Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 In a message dated 2/18/2006 9:55:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, ADHHUB writes: > Do I need to describe the understandings that occur in spiritually mature > individuals that lead to peace and release of egoic needs and attachments? > Hasn't everyone here already come to some of those understandings? > > Phil > L.E: Peace is an indiviidual experience, it is not self-realization. If you are a christian, give it up and find peace. If you are a muslim, give it up and you will find peace. If you are an israeli, or palistinian, give it up and find peace. Realization is more about openess and non-identification with particular ideas. It's being able to experience life as it is, directly, without lots of cultural garbage. Being itself is not peace or non-peace, it just is, just relaxed openess. Larry Epston www.epston.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2006 Report Share Posted February 19, 2006 In a message dated 2/19/2006 2:53:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: epston Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) In a message dated 2/18/2006 9:55:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, ADHHUB writes: > Do I need to describe the understandings that occur in spiritually mature > individuals that lead to peace and release of egoic needs and attachments? > Hasn't everyone here already come to some of those understandings? > > Phil > L.E: Peace is an indiviidual experience, it is not self-realization. If you are a christian, give it up and find peace. If you are a muslim, give it up and you will find peace. If you are an israeli, or palistinian, give it up and find peace. Realization is more about openess and non-identification with particular ideas. It's being able to experience life as it is, directly, without lots of cultural garbage. Being itself is not peace or non-peace, it just is, just relaxed openess. Larry Epston I believe dualistic peace is an individual experience. It's a wonderful thing, but a sharp stick in the eye will end that experience, since this is the nature of duality and perception/experience. However, there is a nondualistic peace that has nothing to do with what occurs, or doesn't occur in the world since it's not tied to experience but rather noticed as a quality that is part of the essence of what you are. What you a re cannot be altered by any experience, which brings us back to the unchanging background discussion. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: >However, there is a nondualistic peace that has nothing to do with what >occurs, or doesn't occur in the world since it's not tied to experience >but rather noticed as a quality that is part of the essence of what you >are. What you are cannot be altered by any experience, which brings us >back to the unchanging background discussion. To all fighters for peace: " Nondualistic peace " ... already the very term " nondualistic " is a contradiction in itself. There is no quality In absence of duality Furthermore, one may call the objects by any name ( " peace " ... " essence of what you are " etc...) but they still remain inside the conceptual frame. Thats why to make claims upon " peace " as an ideal, absolute quality only sheds some light on the dreams of the claimer. On his hope to escape violence. But the insistency alone of that claim shows enough violence to demonstrate the hypocrisy. Nobody can bend the pendulum to one side and let it rest there forever. But obviously it is believed by many that " enlightenment " (or however called) means exactly this... Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > >However, there is a nondualistic peace that has nothing to do with what > >occurs, or doesn't occur in the world since it's not tied to > experience >but rather noticed as a quality that is part of the > essence of what you >are. What you are cannot be altered by any > experience, which brings us >back to the unchanging background discussion. > > To all fighters for peace: > > " Nondualistic peace " ... already the very term " nondualistic " is a > contradiction in itself. > > There is no quality > In absence of duality > > Furthermore, one may call the objects by any name ( " peace " ... " essence > of what you are " etc...) but they still remain inside the conceptual > frame. Thats why to make claims upon " peace " as an ideal, absolute > quality only sheds some light on the dreams of the claimer. On his > hope to escape violence. But the insistency alone of that claim shows > enough violence to demonstrate the hypocrisy. Nobody can bend the > pendulum to one side and let it rest there forever. But obviously it > is believed by many that " enlightenment " (or however called) means > exactly this... > > Stefan Hi Stefan, do you believe that the " peace " we talk about...is a concept?... this peace is also not an " ideal " ....or a " dream " ......it's just the result of an inner (spiritual) path........it's a fact for all who live a life.....of inner peace..... you talk about " escaping violance " what exactly is this " violance " that you have in mind?....where it come from?.....where is the source of?.....why it appear in your mind?....... you don't believe that this your " violance " is a self-made violance.....that you created in your mind......for some reason....? maybe you fight against this " peace " .....because you don't have or experience some inner peace.....? Marc Ps: the only escape existing...is escaping the Self.....which can't be realy escaped....even with highest intellect.....and concepts..