not peaceful. This is the nature of all dualistic > experience and > > cannot be avoided. This can set folks on a roller coaster ride as > they try to find > > a way to make a dualistic experience permanent. Of course, it can't > be done. > > > > What's occurring here, which I'm guessing you can identify with, > Marc, is a > > detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other > than it is. > > To the degree that this is done, the peace/non-peace game is > simply not > > played, and this is a source of constant peace that isn't > determined by anything > > that occurs, or doesn't occur , within the illusion. It may not be > as powerful > > as a peak experience at this point, but it never leaves me > entirely. > > > > Phil > > Hi Phil, > > yes.....the meditation " experiences " that you describe are not > the " peace " we are writing about..... > i agree that what " happen " between the meditations....can be far away > from any peaceful and ....so so, non-dual activities > > meditations, i believe....on a certain path....are necessary..... > meditations can help to come over the ego-mind " experience " ...... > can help to get in touch with truth.....and so, on the path, to just > be...what one ever have been.....without having had " known " before > > yes...the peace, that i (we) discuss this days about is what you > write.... > > " detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other > than it is. " .... > > i started to write about " witness " ....recently..... > > slowly an awareness about this " witness " .....and so the " relative " > view of ....appearences....by myself.....dissolve > > it's difficult to talk about this....it's not > an " experience " .....it's not a theorie or concept.......it's about a > real relationship to this witness....which let appear the > world....and myself.....this " Marc " .......as what it Is.....and > nothing else.... > > so this peace.....is the peace that i have....with > the " witness " .....or the Self...... > > sorry if my words appear confusing....i can't describe realy this my > peace....... > > (and i even thought about that the time ...to write many > things.....here......will be finished.......because of > some " misunderstandings " .....concerning this) > > > but like you told before....it's all about the peace.. > > ..to be > > Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 In a message dated 1/12/2006 1:28:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, dennis_travis33 writes: Hi Phil, yes.....the meditation " experiences " that you describe are not the " peace " we are writing about..... i agree that what " happen " between the meditations....can be far away from any peaceful and ....so so, non-dual activities meditations, i believe....on a certain path....are necessary..... meditations can help to come over the ego-mind " experience " ...... can help to get in touch with truth.....and so, on the path, to just be...what one ever have been.....without having had " known " before yes...the peace, that i (we) discuss this days about is what you write.... > " detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other than it is. " .... i started to write about " witness " ....recently..... slowly an awareness about this " witness " .....and so the " relative " view of ....appearences....by myself.....dissolve it's difficult to talk about this....it's not an " experience " .....it's not a theorie or concept.......it's about a real relationship to this witness....which let appear the world....and myself.....this " Marc " .......as what it Is.....and nothing else.... so this peace.....is the peace that i have....with the " witness " .....or the Self...... sorry if my words appear confusing....i can't describe realy this my peace....... (and i even thought about that the time ...to write many things.....here......will be finished.......because of some " misunderstandings " .....concerning this) but like you told before....it's all about the peace.. ...to be Marc Yeah, more and more I'm able to passively observe as the witness, and so I believe I know what you're talking about although this certainly hasn't become my primary mode of operation as yet. As I've mentioned before, it's astonishing how much of the daily routine can proceed, seemingly on it's own, without any real sense that 'I'm doing it. What I'm about to suggest doesn't come from my experience but possibly you'll allow for some intuitive 'knowing' within my limited awareness. It actually appears that experience ends at this point so I don't think that I ever will experience it. The witness, in the larger context, is Self, but I'm going to differentiate the witness from Self for the purpose of discussion. The witness, as you know, isn't thinking, choosing or doing anything; it's just observing. However, it is still fixated on it's own creation, and is not focussed on the Totality of Self. This Totality is Awareness out of which this witness arises. What You are is the ground of pure Awareness that makes witnessing possible. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/12/2006 1:28:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, > dennis_travis33 writes: > > Hi Phil, > > yes.....the meditation " experiences " that you describe are not > the " peace " we are writing about..... > i agree that what " happen " between the meditations....can be far away > from any peaceful and ....so so, non-dual activities > > meditations, i believe....on a certain path....are necessary..... > meditations can help to come over the ego-mind " experience " ...... > can help to get in touch with truth.....and so, on the path, to just > be...what one ever have been.....without having had " known " before > > yes...the peace, that i (we) discuss this days about is what you > write.... > > " detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything other > than it is. " .... > > i started to write about " witness " ....recently..... > > slowly an awareness about this " witness " .....and so the " relative " > view of ....appearences....by myself.....dissolve > > it's difficult to talk about this....it's not > an " experience " .....it's not a theorie or concept.......it's about a > real relationship to this witness....which let appear the > world....and myself.....this " Marc " .......as what it Is.....and > nothing else.... > > so this peace.....is the peace that i have....with > the " witness " .....or the Self...... > > sorry if my words appear confusing....i can't describe realy this my > peace....... > > (and i even thought about that the time ...to write many > things.....here......will be finished.......because of > some " misunderstandings " .....concerning this) > > > but like you told before....it's all about the peace.. > > ..to be > > Marc > > > > Yeah, more and more I'm able to passively observe as the witness, and so I > believe I know what you're talking about although this certainly hasn't become > my primary mode of operation as yet. As I've mentioned before, it's > astonishing how much of the daily routine can proceed, seemingly on it's own, without > any real sense that 'I'm doing it. > > What I'm about to suggest doesn't come from my experience but possibly > you'll allow for some intuitive 'knowing' within my limited awareness. It actually > appears that experience ends at this point so I don't think that I ever will > experience it. > > The witness, in the larger context, is Self, but I'm going to differentiate > the witness from Self for the purpose of discussion. The witness, as you know, > isn't thinking, choosing or doing anything; it's just observing. However, it > is still fixated on it's own creation, and is not focussed on the Totality > of Self. This Totality is Awareness out of which this witness arises. What You > are is the ground of pure Awareness that makes witnessing possible. > > Phil > > > Hi Phil, thank you for your words.... yes.....it's difficult to write about this " witness " ....about Self..... and i don't want (feel) to write much about.....for the moment means...i don't feel to write more and more about this " views " ...about truth.....and everything related.....because it seem to be (look and feel and whatever the expression) " different " for some other people here...... it's like " different worlds " are meeting....... sure....nothing is excluded in Oneness.....thats true but even " Oneness " and this concept of " nothing is exluded in Oneness " ......are becoming only thoughts.....flowing.......without the " now " .......the full awareness of being......the peace of being.......(with) the " witness Self " you write: The witness, as you know, > isn't thinking, choosing or doing anything; it's just observing. " yes....true.... and with some awareness.....of Self (witness).....the identity of being " Marc " dissolve........and the things are no more realy (only) " done " by " Marc " so....... and then, there is no more " Marc " ....and the consciousness of the world.....is reduced to a nearly " nothingness " even if i'm sitting here at work.....in the " world " ..... endless discussion could be done.....about if this remaining " existence " is real or unreal......but this would only lead to some concepts and theories.......thats all you write: " However, it > is still fixated on it's own creation, and is not focussed on the Totality > of Self. This Totality is Awareness out of which this witness arises. What You > are is the ground of pure Awareness that makes witnessing possible " interesting point....yes nicely expressed.... even if maybe this " Totality of Self " is like a " help " only....to describe......and write about things ok for now.....i see that you are involved in some long and interesting talks and " views " here in the group.....must be busy for the mind........ wish a good day Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 1/12/2006 1:28:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > dennis_travis33 writes: > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > yes.....the meditation " experiences " that you describe are not > > the " peace " we are writing about..... > > i agree that what " happen " between the meditations....can be far > away > > from any peaceful and ....so so, non-dual activities > > > > meditations, i believe....on a certain path....are necessary..... > > meditations can help to come over the ego-mind " experience " ...... > > can help to get in touch with truth.....and so, on the path, to > just > > be...what one ever have been.....without having had " known " before > > > > yes...the peace, that i (we) discuss this days about is what you > > write.... > > > " detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything > other > > than it is. " .... > > > > i started to write about " witness " ....recently..... > > > > slowly an awareness about this " witness " .....and so the " relative " > > view of ....appearences....by myself.....dissolve > > > > it's difficult to talk about this....it's not > > an " experience " .....it's not a theorie or concept.......it's about > a > > real relationship to this witness....which let appear the > > world....and myself.....this " Marc " .......as what it Is.....and > > nothing else.... > > > > so this peace.....is the peace that i have....with > > the " witness " .....or the Self...... > > > > sorry if my words appear confusing....i can't describe realy this > my > > peace....... > > > > (and i even thought about that the time ...to write many > > things.....here......will be finished.......because of > > some " misunderstandings " .....concerning this) > > > > > > but like you told before....it's all about the peace.. > > > > ..to be > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > Yeah, more and more I'm able to passively observe as the witness, > and so I > > believe I know what you're talking about although this certainly > hasn't become > > my primary mode of operation as yet. As I've mentioned before, it's > > astonishing how much of the daily routine can proceed, seemingly > on it's own, without > > any real sense that 'I'm doing it. > > > > What I'm about to suggest doesn't come from my experience but > possibly > > you'll allow for some intuitive 'knowing' within my limited > awareness. It actually > > appears that experience ends at this point so I don't think that I > ever will > > experience it. > > > > The witness, in the larger context, is Self, but I'm going to > differentiate > > the witness from Self for the purpose of discussion. The witness, > as you know, > > isn't thinking, choosing or doing anything; it's just observing. > However, it > > is still fixated on it's own creation, and is not focussed on the > Totality > > of Self. This Totality is Awareness out of which this witness > arises. What You > > are is the ground of pure Awareness that makes witnessing possible. > > > > Phil > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > thank you for your words.... > > yes.....it's difficult to write about this " witness " ....about > Self..... > > and i don't want (feel) to write much about.....for the moment > > means...i don't feel to write more and more about > this " views " ...about truth.....and everything related.....because it > seem to be (look and feel and whatever the expression) " different " > for some other people here...... > it's like " different worlds " are meeting....... > > sure....nothing is excluded in Oneness.....thats true > > but even " Oneness " and this concept of " nothing is exluded in > Oneness " ......are becoming only thoughts.....flowing.......without > the " now " .......the full awareness of being......the peace of > being.......(with) the " witness Self " > > you write: > The witness, as you know, > > isn't thinking, choosing or doing anything; it's just observing. " > > yes....true.... > > and with some awareness.....of Self (witness).....the identity of > being " Marc " dissolve........and the things are no more realy > (only) " done " by " Marc " so....... > > and then, there is no more " Marc " ....and the consciousness of the > world.....is reduced to a nearly " nothingness " > > even if i'm sitting here at work.....in the " world " ..... > > endless discussion could be done.....about if this > remaining " existence " is real or unreal......but this would only lead > to some concepts and theories.......thats all > > you write: > > " However, it > > is still fixated on it's own creation, and is not focussed on the > Totality > > of Self. This Totality is Awareness out of which this witness > arises. What You > > are is the ground of pure Awareness that makes witnessing possible " > > > interesting point....yes > nicely expressed.... > > even if maybe this " Totality of Self " is like a " help " only....to > describe......and write about things > > ok for now.....i see that you are involved in some long and > interesting talks and " views " here in the group.....must be busy for > the mind........ > > wish a good day > > Marc > a good now to you Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 1/12/2006 1:28:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > > dennis_travis33 writes: > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > yes.....the meditation " experiences " that you describe are not > > > the " peace " we are writing about..... > > > i agree that what " happen " between the meditations....can be far > > away > > > from any peaceful and ....so so, non-dual activities > > > > > > meditations, i believe....on a certain path....are necessary..... > > > meditations can help to come over the ego- mind " experience " ...... > > > can help to get in touch with truth.....and so, on the path, to > > just > > > be...what one ever have been.....without having had " known " > before > > > > > > yes...the peace, that i (we) discuss this days about is what you > > > write.... > > > > " detachment from the illusion and the need to have anything > > other > > > than it is. " .... > > > > > > i started to write about " witness " ....recently..... > > > > > > slowly an awareness about this " witness " .....and so > the " relative " > > > view of ....appearences....by myself.....dissolve > > > > > > it's difficult to talk about this....it's not > > > an " experience " .....it's not a theorie or concept.......it's > about > > a > > > real