Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Meth, You can answer this questions all yourself. But be careful not to confuse yourself, stay simple. Werner Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <roderickjons wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@> wrote: > > > > > > On Feb 18, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Nisargadatta wrote: > > > > > " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > Re: dualism is not actually experienced > > > > > > Phil, > > > > > > 1) > > > The experience and the experiencer don't dissolve in one, because > > > there is no experiencer. > > If there is no experiencer then where is the experience? Does it not > make more sense to say " there is no experience? " > > > > > > > 2) > > > There is no dualistic epxerience because you cannot feel cold and > hot > > > or have day and night at the time. > > > > > What is cold and hot if not some arbitrary comparison with a > theoretical mean? If someone says a room's temperature is hot, then > that is in comparison to what they consider normal – and could it not > be seen as cool by another (let say if that person had just arrived > from a warmer climate, or was suffering from a fever). But how can it > be cool and hot at the same time? > > > > 3) > > > There is only the flow of appearances or the flow of contents of > > > consciousness and that flow is non-dualistic. > > > > > Doesn't this flow imply a change of one appearance into another? > Surely this cannot be non-dualistic? > > > > 4) > > > Dualism exists only throught memory. You feel cold and you > rememeber > > > warmth. > > Where does memory come from? Was it created before dualism? > > Methusalum > > > > > > Werner > > > > P: Wow! Can't be said clearer than that! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Werner, Werner, Thanks for your confidence, but I do not have the wits to answer them myself. I am attracted to Nisargaddata's wisdom in " I am " ; but don't remember him saying that there is no experiencer -- just that it could not be defined in terms of anything else. It transcends the physical and mental and so on. Meth Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Meth, > > You can answer this questions all yourself. But be careful not to > confuse yourself, stay simple. > > Werner > > > > Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <roderickjons@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Feb 18, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Nisargadatta wrote: > > > > > > > " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > > Re: dualism is not actually experienced > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > The experience and the experiencer don't dissolve in one, > because > > > > there is no experiencer. > > > > If there is no experiencer then where is the experience? Does it > not > > make more sense to say " there is no experience? " > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > There is no dualistic epxerience because you cannot feel cold > and > > hot > > > > or have day and night at the time. > > > > > > > > What is cold and hot if not some arbitrary comparison with a > > theoretical mean? If someone says a room's temperature is hot, then > > that is in comparison to what they consider normal – and could it > not > > be seen as cool by another (let say if that person had just arrived > > from a warmer climate, or was suffering from a fever). But how can > it > > be cool and hot at the same time? > > > > > > 3) > > > > There is only the flow of appearances or the flow of contents of > > > > consciousness and that flow is non-dualistic. > > > > > > > > Doesn't this flow imply a change of one appearance into another? > > Surely this cannot be non-dualistic? > > > > > > 4) > > > > Dualism exists only throught memory. You feel cold and you > > rememeber > > > > warmth. > > > > Where does memory come from? Was it created before dualism? > > > > Methusalum > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > P: Wow! Can't be said clearer than that! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Hi Meth, My impression is that you are a bit confused, or more precise: You confuse yourself. Allow me to suggest in addition to read J. Krishnamurti. Reading him is very beneficial for orderly thinking. I mean that serious, no joking, it is a tip. Bill too has recommended him. You must develop some kind of sensibility when thinkig starts to confuse you and instantly stop it. I do that too. Werner Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <methusalum wrote: > > Werner, > > Werner, > > Thanks for your confidence, but I do not have the wits to answer them > myself. > > I am attracted to Nisargaddata's wisdom in " I am " ; but don't remember > him saying that there is no experiencer -- just that it could not be > defined in terms of anything else. It transcends the physical and > mental and so on. > > Meth > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Meth, > > > > You can answer this questions all yourself. But be careful not to > > confuse yourself, stay simple. > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <roderickjons@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 18, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Nisargadatta > wrote: > > > > > > > > > " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > > > Re: dualism is not actually experienced > > > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > The experience and the experiencer don't dissolve in one, > > because > > > > > there is no experiencer. > > > > > > If there is no experiencer then where is the experience? Does it > > not > > > make more sense to say " there is no experience? " > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > There is no dualistic epxerience because you cannot feel cold > > and > > > hot > > > > > or have day and night at the time. > > > > > > > > > > > What is cold and hot if not some arbitrary comparison with a > > > theoretical mean? If someone says a room's temperature is hot, > then > > > that is in comparison to what they consider normal – and could it > > not > > > be seen as cool by another (let say if that person had just > arrived > > > from a warmer climate, or was suffering from a fever). But how > can > > it > > > be cool and hot at the same time? > > > > > > > > 3) > > > > > There is only the flow of appearances or the flow of contents > of > > > > > consciousness and that flow is non-dualistic. > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't this flow imply a change of one appearance into another? > > > Surely this cannot be non-dualistic? > > > > > > > > 4) > > > > > Dualism exists only throught memory. You feel cold and you > > > rememeber > > > > > warmth. > > > > > > Where does memory come from? Was it created before dualism? > > > > > > Methusalum > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > P: Wow! Can't be said clearer than that! > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Werner You're an observant man and you may be right, so I will not offer any defence for my meaningless chatter. All was confusion, and then mind came and arranged things. I'll try and get some of his material. Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > Hi Meth, > > My impression is that you are a bit confused, or more precise: You > confuse yourself. > > Allow me to suggest in addition to read J. Krishnamurti. Reading him > is very beneficial for orderly thinking. I mean that serious, no > joking, it is a tip. Bill too has recommended him. > > You must develop some kind of sensibility when thinkig starts to > confuse you and instantly stop it. I do that too. > > Werner > > > Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <methusalum@> > wrote: > > > > Werner, > > > > Werner, > > > > Thanks for your confidence, but I do not have the wits to answer > them > > myself. > > > > I am attracted to Nisargaddata's wisdom in " I am " ; but don't > remember > > him saying that there is no experiencer -- just that it could not > be > > defined in terms of anything else. It transcends the physical and > > mental and so on. > > > > Meth > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Meth, > > > > > > You can answer this questions all yourself. But be careful not to > > > confuse yourself, stay simple. > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <roderickjons@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 18, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Nisargadatta > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > > > > Re: dualism is not actually experienced > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > The experience and the experiencer don't dissolve in one, > > > because > > > > > > there is no experiencer. > > > > > > > > If there is no experiencer then where is the experience? Does > it > > > not > > > > make more sense to say " there is no experience? " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > There is no dualistic epxerience because you cannot feel > cold > > > and > > > > hot > > > > > > or have day and night at the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is cold and hot if not some arbitrary comparison with a > > > > theoretical mean? If someone says a room's temperature is hot, > > then > > > > that is in comparison to what they consider normal – and could > it > > > not > > > > be seen as cool by another (let say if that person had just > > arrived > > > > from a warmer climate, or was suffering from a fever). But how > > can > > > it > > > > be cool and hot at the same time? > > > > > > > > > > 3) > > > > > > There is only the flow of appearances or the flow of > contents > > of > > > > > > consciousness and that flow is non-dualistic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't this flow imply a change of one appearance into > another? > > > > Surely this cannot be non-dualistic? > > > > > > > > > > 4) > > > > > > Dualism exists only throught memory. You feel cold and you > > > > rememeber > > > > > > warmth. > > > > > > > > Where does memory come from? Was it created before dualism? > > > > > > > > Methusalum > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > P: Wow! Can't be said clearer than that! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Hmm, Meth, I am not that observant, but I have learnt about my own way getting confused by thinking. If you are interested, here is a link to download all Jiddu Krishnamurti books: http://tuljo.store20.com/krishnamurti/index.html Werner Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <methusalum wrote: > > Werner > > You're an observant man and you may be right, so I will not offer any > defence for my meaningless chatter. > > All was confusion, and then mind came and arranged things. > > I'll try and get some of his material. > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Meth, > > > > My impression is that you are a bit confused, or more precise: You > > confuse yourself. > > > > Allow me to suggest in addition to read J. Krishnamurti. Reading > him > > is very beneficial for orderly thinking. I mean that serious, no > > joking, it is a tip. Bill too has recommended him. > > > > You must develop some kind of sensibility when thinkig starts to > > confuse you and instantly stop it. I do that too. > > > > Werner > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " methusalum " <methusalum@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Werner, > > > > > > Werner, > > > > > > Thanks for your confidence, but I do not have the wits to answer > > them > > > myself. > > > > > > I am attracted to Nisargaddata's wisdom in " I am " ; but don't > > remember > > > him saying that there is no experiencer -- just that it could not > > be > > > defined in terms of anything else. It transcends the physical and > > > mental and so on. > > > > > > Meth > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Meth, > > > > > > > > You can answer this questions all yourself. But be careful not > to > > > > confuse yourself, stay simple. > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " methusalum " > <roderickjons@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 18, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Nisargadatta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr@> > > > > > > > Re: dualism is not actually experienced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > The experience and the experiencer don't dissolve in one, > > > > because > > > > > > > there is no experiencer. > > > > > > > > > > If there is no experiencer then where is the experience? Does > > it > > > > not > > > > > make more sense to say " there is no experience? " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) > > > > > > > There is no dualistic epxerience because you cannot feel > > cold > > > > and > > > > > hot > > > > > > > or have day and night at the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is cold and hot if not some arbitrary comparison with a > > > > > theoretical mean? If someone says a room's temperature is > hot, > > > then > > > > > that is in comparison to what they consider normal – and > could > > it > > > > not > > > > > be seen as cool by another (let say if that person had just > > > arrived > > > > > from a warmer climate, or was suffering from a fever). But > how > > > can > > > > it > > > > > be cool and hot at the same time? > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) > > > > > > > There is only the flow of appearances or the flow of > > contents > > > of > > > > > > > consciousness and that flow is non-dualistic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't this flow imply a change of one appearance into > > another? > > > > > Surely this cannot be non-dualistic? > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) > > > > > > > Dualism exists only throught memory. You feel cold and > you > > > > > rememeber > > > > > > > warmth. > > > > > > > > > > Where does memory come from? Was it created before dualism? > > > > > > > > > > Methusalum > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > P: Wow! Can't be said clearer than that! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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