Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 > A very tired Patricia w/ dragon blood on her sword of justice. Love it! When you raise your hand to turn on a lamp, is it a premeditated action? Or does it happen as if by itself? I'll assume you say the latter. Notice that there are a whole lot of things that happen like that. Getting a drink of water at a fountain. Signing your name. In fact most of the time in a day is paved with such " automatic " behaviors. (Are you still with me?) So what is different about when, as you say in your words: " ...I resist and try to change the situation " ? From you description it seems you are not talking about an isolated incident, but rather a *pattern* that repeats again and again. Is there perhaps a bit of " automatism " in that too? If getting a drink can be such a fluid automatic act, or writing a sentence, why not an act of struggle as well? Indeed, perhaps the very disturbing nature of such scenarios for you (if I am not reading too much in) is a feeling of being " trapped " , of not-really-having-volition even when ostensibly there is choice going on. What do you think? Bill > >< What's required is an exploration of why we feel > effort, thinking, > struggle is > > necessary. > > ..................................................... > When in front of obstacles to clarity, unfair > behaviors, stupidity, I balk, I resist and try to > change the situation. it creates so much tension. > again and again, I try to change a world that isn`t > mine, where fairness doesn`t exist..maybe all this > tension is the surest way to...get out of the way. > it is the school of life. > The thing is, I seem to know all that, and I fall in > that trap way too easily. > A very tired Patricia w/ dragon blood on her sword of justice. > > > > > > > _________________________ > Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. > Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 --- billrishel <illusyn a écrit : > A very tired Patricia w/ dragon blood on her sword of justice. Love it! When you raise your hand to turn on a lamp, is it a premeditated action? Or does it happen as if by itself? I'll assume you say the latter. Notice that there are a whole lot of things that happen like that. Getting a drink of water at a fountain. Signing your name. In fact most of the time in a day is paved with such " automatic " behaviors. (Are you still with me?) So what is different about when, as you say in your words: " ...I resist and try to change the situation " ? From you description it seems you are not talking about an isolated incident, but rather a *pattern* that repeats again and again. Is there perhaps a bit of " automatism " in that too? If getting a drink can be such a fluid automatic act, or writing a sentence, why not an act of struggle as well? Indeed, perhaps the very disturbing nature of such scenarios for you (if I am not reading too much in) is a feeling of being " trapped " , of not-really-having-volition even when ostensibly there is choice going on. What do you think? Bill Yes and no Bill. I don`t think that my trying to staigthen what I perceive crooked is of an automatic compulsion..like taking a drink..It seems more of a misunderstanding. Also assumptions that I know best for others, And seeing others suffer has called for action.. I`ve read and understood enough of our posts here to know the futility of all that. I am grasping the all idea of concepts, finally. Maybe I just need time to digest it all ? Refind (again?!!) a lost path.. Patricia > _________________________ Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Maybe I just need time to digest it all ? ~~~ Yes, just let it all be for a while. Maybe even forever! Bill Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > > --- billrishel <illusyn a écrit : > > > > > A very tired Patricia w/ dragon blood on her sword > of justice. > Love it! > > When you raise your hand to turn on a lamp, is it > a premeditated action? Or does it happen as if by > itself? > > I'll assume you say the latter. > Notice that there are a whole lot of things that > happen like that. Getting a drink of water at a > fountain. Signing your name. In fact most of the > time in a day is paved with such " automatic " > behaviors. (Are you still with me?) > > So what is different about when, as you say in > your words: " ...I resist and try to change the > situation " ? > > From you description it seems you are not talking > about an isolated incident, but rather a *pattern* > that repeats again and again. Is there perhaps a > bit of " automatism " in that too? > > If getting a drink can be such a fluid automatic > act, or writing a sentence, why not an act of > struggle as well? Indeed, perhaps the very disturbing > nature of such scenarios for you (if I am not reading > too much in) is a feeling of being " trapped " , of > not-really-having-volition even when ostensibly > there is choice going on. > > What do you think? > > Bill > > > Yes and no Bill. > I don`t think that my trying to staigthen what I > perceive crooked is of an automatic compulsion..like > taking a drink..It seems more of a misunderstanding. > Also assumptions that I know best for others, > And seeing others suffer has called for action.. > I`ve read and understood enough of our posts here to > know the futility of all that. > I am grasping the all idea of concepts, finally. > Maybe I just need time to digest it all ? > Refind (again?!!) a lost path.. > Patricia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________ > Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. > Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 ........threading the path of least resistance....... <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> Did I like that.. It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance in place. I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own thoughts I don`t have to resist. ...Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be at work!! What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific sense of it, could go without a watch for days and predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare talents.. Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for about half an hour... So I walked to work, got there a little late..in hiking gear.. and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day indeed. Patricia _________________________ Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: effortlessness ........threading the path of least resistance....... <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> Did I like that.. It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance in place. I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own thoughts I don`t have to resist. ...Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be at work!! What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific sense of it, could go without a watch for days and predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare talents.. Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for about half an hour... So I walked to work, got there a little late..in hiking gear.. and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day indeed. Patricia That's pretty cool. I don't wanna discourage you from continuing along those lines, cause it's fun to watch. The problem is that the vigilance is the effort expended to be effortless. This amounts to what I call duality tipping; the attempt to tilt the dualistic balance defined by the nature of experience. Perhaps you just demonstrated the difficulty in attempting this. We can create any sort of a focus we want and that focus aligns with a 'field' within consciousness. This field contains both dualistic polarities of our focus and we inevitably bring both into our experience. The focus on peace will bring peace for a time, followed by something that is decidedly not peace. A focus created in meditations will bring results because we don't always meditate, and the opposite of our focus will occur. The stronger the experience, the stronger the polar opposite will be experienced. The focus on effortlessness will bring just that, to be followed by it's opposite, such as being late for work and stuck on the coast highway and having to hike to work, making effort an experiential reality. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 --- ADHHUB a écrit : In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: effortlessness ........threading the path of least resistance....... <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> Did I like that.. It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance in place. I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own thoughts I don`t have to resist. ...Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be at work!! What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific sense of it, could go without a watch for days and predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare talents.. Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for about half an hour... So I walked to work, got there a little late..in hiking gear.. and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day indeed. Patricia That's pretty cool. I don't wanna discourage you from continuing along those lines, cause it's fun to watch. The problem is that the vigilance is the effort expended to be effortless. This amounts to what I call duality tipping; the attempt to tilt the dualistic balance defined by the nature of experience. Perhaps you just demonstrated the difficulty in attempting this. We can create any sort of a focus we want and that focus aligns with a 'field' within consciousness. This field contains both dualistic polarities of our focus and we inevitably bring both into our experience. The focus on peace will bring peace for a time, followed by something that is decidedly not peace. A focus created in meditations will bring results because we don't always meditate, and the opposite of our focus will occur. The stronger the experience, the stronger the polar opposite will be experienced. The focus on effortlessness will bring just that, to be followed by it's opposite, such as being late for work and stuck on the coast highway and having to hike to work, making effort an experiential reality. Phil interesting...but am not sure that attention is part of consciousness. Watching anything coming my way, from within or without, doesn`t feel like a fragment of consciousness..but a whole undivided movement of attentive watching. ?? what d`yu think Phil? Patricia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > OConnor Patricia <gdtige > RE: effortlessness > > .......threading the path of least resistance....... > <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> > Did I like that.. > > It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance > in place. > I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my > favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own > thoughts I don`t have to resist. > ..Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and > a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the > clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be > at work!! > What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific > sense of it, could go without a watch for days and > predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare > talents.. > Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it > is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for > about half an hour... > So I walked to work, got there a little late..in > hiking gear.. > and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day > indeed. > Patricia > > > > That's pretty cool. I don't wanna discourage you from continuing along those > lines, cause it's fun to watch. The problem is that the vigilance is the > effort expended to be effortless. This amounts to what I call duality tipping; > the attempt to tilt the dualistic balance defined by the nature of experience. > Perhaps you just demonstrated the difficulty in attempting this. > > We can create any sort of a focus we want and that focus aligns with a > 'field' within consciousness. This field contains both dualistic polarities of our > focus and we inevitably bring both into our experience. The focus on peace > will bring peace for a time, followed by something that is decidedly not peace. > A focus created in meditations will bring results because we don't always > meditate, and the opposite of our focus will occur. The stronger the > experience, the stronger the polar opposite will be experienced. The focus on > effortlessness will bring just that, to be followed by it's opposite, such as being > late for work and stuck on the coast highway and having to hike to work, making > effort an experiential reality. > > Phil ~~~~~~~~~ I depends on what is meant by vigilance. How can one be sure what she means? Perhaps she just means alert and attentive. Also, the dropping of effort will happen in stages. There are always more subtle " effortings " to be dropped further on. Everyone is on their own path moving in their own way. There is no need to be concerned about anyone. We all can relax. It is all -- always -- OK. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 In a message dated 2/25/2006 1:52:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige Re: effortlessness --- ADHHUB a écrit : In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: effortlessness ........threading the path of least resistance....... <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> Did I like that.. It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance in place. I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own thoughts I don`t have to resist. ...Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be at work!! What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific sense of it, could go without a watch for days and predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare talents.. Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for about half an hour... So I walked to work, got there a little late..in hiking gear.. and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day indeed. Patricia That's pretty cool. I don't wanna discourage you from continuing along those lines, cause it's fun to watch. The problem is that the vigilance is the effort expended to be effortless. This amounts to what I call duality tipping; the attempt to tilt the dualistic balance defined by the nature of experience. Perhaps you just demonstrated the difficulty in attempting this. We can create any sort of a focus we want and that focus aligns with a 'field' within consciousness. This field contains both dualistic polarities of our focus and we inevitably bring both into our experience. The focus on peace will bring peace for a time, followed by something that is decidedly not peace. A focus created in meditations will bring results because we don't always meditate, and the opposite of our focus will occur. The stronger the experience, the stronger the polar opposite will be experienced. The focus on effortlessness will bring just that, to be followed by it's opposite, such as being late for work and stuck on the coast highway and having to hike to work, making effort an experiential reality. Phil interesting...but am not sure that attention is part of consciousness. Watching anything coming my way, from within or without, doesn`t feel like a fragment of consciousness..but a whole undivided movement of attentive watching. ?? what d`yu think Phil? Patricia Hmmm, I understand what you mean by " attentive watching " , but this attention doesn't 'do' anything, it has no purpose, no motive, not desire or goal. It's entirely passive and receptive, effortless, as you imply. I didn't use the word 'attention' because I don't see a focus on effortlessness as passive attention. It's a focus of consciousness which is creative rather than passive. A creative focus creates experience rather than noticing anything through passive attention. The trap, of course, is that, if there is no focus on effortlessness, effort occurs as a natural function of mind in the attempt to maintain it's reality. If a genuine 'attentive watching' occurs, this is the effortlessness that you seek, but the seeking of it devours the effortlessness. At least that's the trap I find myself in. How does one cause effortlessness to occur? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 In a message dated 2/25/2006 1:52:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " billrishel " <illusyn Re: effortlessness Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > OConnor Patricia <gdtige > RE: effortlessness > > .......threading the path of least resistance....... > <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> > Did I like that.. > > It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance > in place. > I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my > favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own > thoughts I don`t have to resist. > ..Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and > a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the > clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be > at work!! > What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific > sense of it, could go without a watch for days and > predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare > talents.. > Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it > is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for > about half an hour... > So I walked to work, got there a little late..in > hiking gear.. > and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day > indeed. > Patricia > > > > That's pretty cool. I don't wanna discourage you from continuing along those > lines, cause it's fun to watch. The problem is that the vigilance is the > effort expended to be effortless. This amounts to what I call duality tipping; > the attempt to tilt the dualistic balance defined by the nature of experience. > Perhaps you just demonstrated the difficulty in attempting this. > > We can create any sort of a focus we want and that focus aligns with a > 'field' within consciousness. This field contains both dualistic polarities of our > focus and we inevitably bring both into our experience. The focus on peace > will bring peace for a time, followed by something that is decidedly not peace. > A focus created in meditations will bring results because we don't always > meditate, and the opposite of our focus will occur. The stronger the > experience, the stronger the polar opposite will be experienced. The focus on > effortlessness will bring just that, to be followed by it's opposite, such as being > late for work and stuck on the coast highway and having to hike to work, making > effort an experiential reality. > > Phil ~~~~~~~~~ I depends on what is meant by vigilance. How can one be sure what she means? Perhaps she just means alert and attentive. Also, the dropping of effort will happen in stages. There are always more subtle " effortings " to be dropped further on. Everyone is on their own path moving in their own way. There is no need to be concerned about anyone. We all can relax. It is all -- always -- OK. Bill She has an intention, a purpose, a goal. She made this clear from the start. This is more than alert and attentive. Are you concerned about someone, Bill? If so, feel free to jabber about it. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 --- ADHHUB a écrit : In a message dated 2/25/2006 1:52:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige Re: effortlessness --- ADHHUB a écrit : In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: effortlessness ........threading the path of least resistance....... <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> Did I like that.. It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance in place. I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own thoughts I don`t have to resist. ...Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be at work!! What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific sense of it, could go without a watch for days and predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare talents.. Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for about half an hour... So I walked to work, got there a little late..in hiking gear.. and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day indeed. Patricia That's pretty cool. I don't wanna discourage you from continuing along those lines, cause it's fun to watch. The problem is that the vigilance is the effort expended to be effortless. This amounts to what I call duality tipping; the attempt to tilt the dualistic balance defined by the nature of experience. Perhaps you just demonstrated the difficulty in attempting this. We can create any sort of a focus we want and that focus aligns with a 'field' within consciousness. This field contains both dualistic polarities of our focus and we inevitably bring both into our experience. The focus on peace will bring peace for a time, followed by something that is decidedly not peace. A focus created in meditations will bring results because we don't always meditate, and the opposite of our focus will occur. The stronger the experience, the stronger the polar opposite will be experienced. The focus on effortlessness will bring just that, to be followed by it's opposite, such as being late for work and stuck on the coast highway and having to hike to work, making effort an experiential reality. Phil interesting...but am not sure that attention is part of consciousness. Watching anything coming my way, from within or without, doesn`t feel like a fragment of consciousness..but a whole undivided movement of attentive watching. ?? what d`yu think Phil? Patricia Hmmm, I understand what you mean by " attentive watching " , but this attention doesn't 'do' anything, it has no purpose, no motive, not desire or goal. It's entirely passive and receptive, effortless, as you imply. I didn't use the word 'attention' because I don't see a focus on effortlessness as passive attention. It's a focus of consciousness which is creative rather than passive. A creative focus creates experience rather than noticing anything through passive attention. The trap, of course, is that, if there is no focus on effortlessness, effort occurs as a natural function of