relationship to this witness....which let appear the > > > world....and myself.....this " Marc " .......as what it Is.....and > > > nothing else.... > > > > > > so this peace.....is the peace that i have....with > > > the " witness " .....or the Self...... > > > > > > sorry if my words appear confusing....i can't describe realy > this > > my > > > peace....... > > > > > > (and i even thought about that the time ...to write many > > > things.....here......will be finished.......because of > > > some " misunderstandings " .....concerning this) > > > > > > > > > but like you told before....it's all about the peace.. > > > > > > ..to be > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, more and more I'm able to passively observe as the witness, > > and so I > > > believe I know what you're talking about although this certainly > > hasn't become > > > my primary mode of operation as yet. As I've mentioned before, > it's > > > astonishing how much of the daily routine can proceed, seemingly > > on it's own, without > > > any real sense that 'I'm doing it. > > > > > > What I'm about to suggest doesn't come from my experience but > > possibly > > > you'll allow for some intuitive 'knowing' within my limited > > awareness. It actually > > > appears that experience ends at this point so I don't think that > I > > ever will > > > experience it. > > > > > > The witness, in the larger context, is Self, but I'm going to > > differentiate > > > the witness from Self for the purpose of discussion. The witness, > > as you know, > > > isn't thinking, choosing or doing anything; it's just observing. > > However, it > > > is still fixated on it's own creation, and is not focussed on > the > > Totality > > > of Self. This Totality is Awareness out of which this witness > > arises. What You > > > are is the ground of pure Awareness that makes witnessing > possible. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > thank you for your words.... > > > > yes.....it's difficult to write about this " witness " ....about > > Self..... > > > > and i don't want (feel) to write much about.....for the moment > > > > means...i don't feel to write more and more about > > this " views " ...about truth.....and everything related.....because > it > > seem to be (look and feel and whatever the expression) " different " > > for some other people here...... > > it's like " different worlds " are meeting....... > > > > sure....nothing is excluded in Oneness.....thats true > > > > but even " Oneness " and this concept of " nothing is exluded in > > Oneness " ......are becoming only thoughts.....flowing.......without > > the " now " .......the full awareness of being......the peace of > > being.......(with) the " witness Self " > > > > you write: > > The witness, as you know, > > > isn't thinking, choosing or doing anything; it's just observing. " > > > > yes....true.... > > > > and with some awareness.....of Self (witness).....the identity of > > being " Marc " dissolve........and the things are no more realy > > (only) " done " by " Marc " so....... > > > > and then, there is no more " Marc " ....and the consciousness of the > > world.....is reduced to a nearly " nothingness " > > > > even if i'm sitting here at work.....in the " world " ..... > > > > endless discussion could be done.....about if this > > remaining " existence " is real or unreal......but this would only > lead > > to some concepts and theories.......thats all > > > > you write: > > > > " However, it > > > is still fixated on it's own creation, and is not focussed on > the > > Totality > > > of Self. This Totality is Awareness out of which this witness > > arises. What You > > > are is the ground of pure Awareness that makes witnessing > possible " > > > > > > interesting point....yes > > nicely expressed.... > > > > even if maybe this " Totality of Self " is like a " help " only....to > > describe......and write about things > > > > ok for now.....i see that you are involved in some long and > > interesting talks and " views " here in the group.....must be busy > for > > the mind........ > > > > wish a good day > > > > Marc > > > > a good now to you Marc thanks.... wish a nice weekend > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 In a message dated 1/13/2006 3:03:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, dennis_travis33 writes: > Hi Phil, thank you for your words.... yes.....it's difficult to write about this " witness " ....about Self..... and i don't want (feel) to write much about.....for the moment means...i don't feel to write more and more about this " views " ...about truth.....and everything related.....because it seem to be (look and feel and whatever the expression) " different " for some other people here...... it's like " different worlds " are meeting....... sure....nothing is excluded in Oneness.....thats true but even " Oneness " and this concept of " nothing is exluded in Oneness " ......are becoming only thoughts.....flowing.......without the " now " .......the full awareness of being......the peace of being.......