Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 I wonder... When I see a mirage and I realize That it is a mirage Do I not still perceive the mirage? With the difference that now I know that it will not quench my thirst? When I see the rope and realize it is not a snake Is the rope not still there, unchanged With the difference that now I need not fear? When I see " I am " and realize It is not the center of experiencing Do I not still perceive " I am " With the difference that now It is itself another experience? Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > I wonder... > > When I see a mirage and I realize > That it is a mirage > Do I not still perceive the mirage? > With the difference that now > I know that it will not quench my thirst? > > When I see the rope and realize it is not a snake > Is the rope not still there, unchanged > With the difference that now > I need not fear? > > When I see " I am " and realize > It is not the center of experiencing > Do I not still perceive " I am " > With the difference that now > It is itself another experience? > > Stefan > When one sees the mirage for what it ....there is no mirage left....just light.....bouncing. 'You " can never see the 'I am. Anything that you can see....is not you. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > I wonder... > > > > When I see a mirage and I realize > > That it is a mirage > > Do I not still perceive the mirage? > > With the difference that now > > I know that it will not quench my thirst? > > > > When I see the rope and realize it is not a snake > > Is the rope not still there, unchanged > > With the difference that now > > I need not fear? > > > > When I see " I am " and realize > > It is not the center of experiencing > > Do I not still perceive " I am " > > With the difference that now > > It is itself another experience? > > > > Stefan > > > When one sees the mirage for what it ....there is no mirage left....just light.....bouncing. > > 'You " can never see the 'I am. > > Anything that you can see....is not you. > > toombaru Thanks for your attempt... I had viewed those examples as metaphors for conceptualizing (and I think " I am " is itself a concept). When I see the mirage I think " its water " . When I realize the illusion then I think " a mirage that looks like water " . The perspective has changed but the procedure is the same. Your suggestion is again another nuance: when I see the mirage as bouncing light then because I consider it looks like that. So, when I have realized that " I am " is merely my conceptualization the perspective has changed but the concept is still there. When you call for " Stefan " I will say " yes, thats me " . Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: >I wonder... > >When I see a mirage and I realize >That it is a mirage >Do I not still perceive the mirage? >With the difference that now >I know that it will not quench my thirst? >When I see the rope and realize it is not a snake >Is the rope not still there, unchanged >With the difference that now >I need not fear? >When I see " I am " and realize >It is not the center of experiencing >Do I not still perceive " I am " >With the difference that now >It is itself another experience? And when I realize That there is nothing seen But conceptualizations And when I consider That what I cannot see Cannot be seen Because it does not exist And when I finally give up To search for the Unknown Then there is no reference point anymore For " concept " and I might as well call it " What is " And relax into This. Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > > > I wonder... > > > > > > When I see a mirage and I realize > > > That it is a mirage > > > Do I not still perceive the mirage? > > > With the difference that now > > > I know that it will not quench my thirst? > > > > > > When I see the rope and realize it is not a snake > > > Is the rope not still there, unchanged > > > With the difference that now > > > I need not fear? > > > > > > When I see " I am " and realize > > > It is not the center of experiencing > > > Do I not still perceive " I am " > > > With the difference that now > > > It is itself another experience? > > > > > > Stefan > > > > > > When one sees the mirage for what it ....there is no mirage > left....just light.....bouncing. > > > > 'You " can never see the 'I am. > > > > Anything that you can see....is not you. > > > > toombaru > > > Thanks for your attempt... > > I had viewed those examples as metaphors for conceptualizing (and I > think " I am " is itself a concept). The totality of the I am is composed of the belief in the I am. The I am that believes that it is merely the I am is nothing other then the I am its self. When I see the mirage I think " its > water " . When I realize the illusion then I think " a mirage that looks > like water " . The perspective has changed but the procedure is the > same. Your suggestion is again another nuance: when I see the mirage > as bouncing light then because I consider it looks like that. Indeed.....it is not what the I am thinks it knows conceptually that breaks through and dissipates the