mind in the attempt to maintain it's reality. If a genuine 'attentive watching' occurs, this is the effortlessness that you seek, but the seeking of it devours the effortlessness. At least that's the trap I find myself in. How does one cause effortlessness to occur? Phil effortlesness seems to occur when there is a refusal of engaging in tensions. What are tensions? they can be so very subtle and it takes a very sensitive being to be able to see most of them doesn`t it? There is also a tremendous focus on <being> and somehow that seems to work hand in hand with effortlesness. Do you see that? That is what is going on at the moment at any case... Happy w-end to you , Patricia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 In a message dated 2/25/2006 3:24:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige Re: effortlessness --- ADHHUB a écrit : In a message dated 2/25/2006 1:52:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige Re: effortlessness --- ADHHUB a écrit : In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: effortlessness ........threading the path of least resistance....... <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> Did I like that.. It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance in place. I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own thoughts I don`t have to resist. ...Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be at work!! What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific sense of it, could go without a watch for days and predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare talents.. Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for about half an hour... So I walked to work, got there a little late..in hiking gear.. and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day indeed. Patricia That's pretty cool. I don't wanna discourage you from continuing along those lines, cause it's fun to watch. The problem is that the vigilance is the effort expended to be effortless. This amounts to what I call duality tipping; the attempt to tilt the dualistic balance defined by the nature of experience. Perhaps you just demonstrated the difficulty in attempting this. We can create any sort of a focus we want and that focus aligns with a 'field' within consciousness. This field contains both dualistic polarities of our focus and we inevitably bring both into our experience. The focus on peace will bring peace for a time, followed by something that is decidedly not peace. A focus created in meditations will bring results because we don't always meditate, and the opposite of our focus will occur. The stronger the experience, the stronger the polar opposite will be experienced. The focus on effortlessness will bring just that, to be followed by it's opposite, such as being late for work and stuck on the coast highway and having to hike to work, making effort an experiential reality. Phil interesting...but am not sure that attention is part of consciousness. Watching anything coming my way, from within or without, doesn`t feel like a fragment of consciousness..but a whole undivided movement of attentive watching. ?? what d`yu think Phil? Patricia Hmmm, I understand what you mean by " attentive watching " , but this attention doesn't 'do' anything, it has no purpose, no motive, not desire or goal. It's entirely passive and receptive, effortless, as you imply. I didn't use the word 'attention' because I don't see a focus on effortlessness as passive attention. It's a focus of consciousness which is creative rather than passive. A creative focus creates experience rather than noticing anything through passive attention. The trap, of course, is that, if there is no focus on effortlessness, effort occurs as a natural function of mind in the attempt to maintain it's reality. If a genuine 'attentive watching' occurs, this is the effortlessness that you seek, but the seeking of it devours the effortlessness. At least that's the trap I find myself in. How does one cause effortlessness to occur? Phil effortlesness seems to occur when there is a refusal of engaging in tensions. What are tensions? they can be so very subtle and it takes a very sensitive being to be able to see most of them doesn`t it? There is also a tremendous focus on <being> and somehow that seems to work hand in hand with effortlesness. Do you see that? That is what is going on at the moment at any case... Happy w-end to you , Patricia I really am looking for some way to see you creating a nondualistic focus, but I'm not seeing it. The phrase " A refusal of engaging in tensions " is very gentle, but how does it differ from resisting what is occurring? Possibly you'll agree that resisting anything is not advantageous? I see addressing the tensions as far more productive and, yes, they are very subtle because they are mostly unconscious. Bringing them to conscious awareness often dissolves them because the attempt to keep them hidden is the source of the tension itself. I can't really know exactly what you mean by a " tremendous focus on being " but it sounds like a lot of effort. Being is not something that can actually be focussed on, so what that generally means is focussing away from doing, away from thinking. While these too are gentle phrases, they are also efforts. Mental focus, as in meditation, has value, but perhaps not the value we imagine. Such a focus becomes habitual, and often leads to inspiring experiences, but there is a downside. They consist of effort, however subtle. They result in dualistic experience which brings it's opposite into our experience, and they reinforce the idea that there is an individual who has chosen to do this focussing. I don't mean to say this shouldn't be done, just giving my perception of what is occurring. I meditate myself and I often carry a focus of honoring and valuing peace as I go about my day. The experience of a deep peace has been wonderful, but it's opposite always joins my experience which gives me the opportunity to surrender/accept. I'm under no delusions that I'm able to tip the balance of duality in my experience. If this were possible, there would be no need to transcend it, eh? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/25/2006 1:52:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > OConnor Patricia <gdtige > Re: effortlessness > > > --- ADHHUB a écrit : > > > > > In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific > Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > OConnor Patricia <gdtige > RE: effortlessness > > .......threading the path of least resistance....... > <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> > Did I like that.. > > It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance > in place. > I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my > favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own > thoughts I don`t have to resist. > ..Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and > a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the > clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be > at work!! > What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific > sense of it, could go without a watch for days and > predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare > talents.. > Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it > is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for > about half an hour... > So I walked to work, got there a little late..in > hiking gear.. > and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day > indeed. > Patricia > > > > That's pretty cool. I don't wanna discourage you from > continuing along those > lines, cause it's fun to watch. The problem is that > the vigilance is the > effort expended to be effortless. This amounts to what > I call duality tipping; > the attempt to tilt the dualistic balance defined by > the nature of experience. > Perhaps you just demonstrated the difficulty in > attempting this. > > We can create any sort of a focus we want and that > focus aligns with a > 'field' within consciousness. This field contains both > dualistic polarities of our > focus and we inevitably bring both into our > experience. The focus on peace > will bring peace for a time, followed by something > that is decidedly not peace. > A focus created in meditations will bring results > because we don't always > meditate, and the opposite of our focus will occur. > The stronger the > experience, the stronger the polar opposite will be > experienced. The focus on > effortlessness will bring just that, to be followed > by it's opposite, such as being > late for work and stuck on the coast highway and > having to hike to work, making > effort an experiential reality. > > Phil > > interesting...but am not sure that attention is part > of consciousness. > Watching anything coming my way, from within or > without, doesn`t feel like a fragment of > consciousness..but a whole undivided movement of > attentive watching. > ?? what d`yu think Phil? > Patricia > > > > Hmmm, I understand what you mean by " attentive watching " , but this attention > doesn't 'do' anything, it has no purpose, no motive, not desire or goal. > It's entirely passive and receptive, effortless, as you imply. > > I didn't use the word 'attention' because I don't see a focus on > effortlessness as passive attention. It's a focus of consciousness which is creative > rather than passive. A creative focus creates experience rather than noticing > anything through passive attention. > > The trap, of course, is that, if there is no focus on effortlessness, effort > occurs as a natural function of mind in the attempt to maintain it's > reality. If a genuine 'attentive watching' occurs, this is the effortlessness that > you seek, but the seeking of it devours the effortlessness. At least that's > the trap I find myself in. How does one cause effortlessness to occur? > > Phil > Gee, Phil. Effortlessness is not *hard*! If you want to think about it from every angle then, yeah, *that's* hard. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/25/2006 1:52:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " billrishel " <illusyn > Re: effortlessness > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > OConnor Patricia <gdtige@> > > RE: effortlessness > > > > .......threading the path of least resistance....... > > <the greatest Way is voidness of opposition.> > > Did I like that.. > > > > It feels just right, all tensions gone and vigilance > > in place. > > I went for a huge walk in the forest, pick-up my > > favorite mushrooms, and observed that even to my own > > thoughts I don`t have to resist. > > ..Got home starving, took a chocolate chip cookie and > > a glass of milk to hold on until lunch...watched the > > clock..oh no! horror.. it says 1 o`clock, time to be > > at work!! > > What happened to time?? I used to have a terrific > > sense of it, could go without a watch for days and > > predict time pretty accurately, one of my rare > > talents.. > > Jumped in the car, got on highway one...What the...it > > is blocked for the tour of California...delay run for > > about half an hour... > > So I walked to work, got there a little late..in > > hiking gear.. > > and stayed w/ it, relaxed and watching. A good day > > indeed. > > Patricia > > > > > > > > That's pretty cool. I don't wanna discourage you from continuing > along those > > lines, cause it's fun to watch. The problem is that the vigilance is > the > > effort expended to be effortless. This amounts to what I call > duality tipping; > > the attempt to tilt the dualistic balance defined by the nature of > experience. > > Perhaps you just demonstrated the difficulty in attempting this. > > > > We can create any sort of a focus we want and that focus aligns with a > > 'field' within consciousness. This field contains both dualistic > polarities of our > > focus and we inevitably bring both into our experience. The focus on > peace > > will bring peace for a time, followed by something that is decidedly > not peace. > > A focus created in meditations will bring results because we don't > always > > meditate, and the opposite of our focus will occur. The stronger the > > experience, the stronger the polar opposite will be experienced. > The focus on > > effortlessness will bring just that, to be followed by it's > opposite, such as being > > late for work and stuck on the coast highway and having to hike to > work, making > > effort an experiential reality. > > > > Phil > ~~~~~~~~~ > > I depends on what is meant by vigilance. > How can one be sure what she means? > Perhaps she just means alert and attentive. > > Also, the dropping of effort will happen in > stages. There are always more subtle " effortings " > to be dropped further on. > > Everyone is on their own path moving in their > own way. There is no need to be concerned about > anyone. > > We all can relax. > > It is all -- always -- OK. > > Bill > > > > > She has an intention, a purpose, a goal. She made this clear from the start. > This is more than alert and attentive. > > Are you concerned about someone, Bill? If so, feel free to jabber about it. > > > Phil > You are on a roll!!!! Well, I was a little concerned about you... but it seems to have passed..... whew! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 In a message dated 2/26/2006 4:32:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " billrishel " <illusyn Re: effortlessness > Hmmm, I understand what you mean by " attentive watching " , but this attention > doesn't 'do' anything, it has no purpose, no motive, not desire or goal. > It's entirely passive and receptive, effortless, as you imply. > > I didn't use the word 'attention' because I don't see a focus on > effortlessness as passive attention. It's a focus of consciousness which is creative > rather than passive. A creative focus creates experience rather than noticing > anything through passive attention. > > The trap, of course, is that, if there is no focus on effortlessness, effort > occurs as a natural function of mind in the attempt to maintain it's > reality. If a genuine 'attentive watching' occurs, this is the effortlessness that > you seek, but the seeking of it devours the effortlessness. At least that's > the trap I find myself in. How does one cause effortlessness to occur? > > Phil > Gee, Phil. Effortlessness is not *hard*! If you want to think about it from every angle then, yeah, *that's* hard. Bill That's my point, Bill. If effortlessness is effortless, it can't involve effort. It's not a mental game. Effortlessness is not a thing that can be done any more than surrender can be done. It's only ego that thinks it can jump and stand still at the same time. Mind translates everything into a doing. There is no doing that can cause being to occur. This isn't the solution, it's the problem. The solution to mind will never be found in mind. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 In a message dated 2/26/2006 8:56:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " billrishel " <illusyn Re: effortlessness > I depends on what is meant by vigilance. > How can one be sure what she means? > Perhaps she just means alert and attentive. > > Also, the dropping of effort will happen in > stages. There are always more subtle " effortings " > to be dropped further on. > > Everyone is on their own path moving in their > own way. There is no need to be concerned about > anyone. > > We all can relax. > > It is all -- always -- OK. > > Bill > > > > > She has an intention, a purpose, a goal. She made this clear from the start. > This is more than alert and attentive. > > Are you concerned about someone, Bill? If so, feel free to jabber about it. > > > Phil > You are on a roll!!!! Well, I was a little concerned about you... but it seems to have passed..... whew! Bill Whew! What a relief! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/26/2006 4:32:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " billrishel " <illusyn > Re: effortlessness > > > > Hmmm, I understand what you mean by " attentive watching " , but this > attention > > doesn't 'do' anything, it has no purpose, no motive, not desire or > goal. > > It's entirely passive and receptive, effortless, as you imply. > > > > I didn't use the word 'attention' because I don't see a focus on > > effortlessness as passive attention. It's a focus of consciousness > which is creative > > rather than passive. A creative focus creates experience rather > than noticing > > anything through passive attention. > > > > The trap, of course, is that, if there is no focus on > effortlessness, effort > > occurs as a natural function of mind in the attempt to maintain > it's > > reality. If a genuine 'attentive watching' occurs, this is the > effortlessness that > > you seek, but the seeking of it devours the effortlessness. At > least that's > > the trap I find myself in. How does one cause effortlessness to > occur? > > > > Phil > > > > Gee, Phil. Effortlessness is not *hard*! > If you want to think about it from every angle > then, yeah, *that's* hard. > > Bill > > > That's my point, Bill. If effortlessness is effortless, it can't involve > effort. It's not a mental game. Effortlessness is not a thing that can be done > any more than surrender can be done. It's only ego that thinks it can jump and > stand still at the same time. Mind translates everything into a doing. There > is no doing that can cause being to occur. This isn't the solution, it's the > problem. The solution to mind will never be found in mind. > > Phil There are little flags that can up to indicate that it is good to *stop* and simply be present. But there is no absolute about this stuff. If a person is conditioned to being driven by an intense agenda then stopping and simply being present a few times a day is a step. In other words it is relative. Seems to me that Patricia was making a transition to being more present, less driven. It seemed to me (strictly my impression) you were bent on beating her up about what she was " doing " . It seemed to me your comments (my view) were overly intrusive. Hence my remarks. I guess I'm suggesting easing up, lightening up. And keep in mind that there is no such thing as " being right " . Not with respect to nondual stuff. Bill PS: Did you see my post to this list about Krishnamurti re effort? Seems to me that says it all pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Thank-you Bill and Phil, all was helpful, in deepening an age long sensibilitie about effortlessness. After reading the Krishnamurti post I was thinking that the kind of effortlesness he describes : it is so revolutionary, you cannot talk about that to just anybody. He basically denies the sense of progress, the " getting better " of our psychologicall reality. It isn`t about getting better at all. It is about stopping one`s own expension...... making space....... and as there is no empty space, a sense of otherness starts prevailing. My biggest sense of effort had been to change the world and reach to poeple. I`ve changed on that subject. the deep alchemy that occurs when one is truly letting go with attention, without expectations of change, is bound to diffuse itself. I feel I am walking on a razor`s blade sometimes. Greetings, Patricia _________________________ Nouveau : téléphonez moins cher avec Messenger ! Découvez les tarifs exceptionnels pour appeler la France et l'international. Téléchargez sur http://fr.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Nisargadatta , OConnor Patricia <gdtige wrote: > > Thank-you Bill and Phil, all was helpful, in deepening > an age long sensibilitie about effortlessness. > After reading the Krishnamurti post I was thinking > that the kind of effortlesness he describes : it is so > revolutionary, you cannot talk about that to just > anybody. > He basically denies the sense of progress, the > " getting better " of our psychologicall reality. > It isn`t about getting better at all. > It is about stopping one`s own expension...... > making space....... > and as there is no empty space, > a sense of otherness starts prevailing. > My biggest sense of effort had been to change the > world and reach to poeple. I`ve changed on that > subject. the deep alchemy that occurs when one is > truly letting go with attention, without expectations > of change, is bound to diffuse itself. > I feel I am walking on a razor`s blade sometimes. > Greetings, > Patricia > > > You are a ripple......trying to do what you think the ocean wants. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 > Thank-you Bill and Phil, all was helpful, in deepening > an age long sensibilitie about effortlessness. > After reading the Krishnamurti post I was thinking > that the kind of effortlesness he describes : it is so > revolutionary, you cannot talk about that to just > anybody. > He basically denies the sense of progress, the > " getting better " of our psychologicall reality. > It isn`t about getting better at all. > It is about stopping one`s own expension...... > making space....... > and as there is no empty space, > a sense of otherness starts prevailing. > My biggest sense of effort had been to change the > world and reach to poeple. I`ve changed on that > subject. the deep alchemy that occurs when one is > truly letting go with attention, without expectations > of change, is bound to diffuse itself. > I feel I am walking on a razor`s blade sometimes. > Greetings, > Patricia You know Patricia, you're the champ here in my view. Because you put your heart on the line like none other here. Deep Bow. Re: > the deep alchemy that occurs when one is > truly letting go with attention, without expectations > of change, is bound to diffuse itself. I was sensing that " deep alchemy " in what you had written earlier. It doesn't matter what one's so-called " mind " is thinking once that alchemy kicks in. Re: > I feel I am walking on a razor`s blade sometimes. Sharp like a razor's edge is the path, The sages say, difficult to traverse. --- Death Instructing Nachiketa in the Katha (Word) Upanishad Re: > [Krishnamurti] basically denies the sense of progress, the > " getting better " of our psychologicall reality. That is key, in my view. The notion that one's life will improve through the spiritual path is what I like to call the " New Age Fallacy " . Nisargadatta emphasizes honesty, as when he says: M: Whatever name you give it: will, or steady purpose, or onepointedness of the mind, you come back to earnestness, sincerity, honesty. When you are in dead earnest, you bend every incident, every second of your life to your purpose. You do not waste time and energy on other things. You are totally dedicated, call it will, or love, or plain honesty. Just plain honesty. If there is complete honesty there cannot be any concern about outcome, yes? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 In a message dated 2/27/2006 3:09:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " billrishel " <illusyn Re: effortlessness Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/26/2006 4:32:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " billrishel " <illusyn > Re: effortlessness > > > > Hmmm, I understand what you mean by " attentive watching " , but this > attention > > doesn't 'do' anything, it has no purpose, no motive, not desire or > goal. > > It's entirely passive and receptive, effortless, as you imply. > > > > I didn't use the word 'attention' because I don't see a focus on > > effortlessness as passive attention. It's a focus of consciousness > which is creative > > rather than passive. A creative focus creates experience rather > than noticing > > anything through passive attention. > > > > The trap, of course, is that, if there is no focus on > effortlessness, effort > > occurs as a natural function of mind in the attempt to maintain > it's > > reality. If a genuine 'attentive watching' occurs, this is the > effortlessness that > > you seek, but the seeking of it devours the effortlessness. At > least that's > > the trap I find myself in. How does one cause effortlessness to > occur? > > > > Phil > > > > Gee, Phil. Effortlessness is not *hard*! > If you want to think about it from every angle > then, yeah, *that's* hard. > > Bill > > > That's my point, Bill. If effortlessness is effortless, it can't involve > effort. It's not a mental game. Effortlessness is not a thing that can be done > any more than surrender can be done. It's only ego that thinks it can jump and > stand still at the same time. Mind translates everything into a doing. There > is no doing that can cause being to occur. This isn't the solution, it's the > problem. The solution to mind will never be found in mind. > > Phil There are little flags that can up to indicate that it is good to *stop* and simply be present. But there is no absolute about this stuff. If a person is conditioned to being driven by an intense agenda then stopping and simply being present a few times a day is a step. In other words it is relative. Seems to me that Patricia was making a transition to being more present, less driven. It seemed to me (strictly my impression) you were bent on beating her up about what she was " doing " . It seemed to me your comments (my view) were overly intrusive. Hence my remarks. I guess I'm suggesting easing up, lightening up. And keep in mind that there is no such thing as " being right " . Not with respect to nondual stuff. Bill It seemed like Patricia and I were having a nice conversation. I don't know why my perspective should offend either of you, nor did I state the rightness of my opinion as opposed to that of others. Again, there seems to be something that has created struggle here for you, but I won't intrude. PS: Did you see my post to this list about Krishnamurti re effort? Seems to me that says it all pretty well. Yes, he did. In fact he says very much the same thing I did. Weren't you concerned that Patricia would feel " beat up " when she read that post? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 In a message dated 2/27/2006 8:37:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 17:15:03 +0100 (CET) OConnor Patricia <gdtige RE: Re: effortlessness Thank-you Bill and Phil, all was helpful, in deepening an age long sensibilitie about effortlessness. After reading the Krishnamurti post I was thinking that the kind of effortlesness he describes : it is so revolutionary, you cannot talk about that to just anybody. He basically denies the sense of progress, the " getting better " of our psychologicall reality. It isn`t about getting better at all. It is about stopping one`s own expension...... making space....... and as there is no empty space, a sense of otherness starts prevailing. My biggest sense of effort had been to change the world and reach to poeple. I`ve changed on that subject. the deep alchemy that occurs when one is truly letting go with attention, without expectations of change, is bound to diffuse itself. I feel I am walking on a razor`s blade sometimes. Greetings, Patricia I'm glad that you don't feel beat up on, Patricia. It looks to me as though you've had an excellent realization. Acceptance is not about causing anything to be acceptable. It's about accepting that which has always been unacceptable, and letting it be exactly what it is. Nothing outside or inside needs to change, it just needs to be accepted as it is, because it doesn't matter. It never mattered. It requires no effort for this to occur. Acceptance is the absence of effort. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > In a message dated 2/27/2006 3:09:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > " billrishel " <illusyn > Re: effortlessness > > Nisargadatta , ADHHUB@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 2/26/2006 4:32:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > Nisargadatta writes: > > > > " billrishel " <illusyn@> > > Re: effortlessness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, I understand what you mean by " attentive watching " , but > this > > attention > > > doesn't 'do' anything, it has no purpose, no motive, not desire > or > > goal. > > > It's entirely passive and receptive, effortless, as you imply. > > > > > > I didn't use the word 'attention' because I don't see a focus > on > > > effortlessness as passive attention. It's a focus of > consciousness > > which is creative > > > rather than passive. A creative focus creates experience rather > > than noticing > > > anything through passive attention. > > > > > > The trap, of course, is that, if there is no focus on > > effortlessness, effort > > > occurs as a natural function of mind in the attempt to maintain > > it's > > > reality. If a genuine 'attentive watching' occurs, this is the > > effortlessness that > > > you seek, but the seeking of it devours the effortlessness. At > > least that's > > > the trap I find myself in. How does one cause effortlessness to > > occur? > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > Gee, Phil. Effortlessness is not *hard*! > > If you want to think about it from every angle > > then, yeah, *that's* hard. > > > > Bill > > > > > > That's my point, Bill. If effortlessness is effortless, it can't > involve > > effort. It's not a mental game. Effortlessness is not a thing that > can be done > > any more than surrender can be done. It's only ego that thinks it > can jump and > > stand still at the same time. Mind translates everything into a > doing. There > > is no doing that can cause being to occur. This isn't the solution, > it's the > > problem. The solution to mind will never be found in mind. > > > > Phil > > There are little flags that can up to indicate > that it is good to *stop* and simply be present. > > But there is no absolute about this stuff. > If a person is conditioned to being driven > by an intense agenda then stopping and > simply being present a few times a day is > a step. > > In other words it is relative. > > Seems to me that Patricia was making a transition > to being more