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 --- Stefan <s.petersilge a écrit : Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: >However, there is a nondualistic peace that has nothing to do with what >occurs, or doesn't occur in the world since it's not tied to experience >but rather noticed as a quality that is part of the essence of what you >are. What you are cannot be altered by any experience, which brings us >back to the unchanging background discussion. To all fighters for peace: " Nondualistic peace " ... already the very term " nondualistic " is a contradiction in itself. There is no quality In absence of duality Furthermore, one may call the objects by any name ( " peace " ... " essence of what you are " etc...) but they still remain inside the conceptual frame. Thats why to make claims upon " peace " as an ideal, absolute quality only sheds some light on the dreams of the claimer. On his hope to escape violence. But the insistency alone of that claim shows enough violence to demonstrate the hypocrisy. Nobody can bend the pendulum to one side and let it rest there forever. But obviously it is believed by many that " enlightenment " (or however called) means exactly this... Stefan ....................................................... True very true, and true also that there is a kind of enduring peace. The problem isn`t there, it is like you said Stephan : we are making a concept with everything we approach. P ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: >Hi Stefan, >do you believe that the " peace " we talk about...is a concept?... Oh... of course is it a concept. What else? " You " are in " peace " ... already " you " is a concept. Not to speak of its states. You have asked me why I talked about violence: because peace is the absence of violence. Just like darkness is the absence of light. One cannot think of peace without accepting violence. It is impossible and to try so means to create neurosis. It is wiser to enjoy the dark night and the sun coming up again. And when my neighbor wants to take a piece of my house I will hit him and afterwards I will enjoy the regained peace. I would find it much more interesting if someone would point at that which is beyond peace and violence. I am reminded of Nisargadatta, who often has called the non-dual: hard and solid like a rock. Greetings Brother Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 In a message dated 2/20/2006 3:14:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Stefan " <s.petersilge Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: >However, there is a nondualistic peace that has nothing to do with what >occurs, or doesn't occur in the world since it's not tied to experience >but rather noticed as a quality that is part of the essence of what you >are. What you are cannot be altered by any experience, which brings us >back to the unchanging background discussion. To all fighters for peace: " Nondualistic peace " ... already the very term " nondualistic " is a contradiction in itself. There is no quality In absence of duality Furthermore, one may call the objects by any name ( " peace " ... " essence of what you are " etc...) but they still remain inside the conceptual frame. Thats why to make claims upon " peace " as an ideal, absolute quality only sheds some light on the dreams of the claimer. On his hope to escape violence. But the insistency alone of that claim shows enough violence to demonstrate the hypocrisy. Nobody can bend the pendulum to one side and let it rest there forever. But obviously it is believed by many that " enlightenment " (or however called) means exactly this... Stefan I understand your frustration with language and it would wonderful if we could all speak nondualistically, but of course that's not possible, so here we are mostly battling over the right words to use, or the right to even use words. Personally, I don't fault anyone for dreaming of liberation or trying to conceptualize their understandings and sometimes very powerful experiences. I believe it all serves a purpose and I'm grateful to those who can dig deep either in their minds or hearts and struggle to put what they find into words. It's not necessary for us to rediscover over and over that thoughts and words are in a conceptual framework. It's so today, and tomorrow it will also be so, extremely probable that it will be so the day after. There is no quality in the nondual realm? Are you sure? It seems odd that anyone would ever pursue such a thing as liberation if it didn't have a liberating quality to it. Peace, without the awareness of non-peace. Once again, language fails us, but I suggest that's a non-dualistic quality. As far as enlightenment bending the pendulum to one side forever, that's exactly what I believe. Experience of duality doesn't change at all. Why would it? If your interest in enlightenment is to change your dualistic experience then, yes, I can understand your consternation. The pendulum, however, only swings in the mind. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 In a message dated 2/20/2006 3:14:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) --- Stefan <s.petersilge a écrit : Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: >However, there is a nondualistic peace that has nothing to do with what >occurs, or doesn't occur in the world since it's not tied to experience >but rather noticed as a quality that is part of the essence of what you >are. What you are cannot be altered by any experience, which brings us >back to the unchanging background discussion. To all fighters for peace: " Nondualistic peace " ... already the very term " nondualistic " is a contradiction in itself. There is no quality In absence of duality Furthermore, one may call the objects by any name ( " peace " ... " essence of what you are " etc...) but they still remain inside the conceptual frame. Thats why to make claims upon " peace " as an ideal, absolute quality only sheds some light on the dreams of the claimer. On his hope to escape violence. But the insistency alone of that claim shows enough violence to demonstrate the hypocrisy. Nobody can bend the pendulum to one side and let it rest there forever. But obviously it is believed by many that " enlightenment " (or however called) means exactly this... Stefan ....................................................... True very true, and true also that there is a kind of enduring peace. The problem isn`t there, it is like you said Stephan : we are making a concept with everything we approach. P Then please start posting non-conceptually. The rest of us will try to learn from your approach. Thanks. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > >Hi Stefan, > >do you believe that the " peace " we talk about...is a concept?... > > Oh... of course is it a concept. What else? " You " are in " peace " ... > already " you " is a concept. Not to speak of its states. > > You have asked me why I talked about violence: because peace is the > absence of violence. Just like darkness is the absence of light. One > cannot think of peace without accepting violence. It is impossible and > to try so means to create neurosis. It is wiser to enjoy the dark > night and the sun coming up again. And when my neighbor wants to take > a piece of my house I will hit him and afterwards I will enjoy the > regained peace. > > I would find it much more interesting if someone would point at that > which is beyond peace and violence. I am reminded of Nisargadatta, who > often has called the non-dual: hard and solid like a rock. > > Greetings > Brother Stefan Hi Stefan, if you would realy read the messages......then you would discover that i wrote about " peace " ....about deep peace also...... did i tell that " i'm in peace " ?.....No.... and here we come to the point...... peace Is......peace.........and, yes....i belief that this " peace " is real......everywhere......wherever.....in whatever.....in whoever...... another point that you are missing, seem so,....is that i don't identify with body-mind-intellect.....this " Marc " is a reflection only......like all names and forms are.......reflections only......of the One (ever peacefully) and infinite Self and.....if you realy only " see " duality....means " Marc " ....and " Stefan " .....and " wave27 " .....i admit that " I " could i never feel peace....if i would take all this non- sense of concepts and theories serious you write: " peace is the the absense of violence " ...... (another strange concept)....so what?......do you fear to produce violence when think about peace?....is this realy what you believe in?..... don't find any words for such concept and theorie...... i think that your dual concepts....are indeed..... " solid as a rock " .... maybe you feel some peace within you......living with such concepts.......but it's clear that real peace will be with you.......even in the " darkness " of a night.....and wherever you imagine to escape else....... Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: >I understand your frustration with language and it would wonderful if >we could all speak nondualistically, Hi Phil. I am not frustrated with language. I love it! And I enjoy to play around with it. But I am not that much identified with terms and ideas to make it through endless and futile discussions. But still, I try to use my language both: playfully and as exact as possible. You ask: >There is no quality in the nondual realm? Are you sure? Quality must be attached to an object. Without object no quality can be. Does this not belong to those basics that have to be understood when language should be used in a meaningful way? >It seems odd that anyone would ever pursue such a thing as liberation >if it didn't have a liberating quality to it... It is odd!!! Who is seeking liberation from what? This is the precondition that cannot be clarified. Therefor, is this not the decisive question that is asked by the wise so often? >As far as enlightenment bending the pendulum to one side forever, >that's exactly what I believe. Experience of duality doesn't change >at all. Why would it? If your interest in enlightenment is to change >your dualistic experience then, yes, I can understand your >consternation. The pendulum, however, only swings in the mind. The point at rest is in the middle and not at the extremes. The question is: what is beyond peace and violence? Any attempt to stop the pendulum is against nature. This is not the way of the wise. I do not seek to change it. It is not " in the mind " ... it is how mind itself works and functions... and therefor the pendulum is everything we perceive. Just try to stop inhaling and live with exhaling only... impossible! Now, can we ask: where is the problem? Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Mark, before you start to transcend duality you have to understand and accept it. Greetings Stefan Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > Hi Stefan, > > if you would realy read the messages......then you would discover > that i wrote about " peace " ....about deep peace also...... > did i tell that " i'm in peace " ?.....No.... > > and here we come to the point...... > > peace Is......peace.........and, yes....i belief that this " peace " is > real......everywhere......wherever.....in whatever.....in > whoever...... > > another point that you are missing, seem so,....is that i don't > identify with body-mind-intellect.....this " Marc " is a reflection > only......like all names and forms are.......reflections only......of > the One (ever peacefully) and infinite Self > > and.....if you realy only " see " > duality....means " Marc " ....and " Stefan " .....and " wave27 " .....i admit > that " I " could i never feel peace....if i would take all this non- > sense of concepts and theories serious > > you write: " peace is the the absense of violence " ...... > (another strange concept)....so what?......do you fear to produce > violence when think about peace?....is this realy what you believe > in?..... > > don't find any words for such concept and theorie...... > > i think that your dual concepts....are indeed..... " solid as a > rock " .... > > maybe you feel some peace within you......living with such > concepts.......but it's clear that real peace will be with > you.......even in the " darkness " of a night.....and wherever you > imagine to escape else....... > > Marc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: Hi Stefan, i have no problem to accept it.....if i had....i wouldn't have ever written any word in here..... about this " understanding " of " duality " .....i think the meanings differ endlessly between everyone who is concerned..... duality has a different sense/meaning for every " individual " entity..... duality is what create as long inner conflicts...and so, also in the outside world.....as there is ignorence about Self....... .....until one get over the " emotions " of an ego-mind.....and don't feel anymore as an " individual " entity...... means....until there is nobody anymore " who " can feel neither some superficial happiness....and also some superficial fear, anger or hate..... in deep peace....there are no more such emotions..... and the one who feel this deep peace......don't miss all this related theories and concepts.....anymore because this " one " ....is no more of this world but free Marc > Mark, before you start to transcend duality you have to understand and > accept it. > > Greetings > Stefan > > Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " > <dennis_travis33@> wrote: > > > Hi Stefan, > > > > if you would realy read the messages......then you would discover > > that i wrote about " peace " ....about deep peace also...... > > did i tell that " i'm in peace " ?.....No.... > > > > and here we come to the point...... > > > > peace Is......peace.........and, yes....i belief that this " peace " is > > real......everywhere......wherever.....in whatever.....in > > whoever...... > > > > another point that you are missing, seem so,....is that i don't > > identify with body-mind-intellect.....this " Marc " is a reflection > > only......like all names and forms are.......reflections only......of > > the One (ever peacefully) and infinite Self > > > > and.....if you realy only " see " > > duality....means " Marc " ....and " Stefan " .....and " wave27 " .....i admit > > that " I " could i never feel peace....if i would take all this non- > > sense of concepts and theories serious > > > > you write: " peace is the the absense of violence " ...... > > (another strange concept)....so what?......do you fear to produce > > violence when think about peace?....is this realy what you believe > > in?..... > > > > don't find any words for such concept and theorie...... > > > > i think that your dual concepts....are indeed..... " solid as a > > rock " .... > > > > maybe you feel some peace within you......living with such > > concepts.......but it's clear that real peace will be with > > you.......even in the " darkness " of a night.....and wherever you > > imagine to escape else....... > > > > Marc > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Mark, you say that you have no problem to accept duality... then... why do you deny it? And as far as understanding is concerned: the laws of duality are very strict and it is only your vivid wishful fantasy that believes one could bend it to any direction as pleased. Greetings Stefan Nisargadatta , " dennis_travis33 " <dennis_travis33 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > wrote: > > >Hi Stefan, > >i have no problem to accept it.....if i had....i wouldn't have ever >written any word in here..... > >about this " understanding " of " duality " .....i think the meanings >differ endlessly between everyone who is concerned..... > >duality has a different sense/meaning for every " individual " >entity..... duality is what create as long inner conflicts...and so, >also in the outside world.....as there is ignorence about Self....... > >....until one get over the " emotions " of an ego-mind.....and don't >feel anymore as an " individual " entity...... > >means....until there is nobody anymore " who " can feel neither some > superficial happiness....and also some superficial fear, anger or > hate..... > > in deep peace....there are no more such emotions..... > and the one who feel this deep peace......don't miss all this related > theories and concepts.....anymore > > because this " one " ....is no more of this world > > but free > > Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Mark, you say that you have no problem to accept duality... then... > why do you deny it? > > And as far as understanding is concerned: the laws of duality are very > strict and it is only your vivid wishful fantasy that believes one > could bend it to any direction as pleased. > > Greetings > Stefan > > > Hi Stefan, i don't deny duality.....like i also don't deny the reality