hypnotic trance of identification....Nothing added to the phantom offers the suspension in the belief of its existence or non-existence. It is the understanding this most peculiar process that offers the ultimate medicine....that if taken......totally annihilates illusory sense of self. By saying that it is not......it.only seems to verify that it is. It can never see its self........because there isn't one. It is the one searching, The searcher can never find that which it has conceptualized as its goal..... > > So, when I have realized that " I am " is merely my conceptualization > the perspective has changed but the concept is still there. When you > call for " Stefan " I will say " yes, thats me " . > > Greetings > Stefan > The realization by the I am that it is the I am......is its death sentence. toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 And everything you cannot see is also not you. Werner Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> wrote: > > > > I wonder... > > > > When I see a mirage and I realize > > That it is a mirage > > Do I not still perceive the mirage? > > With the difference that now > > I know that it will not quench my thirst? > > > > When I see the rope and realize it is not a snake > > Is the rope not still there, unchanged > > With the difference that now > > I need not fear? > > > > When I see " I am " and realize > > It is not the center of experiencing > > Do I not still perceive " I am " > > With the difference that now > > It is itself another experience? > > > > Stefan > > > > > > When one sees the mirage for what it ....there is no mirage left....just light.....bouncing. > > 'You " can never see the 'I am. > > Anything that you can see....is not you. > > > > toombaru > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 [...] > It can never see its self........because there isn't one. > > It is the one searching <---- Yes. [...] > toombaru > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Stefan " <s.petersilge Mirage I wonder... When I see a mirage and I realize That it is a mirage Do I not still perceive the mirage? With the difference that now I know that it will not quench my thirst? When I see the rope and realize it is not a snake Is the rope not still there, unchanged With the difference that now I need not fear? When I see " I am " and realize It is not the center of experiencing Do I not still perceive " I am " With the difference that now It is itself another experience? Stefan Sure. There's a tendency to imagine that the ego realizes the Truth and that the illusion somehow must end because perception must follow this realization, but no ego ever awakened from the illusion. The experiential vehicle continues to be what it always was, which is simply a perceptive mechanism that thinks, feels and reacts. There is no 'movement' that occurs in the vehicle, it's the Self that moves it's focus from individuality to oneness (consciousness). This is a useful understanding because it applies to the function of acceptance within the illusion. There's a tendency to imagine that, if all is accepted, it will somehow change in such a way that it becomes acceptable. Nothing changes in the events of the world including the programmed remnants of ego, they simply cease to matter. The one who struggles does not cause anything to become acceptable, rather he simply moves himself away from the struggle and allows it to be what it is. Struggle will still occur because struggle is from ego and ego isn't going anywhere. It ceases to matter whether it occurs or not. One 'watches' the struggle occurring and allows it to be what it is. This is the true meaning of detachment and acceptance. Ego will remain at peace only as long as everyone behaves, and then it will react. Ego will never become immune. This reaction cannot be resisted, since this would be conscious struggle added to the programming of ego which is found to be unacceptable. It does not need to matter that this occurs. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 " toombaru2006 " <lastrain Re: Mirage In a message dated 2/23/2006 9:12:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: When one sees the mirage for what it ....there is no mirage left....just light.....bouncing toombaru A mirage doesn't cease to be a mirage just because you know what it is. It's still going to appear to be a body of water. In fact, it's when you don't know that it's a mirage that there will not seem to be a mirage. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: >The realization by the I am that it is the I am......is its death >sentence. Hi Toombaru. The " I am " cannot realize nor mistake anything. There is no mysterious entity that realizes. Realization, experiencing goes by itself. The sense " I am " is a conceptualization, nothing else. Easily recognized. It is not different from " my working-desk " . Without this concept I would not know whom you mean, when you are calling for " Stefan " . Conceptualizations are happening so that they can be seen. Only non-concepts possibly could be invisible, like the " I " in " I am " . But they are a myth. When it is realized that " I am " is conceptualization, then it is also realized that everything is conceptualization. When this is understood it is also understood that there is no reference point for " concept " . Then it can as well be said: everything is as is. The relaxation into what is can happen. Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: >Sure. There's a tendency to imagine that the ego realizes the Truth >and that the illusion somehow must end because perception must follow >this realization, but no ego ever awakened from the illusion. The >experiential vehicle continues to be what it always was, which is >simply a perceptive mechanism that thinks, feels and reacts. Yes, and the " ego " is nothing else but a concept spooking inside of consciousness along with everything else. >There is no 'movement' that occurs in the vehicle, it's the Self that >moves it's focus from individuality to oneness (consciousness). This >is a useful understanding because it applies to the function of >acceptance within the illusion. It might be useful for some... I think the mention of a " self " can also deepen the split between what is and what is desired. I would rather say: the focus is shifting by itself. Hmmm... maybe it can be said better. >There's a tendency to imagine that, if all is accepted, it will >somehow change in such a way that it becomes acceptable. Nothing >changes in the events of the world including the programmed remnants >of ego, they simply cease to matter. Very true. >The one who struggles does not cause anything to become acceptable, >rather he simply moves himself away from the struggle and allows it >to be what it is. Struggle will still occur because struggle is from >ego and ego isn't going anywhere. It ceases to matter whether it >occurs or not. One 'watches' the struggle occurring and allows it to >be what it is. This is the true meaning of detachment and acceptance. >Ego will remain at peace only as long as everyone behaves, and then >it will react. Ego will never become immune. This reaction cannot be >resisted, since this would be conscious struggle added to the >programming of ego which is found to be unacceptable. It does not >need to matter that this occurs. Same notion here. Greetings :-) Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > When one sees the mirage for what it ....there is no mirage > left....just light.....bouncing. > > > > 'You " can never see the 'I am. > > > > Anything that you can see....is not you. This is just another thought. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Werner Woehr " <wwoehr wrote: > > And everything you cannot see is also not you. > > Werner Just another thought. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Phil: > > > A mirage doesn't cease to be a mirage just because you know what it is. > Phil > > Is a rope able to change itself into a snake......and then back into a rope? The 'problem' lies in the conceptual perception, toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > >Phil: >A mirage doesn't cease to be a mirage just because you know what it is. Toomb: >Is a rope able to change itself into a snake......and then back into >a rope? > >The 'problem' lies in the conceptual perception, Toomb, the rope remains the rope just like the conception remains the conception, no matter if it is recognised as such or not. A mirage remains a mirage, no matter if it is perceived as water, mirage or light... it remains a conception. There is no such thing as " no-conception " . Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > >Phil: > >A mirage doesn't cease to be a mirage just because you know what it is. > > Toomb: > >Is a rope able to change itself into a snake......and then back into > >a rope? > > > >The 'problem' lies in the conceptual perception, > > Toomb, the rope remains the rope just like the conception remains the > conception, no matter if it is recognised as such or not. > > A mirage remains a mirage, no matter if it is perceived as water, > mirage or light... it remains a conception. > > There is no such thing as " no-conception " . > > Greetings > Stefan Yes there is. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 wrote: >>There is no such thing as " no-conception " . >> >>Greetings >>Stefan > > >Yes there is. > >Len Len, would you say that conception does exist? Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > wrote: > > > >>There is no such thing as " no-conception " . > >> > >>Greetings > >>Stefan > > > > > >Yes there is. > > > >Len > > Len, would you say that conception does exist? > > Greetings > Stefan Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > > wrote: > > > > > > >>There is no such thing as " no-conception " . > > >> > > >>Greetings > > >>Stefan > > > > > > > > >Yes there is. > > > > > >Len > > > > Len, would you say that conception does exist? > > > > Greetings > > Stefan > > > Yes. > What about the people in your dream last night?....Do they exist? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 wrote: > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > > wrote: > > > >>>There is no such thing as " no-conception " . > >>> > >>>Greetings > >>>Stefan > >> > >> > >>Yes there is. > >> > >>Len > > > >Len, would you say that conception does exist? > > > >Greetings > >Stefan > > > Yes. Hmmm... you know, if you would have said " no " my answer would have been that we are talking about the same thing. Language cannot be used non-conceptually, would you agree? Then, what you are referring to must be something unexpressable, even unthinkable. Greetings Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > > > wrote: > > > > > >>>There is no such thing as " no-conception " . > > >>> > > >>>Greetings > > >>>Stefan > > >> > > >> > > >>Yes there is. > > >> > > >>Len > > > > > >Len, would you say that conception does exist? > > > > > >Greetings > > >Stefan > > > > > > Yes. > > Hmmm... you know, if you would have said " no " my answer would have > been that we are talking about the same thing. > > Language cannot be used non-conceptually, would you agree? > > Then, what you are referring to must be something unexpressable, even > unthinkable. > > Greetings > Stefan > Nothing is unthinkable. (another good bumper sticker) toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 In a message dated 2/24/2006 9:06:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " Stefan " <s.petersilge Re: Mirage --- In Nisargadatta , ADHHUB wrote: >Sure. There's a tendency to imagine that the ego realizes the Truth >and that the illusion somehow must end because perception must follow >this realization, but no ego ever awakened from the illusion. The >experiential vehicle continues to be what it always was, which is >simply a perceptive mechanism that thinks, feels and reacts. Yes, and the " ego " is nothing else but a concept spooking inside of consciousness along with everything else. >There is no 'movement' that occurs in the vehicle, it's the Self that >moves it's focus from individuality to oneness (consciousness). This >is a useful understanding because it applies to the function of >acceptance within the illusion. It might be useful for some... I think the mention of a " self " can also deepen the split between what is and what is desired. I would rather say: the focus is shifting by itself. Hmmm... maybe it can be said better. Yeah, I use (S)elf to denote consciousness. Not human consciousness but the experiential aspect of Awareness. To me, it doesn't matter if we call it The Great Pterodactyl, but yes, it's important to recognize the ego self doesn't wake up to an individual Self. The illusion of individuality dies. I figure everybody knows that. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 In a message dated 2/24/2006 9:06:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, Nisargadatta writes: " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 Re: Mirage > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> > wrote: > > When one sees the mirage for what it ....there is no mirage > left....just light.....bouncing. > > > > 'You " can never see the 'I am. > > > > Anything that you can see....is not you. This is just another thought. Len Thanks for your thoughts, Len. Phil (Just a thought) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > > > wrote: > > > > > >>>There is no such thing as " no-conception " . > > >>> > > >>>Greetings > > >>>Stefan > > >> > > >> > > >>Yes there is. > > >> > > >>Len > > > > > >Len, would you say that conception does exist? > > > > > >Greetings > > >Stefan > > > > > > Yes. > > Hmmm... you know, if you would have said " no " my answer would have > been that we are talking about the same thing. > > Language cannot be used non-conceptually, would you agree? Yes. > Then, what you are referring to must be something unexpressable, even > unthinkable. I´m referring to direct perception, like for instance: stomach ache. Not the label we give to it, but the actual, perceivable thing. Len Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " <lissbon2002@> > > wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@> > > > wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " lissbon2002 " > <lissbon2002@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >>>There is no such thing as " no-conception " . > > > >>> > > > >>>Greetings > > > >>>Stefan > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>Yes there is. > > > >> > > > >>Len > > > > > > > >Len, would you say that conception does exist? > > > > > > > >Greetings > > > >Stefan > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > Hmmm... you know, if you would have said " no " my answer would have > > been that we are talking about the same thing. > > > > Language cannot be used non-conceptually, would you agree? > > > Yes. > > > > > > Then, what you are referring to must be something unexpressable, > even > > unthinkable. > > > > I´m referring to direct perception, like for instance: stomach ache. > Not the label we give to it, but the actual, perceivable thing. > > Len > Like.............a thing that would exist............even if there were not a word for it? toombaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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