present, less driven. It seemed to > me (strictly my impression) you were bent on beating > her up about what she was " doing " . It seemed to me your > comments (my view) were overly intrusive. Hence my > remarks. I guess I'm suggesting easing up, lightening > up. > > And keep in mind that there is no such thing > as " being right " . Not with respect to nondual > stuff. > > > Bill > > > > > It seemed like Patricia and I were having a nice conversation. I don't know > why my perspective should offend either of you, nor did I state the rightness > of my opinion as opposed to that of others. Again, there seems to be > something that has created struggle here for you, but I won't intrude. > > > > > PS: Did you see my post to this list about Krishnamurti > re effort? Seems to me that says it all pretty well. > > > > Yes, he did. In fact he says very much the same thing I did. Weren't you > concerned that Patricia would feel " beat up " when she read that post? Quite the contrary. I expected she would find it very meaningful. But Krishnamurti's comments were not " pointed " with respect to one person. Your remarks to Patricia, on the other hand, seemed pointed and intrusive to me. But I *did* own my remarks as being just my impression/point-of-view. I just said what was up for me to say, as you did and do here again. No harm in any of that, yes? Again, " correctness " is never the point. Honesty always is. Bill > Phil > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:29:11 -0000 " billrishel " <illusyn Re: effortlessness In a message dated 2/28/2006 2:53:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: > It seemed like Patricia and I were having a nice conversation. I don't know > why my perspective should offend either of you, nor did I state the rightness > of my opinion as opposed to that of others. Again, there seems to be > something that has created struggle here for you, but I won't intrude. > > > > > PS: Did you see my post to this list about Krishnamurti > re effort? Seems to me that says it all pretty well. > > > > Yes, he did. In fact he says very much the same thing I did. Weren't you > concerned that Patricia would feel " beat up " when she read that post? Quite the contrary. I expected she would find it very meaningful. But Krishnamurti's comments were not " pointed " with respect to one person. Your remarks to Patricia, on the other hand, seemed pointed and intrusive to me. But I *did* own my remarks as being just my impression/point-of-view. I just said what was up for me to say, as you did and do here again. No harm in any of that, yes? Again, " correctness " is never the point. Honesty always is. Bill I have enough respect for Patricia to not insult her by assuming her ego needed to be massaged gently. It is assumed that the truth, whatever that might be for an individual, is at least slightly more important than playing patty-cake with ego. That goes for everyone on this list, BTW. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:29:11 -0000 > " billrishel " <illusyn > Re: effortlessness > > > > In a message dated 2/28/2006 2:53:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > > It seemed like Patricia and I were having a nice conversation. I > don't know > > why my perspective should offend either of you, nor did I state the > rightness > > of my opinion as opposed to that of others. Again, there seems to be > > something that has created struggle here for you, but I won't > intrude. > > > > > > > > > > PS: Did you see my post to this list about Krishnamurti > > re effort? Seems to me that says it all pretty well. > > > > > > > > Yes, he did. In fact he says very much the same thing I did. Weren't > you > > concerned that Patricia would feel " beat up " when she read that post? > > Quite the contrary. > I expected she would find it very meaningful. > > But Krishnamurti's comments were not " pointed " > with respect to one person. > > Your remarks to Patricia, on the other hand, > seemed pointed and intrusive to me. But I > *did* own my remarks as being just my > impression/point-of-view. I just said what > was up for me to say, as you did and do here > again. No harm in any of that, yes? > > Again, " correctness " is never the point. > Honesty always is. > > Bill > > > > I have enough respect for Patricia to not insult her by assuming her ego > needed to be massaged gently. It is assumed that the truth, whatever that might > be for an individual, is at least slightly more important than playing > patty-cake with ego. That goes for everyone on this list, BTW. > > Phil > You have misread what I was saying, Phil. But at this point the horse is quite dead. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 ...you did get my mail saying that all was helpful, there was never any feelings of intrusion...? After a difficult day yesterday, spent at the hospital w/ a youngster in unconsciousness, a family in turmoil, emergencie room so stuffy, full of electronics, no air... Quietly holding his hand, that poor damaged face... Effortlessness came as an outcome and a precious gift for all of us that evening. It is nothing on its own, it is the sweet honey of undivided attention, it comes all by itself, and pours its fragrance freely, it is so alive and so felt.. Effort is the disheveled child of divided attention. much love, Patricia --- billrishel <illusyn a écrit : Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: > > > Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:29:11 -0000 > " billrishel " <illusyn > Re: effortlessness > > > > In a message dated 2/28/2006 2:53:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Nisargadatta writes: > > > It seemed like Patricia and I were having a nice conversation. I > don't know > > why my perspective should offend either of you, nor did I state the > rightness > > of my opinion as opposed to that of others. Again, there seems to be > > something that has created struggle here for you, but I won't > intrude. > > > > > > > > > > PS: Did you see my post to this list about Krishnamurti > > re effort? Seems to me that says it all pretty well. > > > > > > > > Yes, he did. In fact he says very much the same thing I did. Weren't > you > > concerned that Patricia would feel " beat up " when she read that post? > > Quite the contrary. > I expected she would find it very meaningful. > > But Krishnamurti's comments were not " pointed " > with respect to one person. > > Your remarks to Patricia, on the other hand, > seemed pointed and intrusive to me. But I > *did* own my remarks as being just my > impression/point-of-view. I just said what > was up for me to say, as you did and do here > again. No harm in any of that, yes? > > Again, " correctness " is never the point. > Honesty always is. > > Bill > > > > I have enough respect for Patricia to not insult her by assuming her ego > needed to be massaged gently. It is assumed that the truth, whatever that might > be for an individual, is at least slightly more important than playing > patty-cake with ego. That goes for everyone on this list, BTW. > > Phil > You have misread what I was saying, Phil. But at this point the horse is quite dead. Bill ** If you do not wish to receive individual emails, to change your subscription, sign in with your ID and go to Edit My Groups: /mygroups?edit=1 Under the Message Delivery option, choose " No Email " for the Nisargadatta group and click on Save Changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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