of the one " who " dream during sleep, or the one " who " is in waking state of mind now.... but all this states are of duality.....because one is trapped in the illusion of being the one....who write....who sleep.....who breathe..... and so...that there are endless " others " .... " who " also sleep....breathe......dream.....think... if you identify with the one who is " doing all this " ....then there are also " others " " who " are doing all this things......appearing if you knew that " you " are not the " doer " .....then there are also no others....who could be " doer " ...... this is not of any theorie....or concepts....or beliefs...... this is what happen (experienced) during the delusion of an dual-(ego)- mind.... i don't deny that this process is already finished you talk about the " laws of duality " ..... one law concerning duality is, for sure, the law of Karma..... Karma is related to the one " who " is attached to the fiction of the world.....like a baby child is attached to the mother no liberation possible with such attachments as long there are attachments to " other or other things " ...which aren't not percieved as oneSelf sometimes i think that there are babies in here.....spiritual babies......crying all around like fools.......when there is a " concept- toy " missing......lol why not talking about the law of non-duality.....?....would be maybe endless more effectfull.... Marc > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 <It is odd!!! Who is seeking liberation from what? This is the precondition that cannot be clarified. Therefor, is this not the decisive question that is asked by the wise so often?> So there cannot be an answer to that question? There can be a million answer it seems, it is obvious, but the truest answer is still your open question, the one no-one can answer. I would say.........breathing in and out is one thing.......why is it that it dioesn`t completely satisfie me.....there is another breath.......that needs to be given space....Space.. And one cannot give space because one fills space.. Patricia _________________________ Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: Stefan: ><It is odd!!! Who is seeking liberation from what? >>This is the >>precondition that cannot be clarified. Therefor, is >>this not the >>decisive question that is asked by the wise so often?> Patricia: >So there cannot be an answer to that question? >There can be a million answer it seems, it is obvious, >but the truest answer is still your open question, the >one no-one can answer. Because all those million answers are based on those same false preconditions, like the question itself. >I would say.........breathing in and out is one >thing.......why is it that it doesn`t completely >satisfie me.....there is another breath.......that >needs to be given space....Space.. >And one cannot give space because one fills space.. >Patricia Ahhh, this longing... this engine which keeps us going... from breath to breath... Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 S: Quality must be attached to an object. Without object no quality can be. Does this not belong to those basics that have to be understood when language should be used in a meaningful way? P: A quality is an attribute or trait or character (according to my funk & wagnals). Must this be applied to an object? Can divinity have an attribute? Can a feeling have a characteristic? These are not objects. S: It is odd!!! Who is seeking liberation from what? This is the precondition that cannot be clarified. Therefor, is this not the decisive question that is asked by the wise so often? P: Ego is seeking liberation from suffering. Let me answer for you: There is no seeker. There is nothing to be liberated from. Suffering is an illusion. Here's my answer to that: Ego is seeking liberation from suffering. The question is asked by the " wise " in an attempt to liberate ego from it's suffering. The wise don't feel the need to deny the reality of suffering with mental concepts. S: The point at rest is in the middle and not at the extremes. The question is: what is beyond peace and violence? P: Ultimate Reality is not the center point between the extremes of duality because the duality itself is a perceptual illusion created by mind. One polarity of the duality is an illusion. In the relative, there is not a substance called light and another substance called darkness. Darkness is the absence of light. If there is no absence of light, the result is not romantic mood lighting. Conceptually, the Absolute is love, joy and peace without the QUALITY of unlove, unjoy and unpeace. The uncola versions are dualistic creations of mind only, which has the nasty habbit of perceiving lack. S: Any attempt to stop the pendulum is against nature. This is not the way of the wise. I do not seek to change it. It is not " in the mind " ... it is how mind itself works and functions... and therefor the pendulum is everything we perceive. Just try to stop inhaling and live with exhaling only... impossible! P: You're clearly talking about the relative illusion. What's not clear is why you keep coming back to it when the discussion has been about nonduality, liberation and enlightenment. Maybe I should ask you if you believe in any of those things. Phil In a message dated 2/21/2006 7:02:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Stefan " <s.petersilge Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: >I understand your frustration with language and it would wonderful if >we could all speak nondualistically, Hi Phil. I am not frustrated with language. I love it! And I enjoy to play around