(with) the " witness Self " you write: The witness, as you know, > isn't thinking, choosing or doing anything; it's just observing. " yes....true.... and with some awareness.....of Self (witness).....the identity of being " Marc " dissolve........and the things are no more realy (only) " done " by " Marc " so....... and then, there is no more " Marc " ....and the consciousness of the world.....is reduced to a nearly " nothingness " even if i'm sitting here at work.....in the " world " ..... endless discussion could be done.....about if this remaining " existence " is real or unreal......but this would only lead to some concepts and theories.......thats all you write: " However, it > is still fixated on it's own creation, and is not focussed on the Totality > of Self. This Totality is Awareness out of which this witness arises. What You > are is the ground of pure Awareness that makes witnessing possible " interesting point....yes nicely expressed.... even if maybe this " Totality of Self " is like a " help " only....to describe......and write about things ok for now.....i see that you are involved in some long and interesting talks and " views " here in the group.....must be busy for the mind........ wish a good day Marc Yes, well, I'm of the opinion that the mind is a valuable tool that will take us to a very specific point in our preparation for noticing Truth, then it must be dropped like a hot rock. In illusion, truth must be conceptualized. Actual Truth has nothing at all to do with concepts. I believe that realizing Truth begins with the exploration of illusion, and this process can't be bypassed. I see folks all the time who pretend to accept, to not struggle, to not think, to not have desires, because they understand this is the end result and they believe that by imitating the end result, they can bring that about. This is not so. None of these things are choices to be made, but rather conclusions the mind must come to. Desires are not dropped until we're convinced that they can't be fulfilled within the illusion. Thinking is not stopped until the motivations for thought have been thoroughly looked into and released. Surrender is not something that is 'done' but rather the ending of the doing, which comes about when all other possible alternatives have been explored. The ego self is released when it is clearly seen that it has no substance at all. None of this is really a process of mentation, but a 'looking' within for the truth of these matters, and it necessarily involves mind and it's ability to conceptualize. This is all a process of evolution that does not involve resistance, and I'm convinced that whatever path is followed, it must be a path of nonresistance. This means thought is not to be resisted, questions are not to be stifled, desires are not to be pushed away. This is only more resistance which ultimately will need to be released. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@A... wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, well, I'm of the opinion that the mind is a valuable tool that will > take us to a very specific point in our preparation for noticing Truth, then it > must be dropped like a hot rock. In illusion, truth must be conceptualized. > Actual Truth has nothing at all to do with concepts. > > I believe that realizing Truth begins with the exploration of illusion, and > this process can't be bypassed. I see folks all the time who pretend to > accept, to not struggle, to not think, to not have desires, because they understand > this is the end result and they believe that by imitating the end result, > they can bring that about. > > This is not so. None of these things are choices to be made, but rather > conclusions the mind must come to. Desires are not dropped until we're convinced > that they can't be fulfilled within the illusion. Thinking is not stopped > until the motivations for thought have been thoroughly looked into and released. > Surrender is not something that is 'done' but rather the ending of the doing, > which comes about when all other possible alternatives have been explored. > The ego self is released when it is clearly seen that it has no substance at > all. > > None of this is really a process of mentation, but a 'looking' within for > the truth of these matters, and it necessarily involves mind and it's ability to > conceptualize. This is all a process of evolution that does not involve > resistance, and I'm convinced that whatever path is followed, it must be a path > of nonresistance. This means thought is not to be resisted, questions are not > to be stifled, desires are not to be pushed away. This is only more > resistance which ultimately will need to be released. > > Phil Hi Phil, nice words about this your " nonresistance " .... trying to don't resist....and enter for some time ...the mind- game ....the one with words and letters..... if all this words would lead to some deep peace.....in a reader.....whoever.....then the resistance would fall also...... the resistance to peace.....to the " now " ..... would be nice the " totality of Self " can only be found in the " now " ......in fact.....there is no " totality " of things and " parts " ......whatever is the appearence and a form of.......it " enclude " (is) the whole Self there are no " parts " existing...and therefore.....no " totality " of Self the Self Is like.... " I am " everything else is to enter into a nice " movie " .....the fiction of " you " and " me " and " she " and " he " ....and some wonderful " roleplays " ..... but yes....it need the function of mind to cut off again the movie......whenever there is the Wish to just " see " .....and no more role-play only few thoughts..... nice day Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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