Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > The problem is that it is all too simple!! You are right. Something I almost wrote in that post -- but didn't -- is that the utter simplicity is the stumbling block. Imagine not an iota of effort on your part. What would that be? Can you go for X minutes without an iota of effort? Would it be *hard* to do that Bill Good question Bill. Can one practise effortlessness for 10 minutes? (With no effort) Or do a simple task w/ no efforts? I can by being very attentive, I mean VERY VERY attentive, but that seems to call on my full attention and isn`t that an effort? I`m going to " try " ?? that and get back to you. Patricia > _________________________ Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 > > Patricia: > > The problem is that it is all too simple!! > > You are right. Something I almost wrote in > that post -- but didn't -- is that the > utter simplicity is the stumbling block. > > Imagine not an iota of effort on your part. > What would that be? > > Can you go for X minutes without an iota > of effort? Would it be *hard* to do that > > > Bill > Good question Bill. > Can one practise effortlessness for 10 minutes? > (With no effort) > Or do a simple task w/ no efforts? > I can by being very attentive, I mean VERY VERY > attentive, > but that seems to call on my full attention and isn`t > that an effort? > I`m going to " try " ?? that and get back to you. > Patricia ~~~~~~~~~ This can become a very interesting avenue of investigation. Some things to consider: * what tells you that effort is going on? For example, if I pick up a heavy weight, then ostensibly there is an effort in doing that. But that is not the kind of effort we are talking about. * What is the relation between effort and " allowing " ? In other words, rather than " trying " to not effort, what if there is a simple allowing of *whatever*? Notice that the notion of " trying " doesn't really come in with allowing, as trying to allow doesn't really make sense. * This kind of investigation could clarify some issues around attention. Consider attention in terms of " soft focus " . And consider that if attention entails effort then perhaps that is a misunderstanding of attention. What is attention without effort? Here's Krishnamurti talking about non-effort and attention: Have you ever sat very silently, not with your attention fixed on anything, not making an effort to concentrate, but with the mind very quiet, really still? Then you hear everything, don't you? You hear the far off noises as well as those that are nearer and those that are very close by, the immediate sounds—which means really that you are listening to everything. Your mind is not confined to one narrow little channel. If you can listen in this way, listen with ease, without strain, you will find an extraordinary change taking place within you, a change which comes without your volition, without your asking; and in that change there is great beauty and depth of insight. The Book of Life, Chapter: January 1 Bill Note: to get the pdf of the Book of Life: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bol/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 --- billrishel <illusyn a écrit : > > Patricia: > > The problem is that it is all too simple!! > > You are right. Something I almost wrote in > that post -- but didn't -- is that the > utter simplicity is the stumbling block. > > Imagine not an iota of effort on your part. > What would that be? > > Can you go for X minutes without an iota > of effort? Would it be *hard* to do that > > > Bill > Good question Bill. > Can one practise effortlessness for 10 minutes? > (With no effort) > Or do a simple task w/ no efforts? > I can by being very attentive, I mean VERY VERY > attentive, > but that seems to call on my full attention and isn`t > that an effort? > I`m going to " try " ?? that and get back to you. > Patricia ~~~~~~~~~ This can become a very interesting avenue of investigation. Some things to consider: * what tells you that effort is going on? For example, if I pick up a heavy weight, then ostensibly there is an effort in doing that. But that is not the kind of effort we are talking about. * What is the relation between effort and " allowing " ? In other words, rather than " trying " to not effort, what if there is a simple allowing of *whatever*? Notice that the notion of " trying " doesn't really come in with allowing, as trying to allow doesn't really make sense. * This kind of investigation could clarify some issues around attention. Consider attention in terms of " soft focus " . And consider that if attention entails effort then perhaps that is a misunderstanding of attention. What is attention without effort? Here's Krishnamurti talking about non-effort and attention: Have you ever sat very silently, not with your attention fixed on anything, not making an effort to concentrate, but with the mind very quiet, really still? Then you hear everything, don't you? You hear the far off noises as well as those that are nearer and those that are very close by, the immediate sounds—which means really that you are listening to everything. Your mind is not confined to one narrow little channel. If you can listen in this way, listen with ease, without strain, you will find an extraordinary change taking place within you, a change which comes without your volition, without your asking; and in that change there is great beauty and depth of insight. The Book of Life, Chapter: January 1 Bill Thank-you Bill and K., very nice! Patricia Note: to get the pdf of the Book of Life: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bol/ ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 In a message dated 2/21/2006 1:55:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: effortlessness (Bill) Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > The problem is that it is all too simple!! You are right. Something I almost wrote in that post -- but didn't -- is that the utter simplicity is the