with it. But I am not that much identified with terms and ideas to make it through endless and futile discussions. But still, I try to use my language both: playfully and as exact as possible. You ask: >There is no quality in the nondual realm? Are you sure? Quality must be attached to an object. Without object no quality can be. Does this not belong to those basics that have to be understood when language should be used in a meaningful way? >It seems odd that anyone would ever pursue such a thing as liberation >if it didn't have a liberating quality to it... It is odd!!! Who is seeking liberation from what? This is the precondition that cannot be clarified. Therefor, is this not the decisive question that is asked by the wise so often? >As far as enlightenment bending the pendulum to one side forever, >that's exactly what I believe. Experience of duality doesn't change >at all. Why would it? If your interest in enlightenment is to change >your dualistic experience then, yes, I can understand your >consternation. The pendulum, however, only swings in the mind. The point at rest is in the middle and not at the extremes. The question is: what is beyond peace and violence? Any attempt to stop the pendulum is against nature. This is not the way of the wise. I do not seek to change it. It is not " in the mind " ... it is how mind itself works and functions... and therefor the pendulum is everything we perceive. Just try to stop inhaling and live with exhaling only... impossible! Now, can we ask: where is the problem? Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 In a message dated 2/21/2006 7:02:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Stefan " <s.petersilge Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) Mark, you say that you have no problem to accept duality... then... why do you deny it? And as far as understanding is concerned: the laws of duality are very strict and it is only your vivid wishful fantasy that believes one could bend it to any direction as pleased. Greetings Stefan One doesn't bend the rules of the dualistic dream. Rather, 'one' wakes up to Reality. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/21/2006 7:02:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " Stefan " <s.petersilge > Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) > > Mark, you say that you have no problem to accept duality... then... > why do you deny it? > > And as far as understanding is concerned: the laws of duality are very > strict and it is only your vivid wishful fantasy that believes one > could bend it to any direction as pleased. > > Greetings > Stefan > > > > One doesn't bend the rules of the dualistic dream. Rather, 'one' wakes up to > Reality. > > Phil > Phil, if you got it, say it clearly or are you interested in giving fuel to a vivid wishful fantasy? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , " bigwaaba " <bigwaaba wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 2/21/2006 7:02:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > > Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) > > > > Mark, you say that you have no problem to accept duality... then... > > why do you deny it? > > > > And as far as understanding is concerned: the laws of duality are > very > > strict and it is only your vivid wishful fantasy that believes one > > could bend it to any direction as pleased. > > > > Greetings > > Stefan > > > > > > > > One doesn't bend the rules of the dualistic dream. Rather, 'one' > wakes up to > > Reality. > > > > Phil > > > > Phil, if you got it, say it clearly > or are you interested in giving fuel to a vivid wishful fantasy? > > are you the one who is making the rules in here.....in what some people should believe in.....and in what they shoudn't? are you the one who judge people and opinions......with same manners like it happen in the society ....regulated by endless laws......because the " evolution " of people is not evoluated enough...? means, are you the one who can't accept any different " views " than your own....? are you the one who is missing some peace?....(i remind the subject in which you seem to be lost) Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: >P: A quality is an attribute or trait or character (according to my >funk & wagnals). Must this be applied to an object? Can divinity >have an attribute? Can a feeling have a characteristic? These are >not objects. Dear Phil. When you say " divinity is peaceful " then the quality " peaceful " is an attribute of " divinity " . This is duality in action. But meaningful use of language cannot be non-dual. >The wise don't feel the need to deny the reality of suffering with >mental concepts. Nor do I (although I dont call myself " wise " ...haha!). >P: Ultimate Reality is not the center point between the extremes of >duality because the duality itself is a perceptual illusion created >by mind. I would not use the word " ultimate reality " , why again an atribute? But basically I agree and I have never said otherwise. I wanted to show that some are using the extremes of the pendulum to describe non-duality. But this unfortunately means maintaining duality, deepening the illusion, the split. >One polarity of the duality is an illusion. In the relative, there is >not a substance called light and another substance called darkness. No, both polarities are illusions, conceptualizations. >Conceptually, the Absolute is love, joy and peace without the >QUALITY of unlove, unjoy and unpeace. The uncola versions are >dualistic creations of mind only, which has the nasty habbit of >perceiving lack. Every atribute is " one side of the coin " . To associate one side with the absolute means maintaining duality. Like any conceptualization. >P: You're clearly talking about the relative illusion. What's not >clear is why you keep coming back to it when the discussion has been >about nonduality, liberation and enlightenment. Maybe I should ask >you if you believe in any of those things. Yes, of course I talk about the relative. Just like you. I try to show how your language and beliefs are relative and that there is no understanding through beliefs. Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/21/2006 7:02:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " Stefan " <s.petersilge > Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) > > Mark, you say that you have no problem to accept duality... then... > why do you deny it? > > And as far as understanding is concerned: the laws of duality are very > strict and it is only your vivid wishful fantasy that believes one > could bend it to any direction as pleased. > > Greetings > Stefan > > > > One doesn't bend the rules of the dualistic dream. Rather, 'one' wakes up to > Reality. > > Phil > Nope. There in no one asleep. The 'one' that wants to wake up...is the dream itself. 'Waking up'...is the annihilation of the one seeking it. It's all very simple. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 2/21/2006 7:02:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > > Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) > > > > Mark, you say that you have no problem to accept duality... then... > > why do you deny it? > > > > And as far as understanding is concerned: the laws of duality are very > > strict and it is only your vivid wishful fantasy that believes one > > could bend it to any direction as pleased. > > > > Greetings > > Stefan > > > > > > > > One doesn't bend the rules of the dualistic dream. Rather, 'one' wakes up to > > Reality. > > > > Phil > > > > > Nope. > > There in no one asleep. > > The 'one' that wants to wake up...is the dream itself. > > 'Waking up'...is the annihilation of the one seeking it. > > > It's all very simple. > > > toombaru > >>>> Hmmmm... that almost works, Toomb... but, hmmm.... not sold on it tho... Cuz the way you put it the annihilation is *of* one that isn't there? How can something that ain't there be annihilated? The real problem is with the expression, " Waking up. " That expression presupposes that there is someone or something (in your version) that is transformed. Tell me Toomb, what is transformed in this Waking Up process/event? Perhaps it is just that your terms aren't quite clear. Could you clear them up a bit? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 2/21/2006 7:02:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > > > Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) > > > > > > Mark, you say that you have no problem to accept duality... then... > > > why do you deny it? > > > > > > And as far as understanding is concerned: the laws of duality are > very > > > strict and it is only your vivid wishful fantasy that believes one > > > could bend it to any direction as pleased. > > > > > > Greetings > > > Stefan > > > > > > > > > > > > One doesn't bend the rules of the dualistic dream. Rather, 'one' > wakes up to > > > Reality. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > There in no one asleep. > > > > The 'one' that wants to wake up...is the dream itself. > > > > 'Waking up'...is the annihilation of the one seeking it. > > > > > > It's all very simple. > > > > > > toombaru > > > >>>> > > Hmmmm... that almost works, Toomb... > but, hmmm.... > > not sold on it tho... > > Cuz the way you put it the annihilation is *of* one > that isn't there? > > How can something that ain't there be annihilated? > > The real problem is with the expression, " Waking up. " > That expression presupposes that there is someone > or something (in your version) that is transformed. > > Tell me Toomb, what is transformed in this Waking Up > process/event? > > Perhaps it is just that your terms aren't quite clear. > Could you clear them up a bit? > > > Bill > Is a shadow 'transformed' in the light of the sun? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , " billrishel " <illusyn wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 2/21/2006 7:02:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > > > " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > > > Re: everything Is....fine (Peace) > > > > > > Mark, you say that you have no problem to accept duality... then... > > > why do you deny it? > > > > > > And as far as understanding is concerned: the laws of duality are > very > > > strict and it is only your vivid wishful fantasy that believes one > > > could bend it to any direction as pleased. > > > > > > Greetings > > > Stefan > > > > > > > > > > > > One doesn't bend the rules of the dualistic dream. Rather, 'one' > wakes up to > > > Reality. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > There in no one asleep. > > > > The 'one' that wants to wake up...is the dream itself. > > > > 'Waking up'...is the annihilation of the one seeking it. > > > > > > It's all very simple. > > > > > > toombaru > > > >>>> > > Hmmmm... that almost works, Toomb... > but, hmmm.... > > not sold on it tho... > > Cuz the way you put it the annihilation is *of* one > that isn't there? Ok.....How about... The annihilation of the one that isn't there. Last night upon the stair I saw a little man that wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. Gee......I wish he'd go away. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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