Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 An illusionist is one who produces illusory effects. An illusion seldom means non-existence, it means just a misplacement, a projection, misunderstanding or a misattribution. A perspective on a flat canvas, or the bending of the part of a ruler immersed in water, are common examples of illusionism. Spiritual illusionism is more difficult to detect because, usually, it's our own mind which creates the illusion. When we are sad the whole world looks drab, and sad; when we are cheerful the entire world looks happy. We are natural projectors. When we feel deep love, we feel that God is love; when we feel deep peace we think peace is eternal. And of course, some when feeling keenly aware think awareness is everything. Idealists are illusionist per excellence, they spray paint their perceptions over the universe, and claim there is no thing outside of that which they feel. Everything is spirit, God, or Self. Well, this boils down to saying, everything is everything. It really doesn't matter what you call this everything. Call it matter, and it wouldn't change. Except, that self projection would go out of the window, and is this little self they try to expand and protect. Illusionism and idealism is, in the last instance, all about self protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Nisargadatta , Pete S <pedsie4 wrote: > > An illusionist is one who produces illusory effects. > An illusion seldom means non-existence, it means > just a misplacement, a projection, misunderstanding > or a misattribution. > > A perspective on a flat canvas, or the bending of the > part of a ruler immersed in water, are common > examples of illusionism. Spiritual illusionism is more > difficult to detect because, usually, it's our own mind > which creates the illusion. > > When we are sad the whole world looks drab, and sad; > when we are cheerful the entire world looks happy. We > are natural projectors. When we feel deep love, we feel > that God is love; when we feel deep peace we think > peace is eternal. And of course, some when feeling > keenly aware think awareness is everything. > > Idealists are illusionist per excellence, they spray paint > their perceptions over the universe, and claim there is > no thing outside of that which they feel. Everything is > spirit, God, or Self. Well, this boils down to saying, > everything is everything. It really doesn't matter what > you call this everything. Call it matter, and it wouldn't > change. Except, that self projection would go out of > the window, and is this little self they try to expand > and protect. Illusionism and idealism is, in the last > instance, all about self protection. what is there to protect, Pete?.... what is it what you are trying to protect here....?.....your concept about " idealism " ....?.....your concept about " illusionists " ....?.... your concept about " protection " ....? you appear here....everyday....and try hard to protect another of your " concepts " ....... nothing but concepts.......after all and then? proud of this your constructions of the mind? proud of this your achievements of " definitions " ? of your " understandings " of the all the miseries that appear in the eyes of this your miserable spiritual heart? .....i know endless people like you.....for some reason, they can't get a quite mind.......they can't meditate.....and go behind " words " and " understandings " ..... and then they invent constantly new excuses....to don't go any step further i do meditation....daily......i practice spirituality i have a spiritual Master who is over all this crap of " definitions " i'm in touch with Self...... but all this....is what is unknow for you seem so......for some reason....... you reject constantly your own inner Self....your own real being...... and it appear again and again...in your brain and heart.....knocking on the door........which you don't open.....for some reason i think this reason is simply ignorance.....there is nothing special about it Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 An illusion [is]...a projection, Illusionism is ... all about self protection. >>>> [self] projection for self protection! So there is a *self* after all? Well, no, of course not. So what is projecting...? To infer something that is projecting is reification. So we should *not* speak of *self* projection for *self* protection. There's no such *thing*. Hmmm... So then, if there is no " anything " doing the projection, how can the projection have a *purpose* of protection? It can't. So what is this " projection " phenomenon really? Has anyone ever seen one? (I mean the phenomenon) It would be too trite to suggest that the notion of projection is a projection. And also self contradictory. Let's go back to the text: > When we are sad the whole world looks drab, and sad; Hmmmm... The problem begins with the proposition, " We are sad. " Putting it in the first person (which is presumably how it originates) that is: " I am sad. " That's the real problem. " I am sad, " is an interpretation of experience. A statement of the form, " I am ____ " is an interpretation of experience. Start with a non-starter and you can only end up in the ditch. Forget the projection thing. Rather take a look at the " I am ____ " whenever it crops up. And then put your best forgetting cap on, cuz you really need to forget *that*, cuz that is the root illusion. Bill AdvaitaToZen , Pete S <pedsie4 wrote: > > An illusionist is one who produces illusory effects. > An illusion seldom means non-existence, it means > just a misplacement, a projection, misunderstanding > or a misattribution. > > A perspective on a flat canvas, or the bending of the > part of a ruler immersed in water, are common > examples of illusionism. Spiritual illusionism is more > difficult to detect because, usually, it's our own mind > which creates the illusion. > > When we are sad the whole world looks drab, and sad; > when we are cheerful the entire world looks happy. We > are natural projectors. When we feel deep love, we feel > that God is love; when we feel deep peace we think > peace is eternal. And of course, some when feeling > keenly aware think awareness is everything. > > Idealists are illusionist per excellence, they spray paint > their perceptions over the universe, and claim there is > no thing outside of that which they feel. Everything is > spirit, God, or Self. Well, this boils down to saying, > everything is everything. It really doesn't matter what > you call this everything. Call it matter, and it wouldn't > change. Except, that self projection would go out of > the window, and is this little self they try to expand > and protect. Illusionism and idealism is, in the last > instance, all about self protection. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 > P: Illusion is part of nature, it's here to > stay, and realization or not it must be deal with. > >>> > B: I heartily disagree. > Illusion is just that, illusion. It is a mis-taking of > what is. It serves no real value. > > > P: Ha, ha! " I heartily disagree " is illusion, > It is the sense of " I Am " returning. You seem to believe that use of the pronoun 'I' is evidence of belief in " I am " . You are not sincere in that, I AM sure... ;p And besides you evade the point being made. The point of discussion was the utility of the illusory sense of " I am " . You said there is a utility. I said there is not. Can we discuss this in earnest, or do you want to end it with a jest? The notion that illusion is somehow " real " is a fairly popular one on this list. I challenge that notion. Just because the mirage looks ever so much like water does not add one molecule of H2O to it. It is not water at all. And just because " I " seems ever so real doesn't mean there is anything to it. I already know you agree that the 'I' is unreal. So we are then down to the " seeming " . No 'I', but a strong seeming. So can we then say that at least the *seeming* is real, that while the seeming is illusory, it is, at least very real in its " seemingness " ? No, we cannot say that without bringing in time. If we stick to the present, to Now, there is no possibility of any realness to the seeming, for the seeming itself evaporates in complete immersion in Now. And in complete immersion in Now not only is " illusion " of no use, it doesn't even exist. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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