stumbling block. Imagine not an iota of effort on your part. What would that be? Can you go for X minutes without an iota of effort? Would it be *hard* to do that Bill Good question Bill. Can one practise effortlessness for 10 minutes? (With no effort) Or do a simple task w/ no efforts? I can by being very attentive, I mean VERY VERY attentive, but that seems to call on my full attention and isn`t that an effort? I`m going to " try " ?? that and get back to you. Patricia To me, such things can't actually be practiced, for obvious reasons, but the intention amounts to a focus of consciousness which may lead to an experiential understanding of why it is believed effort must be expended to begin with. It's not very useful to draw battle lines in the mind, which is what we do when we expend effort to try to be effortless or choose to think and then try to stop thinking or struggle and choose to surrender. This creates resistance, which is what needs to stop. Conscious choice is an illusion, especially when applied to mind dynamics. What's required is an exploration of why we feel effort, thinking, struggle is necessary. Until mind comes to a different conclusion, these things will continue. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 What's required is an exploration of why we feel effort, thinking, struggle is necessary. Until mind comes to a different conclusion, these things will continue. >> There are many provisional paths. There is no optimal path. It is like clothes. It depends on what suits one. Bill Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/21/2006 1:55:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > OConnor Patricia <gdtige > RE: effortlessness (Bill) > > > > > > Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia > <gdtige@> wrote: > > > > The problem is that it is all too simple!! > > You are right. Something I almost wrote in > that post -- but didn't -- is that the > utter simplicity is the stumbling block. > > Imagine not an iota of effort on your part. > What would that be? > > Can you go for X minutes without an iota > of effort? Would it be *hard* to do that > > > Bill > Good question Bill. > Can one practise effortlessness for 10 minutes? > (With no effort) > Or do a simple task w/ no efforts? > I can by being very attentive, I mean VERY VERY > attentive, > but that seems to call on my full attention and isn`t > that an effort? > I`m going to " try " ?? that and get back to you. > Patricia > > > > To me, such things can't actually be practiced, for obvious reasons, but the > intention amounts to a focus of consciousness which may lead to an > experiential understanding of why it is believed effort must be expended to begin with. > > It's not very useful to draw battle lines in the mind, which is what we do > when we expend effort to try to be effortless or choose to think and then try > to stop thinking or struggle and choose to surrender. This creates resistance, > which is what needs to stop. > > Conscious choice is an illusion, especially when applied to mind dynamics. > What's required is an exploration of why we feel effort, thinking, struggle is > necessary. Until mind comes to a different conclusion, these things will > continue. > > Phil > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 In a message dated 2/22/2006 2:01:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " billrishel " <illusyn Re: effortlessness (Bill) What's required is an exploration of why we feel effort, thinking, struggle is necessary. Until mind comes to a different conclusion, these things will continue. >> There are many provisional paths. There is no optimal path. It is like clothes. It depends on what suits one. Bill Yes, I believe you're correct about that. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/22/2006 2:01:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " billrishel " <illusyn > Re: effortlessness (Bill) > > What's required is an exploration of why we feel effort, thinking, > struggle is necessary. Until mind comes to a different conclusion, > these things will continue. > >> > > There are many provisional paths. > > There is no optimal path. > > It is like clothes. > It depends on what suits one. > > > Bill > There are many escape plans being hatched......for the prison whose walls are constructed solely out of escape plans. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 2/22/2006 2:01:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " billrishel " <illusyn@> > > Re: effortlessness (Bill) > > > > What's required is an exploration of why we feel effort, thinking, > > struggle is necessary. Until mind comes to a different conclusion, > > these things will continue. > > >> > > > > There are many provisional paths. > > > > There is no optimal path. > > > > It is like clothes. > > It depends on what suits one. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > There are many escape plans being hatched......for the prison whose walls are constructed > solely out of escape plans. > > > toombaru > but.......but what should we do,,,,oooo,,,ooooo?...you ask. Old toomaru looks at the floor...and smiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 2/22/2006 2:01:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " billrishel " <illusyn@> > > Re: effortlessness (Bill) > > > > What's required is an exploration of why we feel effort, thinking, > > struggle is necessary. Until mind comes to a different conclusion, > > these things will continue. > > >> > > > > There are many provisional paths. > > > > There is no optimal path. > > > > It is like clothes. > > It depends on what suits one. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > There are many escape plans being hatched......for the prison whose walls are constructed > solely out of escape plans. > > > toombaru > Yes, and it is the doodles on the margins of those escape plans that are the most interesting! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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